Remembrance Sunday = PoPpY DaY

Voipjunkie

Manic Moran wrote: »

Well, I call myself an Irish soldier, albeit not one representing the government of Ireland. Just a soldier who happens to be Irish. This becomes quite evident as soon as I open my mouth. The Wild Geese are a long-standing tradition.



NTM

You are a US soldier who is also an Irish citizen which I am sure you would agree is a completely different thing to an Irish soldier that being someone who is in the Irish defence forces.

It is not an insult and in no way takes away or denies your Irishness it is merely a fact to call you an Irish Soldier would be misleading.


Being Irish and a Soldier is not the same thing as being an Irish Soldier

Mad Finn

Camelot wrote: »

Lost for words :cool:

Why are you lost for words? Do you doubt the veracity of my statement, or do you just think it's uncouth tof me to point out that so many of our countrymen were used to subjugate the colonies?

Here's a Who Wants To Be A Millionaire? type trivia question for you:

In which conflict was the highest number of Victoria Crosses awarded to men born in Ireland?

a) World War One

b) World War Two

c) The Boer War

d) The Indian Mutiny


Whaddya reckon?

LordSutch

Look again at Post#169 to see why I was lost for words . . .

thehighground

Camelot wrote: »

They certainly are/were IRISH > and thats the whole point of the Irish Poppy Appeal Fund.

There was even a documentary on RTE TV recently charting the lives of men from the Republic of Ireland (Cork, kerry, Wicklow, Dublin, etc) Irish men from all over the South who join the British Army every year.

And when they get old, the funds from the sale of Poppies in the Republic will go towards helping 'them' in their twilight years - which I think is great.

I just dont see anything wrong with that.

So the British Army just discards them - do they not get a pension like those resident in the UK?

That parade in Belfast today was just like one big British Army recruitment drive for cannon fodder for Iraq. Tell them they will be heroes and get a parade when they come back home.

And did I read somewhere that the British Army recruitment drive only yielded 24 recruits in the Republic over the last 18 months?

LordSutch

Nobody 'discards' anybody! but when you buy a Poppy (in the Republic) the money you donate helps support Irish war veterans who served with Irish regiments in the British Army and/or their widows.

And as regards the welcome Home parade in Belfast, I thought it was a Great event apart from the public being denied the 'RAF Fly Past' which would have been a wonderful spectacle & the icing on the cake.

Saw one of the Royal Irish Regiment being interviewed on the News last night - he was from Limerick.

Mad Finn

Camelot wrote: »

Saw one of the Royal Irish Regiment being interviewed on the News last night - he was from Limerick.

Big swinging Mickey. Many of the top Nazis weren't from Germany. Hitler was Austrian. So was Eichmann. Seyys-Inquart was Czech.

Two of the seven signatories of the Proclamation of the Irish Republic-Connolly and Clarke - were Brits.

Many of the "German" soldiers who committed the massacre at Oradour-sur-Glane in WWII were French. If you don't know what I'm talking about, get hold of the World at War DVD set and watch the first episode.

Do you think the French "remember with pride" those of their countrymen who served in the German army?

Ask them.

Fratton Fred

Mad Finn wrote: »

Big swinging Mickey. Many of the top Nazis weren't from Germany. Hitler was Austrian. So was Eichmann. Seyys-Inquart was Czech.

Two of the seven signatories of the Proclamation of the Irish Republic-Connolly and Clarke - were Brits.

Many of the "German" soldiers who committed the massacre at Oradour-sur-Glane in WWII were French. If you don't know what I'm talking about, get hold of the World at War DVD set and watch the first episode.

Do you think the French "remember with pride" those of their countrymen who served in the German army?

Ask them.

I do believe you have just conceded the arguement by invoking Godwin's law, or has that happened already?

LordSutch

Mad Finn wrote: »

Big swinging Mickey.

Yes indeed :rolleyes:

But it was still a Great event for the people of Belfast to welcome home the 'Royal Irish Regiment' to their 'Home City' - I still think it was a shame the fly past didnt take place.

Nodin

Camelot wrote: »

Yes indeed :rolleyes:

But it was still a Great event for the people of Belfast to welcome home the 'Royal Irish Regiment' to their 'Home City' - I still think it was a shame the fly past didnt take place.

And would you be as equally supportive of a Parade of Provos, commemorating the fallen of the armed struggle and the end of hostilities, complete with the appropriate flags and emblems....?

Mad Finn

Fratton Fred wrote: »

I do believe you have just conceded the arguement by invoking Godwin's law, or has that happened already?

Godwin's Law, my hole! This thread has been about how we commemorate Irishmen fighting the Germans since post no 1, not post 189.

Unless Camelot really has the balls to demand that we commemorate our countrymen who massacred Indian villages and slaughtered Africans with spears during the 19th century, which is actually a much truer representation of what Irishmen did in the British Army than our relatively minor contribution to it during the 20th.

You want to exclude wars against Germans from our discussion of Ireland's contribution to the British Army I'm all for it.

Bring it on.

Fratton Fred

Mad Finn wrote: »

Godwin's Law, my hole! This thread has been about how we commemorate Irishmen fighting the Germans since post no 1, not post 189.

Unless Camelot really has the balls to demand that we commemorate our countrymen who massacred Indian villages and slaughtered Africans with spears during the 19th century, which is actually a much truer representation of what Irishmen did in the British Army than our relatively minor contribution to it during the 20th.

You want to exclude wars against Germans from our discussion of Ireland's contribution to the British Army I'm all for it.

Bring it on.

I wouldn't argue with you there.

Do you not feel that a rememberence day is about those who died in conflict, therefore remembering those who died on both sides, including those massacred in India, or Hiroshima for that matter.

That is how I view it anyway.

I guess it is a personal thing, but I certainly don't feel any sort of glory on Rememberence Sunday.

getz

i am sure that if i had been to school in the republic and been brainwashed by the anti/british hate schooling i would not have wanted to buy a poppy either-[lets not talk about irishmen killing irishmen]-lets get real you are now part of europe there is no room for hate against a friendly country who takes 45% of your exports and and its citizens who have been contributing to the irish economy

Nodin

getz wrote: »

i am sure that if i had been to school in the republic and been brainwashed by the anti/british hate schooling

Ye see the problem with that concept there?

Dudess

Camelot wrote: »

I still think it was a shame the fly past didnt take place.

You've said that how many times now? Is there a particular reason why you're repeating it? You intended it to stir controversy but it didn't garner the outrage you had hoped for so you're gonna keep trying to draw attention to it perhaps...?

You're coming from an unusual position - an Irishman with an allegiance to the British crown. Fine, your prerogative - although it's baffling to me personally. And I think you know it's baffling to many (probably most) of us here yet you still post in a smug, "I know I'm going against the grain but I'll act like it's the norm" manner anyway.

If you made your position clear ("I'm Irish but also proud of my connection to Britain") instead of this faux taking for granted that everyone will understand where you're coming from and your sh1t-stirring "oh it's heartening to see Union flags hanging up for our boys" crap, you'd be taken a lot more seriously.

getz

as a irishman who will not buy a poppy because its{british} good luck to you--remember there will be germans -italians-turkish people in the graveyards in europe with poppy on respecting the dead --soldiers even though it was there people that these soldiers, who killed there country men-- but also remember it is your grandads uncles and family and fellow countrymen who died-respect your dead dont be a idiot all your life

thehighground

Camelot wrote: »

Nobody 'discards' anybody! but when you buy a Poppy (in the Republic) the money you donate helps support Irish war veterans who served with Irish regiments in the British Army and/or their widows.

If they are well looked after by the Government & People they served (the British Gov), would it not be better to donate the money collected to the war victims in Iraq & Afghanistan? Or indeed, donate funds to local charities instead.

And as regards the welcome Home parade in Belfast, I thought it was a Great event apart from the public being denied the 'RAF Fly Past' which would have been a wonderful spectacle & the icing on the cake.

Look on the bright side - the "Rule Brittania", "we are the people" singing would have been drowned out by an "RAF Fly Past".

Saw one of the Royal Irish Regiment being interviewed on the News last night - he was from Limerick.

Indeed, wonder how the many loyalist/BNP parade supporters would have reacted if they discovered that the Officer (i.e., the guy telling the locals what to do ) was from Limerick.

Camelot, you not worried about what that Officer from Limerick about there being good 'banter' between those from North & South - no doubt the local lads are going back to their families and telling them that the papists from the Free State don't actually eat their young.

PS - anyone notice that Roy Keane was probably the only suited premiership manager that didn't wear the poppy. His granny probably told him about the burning of Cork by the British Army (who would have been veterans of WW1).

Mad Finn

getz wrote: »

i am sure that if i had been to school in the republic and been brainwashed by the anti/british hate schooling i would not have wanted to buy a poppy either-[lets not talk about irishmen killing irishmen]-lets get real you are now part of europe there is no room for hate against a friendly country who takes 45% of your exports and and its citizens who have been contributing to the irish economy

If you had been to school in the republic then maybe you'd have a small clue what you're talking about.

If anything, our history was toned down certainly while the troubles were on.

Certainly nothing we are taught in Ireland begins to compare with the persistent culture of vilification against Germany that goes on in Britain, long after the First World War has slipped out of the living memory of all but a few centenarians and even as there is now a generation of pensioners in Britain who have no memory of the Second World War.

Think it might be time to move on?

oscarBravo

Dudess wrote: »

You've said that how many times now? Is there a particular reason why you're repeating it? You intended it to stir controversy but it didn't garner the outrage you had hoped for so you're gonna keep trying to draw attention to it perhaps...?

You're coming from an unusual position - an Irishman with an allegiance to the British crown. Fine, your prerogative - although it's baffling to me personally. And I think you know it's baffling to many (probably most) of us here yet you still post in a smug, "I know I'm going against the grain but I'll act like it's the norm" manner anyway.

If you made your position clear ("I'm Irish but also proud of my connection to Britain") instead of this faux taking for granted that everyone will understand where you're coming from and your sh1t-stirring "oh it's heartening to see Union flags hanging up for our boys" crap, you'd be taken a lot more seriously.

It's a contrarian viewpoint. This is a discussion forum, where contrarian viewpoints are allowed once they're expressed with civility. Let's keep it on-topic.

I'd expect better from a mod.


j/k

Dudess

Sorry oscarBravo, I'm not for one minute objecting to someone having a contrarian viewpoint, just when it's expressed in a manner designed to irk...

getz wrote: »

as a irishman who will not buy a poppy because its{british} good luck to you--remember there will be germans -italians-turkish people in the graveyards in europe with poppy on respecting the dead --soldiers even though it was there people that these soldiers, who killed there country men-- but also remember it is your grandads uncles and family and fellow countrymen who died-respect your dead dont be a idiot all your life

As an Irishwoman, I'd have no problem buying and wearing a poppy to respect the young men whose short lives were wasted and who endured so much suffering in that horrific war (not "Great" :rolleyes:) irrespective of what nationality they were.

I take issue though with people wearing the poppy in a jingoistic show of "that was some work by our boys what!" and as an excuse for misty-eyed waxing lyrical about "The 'Great' War" and how glorious it was for those fine young men to fight for king and country etc when it was nothing but four years plus of inconceivable suffering and tragedy and these young men were sent to their deaths by cynical bureaucrats.

Latchy

Which is why it's called rememberence sunday ,to remember those who died and the people who march year after year will be quick to point that out less anyone is under any illiusions it's a celebration of war .

Irlbo

Any Irish person who wears a poppy shame on you,hang your head,and dont give me all the 'my grandad died in the somme'' crap,mine actually did,and it wasnt to fight for glory of the crown,or to fight a greater evil,it was because he was broke,hungry and penniless,and had to feed his family,as did thousands of unfortunate Irishmen,its not a romantic moment in history,its a shameful error,that thousands of poor desperate Irishman were cannon fodder for the British Empire

Dudess

What about considering it as a mark of respect to your grandad and all the others like him so? That's certainly how I'd see it.

oscarBravo

Dudess wrote: »

What about considering it as a mark of respect to your grandad and all the others like him so? That's certainly how I'd see it.

That would involve conceding a fraction of an inch to the evil Brits. Not gonna happen, is it?

Poccington

Dudess wrote: »

What about considering it as a mark of respect to your grandad and all the others like him so? That's certainly how I'd see it.

Same here.

Dudess has made the most reasonable point so far(In my opinion anyway :P) Of course some people wear it to celebrate how "The old boys stuck it to those thugs for us Brits back home". Instead of flat out boycotting the wearing of a poppy because of people being so narrow minded why not wear it to remember the sacrifice of thousands of our own people? Those people that went over because for some it was a chance to earn some much needed money, some that went over at the promise of Home Rule being granted to us and for those who went over for what they believed to be a just cause and to defend a small nations freedom?

Regardless of the circumstances in which they went to the trenches, these men stepped up to the plate and into a situation that many, many people would never dream to encounter, they endured hardships that many will never endure in their lives and unfortunately thousands paid the ultimate price for their sacrifice. These people deserve to be held in highest regard by normal folk and their sacrifice should be honoured, unfortunately not enough is done to honour it which is a shame as a time will come when no more of the survivors of that War will walk on this Earth. It will be a sad day when it comes.

LordSutch

Dudess wrote: »

You've said that how many times now? Is there a particular reason why you're repeating it? You intended it to stir controversy but it didn't garner the outrage you had hoped for so you're gonna keep trying to draw attention to it perhaps...?

I have mentioned the Flypast not taking place exactly twice in previous posts!

Dudess wrote: »

You're coming from an unusual position - an Irishman with an allegiance to the British crown. Fine, your prerogative - although it's baffling to me personally. And I think you know it's baffling to many (probably most) of us here yet you still post in a smug, "I know I'm going against the grain but I'll act like it's the norm" manner anyway.

Yes I am an Irishman with a Unionist perspective, just like about 30 thousand others cheering-on the parade yesterday - thats right Dudess, some of dont hate Britishness :eek: some of us enjoy our cultural ties & strong similarities :eek: and some of us actually like Britain & British people too :eek:

Dudess wrote: »

If you made your position clear ("I'm Irish but also proud of my connection to Britain") instead of this faux taking for granted that everyone will understand where you're coming from and your sh1t-stirring "oh it's heartening to see Union flags hanging up for our boys" crap, you'd be taken a lot more seriously.

I have never made any secret of my 'Pro British' leanings Dudess which I deliberately use as an 'Anti-Republican' weapon, have another look at the countless 'Anti British' posts on this Thread , or any other Thread 4 that matter & you will find the 'Anti-British' brigade are in full flow . . . . . . Am I am not allowed to put forward the 'Counter Argument'?

In a nutshell (I dont agee with Republicans or their ideology 'period') so if you happen to be any other colour than 'Republican' then I am sure we can agree on many things, like some of us being allowed to be 'Irish' but within a 'British' context . . . .

Anyway Dudess, the main thing I am happy about is the relative peace that that the Parade took place in yesterday - apart from a few drunken yobs.

Hope this helps Dudess, and lets not forget that this Thread is meant to be about the Fallen who will be remembered on the 11th.

getz

all the irish soldiers in the first ww was british. two of my great uncles died at dardanelles [turkey] they was soldiers that is what happend to soldiers, ireland was a country before 1920 you know

Fratton Fred

Irlbo wrote: »

Any Irish person who wears a poppy shame on you,hang your head,and dont give me all the 'my grandad died in the somme'' crap,mine actually did,and it wasnt to fight for glory of the crown,or to fight a greater evil,it was because he was broke,hungry and penniless,and had to feed his family,as did thousands of unfortunate Irishmen,its not a romantic moment in history,its a shameful error,that thousands of poor desperate Irishman were cannon fodder for the British Empire

shame on someone for remembering the dead?

now that really is shameful.

Irlbo

Its a symbol of British imperealism,and is associated strongly with the British Army,so no I wouldnt wear it,Id rather spit on it,Ill wear the Easter Lily,it reminds of a time when Irishmen fought for freedom in whatever way they could

Dudess

I've watched the finale of Blackadder Goes Forth so many times and it never fails to make me well up. Now considering it's a laugh-out-loud comedy right up to those few minutes at the end, that is some achievement - and all the more powerful and moving for it. Brilliant, brilliant piece of television and a fitting tribute to all those young men, some not much more than boys, who were ****ed over by the establishment.

I think of the poppy as something similar - a tribute.

Fratton Fred

Irlbo wrote: »

Its a symbol of British imperealism,and is associated strongly with the British Army,so no I wouldnt wear it,Id rather spit on it,Ill wear the Easter Lily,it reminds of a time when Irishmen fought for freedom in whatever way they could

NO, you associate it with British imperialism and the British Army.

Why not take another read of this thread and find out what the Poppy is all about, its history, what it means etc.

If you don't want to buy one, don't buy one but please don't come out with all this martyrdom ****, it makes you look very small minded.