Why do ppl hate veggies?

Penn

SeekUp wrote: »

BAH. Look, I agree with you rather than your friend. But it kind of rubs me the wrong way that your reasoning behind the fact that people hate vegans (which, I think, has already been established as being false) is because your one friend won't sit on a leather sofa. He is one person.

But this is the type of stereotypical thing which I believe is a reason why people hate veggies. Its just an example. People think of veggies and they think of people like that, who just cause a fuss over every simplest of things. I'm not saying veggies do cause a fuss, but its what many people think when they find out someones a veggie. I know its what I thought when I first met said friend. And in many ways I was right. He tries not to cause a fuss, yet it causes a fuss for the people around him

That, and the fact that the leather couch is really comfortable

Tar.Aldarion

rubadub wrote: »

That is the feeling I get from them, I am some sort of degenerate since I eat sausages, while they eat "quality" bacon.

Others will go on about the importance of organics over mass farmed meats, I have never had people say that to me, just read it online a little.

I've never understood people that think one part of the animal is more disgusting than another or that one animal is disgusting/wrong to be eaten but another is fine. What, a dog!? You monster. Now, time for my baby sheep. If I still ate meat, like a couple of years ago, I would have no problem eating any of it, don't see the difference, and it all tasted good so serve up the rat.


Also leather couches are so uncomfortable, don't see why people get them compared to other couches.

Oshare Bones

taconnol wrote: »

I think vegetarians annoy people more than the example you give because they're not talking nonsense and it's harder to dismiss them.

This point alone pretty much sums up the entire thread.

pq0n1ct4ve8zf5

I hate and love in equal measure telling people for the first time that I'm vegan. One the one hand there's that sudden distance in their eyes, the subtle smell of fear and loathing, it's not very pleasant. But at the same time, there's the knowledge that they'll soon figure out I'm not a PETArd, and that eventually, if we come to be friends then they, like all my other friends, will absentmindedly offer me a bite of a burger, pause and say thoughtfully "oh wait, you don't eat this do you?". A sizeable minority of vegetarians and vegans give the rest of us a bad rap, but honestly I couldn't give a fibre-rich crap, because what I eat and don't eat doesn't occupy much of my thoughts. Srsly, there's more interesting things to get my knickers in a twist over.

kraggy

CDfm wrote: »

i stand by what i said - but in the context it was said in was different.

but i guess you learned that guy wasnt a friend - i can accept that you find eating meat not to your liking and it might make you gag -creamed rice or mushrooms do that to me. I know thats not the same but its as close as i can get on food revulsion.You are well rid of that person.

my point is that food and eating with guests is a friendly breaking of bread thing - no one wants lectures on that - some veggies do that and go further into political style anti-globalisation stuff and animal cruelty.

Im not saying that you do.

I was at a very enjoyable evening in Windsor a few years back -sticky cheese fondue with fresh bread -never knew the couple were vegetarian.

I was at a Diwali celebration in London two years back - all vegeterian -same thing.

I suppose when you disassociate the non-meat eating from the other stuff its different. Im vegetarian cos I dont like meat is ok - but I have a relative who brought it up even on religous stuff and holy communion in a way catholic relatives found very offensive and BTW blasphemous. So that was a no no.

What Im suggesting is that people assume you will as a vegetarian be preachy and hold set views and if thats the case - this perception will lead to them stereotyping you as intolerant of meat eaters.

So if the question is why are people intolerant of vegetarians the answer might be as a defence towards an anticipated attack on their behavior as a meat eater and a whole slew of what they would percieve as radical or a alternative vews on a whole host of political, economic and other issues that people assume you might subscribe to.

That would be my view for what its worth.

Therein lies the problem. Both "sides" are like two armies positioned at either end of a field and one is very suspicious of the other and almost waiting for the other to pounce. But that has its roots in the past. Society has moved on in many respects and is much different to say 20 years ago. Meat eaters are more respectful (in general) and as far as I can make out, there are less militant and in-your-face vegetarians who announce on first meeting you that they don't eat meat and chastise others for doing so. I still only tell people I'm vegetarian if it is relevant to the conversation at the time and/or I am about to eat with someone and the topic comes up because they're made aware of it by way of my choice of food.

In fact, up until recently, I never told anyone that wasn't my acquaintance because of the fear of either being ridculed or the endless interogation as to the reasons behind my choice. Thankfully, both are less common nowadays. Don't get me wrong, I have no problem in explaining my reasons, as long as the person enquiring isn't getting visibly agitated from disbelief and disgust, engaging in agressive questioning and displaying arched eyebrows because they think vegetarianism is nuts, and wrong, and that so am I.

Genuine curiosity I have no problem with.

electrofilth

taconnol wrote: »

I think you're right there. Veggie = hippy = bleeding heart liberal = evangelist.

Also, I think most people don't like to think about where their food, etc comes from and vegetarians and vegans force them to think about it more than they would like. It's the same thing in the environmental sector - many people just want to put blinkers on and carry on their merry way.

thats very true, even the notion that vegans and vegetarians exist make some people think more than they would like about where there food comes from. good point.

electrofilth

Oshare Bones wrote: »

This point alone pretty much sums up the entire thread.

I also think that and the fact that some meateaters cannot face the stark contrast between whats tastes nice and fatty for dinner might of got painfully killed or mistreated throughout its life.

For some people the thought that they could never personally, in the flesh, kill and watch a cow, pig or lamb die but they are implicitly involved in this process anyway by buying and eating the meat from a supermarket causes them to overreact when confronted with the reality of food origin.

How many guests have you seen on Jamie Oliver or Gordon Ramseys shows not be able to kill their food before eating it? More than is comfortable viewing. Although I have to hand it to them two cooks, at least they had the guts to kill (and rear) some of the food they cooked. Its a more natural process.

So what I am getting at is that whilst I dont have any problem with someone who wants to avoid the reality of where their food comes from, a lot of people automatically assume that I do, and at the same time dont like to admit or feel the fault they may see in themselves for avoiding the reality in the first place. I guess this is why some meateaters might feel cornered and act so agressively towards vegetarians.

I must stress this is just some meateaters, not any on this forum, just some in general. So if some meateaters wish they did not have a part in animals being mistreated, they might get frustrated that other people actually have the ambition and guts to completely cut out meat fish or even dairy too cause vegetarians or vegans feel so strongly about what they believe in. I do think that some people who eat meat would not want to hurt,mistreat or kill an animal, but see the issue so far removed from everyday life, it would never be a consideration to give up meat because of the disassociation.

There is also the huge misconception that all vegetarians and vegans consider all animals sacred and that they'd go to stupid lengths to be 100% pure. THIS IS UNTRUE and is just a generalisation, so silly comments like "do you cry when you squash a bug" or "get upset when mistakenly eat some food cooked in oil that meat was cooked in" "you know you cant avoid animal products altogether,so therefore you are stupid"......these comments are totally distracting from the fact that most vegetarians and vegans try to minimise killing animals and everything associated. Thats it, they minimise the harm done to animals, so please let this be the end of this misconception.

So having arrived here, I cannot conceive why some people who eat meat cannot just accept that vegans and vegetarians make their choices for Different reasons and be tolerant of that. Thats until, of course, some veggie ends up being preachy and thats whats caused all this mess in the first place.......

Whispered

CDfm wrote: »

Usually the vegetarian stuff has come up as part of family/domestic/guest situations - really I tried to accomadate - but I have become less tolerant.

But what about the protests targeting McDonalds and KFC.

Forgive me but I used to be really annoyed at the Anti-Vivesection Bunch accross from Trinity and the GPO - this crew had the pictures a kids eye contact level and I had to small kids who found it upsetting.

So what should I say - if its guilt by association with extremists thems the breaks.

I am not saying you might not have a point -what I am saying is the groups that claim to represent vegetarians do a good job of alienating others.

oh i 100% agree, i have an earlier post giving out about those groups.

Paparazzo

electrofilth wrote: »

There is also the huge misconception that all vegetarians and vegans consider all animals sacred and that they'd go to stupid lengths to be 100% pure. THIS IS UNTRUE and is just a generalisation, so silly comments like "do you cry when you squash a bug" or "get upset when mistakenly eat some food cooked in oil that meat was cooked in" "you know you cant avoid animal products altogether,so therefore you are stupid"......these comments are totally distracting from the fact that most vegetarians and vegans try to minimise killing animals and everything associated. Thats it, they minimise the harm done to animals, so please let this be the end of this misconception.

We know not all vegetarians think like this. If you read post #68 and #76 you will see Tar.Aldarion does.

If I killed and ate animals, I would have no qualms doing the same to humans, I don't see a difference. You are no different to me than any other animal.

Therefore the questions you jokingly ask are relevent when directed to Tar.
If fire in a building killed 1 million insects, Tar and other vegans with the same views should feel the exact same as if the entire population of Dublin died.
If most people accidently killed another human they would be inconsolable and would possibly never recover mentally. I know I would be shaken up for years if I knocked someone down and killed them, even if they walked out in front of me and I could do nothing. So your question "do you cry when you squash a bug" is actually a very good one when asked to Tar.
If they don't get upset, I'm assuming vegans with Tars views either:

1. Don't really believe all lives are the same
2. Aren't bothered if they kill a human
3. Are trolling

Tar.Aldarion

Actually, it is bothered by both. I assume you would feel nothing if you knocked down a dog? It is a fact that I and others of this mindset try to minimise the death of animals but of course many die for our needs. That is the way of life. There is certainly no point in not driving or walking anywhere in case you kill something. Accidents happen. Otherwise people would not drive at all with the amount of human deaths on the road. People would not smoke due to secon hand smoke diseases etc. Yet they do? Clearly they don't value human life? That is the same argument used when saying, you should not drive, you could kill flies. The only reason you 'feel' more if you knock down a person is because of an evolutionary reaction. You want to further your species and because it is right in front of you, you have to deal with it.

If most people accidently killed another human they would be inconsolable and would possibly never recover mentally.

Actually I doubt that, I know two people who have knocked people down and were completely innocent, it was the bystanders fault. To say they did not recover mentally after years is just out right wrong, I'm sure some would and others would not. 'Most' is debatable. A month after the accident, it's like 'what accident', a lot of people are like that. If it is not right in front of them they do not care. The millions dying of starvation, are people upset on a daily basis as each child dies, inconsolably. Or do people not give two ****s? Would people be upset if a whole city died or not care? If they are not connected to that city, guess what the answer for nearly everybody is. People do like to tell themselves they care and would care though.

electrofilth

Paparazzo wrote: »

We know not all vegetarians think like this. If you read post #68 and #76 you will see Tar.Aldarion does.

Therefore the questions you jokingly ask are relevent when directed to Tar.
If fire in a building killed 1 million insects, Tar and other vegans with the same views should feel the exact same as if the entire population of Dublin died.
If most people accidently killed another human they would be inconsolable and would possibly never recover mentally. I know I would be shaken up for years if I knocked someone down and killed them, even if they walked out in front of me and I could do nothing. So your question "do you cry when you squash a bug" is actually a very good one when asked to Tar.
If they don't get upset, I'm assuming vegans with Tars views either:

1. Don't really believe all lives are the same
2. Aren't bothered if they kill a human
3. Are trolling

i think you are trolling. you know full well that Tar.Aldarion would be bothered if he (she?) killed a human, for gods sake empathy does exist, its only those who are pathological who arent bothered if they kill a human.

There was even a study done of ex-soldiers and the majority of them purposely avoided aiming correctly hence avoiding killing other humans. Killing others, at least with the majority of humans, simply is not natural.

So what exactly are you trying to achieve by assuming Tar.Aldarion or any vegan for that fact isnt bothered by killing another human?

Most vegans I know are the most compassionate people you could meet, thats why they became vegan in the first place.Empathy can be extended towards more that just people you know.

If you read what Tar said properly its meant that he/she equates the un-needed death of a animal with that of a un-needed death of a human, and states so (i assume) purely to display how strongly he/she believes that animals do not have to be unnecessarily killed for his/her consumption.

I dont even know why I am bothering writing this, the arguments you make are barely worth reading.

And the sad fact is 1,000s of people unnecessarily die everyday around the world, and it doesn't seem to bother many people at all.People see it on the tv everyday and no-one gives a ****.... whilst what bothers people is if they have enough money to buy as expensive presents as last year for Christmas, or whether they have enough money to go out on the piss at the weekend, so your stupid analogy of comparing 1 million people dying and no-one caring is a little bit insensitive don't you think? This happens all the time and people, nomatter what they eat, dont care.

rubadub

Tar.Aldarion wrote: »

To my mind the question isn't whether we are biologically designed to eat meat. The question is 'Should we eat meat?'
Each person should decide that for themselves. I have decided to not kill for my dietary pleasure, simple as, as I do not need to. If I killed and ate animals, I would have no qualms doing the same to humans, I don't see a difference. You are no different to me than any other animal. Do what you want yourself.

That was the quote in question

Paparazzo wrote: »

If they don't get upset, I'm assuming vegans with Tars views either:

1. Don't really believe all lives are the same
2. Aren't bothered if they kill a human
3. Are trolling

I would agree with 1 & 3. Tar said s/he DID eat meat in the past, so back then would did you have had no qualms if it was human meat or animal? Or is this only a more recent thing. If somebody said they were going to kill either a mouse or person would you really just be 50/50 about the choice.

Tar.Aldarion wrote: »

I assume you would feel nothing if you knocked down a dog?

A dog is more likely to be a pet, so people would be upset that their accident is going to upset a family and kids, if they drove over a wild fox they would not be as upset. This is one reason people do get upset at the thought of eating dogs, since they associate them with pets & kids. So in my previous question it could be if some killer said they were going to kill a unknown kids pet mouse or unknown remote hermit with no friends or family, then which would you pick to die if given the choice, or would you just not pick and leave it 50/50? since I similarly do not think you really mean this

You are no different to me than any other animal.

Or have you really overcome this "evolutionary reaction".

Tar.Aldarion wrote: »

It is a fact that I and others of this mindset try to minimise the death of animals but of course many die for our needs.

But you view both lives as equal, therefore do you go out of your way to minimise the deaths of all animals (including humans) to the same degree? I would seriously doubt anybody does, but then that would contradict the previous quote of being "no different". People driving are not going to swerve to avoid killing a fox/fly and risk injuring a person in the process, therefore there is a difference.

Tar.Aldarion wrote: »

Accidents happen.

And they happen moreso without adequate precautions being taken, and people will take less precaution to minimise the risk with certain animals over others. I know a guy who will shoo bees or even flies out windows being careful not to hurt them, yet will kill wasps, when I ask why "are you mad!, wasps are bastards"

It would depend on person and animal too. People would be more upset at their pet dying than an unknown stranger. People were upset at 9/11, if that had been in India they may not have been as upset, they are further removed culturally and racially (a different "animal" so to speak), they see the US people as more like themselves, english speakers, I am not saying it is right, but I think it is the case. They are even further removed from the most impoverished third world countries.

entropi

Oshare Bones wrote: »

My opinion on this is those meat-eaters are actually slightly insecure about their choice and don't need to be reminded of their insecurities by talking to you. I doubt there's a single meat-eater in the world who hasn't thought just once "I wonder did this pig/cow/chicken/etc suffer before making it to my plate".

Well let me cast your doubts aside...my little bro is a meat eater, as are the rest of my family, and i would highly doubt he has thought anything of the sort tbh. To him its just food, goes in one hole and out another.

Being the only veggie in my family i sometimes have to remind them that i don't eat meat if they offered some to me, but i dont go about preaching my views on how i eat. Most people who hear it are actually prety "meh" about it and carry on treating me as they would anyway. In my opinion it aint the veggies who are hated, just the small amount that try to convert the masses or come out with moronic statements about people eating meat...and that is what gives the rest a bad name.

Tar.Aldarion

rubadub wrote: »

That was the quote in question


I would agree with 1 & 3. Tar said s/he DID eat meat in the past, so back then would did you have had no qualms if it was human meat or animal? Or is this only a more recent thing. If somebody said they were going to kill either a mouse or person would you really just be 50/50 about the choice.

When I ate meat, which is for most of my life, it was because it was ingrained into me from birth that it was an acceptable practice to do whatever you want to animals, they were nothing, they could not feel. When I actually thought about it did not make sense to me. KIlling things that feel by the hundreds of billions simply for dietary pleasure etc. I became a vegetarian as I did not see the life of an animal to be of less value to a humans. Let me ask you this, what is it that makes you feel that you are superior to an animal? Intelligence etc?

People try to convince others that animals are nothing more than machines without a 'soul', without feelings. 'However, anyone who has ever lived with an animal--be it a dog, a bird, or even a mouse--knows that this theory is a brazen lie, invented to justify cruelty.'

A dog is more likely to be a pet, so people would be upset that their accident is going to upset a family and kids, if they drove over a wild fox they would not be as upset.

And you think that is ok? It is ok to feel more about killing an animal because somebody else cares for it? You are worried when you kill the dog that you are hurting the humans feelings?
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=57796453&postcount=11 Do you believe all people are just upset because it may have been somebodies pet that was run over? Or because it is a traditional pet?

This is one reason people do get upset at the thought of eating dogs, since they associate them with pets & kids. So in my previous question it could be if some killer said they were going to kill a unknown kids pet mouse or unknown remote hermit with no friends or family, then which would you pick to die if given the choice, or would you just not pick and leave it 50/50? since I similarly do not think you really mean this

I actually debate this a lot with myself. I am leaning on the both the same to me, I wish neither to die. "The time will come when men such as I will look upon the murder of animals as they now look on the murder of men".

If I did not hold animals equal to humans:

The whole case for animal rights rests on the fact that we are the superior species which is why we are under an obligation to take care of animals not as intelligent as us, not abuse and kill them because they taste good.

'Animals are more than ever a test of our character, of mankind's capacity for empathy and for decent, honorable conduct and faithful stewardship.... We are called to treat them with kindness, not because they have rights or power or some claim to equality, but in a sense because they don't; because they all stand unequal and powerless before us.'

Or have you really overcome this "evolutionary reaction".

Shoot a horse in front of me, shoot a random person. I will feel equally as bad, yes. However most will not give two hoots about the horse, as white men felt about black men not so long ago.

But you view both lives as equal, therefore do you go out of your way to minimise the deaths of all animals (including humans) to the same degree? I would seriously doubt anybody does, but then that would contradict the previous quote of being "no different". People driving are not going to swerve to avoid killing a fox/fly and risk injuring a person in the process, therefore there is a difference.

That is some people's view not all, certainly not people in ALF or PETA! Or jainists, or some hindus, christians, buddhists, vegetarians.
That's just a blanket statement that people will do this. Obviously they will if they value a human as superior.
'The fact that an opinion has been widely held is no evidence that it is not utterly absurd; indeed, in view of the silliness of the majority of mankind, a widespread belief is more often likely to be foolish than sensible.'

And they happen moreso without adequate precautions being taken, and people will take less precaution to minimise the risk with certain animals over others. I know a guy who will shoo bees or even flies out windows being careful not to hurt them, yet will kill wasps, when I ask why "are you mad!, wasps are bastards"

That's because people act illogically. Will kill a spider but not a fly, will kill a bug but not a cat. Will kill a cow but not a dog.

It would depend on person and animal too. People would be more upset at their pet dying than an unknown stranger.

Exactly, so would you save your pet in a burning down building or this random hermit you have gone on about? How about a pet and a murderer? A pet and a random child? Are people equal with each other?

People were upset at 9/11,

Some were, most told themselves they were. In truth most don't give a toss.

if that had been in India they may not have been as upset, they are further removed culturally and racially (a different "animal" so to speak), they see the US people as more like themselves, english speakers, I am not saying it is right, but I think it is the case. They are even further removed from the most impoverished third world countries.

Which tells you all I need to know about humans? No? Say 9/11 happened in England, what would a lot of Irish people feel?
I can not call such a race superior to another animal. More intelligent etc yes, not better.

electrofilth

Tar.Aldarion wrote: »

When I ate meat, which is for most of my life, it was because it was ingrained into me from birth that it was an acceptable practice to do whatever you want to animals, they were nothing, they could not feel. When I actually thought about it did not make sense to me. KIlling things that feel by the hundreds of billions simply for dietary pleasure etc. I became a vegetarian as I did not see the life of an animal to be of less value to a humans. Let me ask you this, what is it that makes you feel that you are superior to an animal? Intelligence etc?

People try to convince others that animals are nothing more than machines without a 'soul', without feelings. 'However, anyone who has ever lived with an animal--be it a dog, a bird, or even a mouse--knows that this theory is a brazen lie, invented to justify cruelty.'



And you think that is ok? It is ok to feel more about killing an animal because somebody else cares for it? You are worried when you kill the dog that you are hurting the humans feelings?
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=57796453&postcount=11 Do you believe all people are just upset because it may have been somebodies pet that was run over? Or because it is a traditional pet?



I actually debate this a lot with myself. I am leaning on the both the same to me, I wish neither to die. "The time will come when men such as I will look upon the murder of animals as they now look on the murder of men".

If I did not hold animals equal to humans:

The whole case for animal rights rests on the fact that we are the superior species which is why we are under an obligation to take care of animals not as intelligent as us, not abuse and kill them because they taste good.

'Animals are more than ever a test of our character, of mankind's capacity for empathy and for decent, honorable conduct and faithful stewardship.... We are called to treat them with kindness, not because they have rights or power or some claim to equality, but in a sense because they don't; because they all stand unequal and powerless before us.'




Shoot a horse in front of me, shoot a random person. I will feel equally as bad, yes. However most will not give two hoots about the horse, as white men felt about black men not so long ago.


That is some people's view not all, certainly not people in ALF or PETA! Or jainists, or some hindus, christians, buddhists, vegetarians.
That's just a blanket statement that people will do this. Obviously they will if they value a human as superior.
'The fact that an opinion has been widely held is no evidence that it is not utterly absurd; indeed, in view of the silliness of the majority of mankind, a widespread belief is more often likely to be foolish than sensible.'


That's because people act illogically. Will kill a spider but not a fly, will kill a bug but not a cat. Will kill a cow but not a dog.


Exactly, so would you save your pet in a burning down building or this random hermit you have gone on about? How about a pet and a murderer? A pet and a random child? Are people equal with each other?

Some were, most told themselves they were. In truth most don't give a toss.

Which tells you all I need to know about humans? No? Say 9/11 happened in England, what would a lot of Irish people feel?
I can not call such a race superior to another animal. More intelligent etc yes, not better.

great post!!!!

CDfm

My son says vegetarians suffer from flatulence as a result of their diet.

Dont know if its true - just wanted to post something factual - while lowering the tone - just a tad:eek:

sweet-rasmus

CDfm wrote: »

My son says vegetarians suffer from flatulence as a result of their diet.

Dont know if its true - just wanted to post something factual - while lowering the tone - just a tad:eek:

not true and not really helping the tone... only adding sadly.

rockbeer

CDfm wrote: »

My son says vegetarians suffer from flatulence as a result of their diet.

Dont know if its true - just wanted to post something factual

Great contribution. It's fascinating that in your world "factual" obviously has nothing to do with the facts.

Cows tend to have a flatulence problem; are you suggesting they should change their diet? Maybe they should keep off the grass and pile into a sheep now and then.

Climate Expert

Hitler was a vegetarian.

rockbeer

Climate Expert wrote: »

Hitler was a vegetarian.

And Ghengis Kahn, Stalin, Mao, Atilla the Hun and Pol Pot were carnivores. What's your point? :rolleyes:

Tar.Aldarion

Actually Hitler was not a vegetarian. Read a book. His point is to try and cause trouble, reductio ad hitlerum. Another peep about hitler, flatulence etc and there will be a bannage. Thinking about just closing this, will think and get back to it after I move out of my house today.

Vegeta

Tar.Aldarion wrote: »

When I ate meat, which is for most of my life, it was because it was ingrained into me from birth that it was an acceptable practice to do whatever you want to animals, they were nothing, they could not feel. When I actually thought about it did not make sense to me. KIlling things that feel by the hundreds of billions simply for dietary pleasure etc. I became a vegetarian as I did not see the life of an animal to be of less value to a humans. Let me ask you this, what is it that makes you feel that you are superior to an animal? Intelligence etc?

Sorry just thought I'd jump in here, haven't time to read the whole thread so serious apologies if this has been put to bed already.

Do people really think that animals don't die (on pretty large scales) when growing vegetables??? By vegetables I mean all commercial crops really, cereals etc etc etc

Now maybe you guys source your veg from places where they don't use any insecticides etc or trap, shoot, gas and kill any pests feeding on the crop but would most vegetarians go to this trouble in sourcing some grub?

Whispered

Vegeta wrote: »

Do people really think that animals don't die (on pretty large scales) when growing vegetables??? By vegetables I mean all commercial crops really, cereals etc etc etc

This is a very good point actually and something I never considered before. Birds and rats die in their droves this time of year with harvesting.

Organic food doesn't have insecticide does it?

I suppose you have to eat something, and while some products indirectly lead to the deaths of animals (like the rats who get killed on the road beside a grain field), for me, it's totally different to an animal being reared and killed for someone to eat.

Very good point though, it will be interesting to see what others opinions are on it.

rockbeer

Vegeta wrote: »

Sorry just thought I'd jump in here, haven't time to read the whole thread so serious apologies if this has been put to bed already.

Do people really think that animals don't die (on pretty large scales) when growing vegetables??? By vegetables I mean all commercial crops really, cereals etc etc etc

Now maybe you guys source your veg from places where they don't use any insecticides etc or trap, shoot, gas and kill any pests feeding on the crop but would most vegetarians go to this trouble in sourcing some grub?

For most vegetarians I know it's not about being perfect, not about eliminating all possible death, it's about doing what can reasonably be done. Some of course will take this further than others, but overall it's obviously better to do something than nothing. Most are well aware of the bigger picture and the inherently limited impact of their choices. Very little you can do in life is entirely without harm.

I can't help wondering whether your comment is really just a rephrasing of the tired old argument that unless people are perfect then they are hypocrites. You seem to be saying that if you're going to be complicit in any amount of death at all then you might as well say to hell with it and not concern yourself with how much: that because some animals die to produce grain then vegetarians should either starve themselves or eat cows. This of course ignores the facts that

1. Vegetarians are entitled to eat and not eat whatever they like without having to justify their choices to anyone or live up to some arbitrary external standard of consistency

and

2. Doing nothing achieves, precisely, nothing.

Macha

rockbeer wrote: »

<snip> Some of course will take this further than others, but overall it's obviously better to do something than nothing. Most are well aware of the bigger picture and the inherently limited impact of their choices. Very little you can do in life is entirely without harm.

I can't help wondering whether your comment is really just a rephrasing of the tired old argument that unless people are perfect then they are hypocrites. You seem to be saying that if you're going to be complicit in any amount of death at all then you might as well say to hell with it and not concern yourself with how much: that because some animals die to produce grain then vegetarians should either starve themselves or eat cows. This of course ignores the facts that

1. Vegetarians are entitled to eat and not eat whatever they like without having to justify their choices to anyone or live up to some arbitrary external standard of consistency

and

2. Doing nothing achieves, precisely, nothing.

As you say,there's a difference between ignoring the issue of animal death and welfare and acknowledging the limitations of any action. The facts should always be sought and never denied but speaking from an environmental point of view, a lot of people think they do their little bit, but the reality of the impacts of their action are different to what they think. Many people avoid spray cans these days so as not to use CFCs but CFCs have been banned from these products for years. The actual reality on the ground? Their action has had little or zero impact.

In relation to vegetarianism, some people drink soya milk to avoid cows milk but where is this soya from, and has the habitat of other animals been cleared in order to create the land on which the soy has been grown? Plus, what about the environmental impact of shipping that soy to Ireland? Of course the last question depends on if you're interested in the environment but I just don't think it's as black and white as some (note emphasis!) vegetarians make out.

I'm not saying my decision not to be a vegetarian is the right one, or that vegetarians are wrong at all, just that these issues are far more complicated that many people (the majority of them meat-eaters) like to think.

CDfm

taconnol wrote: »

As you say,there's a difference between ignoring the issue of animal death and welfare and acknowledging the limitations of any action. The facts should always be sought and never denied but speaking from an environmental point of view, a lot of people think they do their little bit, but the reality of the impacts of their action are different to what they think. Many people avoid spray cans these days so as not to use CFCs but CFCs have been banned from these products for years. The actual reality on the ground? Their action has had little or zero impact.

In relation to vegetarianism, some people drink soya milk to avoid cows milk but where is this soya from, and has the habitat of other animals been cleared in order to create the land on which the soy has been grown? Plus, what about the environmental impact of shipping that soy to Ireland? Of course the last question depends on if you're interested in the environment but I just don't think it's as black and white as some (note emphasis!) vegetarians make out.

I'm not saying my decision not to be a vegetarian is the right one, or that vegetarians are wrong at all, just that these issues are far more complicated that many people (the majority of them meat-eaters) like to think.

I kind of agree with you here and like the tone of what you say.

But some people become vegetarian because of rights issues - some people dont like touching raw meat for cooking purposes. Others have food allergies to egg or dairy products.Others have religous objections.

So our diet might make them feel ill or whatever.

So its not all cut and dried (except the fruit) but you know what I mean.

This is me showing my tolerant side.

I never thought I would be posting on a veggie forum -a couple of Hitler jokes on the side- without a hint of irony. Well done to the mod.

Brian

I don't hate vegetarians, and I can empathise with their views to an extent, but it still annoys me when we have vegetarian guests over and I end up with courgette stir fry.

CDfm

Baza210 wrote: »

I don't hate vegetarians, and I can empathise with their views to an extent, but it still annoys me when we have vegetarian guests over and I end up with courgette stir fry.

Yuk - awful.

Its your house - cook seperately for yourself or invest in a good fondue set some nice cheeses& good bread & stuff (which my Brother -in -law does) and learn how to make kick ass tomato and pepper soup as a starter.

Fcekin courgette stirfry -thats for people who find cauliflower and cheese too exciting- I wouldnt go to your house for a normal meal.

Brian

It's not a problem anymore since I'm not living at home, but when I was at home and my mum would do the cooking then something like that, or artichoke and feta pie would not be unusual.

taibhse

CDfm wrote: »

I kind of agree with you here and like the tone of what you say.

But some people become vegetarian because of rights issues - some people dont like touching raw meat for cooking purposes. Others have food allergies to egg or dairy products.Others have religous objections.

So our diet might make them feel ill or whatever.

So its not all cut and dried (except the fruit) but you know what I mean.

This is me showing my tolerant side.

I never thought I would be posting on a veggie forum -a couple of Hitler jokes on the side- without a hint of irony. Well done to the mod.

You kind of have an "us" and "them" mentality, which being a meat eater of course you are in the majority mainstream but I dont think that applies on a veg forum

CDfm

Baza210 wrote: »

I don't hate vegetarians, and I can empathise with their views to an extent, but it still annoys me when we have vegetarian guests over and I end up with courgette stir fry.

Oh dear God- was she trying to get you to move out. I think that tactic is in the Eddie Hobbs book.

Not joking - it really is

CDfm

taibhse wrote: »

You kind of have an "us" and "them" mentality, which being a meat eater of course you are in the majority mainstream but I dont think that applies on a veg forum

Sorry that came across but I probably have- an enjoyable thread so I thought it was only right to post and say thanks to those that have made it so.

ruthie77

I never register for these type of things, but I had to reply to your message. I have been a vegetarian for 15 years and was recently bemoaning all the comments I have gotten.
I NEVER bring up the subject of vegetarianism, but people who know me well, know, or they notice when we're eating. Even good fantastic friends go on about it, and in fact have for the past 10 years. Waving meat in my face, going on about the poor animals etc etc. It is MY CHOICE I don't try to convert anyone, I don't find meat disgusting, I don't make a comment about what they are eating, but they still go on about it.
A Sample of the comments:
1)What do you eat then? Seriously, it is 2008 and people are still asking me that question.
2)I don't eat that much meat: Is that your guilty conscience then? because I never enquired about that (but really that's like saying, oh I only ate one pig last year). That was so good to get off my chest, I'm getting old and getting less tolerant of people!

electrofilth

nice to see some positive discussion, tolerant views and decent debate.

for once, it is truly refreshing!

antoniosicily

Unfortunately I don't have time to read the entire thread, anyway, just my two cents.

I eat meat once a week, I don't have anything against veggies, the ones I know are tollerant and they don't care if you eat meat, they simply don't eat it. Probably they majority of non-veggie people don't like veggie people because of some psychological matters which require a terapist, not a nutritionist :-)

Anyway, I've found more difficult to deal with organic-fanatics rather than vegetarians.

Censorsh!t

Because they want the justify their decision to eat meat? They don't want to deal with the guilt so they put people who don't eat it down? I'm not sure, some people just can't stand the fact that you are doing something about it and they are not, so have to make themselves feel better by putting you down.
I don't rant on about vegetarianism at all, in fact i sometimes join in mocking vegetarians when my friends start to mock me, that way they see it doesnt actually get to me, and shut up.

fifomania

I don't eat meat and I don't give anyone I know grief about eating meat, or push my reasons for not eating meat on them. But I will if they bring up the topic first! What winds me up is that a lot of people seem to think you eat 'rabbit food' and nothing else. It's 2008, how sheltered are some people!?

lizzyvera

NekkidBibleMan wrote: »

It's generally accepted by scientists that the main catalyst for the development of the human brain was

There is no consensus on those issues. Don't use terms like "generally accepted". You are either outright lying, or you read one palaeontologist's report (or, more likely, a snippet in the metro) and naievely thought "he must know, he's a scientist".

Sorry, it's just that I study science and I've done a good bit on evolution and anthropology so I get irritated when I hear people making big pronouncements when they don't have all the facts.

Anyway, it's almost impossible to say what's natural and what's not natural when it comes to humans. It's the sort of thing nasty people decide on so they can tell homosexuals they're disgusting, and vegetarians they're deluded, and women that they are just for carrying babies.

Sapsorrow

wow this thread really picked up in the end, it was a bit of a disaster initially but it's gotten really interesting! Kudos to Tar, electrofilth and everyone on both sides for the wicked debate!

kevin_de_big

I find the vast majority of people understand the pertinent logic behind vegetarianism. At least in my experience, for the most part. Those that attack your opinions and views seldom have justifiable ones themselves anyway, and cannot be won over.