Website design... basic advice needed...

justagirl

Hopefully this is the right board - please move if it should be in education, thanks.

Sorry for the probably 'boring' post but I need someone to guide me along the right path!!!

My ultimate aim is to become a good website designer... This has to be done part-time and fitting around 2 school going children.. I got myself a book (CS3 for dummies) and am teaching myself from that... so far its seems easy to follow and I'm learning as I go along designing a site....

I enquired about a 'Certified Adobe Web designer' course (total cost approx €1000 including exams) .. this covered Dreamweaver/Photoshop and Flash..

My question is ... should I just continue to teach myself Dreamweaver with the book and doing sites for friends etc and get experience that way... should I do the same with Flash/Photoshop or should I do a course in all/some ?..

I have enquired about some dreamweaver courses but to be honest have been too expensive for me and from reading what they teach you I feel I am learning myself by the book/experience...

Thanks..:o

Bluefrog

I say keep doing what you're doing. Its one area where a portfolio can carry way more weight than qualifications. I wouldn't tend to rely solely on design though if you are planning to eventually make a living out of this. I would back it up with learning some server side technologies.

Having a project with a defined goal is a great way to learn. Look for feedback here on your site as you go along and I'm sure you'll get good pointers.

justagirl

Thanks bluefrog - much appreciated...

Excuse my ignorance..:o what do you mean by server side technologies? Where should I start ?... Buy books?/FAS course or someother course?... Thank you!

Bluefrog

I mean stuff like PHP or ASP.NET or both. These technologies allow you to do things on the web server like process web forms, interact with databases etc.

www.webmonkey.com has some good tutorials and you might also want to look at www.w3schools.com.

Anyway, if you are just starting out then concentrate on getting a good understanding of XHTML and CSS first. Once you feel really comfortable with those you can think about where you want to go next.

I fell into this profession myself about 10 years ago so I'm thinking about the things I wish someone had pointed out to me from the getgo. I think its probably tough now to make a living from doing purely static sites without providing some intereaction. What users expect from a site is a bar that is always rising.

I have to say I still love my work even after all this time - always something new to learn and I don't know many people who can say that about their work.

justagirl

Bluefrog wrote: »

I mean stuff like PHP or ASP.NET or both. These technologies allow you to do things on the web server like process web forms, interact with databases etc.

www.webmonkey.com has some good tutorials and you might also want to look at www.w3schools.com.

Anyway, if you are just starting out then concentrate on getting a good understanding of XHTML and CSS first. Once you feel really comfortable with those you can think about where you want to go next.

I fell into this profession myself about 10 years ago so I'm thinking about the things I wish someone had pointed out to me from the getgo. I think its probably tough now to make a living from doing purely static sites without providing some intereaction. What users expect from a site is a bar that is always rising.

I have to say I still love my work even after all this time - always something new to learn and I don't know many people who can say that about their work.

Thanks Bluefrog... that explains it to me... you have given me a plan! which I really did need... Thanks for the advice...

You are lucky indeed to have a job that you love and that is always changing - I'm at a stage where I want to learn something for myself and eventually 'get back' to the workforce while doing school runs/and the 'demands' that come with being a sahm!!!! I've taken on board what you have said so I reckon it'll be a long road ahead of me before I could make even a part-time living out of it!! If I learn what you've suggested and am proficient... I'm be a happy camper!! Thanks again!

Eoin

I've yet to meet many designers who are good developers, and vice versa. I believe that they are two very different mindsets. If someone has more of a creative tendency, then I would say to concentrate on the graphic design.

Bluefrog

Well, I suspect that this will be a bit esoteric given the O.P.'s question but that depends how you define creativity. Both disciplines will require some 'creativity'. I definitely don't buy the argument that design and development are mutally exclusive activities.

In my experience the best designers or developers are engaged enough to read around their own specialties a bit. Its true to say that people do tend to lean more naturally in one direction than the other but I think particularly when you are starting out, that's not always obvious and it does no harm to explore. I myself would have come into this area through an interest in graphics and design but over time found the development side more personally rewarding. My point is simply that its a good idea to expose yourself to both avenues - it will stand to you at some point.

No designer can afford to live in a design only headspace when you have issues like SEO to consider and likewise no developer can ignore the design elements inherent in usability.

Having worked in a couple of agencies where the designers were walled off from the developers, I have to say I found it a pretty unhealthy environment for the creativity of both disciplines.

Now I must walk the dog

heggie

I'm with eoin_s on this. Choose what you want to be, a web designer, or a web developer.
They are different.
If you're looking to be a web designer, it's all very well to familiarise yourself with the tools you use (CS3 etc) but don't forget to study design, typography, grids, information architecture, usability along with some xhtml & css.
If you wan't to be a developer, then learn the server side technologies.
Very, very very few developers who say they can design can actually design, and vice versa, so specialise if you want to be at the top of your game, and make decent money. Good luck in your studies, it sounds like a lot, and it is but it is possible.

Bluefrog

heggie wrote: »

I'm with eoin_s on this. Choose what you want to be, a web designer, or a web developer.
They are different.

I'm not disputing this but how can you make an informed choice without exposure to both disciplines? I'd go further and say that designers with no understanding of development can not be great designers just as developers who have no understanding of design can not be great developers. There is simply too much that overlaps both disciplines.

In addition as a self employed web developer I can say with some authority that the vast majority of my clients put base functionality above design. You may not like that (I don't either for the record) but that is the reality. Its why companies like Digiweb can flog €400 websites based on dire templates.

Finally to bring this discussion back to earth for the O.P. it seems obvious to me that those with a wider skill-set have a better chance of picking up work.

Liam Byrne

I'm with Bluefrog on this; how can a specialised "designer" create a WORKABLE good design if they don't know the limitations and requirements for a website (file size, varying screen sizes, etc)

I've seen the results of people putting "design" before functionality, and it ain't pretty; I've also been the developer who's had to somehow get ridiculous unworkable designs to at least be in some way feasible.

I mean, would you design a car if you didn't have some idea where the wheels need to go or what size boot was practical ?

A bit of both is ESSENTIAL.

heggie

yes a bit of both is essential, thats why i mentioned css & xhtml important for a designer. Image optimisation, and resolution awareness is the designers job, but a good designer DOES NOT need to know how to code php or asp. Bluefrog, with your comment you chose to ignore what I had to say, and fit it to your own agenda, I mentioned usability in the required skillsets I think are necessary for designers, yet you go on about functionality being outside a designers skillset, i disagreee, and I think you didn't read my response properly.

Liam, to take your car analogy - a car designer should know weight limitations, and aerodynamics, but not exactly how the engine is built

p

Hey there - drop me an email. I've been doing web design for years and can give you some very solid guidance if you'd like it.

Bluefrog

heggie wrote: »

yes a bit of both is essential, thats why i mentioned css & xhtml important for a designer. Image optimisation, and resolution awareness is the designers job, but a good designer DOES NOT need to know how to code php or asp. Bluefrog, with your comment you chose to ignore what I had to say, and fit it to your own agenda, I mentioned usability in the required skillsets I think are necessary for designers, yet you go on about functionality being outside a designers skillset, i disagreee, and I think you didn't read my response properly.

Liam, to take your car analogy - a car designer should know weight limitations, and aerodynamics, but not exactly how the engine is built

LOL er, what 'agenda' do you think I have? the O.P. asked for advice starting out. I gave her some advice that I wish someone had given me and that was it.

Eoin opened up the discussion beyond that and made some points that I felt needed commenting on. And no, I didn't ignore you. I disagreed with some of what you said - totally different.

I never once suggested that functionality was outside a designer's skill set. If you actually read what I said I made exactly the opposite point saying that I think any designer can only benefit from gaining some understanding of development and that's why I recommended that the O.P. (who seems to have been forgotten in all this) take a look at server side stuff too. It was Eoin who said that she needed to make a choice between design and development now and then stick to it and not go near development topics and in your first post you agreed wholesale with what he said.

Coming from a web development side I have come across a few web designers in my time who seem to believe with a zeal that borders on funny that a developer could never ever understand the mysteries of their work, the subtle interactions of colours, the intricacies of typography etc and therefore they could never dream to become good at design. The funny thing is, I never hear developers saying 'oh this MySQL stuff is too complicated for your little mind Mr Designer'. However H, if you have heard that, it didn't come from me.

I wish the question I posted on rdesktop on the Linux forum was getting half as much attention....

p

Bluefrog wrote: »

Coming from a web development side I have come across a few web designers in my time who seem to believe with a zeal that borders on funny that a developer could never ever understand the mysteries of their work, the subtle interactions of colours, the intricacies of typography etc and therefore they could never dream to become good at design. The funny thing is, I never hear developers saying 'oh this MySQL stuff is too complicated for your little mind Mr Designer'. However H, if you have heard that, it didn't come from me.

Really? Techies (and I often put myself in this category) can act like complete assholes when someone doesn't understand something technical.

Also, designers can be a little defensive about their skill because a great many people disregard design as a skill. They think anyone with Photoshop is a designer, or anyone with Dreamweaver a web designer.

Everyone can be assholes, it's not specific to any particular career.

Bluefrog

Well to be fair I think P that that is a more balanced view. There are idiots on both sides of this.

Clone

To the OP, Keep going by yourself I have done a few courses in Multimedia and Web, while these courses can give you a foothold they never really get you to a level of proper understanding.

I have learned allot by following tutorials, reading forum posts and learning while working on projects.
If you have the opportunity now to learn while you work on sites for friends and family, seize it. There is no better way to learn than getting in at the deep end.
As Bluefrog says you will have a portfolio of work that stands to you allot more than any cert.; it will demonstrate that you can do the work and if you can say you learnt yourself it makes a huge difference as this industry involves allot of self learning wether it be the latest incarnation of the Adobe suite or some new scripting language.

By working on a project where your forced to learn something new to meet a client request can be very rewarding once you figure out that bit of code or how best to work some functionality.

I will admit it can be frustrating when you hit a brick wall and can't solve a problem but thats when you take a break think about or even post on a forum, there is always help at hand.

Good Luck with your work!

Multidiscpline

I believe it is important for designers to have an understanding of development and vice versa. Both these areas overlap and misunderstandings lead to lost time in communication and misgivings about each others roles.

From my experience no matter what media you work with it is important to understand each element and how they work together, this will lead to better quality in communication and understanding for the end user.

justagirl

Thank you all so much for all of your advices and information. Your discussions have certainly made me more aware of all that is involved and has certainly started me thinking.... I've a hell of a lot to learn...

I will plough on by myself and buy more books...... I've only bought dreamweaver to date...looks like I should buy Photoshop and Flash as well .... I have about 3/4 sites that I can do for friends so that will be great experience for me....

Seriously, thank you all... no doubt I'll be posting back..! Enjoy your long weekend.