Fahey for Ireland

LuckyLloyd

Des wrote: »

Or the "English" football "fans" could all fúck off to a dedicated "English" football forum?

What do you say to that?

I'd say there are more of us than there are of you?

Frankie Lee

ditpoker wrote: »

Lloyd pwns this thread.

Fahey, as much as i like him, and he is one of the best the league has to offer, and I love watching him play against similar Irish league opposition, is still NOT GOOD ENOUGH for the championship. if we was, he;d be there... did he ever have trials with a UK team, i dont know, just asking??

this argument has been done to death.

He came through the ranks at Arsenal before Villa paid £250k in 99, played once in the Intertoto cup for them before returning home at the age of just 19 to play for Bluebell Utd, before moving on to Pats, then to Drogs for a season and then back to Pats.

He obviously had talent when he was younger but maybe he could not settle in England.

djpbarry

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Liam Miller >>>>>>>>>>>> Gamble or any of the other second rate players in the EL.

Liam Miller >>>>>>>>>>>> Kevin Doyle

Was the above statement true before Kevin Doyle signed for Reading? If Joe Gamble is signed by a Premiership or Championship side, will he suddenly become a better player?

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

If you're playing your club football in this country you're not good enough.

But if you earn yourself a transfer abroad then you magically become a better player?

applehunter wrote: »

Always the same Luckylloyd. UCD fan arent you?

I find that incredibly hard to believe.

ditpoker wrote: »

Fahey, as much as i like him, and he is one of the best the league has to offer, and I love watching him play against similar Irish league opposition, is still NOT GOOD ENOUGH for the championship. if we was, he;d be there...

I will never understand this logic.

Keith Fahey doesn’t play in the MLS – does that mean that he’s not good enough to play there either?

bohsman

If Le Tissier was a good player he would have played for someone better than Southampton, same goes for Shearer with Newcastle etc etc etc.

On Kalonas, 33 caps 1 goal for a 24 year old midfielder is SOLID.

Fahey had problems when he was younger, bad temper and turned up for training drunk when at Drogheda so would assume similar problems before that in England. He has impressed me more than Kevin Doyle ever did in LOI.

CiaranC

Luckyloyd, keep your opinions to yourself please. The likes of you are an embarassment to football fans in this country.

LuckyLloyd

djpbarry wrote: »

Was the above statement true before Kevin Doyle signed for Reading? If Joe Gamble is signed by a Premiership or Championship side, will he suddenly become a better player?
But if you earn yourself a transfer abroad then you magically become a better player?
I find that incredibly hard to believe.
I will never understand this logic.

1) I attend UCD games. I like to see them win. I like live football, but I realize that the product I see at Belfield is rubbish in comparison to Championship games I have attended previously;
2) It's all about knowing someone is good enough. Destroying substandard opposition is one thing. Going over to the Championship / Premiership and holding down a place in a team and getting the job done against a better caliber of player quite another. The problem is the guys who went over and didn't cut the mustard. Their failures place a shadow of doubt over the next guy who looks like he might be good enough;

CiaranC wrote: »

Luckyloyd, keep your opinions to yourself please. The likes of you are an embarassment to football fans in this country.

I most certainly will not. I like dropping by when you guys are rehashing one of the old arguments that hasn't come up in a couple of weeks or months (what's next in the rotation by the way?). It amuses me that you can't just accept your place in the grander scheme of things.

applehunter

What keeps me from taking your views is going to the cross sometimes on a friday night with 4000 others and seeing some of the quality i have seen in the last 5 years. Rarely have i experienced the same in dublin though. Players like doyle, gamble, o'callaghan, o'flynn. All well capable at their best to get in an ireland squad.

LuckyLloyd

applehunter wrote: »

What keeps me from taking your views is going to the cross sometimes on a friday night with 4000 others and seeing some of the quality i have seen in the last 5 years. Rarely have i experienced the same in dublin though. Players like doyle, gamble, o'callaghan, o'flynn. All well capable at their best to get in an ireland squad.

The problem is that you are seeing them beat up on poor players and teams. Maybe they are good enough - but I wouldn't be willing to say it until I've seen them reach their best at a level of football that is faster, smarter and more competent technically. It seems successive Irish set ups have had a similar rationale.

If Pats had beaten Hertha Berlin and Fahey went on to perform well in the four group games you'd have to give him a chance obv. Much as if Shels had got past Depor a few years ago the six group games would surely have been scouted heavily. But until something like that happens, things aren't going to change. Why can't you guys make peace with that and just enjoy watching your teams and fav players play rather than rehashing this very argument:

- every time an Irish squad is announced;
- every time a LOI player is on the cusp of a move to England;

?

Xavi6

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

The problem is that you are seeing them beat up on poor players and teams. Maybe they are good enough - but I wouldn't be willing to say it until I've seen them reach their best at a level of football that is faster, smarter and more competent technically. It seems successive Irish set ups have had a similar rationale.

If Pats had beaten Hertha Berlin and Fahey went on to perform well in the four group games you'd have to give him a chance obv. Much as if Shels had got past Depor a few years ago the six group games would surely have been scouted heavily. But until something like that happens, things aren't going to change. Why can't you guys make peace with that and just enjoy watching your teams and fav players play rather than rehashing this very argument:

- every time an Irish squad is announced;
- every time a LOI player is on the cusp of a move to England;

?

Because the same crap gets into the squad every time it is announced.

Look, please tell me how the hell it is right for Westwood (playing in League 1, which is probably the equivalent of the LOI) to get into the squad when he clearly says he's not Irish instead of someone like Murphy who is playing in a title winning team that has conceded twelve goals in thirty games.

Surely a knowledgable football fan such as yourself can understand the frustration at that.

OhNoYouDidn't

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Because it increases the chances our national team get to major finals because we insist that our players must play at the highest levels.

Anyway, why do you guys argue this over and over? You may feel like you prove a point on boards or something. lol. Nothing changes because of it. The rest of the footballing world doesn't give a **** about the EL. And won't.

But reading between the lines you said that you are happy that the LoI is behind English football in the scheme of things. I'm asking what sort of 'football fan' thinks this is a good thing.

You can be as obnoxious and patronising as you like, but the simple reality is the LoI is producing serious talent at the moment. And the logical question is why wait till these guys get their overseas move to cap them, which will happen.

And as for your list of 'failings' of the Irish game, even the most dedicated barstooler can't be that oblivious to the far bigger problems the English game is facing.

A sponsor's contract ending is not 'losing a sponsor' by the way.

_blank_

applehunter wrote: »

What keeps me from taking your views is going to the cross sometimes on a friday night with 4000 others

What's the last time there were 4k at the cross?

I believe the sunshiners are coming back for the Setanta Cup final though.

SectionF

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

No, I'm saying that Premiership and Championship football is >>>>>> EL football.

No one is seriously disputing that.
But that doesn't rule out the possibility that there are players in LoI that British scouts have missed. And it doesn't justify what is an effective ban on anyone from LoI playing for their country.

As for your being bored with having to read LoI perspectives:
1. No one forces you to read them.
2. It raises the question why Irish people who exclusively follow or want to read about British or European football feel the need to have an Irish forum to do so.

LuckyLloyd

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

You can be as obnoxious and patronising as you like, but the simple reality is the LoI is producing serious talent at the moment. And the logical question is why wait till these guys get their overseas move to cap them, which will happen.

1) For all this "serious talent" that is apparently being produced over the past few years, how come the UEFA co - efficient isn't improving significantly?
2) How many players have moved overseas and been successful in the past three years? How many more do you think will go? And what percentage of the total playing base do they represent?

I'm sorry, but I don't think the grass is as green as you make it out to be.

LuckyLloyd

SectionF wrote: »

As for your being bored with having to read LoI perspectives:
1. No one forces you to read them.
2. It raises the question why Irish people who exclusively follow or want to read about British or European football feel the need to have an Irish forum to do so.

It's not the perspectives I take issue with. I enjoyed the discussion on each topic the first time around. It's the constant re threading of each issue over and over and over. It isn't the fact that it is an Irish forum talking about domestic Irish football that fills me with wonder. It's the probability that that discussion goes down the same cul de sac every single time - and the willingness of the principle participants to drive into it again and again.

LuckyLloyd

Xavi6 wrote: »

Because the same crap gets into the squad every time it is announced.

Look, please tell me how the hell it is right for Westwood (playing in League 1, which is probably the equivalent of the LOI) to get into the squad when he clearly says he's not Irish instead of someone like Murphy who is playing in a title winning team that has conceded twelve goals in thirty games.

Surely a knowledgable football fan such as yourself can understand the frustration at that.

The most legitimate gripe probably concerns Murphy, I can buy that. But why is it so important whether your players get call ups or not anyway? Some of the LOI fans on this board have previously indicated that they are lukewarm on the Irish team anyway - and Des reckons he has NO time for it whatsoever. If so, why give a flying **** at all?

CiaranC

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

1) For all this "serious talent" that is apparently being produced over the past few years, how come the UEFA co - efficient isn't improving significantly?

Weve climbed 10 place in 5 years and you say it isnt improving. You havent a clue what you are talking about.

http://www.xs4all.nl/~kassiesa/bert/uefa/data/method3/crank2004.html
http://www.xs4all.nl/~kassiesa/bert/uefa/data/method3/crank2009.html

And you are surprised that football fans repeatedly discuss the issues that are most pertinent to their league and clubs? Why?

Think you are better off sticking to your Walter Mitty plastic fan fantasy thread mate.

SectionF

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

The most legitimate gripe probably concerns Murphy, I can buy that. But why is it so important whether your players get call ups or not anyway? Some of the LOI fans on this board have previously indicated that they are lukewarm on the Irish team anyway - and Des reckons he has NO time for it whatsoever. If so, why give a flying **** at all?

So Murphy is an exception, and that discussion is not a cul de sac, as you put it. Who decides that? The issues come up again and again because just airing them here doesn't mean they go away.
And LoI fans would have more loyalty to the national team if the national setup showed more connection to the country.
Anyway, our selectors can relax for a bit - Fahey is not going anywhere just yet, though he says he wants to.

OhNoYouDidn't

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

1) For all this "serious talent" that is apparently being produced over the past few years, how come the UEFA co - efficient isn't improving significantly?

It has 10 places in the last 5 years - basic ignorance.

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

2) How many players have moved overseas and been successful in the past three years? How many more do you think will go? And what percentage of the total playing base do they represent?

I'm sorry, but I don't think the grass is as green as you make it out to be.

The list has been done to death. Like it or not, the days of 15 year olds heading to England chancing their luck are gone. We are in a situation where players will transfer across if good enough rather than chance it via trials or apprenticeships. Most LoI clubs have stepped into this vacum and are bringing young players through. This is a good thing.

You would have to be a seriously deranged individual to not see that Doyle, Long, Meyler, Hunt, O'Donovan, Dillon, Hoolihan, Kavanagh, Mooney etc who are on or near the Irish side (and McCourt) learning their trade in Ireland as pro's is a bad thing. The fact is that LoI players are moving directly to E & SPL clubs in sizeable numbers (more than League 1 for example) and that has not happened in a long time.

What percentage of the Championship clubs playing pool make it as internationals or EPL players? Or Seria B? Its a totally futile argument.

djpbarry

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

The problem is the guys who went over and didn't cut the mustard. Their failures place a shadow of doubt over the next guy who looks like he might be good enough;

And what about the guys that did “cut the mustard”?

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

It amuses me that you can't just accept your place in the grander scheme of things.

How could anything (be it sport, business, whatever) progress with an attitude like that? Should the national team just accept it’s place “in the grander scheme of things”? We’re third seeds in the current qualification campaign, so why bother trying to qualify? It’s not our place, is it?

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

If Pats had beaten Hertha Berlin and Fahey went on to perform well in the four group games you'd have to give him a chance obv.

But he performed well in four games against international-calibre players (Elfsborg and Hertha; obviously Olimps were muck), did he not?

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

For all this "serious talent" that is apparently being produced over the past few years, how come the UEFA co - efficient isn't improving significantly?

It has. Let me guess; it hasn’t improved enough to warrant your approval?

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

How many players have moved overseas and been successful in the past three years?

There have been several players in recent Ireland squads who are ex-LOI.

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

And what percentage of the total playing base do they represent?

Irrelevant; nobody has suggested that large numbers of LOI players are good enough to play for Ireland. We are clearly focussing on the odd exceptional individual, in this case, Fahey.

You have to admit that it is rather strange that we must be the only country in Europe that consistently does not select players from their own league. There are several nations with a similar rank to us with leagues at a similar standard to our own (or even lower) that do: Northern Ireland, Lithuania, Poland, Finland, Macedonia, etc.

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

The most legitimate gripe probably concerns Murphy, I can buy that. But why is it so important whether your players get call ups or not anyway?

Do we not want the best possible selection representing the national team?

LuckyLloyd

CiaranC wrote: »

Weve climbed 10 place in 5 years and you say it isnt improving. You havent a clue what you are talking about.

http://www.xs4all.nl/~kassiesa/bert/uefa/data/method3/crank2004.html
http://www.xs4all.nl/~kassiesa/bert/uefa/data/method3/crank2009.html

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

It has 10 places in the last 5 years - basic ignorance.

Is that significant? Are you where you want to be given the change to summer football?

gustavo

ditpoker wrote: »

Fahey, as much as i like him, and he is one of the best the league has to offer, and I love watching him play against similar Irish league opposition, is still NOT GOOD ENOUGH for the championship. if we was, he;d be there... did he ever have trials with a UK team, i dont know, just asking??

this argument has been done to death.

He's never played in the Irish League

I don't know if he's good enough for this "Championship" he's never played there either

He was released by Arsenal and Aston Villa , but also by Drogheda , clearly not good enough for the LOI so

OhNoYouDidn't

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Is that significant? Are you where you want to be given the change to summer football?

of course it is. a 10 place move on a 50 something list in 5 years is tremendiou progress. good things are happening even if you are too ignorant to notice, or care.

the point here is you clearly are talking out of your swiss.

Pighead

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Is that significant? Are you where you want to be given the change to summer football?

Ah c'mon LuckyLloyd. If you can't admit that an almost 20% improvement in a five year time frame doesn't qualify as significant then you are been stubborn to the extreme.

LuckyLloyd

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

of course it is. a 10 place move on a 50 something list in 5 years is tremendiou progress. good things are happening even if you are too ignorant to notice, or care.

the point here is you clearly are talking out of your swiss.

Onward ho so. Another five years and you'll have someone in the group stages of the European competitions; will start getting some respect; and start getting players into the Irish squad. As such, no need to keep whining on boards if you guys are going to get there eventually, right?

OhNoYouDidn't

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Onward ho so. Another five years and you'll have someone in the group stages of the European competitions; will start getting some respect; and start getting players into the Irish squad. As such, no need to keep whining on boards if you guys are going to get there eventually, right?

You are dead right LL. The only reason we do it is to get the 'respect' of internet bunglers like you.

LuckyLloyd

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

You are dead right LL. The only reason we do it is to get the 'respect' of internet bunglers like you.

Good luck.