Roundabout near B&Q halfords Tipp RD

Blunder

Yeah. It should be the same coming the other way. The flaw I see on this roundabout is that if there are a line of cars to go right towards the B&Q/Industrial estate then people who want to go straight on are more inclined to go into the left hand lane. I'd agree that clearer markings are required here like the roundabout at the bottom of mallow street/dock road. You are correct here Liam. That also annoys me when people do that. It also annoys me when people coming from shannon use the left hand lane and proceed to go out the dock road. Very Very dangerous and Annoying!!

Liam Byrne

With 2 lanes going out the Dock Road, there's an argument that that could be allowed, Blunder; my own view is that I "might" occasionally do that, but not to actually go out the Dock Road - only to turn right and then immediately go up behind Jury's Inn, up Mount Kenneth.

If you are going out the Dock Road and stay in your lane, you should be OK, but yeah - it's too abitrary and you need to keep an eye out of the back of your head at the best of times.

The bottom line is that the situation is unclear; thankfully it's not as bad as it used to be when loads of people used to use the right-hand lane to go straight through a "normal" roundabout.

But like so many things in Ireland, it's not thought through and not planned properly. If any non-standard layout had markings (and not simply on the ground just before the yield line, where the cars in front will prevent you seeing them) then it would be clear.

But that would involve having the roundabouts planned for proper traffic flow, and not simply plonked at an existing junction that doesn't work.

IMHO, one of the worst ones is the one outside Alandale; traffic coming up from the Dock Road breezes straight on through without even slowing down (I had LOADS of near misses when I lived there) and the Scott's "exit", while not actually a "road", confuses the bejaysus out of what lane to use - the Scotts entrance should have been onto the Alandale side-road.

Builderfromhell

Slightly off topic but ever notice how some people indicate as they go into roundabouts. They indicate left, not because they are taking the 1st exit but to veer left around the roundabout. They then indicate right as they go around the roundabout and finally indicate left again to take the 2nd exit.:rolleyes:

Jumpy

Liam Byrne wrote: »

Are you're discounting the two links that I posted above, then ? The ones that explicitly say "taking the first exit", "taking the second exit" and "taking subsequent exits" ?

One of those is from a driving school; also, ninty9er posted above that a driving tester marked down a learner for not using that rule.

Also, re:


Can you let me know what way lanes you would use coming through the Old Cork Road roundabout from either Roxboro or Ballysimon directions ?

From Roxboro, it would be the left lane to go straight on. The first "exit" is only an entrance.

Im not discounting the links, but they are are not official. It would be the same as taking the opinion of a random poster on the internet .

Jumpy

Builderfromhell wrote: »

Slightly off topic but ever notice how some people indicate as they go into roundabouts. They indicate left, not because they are taking the 1st exit but to veer left around the roundabout. They then indicate right as they go around the roundabout and finally indicate left again to take the 2nd exit.:rolleyes:

I have never seen that.

Liam Byrne

Jumpy wrote: »

From Roxboro, it would be the left lane to go straight on. The first "exit" is only an entrance.

I think you've missed the point of that post, Jumpy......you'd posted earlier that the number of exits wasn't a factor, but if you used your earlier rules then coming from the opposite direction - from Ballysimon - (left for 9 & 12 o'clock) then you'd be using the left lane for BOTH coming from Ballysimon.

Jumpy wrote: »

Im not discounting the links, but they are are not official. It would be the same as taking the opinion of a random poster on the internet .

We're not talking a forum or Wikipedia here; one of them is a driving school.

Liam Byrne

Jumpy wrote: »

I have never seen that.

Used to see that a bit, but thankfully must people seem to have copped on.

zuroph

Liam Byrne wrote: »

The satellite photo only applies if you believe the "12-o-clock rule", so it's not relevant if the rule in question is "first two exits / third and subsequent exits".

the rule is beyond 12 o clock. ask a driving instructor. call Irish advanced motorists and ask them.

Been there. Completely different rules, considering that traffic COMING ONTO the roundabout has right-of-way.

the traffic cominf onto the roundabout rule in france has been gone for about 15 years now. their roundabouts are the same as ours now.

That's irrelevant; there is a broken line for 3-quarters of the stretch and there is no excuse for crossing the continuous white line at the top or the bottom of the stretch. Yes, it is a poorly-thought-out design, but the same happens at the top of William St, where there is PLENTY of space to do it correctly.

agreed

ninty9er

zuroph wrote: »

the traffic cominf onto the roundabout rule in france has been gone for about 15 years now. their roundabouts are the same as ours now.

It still applies on Arc du Triomphe though!

zuroph

ninty9er wrote: »

It still applies on Arc du Triomphe though!

u sure?! is there traffic lights? I know theres no insurance on it!

Xennon

hammered here: http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055183610

Basically there are two systems at work, those who did their test a while back would be using the left lane for the first two exits, and those who studied the more recent rules would be going by the 'left lane for anything upto and including straight ahead' ethos.

Even instructors are confused, ask a few and you'll get different answers.

I think the bigger problem is people who believe their indicators give them right of way.

And as for the genius who came up with labeling the lanes on the ground so that unless you know the road, you haven't a hope of being in the right lane in heavy traffic, I reckon he got promoted to designing junctions for limerick.

I'd like to get a definitive answer to this from a reliable source. The ROTR booklet only deals in ideal situations.

Liam Byrne

zuroph wrote: »

the rule is beyond 12 o clock. ask a driving instructor. call Irish advanced motorists and ask them.

So, following that logic, if you're coming from Ballysimon to Roxboro through the Old Cork Road roundabout, you should queue in the left-hand lane with those turning left and leave the right-hand lane empty ?

zuroph

its marked differently.

ninty9er

Liam Byrne wrote: »

So, following that logic, if you're coming from Ballysimon to Roxboro through the Old Cork Road roundabout, you should queue in the left-hand lane with those turning left and leave the right-hand lane empty ?

Yes....the right hand lane is for a turnaround AFAIK. Unless there's an arrow pointing towards the Roxboro Roundabout.

zuroph

ninty9er wrote: »

Yes....the right hand lane is for a turnaround AFAIK. Unless there's an arrow pointing towards the Roxboro Roundabout.

if its not marked, then this is the rule.

Liam Byrne

zuroph wrote: »

its marked differently.

Don't think so, but to be fair I'll check the next time I pass through it.

Judging by the confusion in the other thread mentioned above, it seems like there's two trains of thought depending on when people did their tests.

Those of us who did the test a while back learned the 2nd exit rule, while those learning more recently seem to have learned a different one.

The problem is that with the ambiguity in the rules of the road book it doesn't seem to be clear which is correct; added to this the examples in the book show (a) a standard, perfectly symmetrical, 4-exit roundabout and (b) say in the text "taking the second exit" but in the captions "going straight ahead".

Given that the text mentions the second-exit rule, and that that rule covers BOTH (while the other way around doesn't cover both) the second-exit rule would SEEM to be the proper rule, but a few emails to the RSA would seem to be in order to clarify it properly.

How about we all email them, including non-four-exit examples that need proper clarification ? They'll hardly ignore all of us ?

Jumpy

Liam Byrne wrote: »

Don't think so, but to be fair I'll check the next time I pass through it.

Judging by the confusion in the other thread mentioned above, it seems like there's two trains of thought depending on when people did their tests.

Those of us who did the test a while back learned the 2nd exit rule, while those learning more recently seem to have learned a different one.

The problem is that with the ambiguity in the rules of the road book it doesn't seem to be clear which is correct; added to this the examples in the book show (a) a standard, perfectly symmetrical, 4-exit roundabout and (b) say in the text "taking the second exit" but in the captions "going straight ahead".

Given that the text mentions the second-exit rule, and that that rule covers BOTH (while the other way around doesn't cover both) the second-exit rule would SEEM to be the proper rule, but a few emails to the RSA would seem to be in order to clarify it properly.

How about we all email them, including non-four-exit examples that need proper clarification ? They'll hardly ignore all of us ?

I found an entry on another blog where someone had done just that. He was driven mental, he couldnt get a straight answer and after phone calls and emails they ended up answering the wrong question. He gave up.

zuroph

limerick traffic corp perhaps?

Liam Byrne

I sent this to info@rsa.ie today, in the hope of clearing this up once and for all.

Hello

A number of us were having a discussion relating to the use of roundabouts, and we would welcome clarification on this.

If you are travelling through a roundabout - one which is NOT the standard "4-compass-points" - what are the correct approach lanes to use ?

I would have thought - from when I did the test 20 years ago - that the first two exits were the left lane, all others were the right lane. However this "appears" to have been superceded (possibly because lots of newer roundabouts now have 5 or 6 exits) by a different rule.

Firstly, is this correct ? Does the "left lane for first 2 exits; right for subsequent exits" rule no longer apply ?

The current ROTR book seems to fudge the issue, saying "taking the second exit" in the text while labelling the diagram "going straight on"; these unfortunately coincide when it's a standard 4-exit, symmetrical roundabout, but not otherwise.


Assuming (a) no overriding road markings (b) that you are approaching from the bottom and (c) standard 2-lanes incoming, which lane applies in the following scenarios ?


Example 1:
No exit to the right. Which lane applies for going straight on ?

Example 2:
Skewed roundabout with top road "leaning" LEFT. Which lane applies for taking the "top" exit ?

Example 3:

Skewed roundabout with top road "leaning" right. Which lane applies for taking the "top" exit ?

Example 4:
Skewed 5-exit roundabout. Which lane(s) apply for taking either of the top exits ?

These are merely examples, and I know that in SOME cases the lanes are marked. But firstly, not all lanes are marked and secondly it is impossible to see the lane markings on the road if there is a car in front of you.

I look forward to receiving your reply.

Regards,
Liam Byrne

ninty9er

Liam Byrne wrote: »

I sent this to info@rsa.ie today, in the hope of clearing this up once and for all.

Was there a diagram with it. It would be difficult to answer each scenario with out a diagram.

zuroph

also, example 2 and 3 are the same?

Liam Byrne

ninty9er wrote: »

Was there a diagram with it. It would be difficult to answer each scenario with out a diagram.

Don't worry - there was, using - o - | \ / characters!!!

But when I copied and pasted the old "HTML doesn't show multiple spaces" rule kicked in and skewed the whole thing

Re the two "the same" - in one the exit was "\" and in the other it was "/", i.e. one just before the disputed "12 o'clock", and one just after.

EDIT : CRAP! Just spotted that the text (here, at least) is indentical!!! :P Must check that the email was right (coz I did some messing around on this because the diagrams went arseways...

Fingers crossed we'll get a definitive reply, coz if the RSA doesn't know, then presumably no-one does!!!! :eek:

Jumpy

Liam Byrne wrote: »

Don't worry - there was, using - o - | \ / characters!!!

But when I copied and pasted the old "HTML doesn't show multiple spaces" rule kicked in and skewed the whole thing

Re the two "the same" - in one the exit was "\" and in the other it was "/", i.e. one just before the disputed "12 o'clock", and one just after.

EDIT : CRAP! Just spotted that the text (here, at least) is indentical!!! :P Must check that the email was right (coz I did some messing around on this because the diagrams went arseways...

Fingers crossed we'll get a definitive reply, coz if the RSA doesn't know, then presumably no-one does!!!! :eek:

I do!

knipex

Liam

I am one of the people who queues for ages at that roundabout each evening.

I happen to agree with you that in theory you should use the right hand lane for continuing on the Tipperary road BUT

When you use the right hand lane and then want to exit onto the Tipperary road what happens ?

You have to cut across a line of traffic where you have no right of way. As a result you must either stop and wait for someone to let you out (which I think is illegals as you would be blocking the roundabout) or keep going around until you can safely cross lanes.

My bet is that you use option 3 and just force your way across making the car on your left brake. This is unsafe and dangerous.


The only reason anyone with an ounce of cop on or any real driving experience and familiarity with the road \ junction would use the right hand lane is to jump the traffic queue.

Liam Byrne

knipex wrote: »

Liam

I am one of the people who queues for ages at that roundabout each evening.

I happen to agree with you that in theory you should use the right hand lane for continuing on the Tipperary road BUT

When you use the right hand lane and then want to exit onto the Tipperary road what happens ?

You have to cut across a line of traffic where you have no right of way. As a result you must either stop and wait for someone to let you out (which I think is illegals as you would be blocking the roundabout) or keep going around until you can safely cross lanes.

The above applies to EVERY roundabout in the country, even the ones where you're coming off at the fabled 12 o'clock. It would also apply at 3 o'clock, going into B&Q, where traffic coming from Castletroy to B&Q would be on your left.......do you use the left lane to turn right because of that, too ?

knipex wrote: »

My bet is that you use option 3 and just force your way across making the car on your left brake. This is unsafe and dangerous.

Then you'd bet wrong, and you've no call to suggest that I "force" myself anywhere. I've already posted that you should never cut across the car on your left; I would definitely show my displeasure if the car on my left was the same car as was on my left going into the roundabout, but I would do my best to ensure that their mistake doesn't cause an accident.

And forgive me if I'm wrong, but think through what you're saying logically. You AGREE that the theory is right, but you're siding with those who'd force me out into oncoming traffic, rather than me who's doing it right ? That doesn't make sense.

knipex wrote: »

The only reason anyone with an ounce of cop on or any real driving experience and familiarity with the road \ junction would use the right hand lane is to jump the traffic queue.

COMPLETELY UNTRUE AND UNFAIR. 100%. "The only reason" :rolleyes: I've told you the reason I do it, and it doesn't correspond with your "only reason", so that's that shot down for a start. If I'm using the right lane it's because I believe it to be the correct one (as, ironically, do you). So you're happy to use the wrong lane and then accuse those doing it right of queue-jumping ????? That's not even logical !!!

I've REGULARLY stayed in a left hand lane when it was the correct one to use and been passed out and forced to brake (as you describe above) by idiots doing it wrong.

So for your information - I DO NOT use inappropriate lanes in order to jump a queue.

Please do not jump to incorrect conclusions or disparage my driving.

If the RSA indicate to me that things have indeed changed since I learnt how to drive, I will change. Otherwise, I will continue to do it right.

knipex

Liam Byrne wrote: »

Otherwise, I will continue to do it right.

As is your prerogative but when (not if) there is an accident on that roundabout from people on the right hand lane crossing the left to exit (not saying it will be you there are many others) I hope they do not expect much sympathy from the Guards or the Judge.

There is one key overriding rule of the road (and I speak as someone who has driven 100's of thousands of miles (if not millions) all over Ireland and 3 continents.

Use your brain. There are too many unknowns and variations on roads to have absolutely set laws, there has to be some level of common sense and cop on. When in doubt do what is safe, what minimises danger to you and others.

You can choose to do that or you can continue to be "right".

Liam Byrne

knipex wrote: »

As is your prerogative but when (not if) there is an accident on that roundabout from people on the right hand lane crossing the left to exit (not saying it will be you there are many others) I hope they do not expect much sympathy from the Guards or the Judge.

Which is precisely why I am attempting to clarify the rule. Plus "your honour, I knew the rule but ignored it" is not exactly a decent defence. There are many others because that IS (or at least WAS) the rule. If it's still the rule, why force them to change instead of the people that are doing it wrong ???? Even if it's 50% doing it both ways, you still have 50% to teach, so why not teach them the right way ? And if it HAS changed, then tell the 50%.

That way everyone ends up doing it right, which is safer.

IF there's a crash involving me, and despite my best efforts to avoid it, because someone's in the wrong lane, my conscience is clear and I will stand up for it.

And I'm not being stubborn; if the RSA get back to me and tell me that the rule is changed, I'll change too - my aim is to abide by the rules, not break them, so that IF there's an accident I would be in the right.

But I won't break the rule just because other people decide to.

knipex wrote: »

There is one key overriding rule of the road. Use your brain. There are too many unknowns and variations on roads to have absolutely set laws, there has to be some level of common sense and cop on. When in doubt do what is safe, what minimises danger to you and others.

All noble statements, but you yourself said that you know and agree with the rule and choose to ignore it. Part of (agreed that it's not "all" but definitely part of) "common sense and cop on" is to know the rules and abide by them.

knipex wrote: »

You can choose to do that or you can continue to be "right".

Forgive me if I find it hard to take advice from someone who earlier said "the only reason" for abiding by the rules of the road was to jump a queue, rather than - well - abiding by the rules of the road that you yourself said you agree with.

Also, any further comment on how to negotiate turning right, considering that the exact same issue applies that you're supposedly trying to avoid by doing it wrong ?

Jumpy

Ha! You cant stop us... we will just keep coming until we wear you down Liam. A couple of weeks from now you will be rocking back and forth in a straight jacket mumbling "right past 180...right past 180..."

Liam Byrne

Jumpy wrote: »

Ha! You cant stop us... we will just keep coming until we wear you down Liam. A couple of weeks from now you will be rocking back and forth in a straight jacket mumbling "right past 180...right past 180..."

You could well be right, Jumpy.......IF the RSA says that that is the rule!!!!

Mind you, we'll all need satnavs and Google Maps in the cars then, just in case it's 181 !!!

baza1976

Jumpy wrote: »

Heres a trick. Pay very close attention to what the majority of traffic is doing.
Pop down there for an hour or so. Report back with the findings.


waits...


I already know what the answer will be, but feel free to be the odd one that thinks he is doing it correctly.

Jumpy,

The fact that a lot of peole are doing the wrong thing does not make it right. I read a few posts by you here on this thread and it seems to be "the jumpy way and no other way"

If there was an accident on this roundabout between me and you because you were in the wrong lane. you would be in the wrong. I wouldn't be relying on sympathy from cops or judges as you also mentioned. what i would be relying on would be the law. I have asked my Uncle and brother inlaw who are both Garda. I have also asked my neighbour who is a solicitor and they all agree with me. who have you refered to? besides the "book of Jumpy".

Jumpy, I wasn't asking people hear what the rule was in my original thread. What I was doing was stating my annoyance about people breaking the rules on this roundabout. I asked people what they thought of it.