coming to a stop in a high gear

artful_codger

hi, can someone advise whether an instructor will fail you on a test if you come to a stop in fourth gear? i've picked up lots of bad habbits since i started learning to drive (coasting, crossing hands on the wheel, etc) but i'm not sure whether i should be coming to a stop in such a high gear. Obviously it's easier than shifting gears down when a traffic light suddenly goes red, but will it get you a warning ?

Tony Broke

As long as your coming to a dead stop I think its fine, it was for my test anyway.

Alanstrainor

If you're coming to a complete stop, stopping in a high gear would almost be preferable. Gears to go, breaks to slow;). But if approaching slow moving traffic, or traffic that is about to start off, cycling down through the gears would be needed.

OLP

According to my instructor you shouldn't come to a complete stop in anything above 3rd gear. I.e coming to a red light in 4th, I would shift down to third while I'm slowing down.

macroman

OLP wrote: »

According to my instructor you shouldn't come to a complete stop in anything above 3rd gear. I.e coming to a red light in 4th, I would shift down to third while I'm slowing down.

Was told that too. Was also told that if you can, cycle down the gears.

Alanstrainor

OLP wrote: »

According to my instructor you shouldn't come to a complete stop in anything above 3rd gear. I.e coming to a red light in 4th, I would shift down to third while I'm slowing down.

It's down to preference, but there is nothing wrong with stopping in a high gear, infact it's considered better for your transmission, not cycling through the gears. In the past it was considered essential to help slow the car down with both the breaks and engine breaking. However, these days, Disc brakes are more than capable of stopping a car without the need for engine breaking.
As has been said on this forum before.
"Gears to go, Brakes to slow!"

cantdecide

It's surely better if you can but don't rather than can't so don't. There really aren't a huge amount of occasions when you brake from 4th/5th to 0mph.

DriveSkill

It is quite acceptable to stop in any gear (including 5th if the situation arises!) during the driving test. Typical example would be driving along a main road in 4th/5th, no traffic in front of you but you see a STOP sign or a red traffic light. Usual procedure of check mirrors, start to brake gently and then depress the clutch just before you stop. This would be the recommended way of doing it - easiest on the car and if you do it correctly it will be a nice smooth stop. One word of caution on this method is : it works best when you have a clear run to the stopping point (i.e. no traffic or just stopped traffic in front of you). If there is a line of traffic moving slowly ahead you it is usually necessary to come down through the gears.

Equally acceptable (from a driving test point of view) is to come down through the gears when stopping. The really important point though is you must use each gear you select. Otherwise you are coasting! So, procedure to come down the gears would be :

1. Mirrors and start to brake
2. Change 4th -> 3rd and come off the clutch
3. Brake little more
4. Change 3rd -> 2nd and again off the clutch
5. Brake
6. Clutch in just before the car comes to a complete stop.

It equally fine to go directly from 4th -> 2nd, just make sure you have the speed correct for the gear you are selecting.

Thing you should NOT DO :
- If you are going from 4th->2nd there is no point or need to put the gear lever into 3rd - go direct to the gear you want.
- Do not change gear and then keep the clutch depressed - this is a form of coasting. If you select the gear you MUST use it - drive in it.
- Do not change down below 2nd gear - i.e. never select 1st until you have actually stopped. (There are some exceptions when dealing with some Yield signs but wont go into that here )

stevenmu

I did it a few times in my test and wasn't marked down for it. I think the important thing to keep in mind is car control. If your engine is juddering on the verge of a stall, or if you have to clutch in and coast you are maintaining poor control of the vehicle and you will be marked down. If it's all nice and smooth you should be fine.

cantdecide

DriveSkill wrote: »

1. Mirrors and start to brake
2. Change 4th -> 3rd and come off the clutch
3. Continue to Brake little more
4. Change 3rd -> 2nd and again off the clutch
5. Continue to Brake
6. Clutch in just before the car comes to a complete stop.

I would revise as above- You should press the brake gently at the beginning of the manouvre and it should be held more or less evenly all the way down the gear changes and finally to a halt. Think of it as an gentle, even braking procedure to a halt punctuated by gear changes.

ardmacha

As has been said on this forum before.
"Gears to go, Breaks to slow!"

Let's hope that whoever said this was better at driving than spelling.

In general you should be in a gear appropriate to your speed, including when slowing down. But you sometimes have to slow down in a short distance making changing down less important.

Alanstrainor

ardmacha wrote: »

In general you should be in a gear appropriate to your speed, including when slowing down. But you sometimes have to slow down in a short distance making changing down less important.

Of course there are situations where changing down through the gears will be required, but coming to a complete stop, ie at a stop sign, or stopped traffic etc, it is better for your car to stop in a higher gear. The whole reason for cycling down through the gears in the past was to reap the benefits of engine breaking. As drum breaks, under prolonged breaking, would deteriate and would lose their effectiveness.

And, there's no need for grammar police on here either.

challengemaster

TBH downshifting through gears helps slow down aswell. And there's no way I'd be coming to a stop in anything over second unless it was something like a backroad emergency stop (1 car width lane, 2 cars).

Just the way I've learned though.

coolshark

Everything has been mentioned already regarding stopping in a higher gear like 4th or 5th. If you're doing 50 kmph in 4th gear approaching traffic or traffic lights which are red and a line of traffic in front of you which is stopped, it is perfectly fine to stop in 4th gear. MAke sure you start braking gently early as you look in your rear-view mirror with extra pressure on the brake. This is what I call "killing the speed" with your brake and clutch in in position where you can see the back wheels of the vehicle in front of you.

Lots of people were and still are taught to change down the gears when coming to a stop. It is like using the gears to slow the car down and putting less pressure on the brake pads/drums/discs so that you get longer life out of your brake pads/drums/discs.

Think about it though. Why not "Stop in the gear you are in" So if in 4th gear why not stop in 4th gear? Obviously there are times when you'll need to come down the gears but I'll explain that in a minute.

Every time you change a gear you use the clutch and the gearbox. So if you are over using your clutch and gearbox then you're doing something that is unnecessary and you will have to replace your clutch and gearbox alot sooner than you would if you just used your brake. What is more expensive to replace? A clutch and gearbox or brake pads?

Clutch and gearbox would cost for parts best part of 2,000 euros, bout 60 -80 euros per hour for a mechanic then you've the VAT on top of all that so you're talking 2,500 euros plus!! Brake pads and/or brake discs would cost less than 500 euros I would say. I'm not a mechanic so I don't want anyone mailing me to giving me the exact cost of the above. The point I'm making is that it is a fraction of the cost to replace brake pads rather than a new gearbox and clutch.

If you're approaching slow moving traffic that is moving and not stopped then you'd need to drop a gear to either 3rd or 2nd gear in order to match the gear to the speed of vehicles in front of you. If you leave it in 4th gear youill labour your engine and pick up marks for "gears" on your driving test.

It already been mentioned and perfectly correct. If you are changing down gears you must come off the clutch after each gear change in order to brake and then clutch. IF you leave the clutch down as you're braking, you're coasting! Make sure if you're approaching a turn in 3rd gear and you're dropping to 2nd gear make sure you adjust your speed using your brake and you are off the clutch as you're turning or else you are coasting if you're still on the clutch as you're turning.

Moving back to gears. When I was learning to drive and I'm approaching traffic lights which are red in 4th gear I was always told to drop it to 3rd gear. But lets say I'm approaching traffic lights in 4th gear that are "Amber" and I've time to stop. I knew I didnt have time to "Brake Drop to 3rd gear, then up with the clutch and then brake and clutch down to stop" So I panicked a little bit cos I was so conscious of not coasting that i went into neutral broke hard and put the clutch down and stopped bout 5 feet over the line where I should have stopped.

To this day if my instructor asked me "Why didn't you just stop in 4th gear? I would have replied "You keep getting me to stop in 3rd gear!! I didnt know I could stop in
4th!!!"

Stopping in the gear you're in is:

More advanced and completely takes out the possibility of COASTING
Is better for the cars transmission
Saves you huge costs of replacing clutch and gearboxes earlier than you should have to.

Changing down the gears to come to a stop actually only does one thing:

IT MAKES YOUR CAR WORK HARDER!!

papu

I agree , I always skip gears when slowing down and changing gears , As long as you have the speed right its perfectly ok , same when approaching a stop sign , Stop and switch to first , makes for a longer stop instead of switching to first and then bombing it through.

coolshark

I forgot to mention that I used to come down the gears to stop also until I did course on Advanced Driving and passed my Advanced Driving Test with the I.A.M (Irish Advanced Motorists) I was taught to use engine braking by just coming off the gas and using the brake so you have much fewer gear changes to make and less work to do.

Think of this scenario:
You're driving on a motorway at 120 km/h in 5 gear and there is a crash or a situation in front where you've to do an emergency stop. Will u attempt to change down from 5th to 4th to 3rd to 2nd gear before you stop. You will never be able to do that and you'll crash in to the car in front of you. When the driver in front asks you?

What the f**k? Look what you're after doing to my car!!

Will you reply?:
"Sorry bout that. I was just getting into 2nd gear!!

STOP IN THE GEAR YOU'RE IN AT THE TIME!! THERE IS NO NEED TO DROP GEARS TO STOP!!

AS MENTIONED: YOUR GEARS ARE TO GO, YOUR BRAKES ARE TO SLOW!!

This is what I teach my complete beginners on their very first lesson

javaboy

coolshark wrote: »

More advanced and completely takes out the possibility of COASTING
Is better for the cars transmission
Saves you huge costs of replacing clutch and gearboxes earlier than you should have to.

Changing down the gears to come to a stop actually only does one thing:

IT MAKES YOUR CAR WORK HARDER!!

But if the car is in 4th or 5th gear and eventually gets down to speeds as low as 5 or 10km/h doesn't it take an awful lot of clutch control (bordering on coasting) to stop the car juddering? In my mind 4th or 5th gear at 10km/h is tantamount to coasting as there is far less control of the car than when the appropriate gear is selected.

coolshark wrote: »

I forgot to mention that I used to come down the gears to stop also until I did course on Advanced Driving and passed my Advanced Driving Test with the I.A.M (Irish Advanced Motorists) I was taught to use engine braking by just coming off the gas and using the brake so you have much fewer gear changes to make and less work to do.

Think of this scenario:
You're driving on a motorway at 120 km/h in 5 gear and there is a crash or a situation in front where you've to do an emergency stop. Will u attempt to change down from 5th to 4th to 3rd to 2nd gear before you stop. You will never be able to do that and you'll crash in to the car in front of you. When the driver in front asks you?

What the f**k? Look what you're after doing to my car!!

Will you reply?:
"Sorry bout that. I was just getting into 2nd gear!!

STOP IN THE GEAR YOU'RE IN AT THE TIME!! THERE IS NO NEED TO DROP GEARS TO STOP!!

AS MENTIONED: YOUR GEARS ARE TO GO, YOUR BRAKES ARE TO SLOW!!

This is what I teach my complete beginners on their very first lesson

If the situation requires an emergency stop then it requires an emergency stop. Nobody is arguing that an emergency stop involves coming down the gears. That's an extreme situation and not the one we are talking about.

FWIW I like to know that if I need to, I still have some acceleration available to me for unexpected situations so I try to always be in a gear where that is possible.

Alanstrainor

It wouldn't be considered coasting if you were coming to a stop in a high gear and had to clutch in early as a result. Most coasting faults are obtained by clutching in while Taking corners or while driving for no apparent reason.

javaboy

Alanstrainor wrote: »

It wouldn't be considered coasting if you were coming to a stop in a high gear and had to clutch in early as a result. Most coasting faults are obtained by clutching in while Taking corners or while driving for no apparent reason.

But ignoring the test and what constitutes a fault etc., aren't they both coasting essentially?

btw I learned using the downshift method and like most people I tend to speak up for they way I learned but I'm open to be convinced on the issue. Would a compromise of 4th to 2nd not give you the best of both worlds?

Alanstrainor

It is down to personal preference at the end of the day. But Coasting would be "unecessarily" depressing the clutch. Coming to a stop in a high gear would make it necessary to depress the clutch that bit earlier.

andrewh5

coolshark wrote: »

I forgot to mention that I used to come down the gears to stop also until I did course on Advanced Driving and passed my Advanced Driving Test with the I.A.M (Irish Advanced Motorists) I was taught to use engine braking by just coming off the gas and using the brake so you have much fewer gear changes to make and less work to do.

Think of this scenario:
You're driving on a motorway at 120 km/h in 5 gear and there is a crash or a situation in front where you've to do an emergency stop. Will u attempt to change down from 5th to 4th to 3rd to 2nd gear before you stop. You will never be able to do that and you'll crash in to the car in front of you. When the driver in front asks you?

What the f**k? Look what you're after doing to my car!!

Will you reply?:
"Sorry bout that. I was just getting into 2nd gear!!

STOP IN THE GEAR YOU'RE IN AT THE TIME!! THERE IS NO NEED TO DROP GEARS TO STOP!!

AS MENTIONED: YOUR GEARS ARE TO GO, YOUR BRAKES ARE TO SLOW!!

This is what I teach my complete beginners on their very first lesson

Well said! That is official police driver teaching in the UK as well. The whole thing about going down through the gears was for a time when brake linings were made of combustible material and caught fire.

macroman

andrewh5 wrote: »

Well said! That is official police driver teaching in the UK as well. The whole thing about going down through the gears was for a time when brake linings were made of combustible material and caught fire.

Old driving instructor frowned upon cycling down gears in advance of junction i.e. Roundabout, new one encourages it (and I prefer it TBH). If you have to stop immediately clutch and brake, or if you're going to fast in approach to a junction stop in a high gear, but if I can anticipate it I cycle down to second.

timmywex

andrewh5 wrote: »

Well said! That is official police driver teaching in the UK as well. The whole thing about going down through the gears was for a time when brake linings were made of combustible material and caught fire.

Police driver training is a different kettle of fish altogether, they have different methods of gear selection and even turning, because of their high speeds, most will knock into neutral in fact, so its easier to find other gears if needing to take off quickly again!

javaboy

Alanstrainor wrote: »

It is down to personal preference at the end of the day. But Coasting would be "unecessarily" depressing the clutch. Coming to a stop in a high gear would make it necessary to depress the clutch that bit earlier.

And cycling down the gears would make it "unnecessary" to depress the clutch early. So you could argue that coming to a stop in a high gear is creating a need for unnecessarily early clutching.

There was a poll on this a while back I think in the main motoring forum but I don't think it took account of when/how people learned to drive so the results were probably skewed towards changing down.

When I was learning to drive I was taught to slow down using gears before stopping and that's what I did in my test, but then when my husband was doing his test he was told not to do this, and to just stop in whatever gear you're in......

andrewh5

macroman wrote: »

Old driving instructor frowned upon cycling down gears in advance of junction i.e. Roundabout, new one encourages it (and I prefer it TBH). If you have to stop immediately clutch and brake, or if you're going to fast in approach to a junction stop in a high gear, but if I can anticipate it I cycle down to second.

All you are doing is increasing clutch wear and making work for yourself. Brake down until you can see if it safe to proceed, then select the appropriate gear and move off. It is simple really. No driving instructor should be teaching going down through the gears in this day and age. Do it in a UK test now and you get failed.

tantipie

ya im the same as poster above me,,,,i learnt to come down in gears,,but others after me were told to just stop in whatever gear they in,,so thats what i do now:)

ok not poster aboove me now,,lol whoopsydaisy's post,,

Shurwhynot

Say if your approaching a red light and you've dropped down to second and the light goes green you obviously shouldn't have the clutch depressed am i right? Last time i went through a roundabout i got my gears totally wrong and the car shuddered and stalled in the middle of the bloody roundabout!

And if crawling along would you stay in 2nd gear and only when you stop, shift into first for taking off?

Sorry...total beginner here!

andrewh5

Shurwhynot wrote: »

Say if your approaching a red light and you've dropped down to second and the light goes green you obviously shouldn't have the clutch depressed am i right? Last time i went through a roundabout i got my gears totally wrong and the car shuddered and stalled in the middle of the bloody roundabout!

And if crawling along would you stay in 2nd gear and only when you stop, shift into first for taking off?

Sorry...total beginner here!

If you are approaching lights in fourth and the lights change it is simple enough to drop from fourth to second and pull off. Roundabouts generally are taken in third although some need second. Yes you do stay in second if crawling.

BTW I sincerely hope you are NOT driving unaccompanied.

bonkey

Some points to consider...

Some people have mentioned shifting down through the gears to help "engine-brake" the car. While it is true that lower gears have a greater braking effect, there are some counter-points to consider:

1) Downshifting - by its very nature - requires that the car be out of gear whilst shifting. No engine-braking at all during those periods.

2) Remaining in one gear means there is a constant engine-braking effect the whole time. Thus, all of your braking control (until the car is so slow you need to clutch) lies in the brake-pedal. This is much simpler to get used to (honestly!) than the changing-rate engine-braking of (say) 4th gear / out of gear / 3rd gear / out of gear / second gear.

javaboy asked if it would require lots of clutch control to keep the car from "juddering", in effect coasting to a stop. In a modern (petrol) car, the answer should be that no, it doesn't. You should only need to depress the clutch over at most the last car-length of braking distance (at least in my experience).

javaboy also mentioned that cycling down the gears would make it "unnecessary" to depress the clutch early. In one sense this is true...the final depression of the clutch might come some 1/4-to-1/2-car-length later. On the other hand, it would make it absolutely necessary to depress the clutch earlier (if one considers when the clutch is first depressed after the start of the braking manouever) and more often

At the end of the day, I side with Alanstrainor in that its a matter of personal preference, with the caveat that the car you drive may have some influence on things.

My advice in general, if you are skeptical of non-down-shifting would be to try it and see. There were a lot of things I was taught in a modern mini cooper that I insisted would never work in the more-than-20-year-old 205 I had at the time. Then I went and actually tried them.

Alanstrainor

javaboy wrote: »

And cycling down the gears would make it "unnecessary" to depress the clutch early. So you could argue that coming to a stop in a high gear is creating a need for unnecessarily early clutching.

As bonkey mentioned. The distance traveled while depressing the clutch in a high gear really is negligible compared to that when in a lower gear. It could be argued that you have to coast to come to a stop, that is if you're going on the "coasting is moving while the clutch is depressed" definition.
The funny thing is, is that, this time last year i would have been siding with those who prefer to cycle through the gears when coming to a complete stop, it was only after i decided to try it that i realised the advantages of it.
Just to clarify, For test purposes, both stopping in a high gear and cycling through the gears when coming to a complete stop are perfectly acceptable.