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Is there an Official list of dead + Official Memorial for National Army troops?
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I was thinking recently, is there an official list available of National Army troops killed during the Civil War? Also, is there any sort of official memorial to them?
Thanks:)
Take It Down From The Mast
Take it down from the mast, Irish traitors,
It's the flag we republicans claim,
It can never belong to Free Staters,
For you've brought on it nothing but shame.
Why not leave it to those who are willing,
To uphold it in war and in peace,
To the men who intend to do killing,
Until England's tyrannies cease.
So take it down from the mast, Irish traitors,
It's the flag we republicans claim,
It can never belong to Free Staters,
For you've brought on it nothing but shame.
What aspect of the Civil War that appeals to you Eroo ? Was it the absoulutely diabolical murder of Liam Mellows, Rory O'Connor, Joe McKelvey and Richard Barrett even though the four men were in prison at the time of the killing of a TD and had obvioulsy nothing to do with it, were dragged out of their cells in Mountjoy and shot dead, each representing the province they came from. To show just how corrupt and depraved Kevin O'Higgins * and the Free State administration were, Rory O'Connor had been best man at O'Higgins' wedding just a few months earlier.
* ( he had been a member of Redmond's IPP, denounced 1916, but later joined Sinn Fein as he seen they were the coming force )0 -
McArmalite wrote: »What aspect of the Civil War that appeals to you Eroo ? Was it the absoulutely diabolical murder of Liam Mellows, Rory O'Connor, Joe McKelvey and Richard Barrett even though the four men were in prison at the time of the killing of a TD and had obvioulsy nothing to do with it, were dragged out of their cells in Mountjoy and shot dead, each representing the province they came from. To show just how corrupt and depraved Kevin O'Higgins * and the Free State administration were, Rory O'Connor had been best man at O'Higgins' wedding just a few months earlier.
* ( he had been a member of Redmond's IPP, denounced 1916, but later joined Sinn Fein as he seen they were the coming force )
I didn't ask for your opinion, not many people do McArmalite. I asked about a memorial and list.
Despite your usual arguments, you fail to note O'Connor and the other Republican commanders openly rejected the democratic will of the majority. O'Connor even spoke of setting up a military dictatorship. They were dreamers, idealists. Collins, Griffith, Cosgrave, O'Higgin's etc were realists. They knew what could and could not be achieved through continuing fighting the Westminster.
Can I just state right now, I have no interest in further pursuing this argument. Nip it in the bud please. I didn't ask for any opinions, just as I said already. Re-read my first post please.0 -
I didn't ask for your opinion, not many people do McArmalite. I asked about a memorial and list.
Well since this is a discussion forum, since you mentioned the ' National/Free State army ' I only queried why you think they and the period should deserve an unquestioning memorial.Despite your usual arguments, you fail to note O'Connor and the other Republican commanders openly rejected the democratic will of the majority. O'Connor even spoke of setting up a military dictatorship. They were dreamers, idealists. Collins, Griffith, Cosgrave, O'Higgin's etc were realists. They knew what could and could not be achieved through continuing fighting the Westminster.) on the moring of the vote, THEORETICALLY it can be said the people knew what they were voting for, reality wise it was a mega lie to deceive and manipulate the public. If the great, honest founding fathers of the state had nothing to hide, why did they just publish the contents on the morning of the vote ?? And given that the distributuion of newspapers in those days was obviously a hap hazard affair - could it really be said that the people were presented with the full details ??
And secondly - IRELAND HAS NEVER BEEN ALLOWED TO DECIDE IF WE WANT bRITISH OCCUPATION IN ANY PART OF OUR COUNTRY. It was not a vote to decide that Ireland should be partitiioned and british occupation survive, it was a british ultimatim of brit rule to stay in the six counties, take it or leave it. The winning side of a war does not dictate the terms.
AND MOST IMPORTANTLY - those who were the most vunerable - the nationalists in what was to become the six county secterian gerryamnder - to unionist and british thuggery were abonded. The thugery of the Black and Tans etc was nothing compared to the open pograms across the north - with the lovely lads from England etc leading them on their destruction, looting and murder. And what was the Free State doing while all this statred...... atttacking the IRA in the Four Courts and across Dublin with british supplied artillery and rifles. But then, that's what their british masters demanded of them, it's amazing that their are those who try and portray it as a great step in Irelands struggle for independence.Can I just state right now, I have no interest in further pursuing this argument. Nip it in the bud please. I didn't ask for any opinions, just as I said already. Re-read my first post please.
No eroo, you didn't ask for my opinions, nor indeed anyone else's, I'm just making the point that their is serious questions to be asked about the National/Free State Army and how ' glorious ' their actions were. I for one cannot see how Irishmen attacking and murdering Irishmen at the request of the English war criminal Winston Churchill should be regarded as unquestionably right.
" To the men who intend to do killing, until Englands tyrannies cease "0 -
I was thinking recently, is there an official list available of National Army troops killed during the Civil War? Also, is there any sort of official memorial to them?
Thanks:)
speak to the adminstrator in collins barracks musuem. if you went into the musuem (maybe you have) there is two touch screen computers in the area where the republican flag (gpo 1916) and connolly's vest is stored. one computer gives a complete list of all those who fought during 1916, their rank and battalion(gives some sort of closure to the numerous claims by barstoolers who claim their granfather etc fought in the war - from so many claims i have heard, it seems half of dublin had relations in the gpo alone lol, bit like that claim that so many where in thomond park the day munster beat new zealand) the other computer briefly seems to list people who died fighting in ww1 and ww2. i think the national archives website my also be worth looking at
it might take lots of research, but would be rewarable, i feel collins barracks might be a start. have a look in arbour hill cementary (near smithfield) where pearse & co are buried, there are slabs near their graves of men and men who died in 1916, their might be something their for civil war.
i would not be hughely certain if their actually is a war memorial solely dedicated to victims of civil war, despite the length of time, the wounds are still too open, particualarily with bitterness, delusionment and resentiment with what was allowed to happen in the north over the years.
all though you did not ask, i have tried to live you a link with a list of people who were executed in south of ireland from 1900-1940's (you will see the firing squad people are irregulars/ira during civil war) all though i do not remember where i got it from i know for 100% certainty most of it is accurate, particularily those murdered/executed/killed in athlone barracks
(extract from website)
"There were 164 executions in Southern Ireland during the 20th century. Twelve men and one woman were hanged under British civil jurisdiction between 1900 and 1911. Thereafter, there were no more executions for civilian crimes under British rule. However, 15 men were executed by firing squad for treason, under British jurisdiction, for their parts in the 1916 Easter Rebellion. (see below).
There were 25 executions under British jurisdiction during the War of Independence (1918 - 1921) and a further 77 under the jurisdiction of the Free State Authorities during the Irish Civil War (1922-1924) with, in total, 91 men shot and 11 hanged. In September 1922, the Dáil (parliament) Resolution passed a resolution providing for the death penalty for terrorist offences, following trial by military tribunal. As a result, the provisional “26 counties” government executed 75 people in the 6 months from November 1922 to April 1923, all by firing squad at various locations.
Thirty five people, including one woman, were hanged for murder between 1924 (after Ireland had achieved independence) and 1954 when Michael Manning became the last person to be executed in Ireland. Annie Walsh of Co. Limerick was executed on the 5th of August 1925 at Dublin’s Mountjoy prison for the murder of her husband. (The British administration had reprieved all 6 females sentenced to death in the 17 years prior to independence).
Twenty five year old Michael Manning became the last to be executed, for the murder of Catherine Cooper, an elderly nurse. All these executions were carried out by the serving British hangman of the day, who was always an unpopular figure in Ireland.
Capital punishment was partially abolished in 1964, for all but a few very specific forms of murder, notably the murder of police officers (the Garda) or prison officers. The Dáil finally abolished it completely in 1990, when new legislation created a 40 year minimum prison term for exceptional murders. The last to be sentenced to death were Noel Callen and Michael McHugh for the murder of Garda Patrick Morrissey after a robbery in County Louth in 1985. Noel and Marie Murray came close to being the last to be executed, having been convicted of the capital murder of Garda Michael Reynolds, following an armed bank robbery in Dublin in 1975. They both refused to seek clemency, so to avoid international embarrassment, the president decided to impose it upon them whether they wanted it or not. On the 1st of November 1976, the Supreme Court quashed Noel’s capital murder conviction and substituted one of common murder and ordered a re-trial for Marie in 1977 - this time she too was found guilty only of common murder. They were both released in 1992. Of the 11 people who received death sentences in Eire in the 1970's and 1980's, all have been released except the last two who were sentenced in 1985 - but they will never serve 40 years under the provisions of the European Convention on Human Rights, as a judge did not determine the sentence.
Day
Date
Name
Age
Place
Victim
Hangman
Tue
10/04/1900
Patrick Dunphy
34
Waterford
Child
Thomas Scott
Fri
11/01/1901
Timothy Cadogan
Cork
Land agent
James Billington
Thur
07/03/1901
John Toole
Dublin
Wife
Thomas Scott
Wed
23/04/1902
Thomas Keeley
28
Galway
Landlady
William Billington
Tue
30/12/1902
James Docherty
65
Sligo
Son
William Billington
Wed
07/01/1903
Joseph Taylor &
Mary Daly
25
Kilkenny
Mr. Daly
William Billington
Fri
09/01/1903
40
Tullamore
Husband
William Billington
Tue
05/01/1904
Joseph Moran
Londonderry
Rose McCann
William Billington
Thur
14/04/1904
James Campion
Kilkenny
Wife
William Billington
Fri
15/04/1904
John Kelly
Kilkenny
Wife
William Billington
Tue
25/04/1905
John Foster
Cork
Soldier
William Billington
Tue
04/01/1910
Joseph Hefferman
27
Dublin
Woman
Henry Pierrepoint
Wed
04/01/1911
William Scanlan
Cork
Sister in law
John Ellis
Thur
29/11/1923
William Downs
25
Dublin
Police officer
John Ellis
Wed
12/12/1923
Thomas Delaney
38
Dublin
Patrick Hogan
Tom Pierrepoint
Wed
12/12/1923
Thomas M' Donagh
42
Dublin
Ellen Rogers
Tom Pierrepoint
Sat
15/12/1923
Peter Hynes
40
Dublin
Thomas Grimstone
Tom Pierrepoint
Thur
13/03/1924
Jeremiah Gaffney
23
Dublin
Thomas Brosnan
Tom Pierrepoint
Fri
01/08/1924
Felix McMullen
26
Dublin
Patrick O’Hallaranr
Tom Pierrepoint
Tue
28/07/1925
Cornelius O' Lleary
40
Dublin
Patrick O’Leary (brother)
Tom Pierrepoint
Wed
05/08/1925
Michael Talbot &
Annie Walsh
24
Dublin
Edward Walsh
Tom Pierrepoint
Wed
05/08/1925
31
Dublin
Husband
Tom Pierrepoint
Thur
15/07/1926
James Myles
22
Dublin
John Smith Snr, & Jnr
Tom Pierrepoint
Wed
24/11/1926
James M' Hugh
31
Dublin
William Dollinson
Tom Pierrepoint
Thur
09/12/1926
Henry M' Cabe
48
Dublin
McDonnell family
Tom Pierrepoint
Thur
29/12/1927
William O' Neill
19
Dublin
Mary Farrell
Tom Pierrepoint
Wed
29/08/1928
Gerard Toal
18
Dublin
Mary Callan
Tom Pierrepoint
Thur
25/04/1929
John Cox
33
Dublin
Jacon Kuntz
Tom Pierrepoint
Thur
04/08/1931
David O'Shea
34
Dublin
Ellen O’Sullivan
Tom Pierrepoint
Thur
29/12/1932
Patrick McDermott
26
Dublin
John McDermott
Tom Pierrepoint
Fri
05/01/1934
John Fleming
32
Dublin
Wife, Ellen
Tom Pierrepoint
Fri
17/06/1937
John Hornick
Dublin
James Redmond
Tom Pierrepoint
Sat
07/01/1939
Dermot Smith
33
Dublin
Cornelius Dennehey
Tom Pierrepoint
Fri
06/09/1940
Patrick McGrath
Dublin
I.R.A. murder
Firing squad
Fri
06/09/1940
Thomas Harte (Green)
Dublin
I.R.A. murder
Firing squad
Tue
07/01/1941
Daniel Doherty
29
Dublin
Hannah Doherty
Tom Pierrepoint
Wed
23/04/1941
Henry Gleeson
39
Dublin
Mary McCarthy
Tom Pierrepoint
Sat
09/08/1941
Richard Goss
26
Maryborough
(Portlaoise)
Shot at police
Firing squad
Thur
18/12/1941
Patrick Kelly
31
Dublin
Mary Breheny
Tom Pierrepoint
Thur
05/03/1942
George Plant
38
Maryborough
(Portlaoise)
Michael Devereux
Firing squad
Thur
12/11/1942
Maurice O' Neill
Dublin
Shot at police
Firing squad
Wed
02/06/1943
Bernard Kirwan
39
Dublin
Brother, Lawrence
Tom Pierrepoint
Thur
12/08/1943
William O' Shea
24
Dublin
Wife, Maureen
Tom Pierrepoint
Fri
01/12/1944
Charles Kerins
Dublin
Denis O’Brien
Tom Pierrepoint
Mon
19/03/1945
James Lehman
Dublin
Wife, Margaret
Albert Pierrepoint
Mon
31/03/1947
Joseph McManus
41
Dublin
Alice Gerard
Albert Pierrepoint
Wed
24/11/1948
William Gambon
28
Dublin
John Long
Albert Pierrepoint
Tue
20/04/1954
Michael Manning
25
Dublin
Catherine Cooper
Albert Pierrepoint
The Easter Rebellion.
In May 1916, 14 men were shot by firing squad in the Quarry Yard at Dublin’s Kilmainham prison and one more (Thomas Kent) at Cork Barracks, having been convicted of treason for their parts in the 1916 Easter Rebellion. Plaques mark the place where these executions were carried out within Kilmainham.
Tom Clarke
Wednesday 3rd May
Thomas MacDonagh
Wednesday 3rd May
Padraic Pearse
Wednesday 3rd May
Joseph Mary Plunkett
Thursday 4th May
William Pearse
Thursday 4th May
Edward Daly
Thursday 4th May
Michael O'Hanrahan
Thursday 4th May
John MacBride
Friday 5th May
Eamonn Ceannt
Monday 8th May
Michael Mallin
Monday 8th May
Conn Colbert
Monday 8th May
Sean Heuston
Monday 8th May
Thomas Kent
Tuesday 9th May
Sean MacDiarmada
Friday 12th May
James Connolly
Friday 12th May
Dublin’s prisons.
Mountjoy prison, built in 1851 on what is now Dublin’s North Circular Road, was the scene of 24 of the 20th century hangings. These took place in the two story "hanghouse" at the end of D Wing. The gallows chamber was on the first floor and was destroyed in a prison riot in the 1970’s. Mountjoy’s first execution was that of John Toole in 1901. Previously, Dublin executions had been carried out at Kilmainham jail (in public up to 1868, on the first floor balcony over the main door) or at Newgate Prison in Green Street. This was the prison for the City of Dublin while Kilmainham served as the prison for the County of Dublin. Newgate has been demolished and is now a public park. It is said that the underground dungeons may still exist under the park. The gallows at Newgate was very similar to that of Kilmainham and was also located over the front door. The hanghouse at Kilmainham is believed to have been built from bricks salvaged from the old condemned cells that stood in one of the jail's yards. Newgate and Kilmainham prisons both carried public executions at the same period.
Kilmainham ceased to be a civilian prison in 1910. The executions of the Irish Invincibles, Joseph Brady, Tim Kelly, Michael Fagan, Daniel Curley and Thomas Caffrey, took place within its walls on the 14th of May 1883. These men had been convicted of the murders on the 6th of May 1882, of Lord Frederick Cavendish, British secretary for Ireland, and Thomas Henry Burke, his under-secretary, in Dublin’s Phoenix Park. Due to the political nature of the crime, security was tight and Kilmainham prison was surrounded by Grenadier Guards, infantry and police while William Marwood went about his work on a gallows erected in one of the prison yards. Kilmainham Jail has been restored and is now open to the public. It is a fascinating place to visit. For more on Kilmainham have a look at http://kilmainham.blogspot.com/
The Irish War of Independence & Civil War period.
102 executions were carried out during the Irish War of Independence and the Civil War for terrorist murders and treason. Most of these were by military firing squad and were typically carried out in batches. John Ellis and Thomas Pierrepoint carried out the hangings in Mountjoy prison, as they were the U. K.’s principal executioners at the time.
Day
Date
Name
Place
Method
Hangman
Mon
01/11/1920
Kevin Barry
Dublin (Mountjoy)
Hanging
John Ellis
Tue
01/02/1921
Cornelius Murphy
Cork
Firing squad
Mon
28/02/1921
John Allen
Cork
Firing squad
“ “
Thomas O'Brien
Cork
Firing squad
“
“
Daniel Callaghan
Cork
Firing squad
“
“
John Lyons
Cork
Firing squad
“
“
Timothy McCarthy
Cork
Firing squad
“
“
Patrick Mahoney
Cork
Firing squad
Mon
14/03/1921
Thomas Whelan
Dublin (Mountjoy)
Hanging
John Ellis
“
“
Patrick Moran
Dublin (Mountjoy)
Hanging
John Ellis
“
“
Patrick Doyle
Dublin (Mountjoy)
Hanging
John Ellis
“
“
Bernard Ryan
Dublin (Mountjoy)
Hanging
John Ellis
“
“
Thomas Bryan
Dublin (Mountjoy)
Hanging
John Ellis
“
“
Frank Flood
Dublin (Mountjoy)
Hanging
John Ellis
Mon
25/04/1921
Thomas Traynor
Dublin (Mountjoy)
Hanging
John Ellis
Thursday
28/04/1921
Maurice Moore
Cork
Firing squad
“
“
Patrick O'Sullivan
Cork
Firing squad
“
“
Patrick Ronayne
Cork
Firing squad
“
“
Thomas Mulcahy
Cork
Firing squad
Mon
02/05/1921
Patrick Casey
Cork
Firing squad
Mon
16/05/1921
Daniel O'Brien
Cork
Firing squad
Mon
06/06/1921
Thomas Keane
Limerick
Firing squad
Tue
07/06/1921
Patrick Maher
Dublin (Mountjoy)
Hanging
Tom Pierrepoint
“
“
Edmund Foley
Dublin (Mountjoy)
Hanging
Tom Pierrepoint
“
“
William Mitchel
Dublin (Mountjoy)
Hanging
Tom Pierrepoint
Fri
“
Peter Cassidy
Dublin (Kilmainham)
Firing squad
“
“
Richard Tuohy
Dublin (Kilmainham)
Firing squad
“
“
John Gaffney
Dublin (Kilmainham)
Firing squad
“
“
James Fisher
Dublin (Kilmainham)
Firing squad
Fri
24/11/1922
Erskin Childers
Dublin
Firing squad
Thurs
30/11/1922
Joseph Spooner
Dublin
Firing squad
“
“
Patrick Farrally
Dublin
Firing squad
“
“
John Murphy
Dublin
Firing squad
Fri
08/12/1922
Rory O'Connor
Dublin (Mountjoy)
Firing squad
“
“
Liam Mellows
Dublin (Mountjoy)
Firing squad
“
“
Joseph McKelvey
Dublin (Mountjoy)
Firing squad
“
“
Richard Barrett
Dublin (Mountjoy)
Firing squad
“
“
Stephen White
Dublin
Firing squad
“
“
Joseph Johnstone
Dublin
Firing squad
“
“
Patrick Mangan
Dublin
Firing squad
“
“
Patrick Nolan
Dublin
Firing squad
“
“
Brian Moore
Dublin
Firing squad
“
“
James O'Connor
Dublin
Firing squad
“
“
Patrick Bagrel
Dublin
Firing squad
Fri
29/12/1922.
John Phelan
Dublin
Firing squad
John Murphy
Dublin
Firing squad
Mon
08/01/1923
Ley Dowling
Dublin
Firing squad
“
“
Sylvestor Heaney
Dublin
Firing squad
“
“
Lawrence Sheehy
Dublin
Firing squad
“
“
Anthony O' Reilly
Dublin
Firing squad
“
“
Terence Brady
Dublin
Firing squad
Fri
12/01/1923
Thomas McKeown
Dundalk
Firing squad
“
“
Thomas Murray
Dundalk
Firing squad
“
“
Thomas Murphy
Dundalk
Firing squad
Mon
15/01/1923
Frederick Burke
Roscrea
Firing squad
“
“
Patrick Russell
Roscrea
Firing squad
“
“
Martin O' Shea
Roscrea
Firing squad
“
“
Patrick Macnamara
Roscrea
Firing squad
“
“
James Lilis
Carlow
Firing squad
Sat
20/01/1923
James Daly
Tralee
Firing squad
“
“
John Clifford
Tralee
Firing squad
“
“
Micheal Brosnam
Tralee
Firing squad
“
“
James Hanlon
Tralee
Firing squad
“
“
Cornelius McMahon
Limerick
Firing squad
“
“
Patrick Hennessey
Limerick
Firing squad
“
“
Thomas Hughes
Athlone
Firing squad
“
“
Micheal Walsh
Athlone
Firing squad
“
“
Herbert Collis
Athlone
Firing squad
“
“
Stephen Joyce
Athlone
Firing squad
“
“
Martin Burke
Athlone
Firing squad
Mon
22/01/1923
James Melia (20)
Dundalk
Firing squad
“
“
Thomas Lennon (19)
Dundalk
Firing squad
“
“
Joseph Ferguson (27)
Dundalk
Firing squad
Thur
25/01/1923
Michael Fitzgerald
Waterford
Firing squad
“
“
Patrick O' Reilly
Waterford
Firing squad
Fri
26/01/1923
Patrick Cunningham
Birr
Firing squad
“
“
William Conroy
Birr
Firing squad
“
“
Colum Kelly
Birr
Firing squad
Sat
27/01/1923
Patrick Geraghty
Portlaoise
Firing squad
“
“
Joseph Byrne
Portlaoise
Firing squad
Tue
13/03/1923
Henry Keenan
Mullingar
Firing squad
“
“
Micheal Greery
Mullingar
Firing squad
“
“
James O' Rourke
Dublin
Firing squad
“
“
William Healey
Cork
Firing squad
“
“
James Parle
Wexford
Firing squad
“
“
Patrick Hogan
Wexford
Firing squad
“
“
John Creane
Wexford
Firing squad
Wed
14/03/1923
John Larkin
Drumbere
Firing squad
“
“
Timothy O' Sullivan
Drumbere
Firing squad
“
“
Daniel Enwright
Drumbere
Firing squad
“
“
Charles Daly
Drumbere
Firing squad
Sat
14/04/1923
James O' Malley
Tuam
Firing squad
“
“
Micheal Monaghan
Tuam
Firing squad
“
“
Francis Cunnane
Tuam
Firing squad
“
“
John Newell
Tuam
Firing squad
“
“
John Maguire
Tuam
Firing squad
“
“
Martin Moylan
Tuam
Firing squad
Wed
25/04/1923
Edward Greaney
Tralee
Firing squad
“
“
Reginald Hathaway
Tralee
Firing squad
“
“
James McInery
Tralee
Firing squad
Wed
02/05/1923
Christopher Quin
Ennis
Firing squad
“
“
William Shaughnessey
Ennis
Firing squad0 -
McArmalite wrote: »Well since this is a discussion forum, since you mentioned the ' National/Free State army ' I only queried why you think they and the period should deserve an unquestioning memorial.
Firstly - The Free Sate witheld the details of the treaty until the morning of the vote, it was only published in the unionist newspapers of the time the Irish Times and Independent ( although Sir Anthony's Irish Independent would obvioulsy still be a unionist - 90 years after ' Independence ') on the moring of the vote, THEORETICALLY it can be said the people knew what they were voting for, reality wise it was a mega lie to deceive and manipulate the public. If the great, honest founding fathers of the state had nothing to hide, why did they just publish the contents on the morning of the vote ?? And given that the distributuion of newspapers in those days was obviously a hap hazard affair - could it really be said that the people were presented with the full details ??
And secondly - IRELAND HAS NEVER BEEN ALLOWED TO DECIDE IF WE WANT bRITISH OCCUPATION IN ANY PART OF OUR COUNTRY. It was not a vote to decide that Ireland should be partitiioned and british occupation survive, it was a british ultimatim of brit rule to stay in the six counties, take it or leave it. The winning side of a war does not dictate the terms.
AND MOST IMPORTANTLY - those who were the most vunerable - the nationalists in what was to become the six county secterian gerryamnder - to unionist and british thuggery were abonded. The thugery of the Black and Tans etc was nothing compared to the open pograms across the north - with the lovely lads from England etc leading them on their destruction, looting and murder. And what was the Free State doing while all this statred...... atttacking the IRA in the Four Courts and across Dublin with british supplied artillery and rifles. But then, that's what their british masters demanded of them, it's amazing that their are those who try and portray it as a great step in Irelands struggle for independence.
No eroo, you didn't ask for my opinions, nor indeed anyone else's, I'm just making the point that their is serious questions to be asked about the National/Free State Army and how ' glorious ' their actions were. I for one cannot see how Irishmen attacking and murdering Irishmen at the request of the English war criminal Winston Churchill should be regarded as unquestionably right.
" To the men who intend to do killing, until Englands tyrannies cease "
as usual you forget / refuse to read threads in full and fly off into another tangent, the man asked a question. it is none of your business why he may have more interest in casualties etc of free staters or not. you could have simply suggested or recommended some valuable sources. i see you feel that there might not be such a memorial etc for republicans or even innocent bystanders. well, why dont you investigate that, if its not available, do something constructive
one issue about the free staters or national army death roll (assuming national army is considered by op to be free staters and not the ira/irregualrs), it would be reasonable to assume that records of their deaths and how they died might be a little more assessable and their might actaually have being written documents of it since its the national army.
might be impossible with regard to the other side, i heard the free staters were responsible for extremely hush hush brutality all over the state - eg in kerry getting irregular prisoners to look for landmines and blowing them up etc. those deaths are not types the state would want people to know about.
now for the laughable part, with holding deatils till the morning of the election. are you referring actually confusing yourself to the irish elections of 1922, if so i am really holding my sides here.
1. the terms, conditions etc were well known by the people before the treaty elections, do you really think the dáilers were the only ones debating the treaty ? not everyone was a laizzer faire as we saw in lisbon treaty you know. sure they would have read the papers about the dail debates the previous christmas - january. you are being comepletly disgenious, do you really think people who went against collins and co in the civil war actually paid much heed to the likes of dev? they made their own minds up. britains threat of continued war did not help! secondly, read the actually minutes from the dail in the debate of december 1921, too much time was spent dig in on lesser important issues such as oath rather than important issues like partition and treaty ports(consider dev's solution of what the oath really meant when he entered dail in 1926, compare the irish oath with that of australia, canada and south africa at the time-big difference)
2. what actually did happen was collins initially made a pact with
devalera, in order to ensure sinn fein would stand together united under one banner for the elections- flatforms for candiates were split into the same proportion as that which had voted for and against the treaty in the dail the previous december. (basically the other side promised not to put a competing candiate against the other) this pact was not performed, as craig and westminister went mental, collins, trickly, pulled out of the pact the morning of the election, it was an election pact no more no less.
next, the independent back then, was actually not as unionist as you think, (but then again thinking is not really your thing is it?. the origins of the irish independent newspaper had being set up by nationalists and members of the irish parliamentary party- though admittingy anti parnellites and very critical of 1916 and the ira, until members had a word with them of course) i always thought newspapers were easily obtainable back in those days, its not like those two were the only newspapers of the day. care to provide links with your comments. maybe you should pop down to the library and check the papers of the day. politicans went up and down the country prior to this speaking out about the pros and cons of the treaty. if people were misinformed, and no doubt some probably were (look at lisbon) then the blame falls squarely with dev or other people for not convincing the population that the treaty was bad, that and the people had their own opinions. moreover, you fail to have regard to the fact that people, unfortuantely had their fill with over 6 years of violence. country folk were dying of malnurishment, diseases and the tough and tumle of war fare. some had no more heart to continue fighting, they saw the deal as the best that could be got, they believed in collins (who knew better than dev about the details of the war), others unfortuantely did not seem bothered about partition (look at some people's attitude in threads about united ireland in the politics section)
next, the op made no references or implied no reference that free staters deserved a memorial, he simply asked if there is one. it is quiete possible (maybe not) that he/ she would bulke at the idea that there is one, he/she may share your opinion.
as for the north, not much could be argued against this. but, had collins lived, better efforts would have being made alia war of independence style, to free the north, unlike dev who had well over 50 years to do something about it. both anti and pro treaty units were united in their boarder attacks, there are army papers which will support the notion that collins was planning attacks on the north with guns and ammo given by the british. many ira units in the north during civil war supported collins and the free staters (because of collins's intentions with the north)
lastly, i doubt anyone who looks at the civil war can look at it foundly, for it caused deep division and resentment between people in this side of the state and between us and the 6 counties. thus, reasons why civil war tends to be conveniently forgotten, there were no winners and no glory. anyone who thinks different, is in my opinion a bit of a muppet and completly ignorant of irish history of this time. i0 -
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The reason I asked about a memorial was that those men were Irishmen. They died defending this State against those who would rather have fought the British despite the certaintity of crushing defeat. They died in a horrible conflict. Forget about the poilitics for a moment. They were Irishmen. Irishmen who disagreed with and fought those who ignored the majority's will. Without them, who knows where this State would be!? Yes there was atrocities, but the Irregulars weren't free of any blame either. Just look at their policy of shooting at Army ambulances in Kerry. Or Knocknagoshel.0
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There's quite a few Anti-Treaty soldiers graves and memorials all over the country, but very, very little if any for the dead of the opposite side...
But I think that, Collins Barracks is a good start. There will be a list somewhere for 1921-1922 period.0 -
McArmalite wrote: »Firstly - The Free Sate witheld the details of the treaty until the morning of the vote, it was only published in the unionist newspapers of the time the Irish Times and Independent ( although Sir Anthony's Irish Independent would obvioulsy still be a unionist - 90 years after ' Independence '
) on the moring of the vote, THEORETICALLY it can be said the people knew what they were voting for, reality wise it was a mega lie to deceive and manipulate the public. If the great, honest founding fathers of the state had nothing to hide, why did they just publish the contents on the morning of the vote ?? And given that the distributuion of newspapers in those days was obviously a hap hazard affair - could it really be said that the people were presented with the full details ??
Perhaps they deserve some memorial because they fought (and died) to preserve and create the Irish State most of us live in now. Unless you're on the extreme of Ruari O'Bradaigh and are still at war with the "Free State". Also, they carried out the will of the majority who were sick of conflict. You could argue of course that "the majority have no right to do wrong".
The Irish Independent, pre-Independence, had always been a Nationalist newspaper. As were it's pre-decessors the Daily Irish Indepedent and the Freemans Journal. Go look at the plaque on Abbey Street if your confused about that. The Black and Tan & Civil War IRA did take a dislike to the paper on occassion, but that was simply because this paper had the temerity to criticise some of their actions.0 -
Surely the National Army dead from the civil war were commemorated in the garden of rememberance alongside thiose who fought in the War of Independance? If not then perhaps the memorials are not accessable to membors of the public - ie they are within army barracks.
That said I don't really think there are too many memorials to the Anti-treaty IRA around the country. Perhaps in Kerry, but the was there was in many ways an invasion of the county by an outsider Dublin government. Their local IRA was heavily anti-treaty unlike much of the rest of the country where it was more evenly split.
Personally, I think its too late and probably too devisive to put up any new momuments to either side of the Civil war.0 -
Shutuplaura wrote: »Surely the National Army dead from the civil war were commemorated in the garden of rememberance alongside thiose who fought in the War of Independance? If not then perhaps the memorials are not accessable to membors of the public - ie they are within army barracks.
According to WikipediaThe Garden commemorates freedom fighters from various uprisings, including:
the 1798 rebellion of the Society of United Irishmen
the 1803 rebellion of Robert Emmet
the 1848 rebellion of Young Ireland
the 1867 rising of the Fenian Brotherhood
the 1916 Easter Rising of the Irish Volunteers and the Irish Citizen Army
the 1919-21 Irish War of Independence of the "Old" IRA
I haven't visited the Garden of Remembrance. Does it have named commemorations?
I'd say the closest there is to a memorial to National Army soldiers is the Army Plot in Glasnevin. Locally they appear to have been air brushed from history.Shutuplaura wrote: »That said I don't really think there are too many memorials to the Anti-treaty IRA around the country.
Are you kidding? I can think of 10 or 11 in South Tipperary alone.0 -
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