Is Catholicism Dying Out?

CerebralCortex

Seanot wrote: »

I see your point, But the way soceity is going today there needs to something there.....as in people are searching for happiness in there lives but always seem to just out of reach. The high rate of depresstion mental illnesss, suicide. People are looking for something you can even see online "the weird stuff people do " just to feel valued. Something will crack and Ireland will be fruitful

What do you mean? You think we were less depressed when back in the 50's and 60's theocracy(images of Dev kissing the bishop's hand)? Seriously the arrogance coming from this thread is startling. When will you people realise that what you follow/believe is just that something to be followed, a belief in a belief regardless of truth*. Like someone using valium religion is just an opiate to take the edge of reality and I think people would be better of having belief in themselves. I for one am glad that the RCC is hemorrhaging followers. My two cents.

*Daniel C. Dennett's Breaking the Spell Religion as a natural Phenomenon deals with this concept very well.

CerebralCortex

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

Well, unfortunately for your theory, religion is growing. But let us meet up in 200 years and see who is right.

Well thats not surprising religion is actually quite a natural thing for humans to embrace but that again says nothing about its truth.

CDfm

CerebralCortex wrote: »

Well thats not surprising religion is actually quite a natural thing for humans to embrace but that again says nothing about its truth.

Maybe because its true -spooky eh:eek:

djeddy

--amadeus-- wrote: »

An interesting viewpoint and belief. Mind if I ask why you believe his in the face of what many would feel to be mounting evidence to the contrary?

Seeing the large amount of irish youth attending catholic youth festivals @ home and abroad,

--amadeus--

djeddy wrote: »

Seeing the large amount of irish youth attending catholic youth festivals @ home and abroad,

I see large amounts of Irish youths (15/16 years old) staggering about the streets drunk, high and promiscous the night the Junior Cert results come out. I could extrapolate from that that we are all going to hell in a handcart because the youth of today have no standards or morals.

But then I remember that drunk teens on JC result night is not a representative sample and it is wrong to draw any conclusion from it. Instead I look to statistics, surveys, reports from those who know about these things. And it seems that in fact the youth of today aren't doing anything that my generation didn't do.

So then I understand that big assertions need some form of independent validity or verification. Simply seeing "huge numbers of Irish youths at catholic youth festivals" does not prove....well anything really.

In the teeth of huge evidence that the church in Ireland is in serious (possibly near terminal) decline don't you think it'll take more than a couple of thousand teenagers at a youth festival to turn things around? If there are such huge numbers of devout youths why have vocations (a fairly good measure of just how deep that faith really is) fallen off so sharply in recent years? There were only 2 nuns taking final vows in all of 2007 for example - hardly indicative of a bright future is it?

djeddy

--amadeus-- wrote: »

I see large amounts of Irish youths (15/16 years old) staggering about the streets drunk, high and promiscous the night the Junior Cert results come out. I could extrapolate from that that we are all going to hell in a handcart because the youth of today have no standards or morals.

But then I remember that drunk teens on JC result night is not a representative sample and it is wrong to draw any conclusion from it. Instead I look to statistics, surveys, reports from those who know about these things. And it seems that in fact the youth of today aren't doing anything that my generation didn't do.

So then I understand that big assertions need some form of independent validity or verification. Simply seeing "huge numbers of Irish youths at catholic youth festivals" does not prove....well anything really.

In the teeth of huge evidence that the church in Ireland is in serious (possibly near terminal) decline don't you think it'll take more than a couple of thousand teenagers at a youth festival to turn things around? If there are such huge numbers of devout youths why have vocations (a fairly good measure of just how deep that faith really is) fallen off so sharply in recent years? There were only 2 nuns taking final vows in all of 2007 for example - hardly indicative of a bright future is it?

I understand what you mean,
it'll take more than a couple of thousand teenagers at a youth festival to turn things around?

But @ least it is a start,

The catholic faith needs to be portrayed in a cool and popular way for too days youth and not so young

CerebralCortex

CDfm wrote: »

Maybe because its true -spooky eh:eek:

Which one? All of them?

CerebralCortex

djeddy wrote: »

...The catholic faith needs to be portrayed in a cool and popular way for too days youth and not so young

That probably isn't possible considering the nature of the catholic church as I've experienced it. "Cool" it never was and never will be. Besides it shouldn't need to be portrayed in any way except as it is. And what it is, is an archaic, outdated and irrelevant super meme.

robindch

djeddy wrote: »

The catholic faith needs to be portrayed in a cool and popular way for too days youth and not so young

As CerebralCortex says, catholicism (like most religions) is supposed simply to be, and therefore, not something that's supposed to be amenable in any serious way to different means of portrayal.

It just is.

Unless, you're suggesting that it's not the solid, unchanging ideas-edifice that it claims to be?

djeddy

Unless, you're suggesting that it's not the solid, unchanging ideas-edifice that it claims to be?[/QUOTE]


No,
What i am saying is,
The catholic faith should be portrayed in a modern way (through the mass media) to a modern world

CDfm

djeddy wrote: »

I understand what you mean,
it'll take more than a couple of thousand teenagers at a youth festival to turn things around?

But @ least it is a start,

The catholic faith needs to be portrayed in a cool and popular way for too days youth and not so young

Im with you on this.

Not just portrayed as cool but to be cool.

Catholicism isnt all about beingnerdy or goody goody - it wasnt all about loaves and fishes - there was the with the moneylenders getting a kicking in the temple as well.

Our guy was a tough guy and didnt die in bed with his sandals on- really gruesome death - Hannibal Lecter treated his victims better

Mel Gibson did a great movie on it -that had people fainting and the like and which had Satan played by a woman - it should be released on dvd uncut

what part is uncool - Che Guevara gets better press -was a homocidal maniac and went out with a bullet- so a bit of reality

Cause of death -was gruesome

CerebralCortex

djeddy wrote: »

No,
What i am saying is,
The catholic faith should be portrayed in a modern way (through the mass media) to a modern world

See ewtn or the god channel. What exactly do you mean in a modern way? Its like your suggesting that your brand of belief is a product to be sold.
I can hear the radio ad now:
Catholicism- Belief in our belief is far more modern. Ya!

CDfm see Familly Guy's Passion of the Christ 2 or this. In all seriousness what are you talkin about? No matter which parts of the story you at look at its still doesn't make it any cooler or hip with teh kids. It simply is what is and some people buy it others(young Irish/European people) like myself don't.

CerebralCortex

CDfm wrote: »

which had Satan played by a woman

Thats really what the catholic church is about amongst other organised religions and probably the catholic church's most unattractive quality as a belief system.

philologos

The question should be in effect, is Christianity dying out in Ireland? as opposed to Catholicism. The case is clearly no. I can confirm that PDN's case is very true in relation to the demographic of Evangelical churches in Ireland having attended a few myself in the past, and I can also confirm the growth of my own local Anglican parish. Pews may be emptying out in quite a few churches and I'm not denying that, but the facts of the matter are that Christianity is healthy and alive in this country, and it's not likely that there will be a point where it won't be practiced in this country on a rather large scale.

kelly1

I suggest we keep away from the word cool.

What the Church in Ireland need is strong and visible evangelism. The message needs to get out that the faith is not about restrictions on one's personal behaviour, but that it's about joy, hope, love, mercy, peace and salvation. There should be emphasis on the good news that Jesus Christ is our only saviour, not yoga/new-age, not science, not money or a "make-over".

The Church should be preaching the message that our God is a God of love and Mercy who is ever-ready to forgive our sins and restore peace to our troubled souls. There should be a huge push to rejuventate the practive of going to confession and unburdening oneself of the weight of sin.

There also needs to be proper catechesis. People just don't know the faith.

CerebralCortex

kelly1 wrote: »

I suggest we keep away from the word cool.

What the Church in Ireland need is strong and visible evangelism. The message needs to get out that the faith is not about restrictions on one's personal behaviour, but that it's about joy, hope, love, mercy, peace and salvation. There should be emphasis on the good news that Jesus Christ is our only saviour, not yoga/new-age, not science, not money or a "make-over".

Restrictions? Note the bold above. Your right ye should stay away from the word cool because catholicism certainly is not cool.

kelly1 wrote: »

The Church should be preaching the message that our God is a God of love and Mercy who is ever-ready to forgive our sins and restore peace to our troubled souls. There should be a huge push to rejuventate the practive of going to confession and unburdening oneself of the weight of sin.

There also needs to be proper catechesis. People just don't know the faith.

As long as there are people such as yourself catholicism will never die I guess.

Jannah

evil-monkey wrote: »

unless of course the adversity you have to triumph over was molestation by a Catholic priest...

Ah, now, I think this is possibly one of the most unfair arguments anyone can make. Yes, there was a minority of priests who abused their power, but we can't use this as a basis for being anti-Catholicism. It isn't a practice which is promoted or tolerated within Catholicism and it is up to us to take responsibility for the injustices done through human error. I know what those priests did was terrible, but I also believe that what society did in ignoring it was nearly just as bad.

djeddy wrote: »

IThe catholic faith needs to be portrayed in a cool

Lol, it's been done: http://de.youtube.com/watch?v=959PQ7QSMdw

CerebralCortex wrote: »

And what it is, is an archaic, outdated and irrelevant super meme.

I highly disagree with that. I think that religous texts, when studied properly, are as relevant as ever. We still have the same issues, we're just so used to having things easily whenever we want it and not worrying about the concequences that morals have gone out the window and human life has been cheapened

kelly1 wrote: »

I suggest we keep away from the word cool.

Lol, AMEN!!!!!

kelly1 wrote: »

There also needs to be proper catechesis. People just don't know the faith.

Yes- my religion classes are a joke. We're currently learning about scientology- when exactly is knowing that some lunatic thinks his dyslexia was cured by a bunch of money grabbing con artists going to be useful in our lives?! Even the few religious relations I have really do know very little about religion other than it is right and that it that. I think if we really showed people what Jesus actually had to say on certain issues and the logic behind WHY contraception, abortion and fornication are (supposed to be) forbidden, I think people may look more favourably on the church.

I know its slightly off topic, but does anyone think that religion may have been more popular in the past because it was part of being a 'nationalist' (to a degree)? And do you think that Catholicism is part of what makes the Irish 'Irish' or has it completely divorced itself from our culture?

--amadeus--

Jakkass wrote: »

Christianity is healthy and alive in this country, and it's not likely that there will be a point where it won't be practiced in this country on a rather large scale.

Again the demographic trends strongly suggest otherwise but each person will have thier own agenda and you can twist the figures to suit. I am sure that in some parishes / churches attendence is on teh rise but the general trend amongst the entire population is strongly downwards. My personal belief is that it will fade to a hardcore rump of evancelical believers. That the more casual attender will leave and that those remaining become both more committed and more "extreme" (if thats the appropriate word) in thier belief.

Kelly1 - the trouble is that the message you are talking about is one that people have heard. Again and again and again. And increasing numbers seem to have decided it is not a message they are interested in hearing.

Jannah - I would have thought that the idea of religion class was to emphasis the class part rather than the religion part. In other words to look at comparative religion and learn about religion as a whole rather than evangelically teach teh word of god. Thats what church is for, not the National Curricullum.

philologos

--amadeus-- wrote: »

Again the demographic trends strongly suggest otherwise but each person will have thier own agenda and you can twist the figures to suit. I am sure that in some parishes / churches attendence is on teh rise but the general trend amongst the entire population is strongly downwards. My personal belief is that it will fade to a hardcore rump of evancelical believers. That the more casual attender will leave and that those remaining become both more committed and more "extreme" (if thats the appropriate word) in thier belief.

Really over 100% growth in Pentecostalism between 2002 and 2006 sounds very strong to me, again I could provide statistics to state otherwise in Anglican and other churches too. It's not an exclusive decline.

CerebralCortex

Jannah wrote: »

I highly disagree with that. I think that religous texts, when studied properly, are as relevant as ever. We still have the same issues, we're just so used to having things easily whenever we want it and not worrying about the concequences that morals have gone out the window and human life has been cheapened.

I'd say your evidence for "we" (whoever that is) being used to having things whenever we want it and that morals and human life being cheapened is completely anecdotal and a poor excuse for why religion is relevant or even necessary and thats me not even going into whether religion holds any truth which it doesn't.

Jannah wrote: »

I know its slightly off topic, but does anyone think that religion may have been more popular in the past because it was part of being a 'nationalist' (to a degree)? And do you think that Catholicism is part of what makes the Irish 'Irish' or has it completely divorced itself from our culture?

I think the catholic church were laughin all the way to bank with the political history of Ireland. Actually I think catholicism in Ireland to a large extent is cultural i.e. a community of non protestants against protestants aka the English I maybe mistaken but I have been assumed to be catholic due to the fact I'm Irish which saddens me.

philologos

That mentality hasn't really ever been propogated around me. It's a really ridiculous understanding to be honest with you. I'm one of those who would be considered Protestant, but I am no less "Irish" than anyone else.

CerebralCortex

Jakkass wrote: »

That mentality hasn't really ever been propogated around me. It's a really ridiculous understanding to be honest with you. I'm one of those who would be considered Protestant, but I am no less "Irish" than anyone else.

I never said you were and I deplore it just as much as you do. Some of my best friends have protestant backgrounds and I consider them no less Irish. However my experience amongst Irish catholics growing up has been that the Irish were persecuted catholics, and the RCC rode that wave if you ask me.

Seanot

CerebralCortex wrote: »

When will you people realise that what you follow/believe is just that something to be followed, a belief in a belief regardless of truth*. Like someone using valium religion is just an opiate to take the edge of reality and I think people would be better of having belief in themselves. I for one am glad that the RCC is hemorrhaging followers. My two cents.

*Daniel C. Dennett's Breaking the Spell Religion as a natural Phenomenon deals with this concept very well.

Look the discussion here is not whether religion is the truth!!!(I appreciate you are only giving your view but please refrain from bashing peoples beliefs). I have no problem with people not believing and never force my views on anyone.


I agree the faith/church has been lost in Ireland ......The church today in Ireland is dying, people have no interest in what faith or God , and the church itself knows what is happening. Irish people were brought up to fear god, but this totally the opposite to churches message today, LOVE.


Ireland will probably go to the extreme and lose the church completely but it will come back. There is a strong wave of evangelisation going on around the world, many countries in south America and china are on the rise, I’m not saying this to defend but to tell you that maybe the church needs to be lost, to find the real church( loving church etc..) not to force people but to give the opportunity for people to have this strong link with god when there at their lowest point in their everyday lives.


People don’t have to go to church to believe. Allot of people have become disheartened with the church (sex scandals) but rightly so!! This is the church. But to have this faith/link with god can help you in your life, nothing to do with the church or priests but for you. To be a Christian is to help others not to force beliefs or anything like this. Look at our world today.....

--amadeus--

Jakkass wrote: »

Really over 100% growth in Pentecostalism between 2002 and 2006 sounds very strong to me, again I could provide statistics to state otherwise in Anglican and other churches too. It's not an exclusive decline.

A church with one person being joined by one other person can report a 100% increase. Pentecostalism would not have had a particulalrly strong presence here historically (numebrs wise in comparison with RCC & CoI). It would however be quite a strong church with many of our new immigrants which may explain the sudden growth in this and other denominations.

Because catholisism is so strong here we can make educated guesses at the headcount drop involved in the decline in attendence from 90%+ to around 60% today. My uderstanding s that c. 90% of the c. 4 million population claimed to be RC in the late 80's early 90s (very rough numbers for ease of calculation) with c. 90% mass attendance. That would equate to roughly 3.24 million attending mass on sunday (90% of 4m is 3.6m, 90% of that is 3.24m). Assuming that the proportion of Catholics has stayed at 90% (which I doubt) but that mass attendance is now 60% that would mean that only 2.16m attend mass.

Thats a drop of over 1 million people and all of this can be backed up with links to surveys and statistics. That's not a great trend!

Now I have no doubt that the more evangelical denominations are growing - it fits my theory of religion going to a more "extreme" rump - but I would be interested to know if the total headcount has grown by anything close to a million? Do you have any figures or estimates on actual (rather than %) growth?

CerebralCortex

Seanot wrote: »

People don’t have to go to church to believe. Allot of people have become disheartened with the church (sex scandals) but rightly so!! This is the church. But to have this faith/link with god can help you in your life, nothing to do with the church or priests but for you. To be a Christian is to help others not to force beliefs or anything like this. Look at our world today.....

Are you addressing me because I'm doing pretty well without your god? When I mention arrogance this is what I mean. BTW it has everything to do with truth you think RCC will make a come back because you believe in its truth but a rising number of people don't see it as truth hence the decline in faith in favour of just getting on with one's life.

evil-monkey

put the actual content, the actual religion itself aside, people are focusing on that far too much. for whatever reason, Catholicism in Ireland is dying, it is. the sooner the Church realise this, the better.

so there are a couple of thousand teenagers at a Christian festival - a couple of thousand teenagers is not a lot of teenagers.

50 years ago, masses were packed to the rafters. 50 years on, they are not. who here genuinely believes that in another 50 years they won't have declined further? I would certainly be of the opinion that the decline is only going to continue, as the figures would suggest.

CerebralCortex

evil-monkey wrote: »

.....50 years ago, masses were packed to the rafters. 50 years on, they are not. who here genuinely believes that in another 50 years they won't have declined further? I would certainly be of the opinion that the decline is only going to continue, as the figures would suggest.

Every empire falls.

5uspect

CSO stats for Religion

Catholicism numbers are plotted on the right axis siice there are so bloody many of them.

Misc category includes:
Presbyterian
Methodist
Jewish
Other
but not specifically Muslim

Fanny Cradock

--amadeus-- wrote: »

Wow, sweeping assertion.

Every single statistic I have seen points to the opposite, in terms of total attendence globally and in the developed world in particular everything I have seen points to dwindling numbers. Even more so withing the frame of reference of this thread (Irish catholisism). I posted links earlier in the thread to back up my claim that religion is a fast fading force in this country perhaps you could provide some evidence that religion is growing.

(Unles of course you are refering to religious extremism, which does indeed seem to be on the rise)

Though it is tricky to determine exact figures, the sources I've seen clearly suggest that there is a steady growth rate in world religions. The obvious problem that I'm aware of when trying to establish growth rates is successfully separating the % rates of converts and the natural growth rates of, for example, the Muslim or Christian population in a particular region.

However, with regards to Christianity there has been a definite southern shift in the base of it's adherence. And while Europe has undoubtedly entered a post-Christian era, the majority of the world shows an increase in religion at large, including Christianity.

CerebralCortex wrote: »

Well thats not surprising religion is actually quite a natural thing for humans to embrace but that again says nothing about its truth.

Indeed. And I never suggested that it did. But it cuts both ways. The decline of Christianity in Europe says nothing about its truth.

MrPudding

kelly1 wrote: »

The message needs to get out that the faith is not about restrictions on one's personal behaviour,

Well, not just about restrictions on one's personal behaviour...

MrP

djeddy

CDfm wrote: »

Im with you on this.

Not just portrayed as cool but to be cool.

Catholicism isnt all about beingnerdy or goody goody - it wasnt all about loaves and fishes - there was the with the moneylenders getting a kicking in the temple as well.

Our guy was a tough guy and didnt die in bed with his sandals on- really gruesome death - Hannibal Lecter treated his victims better

Mel Gibson did a great movie on it -that had people fainting and the like and which had Satan played by a woman - it should be released on dvd uncut

what part is uncool - Che Guevara gets better press -was a homocidal maniac and went out with a bullet- so a bit of reality

Cause of death -was gruesome

You are right ,
Catholicism is far from being nerdy or goody goody,
It is strict but that is for our good,

(Cool to be catholic)

Mels film was fab, fair credit to him for makeing the passion,

Not like the stupit misguided so called artists who go out of their way to try and mock jesus christ and the church he founded,

evil-monkey

CerebralCortex wrote: »

Every empire falls.

and this one, in Ireland at least, is certainly falling...

5uspect wrote: »

CSO stats for Religion

Catholicism numbers are plotted on the right axis siice there are so bloody many of them.

Misc category includes:
Presbyterian
Methodist
Jewish
Other
but not specifically Muslim

ya but you see, the "number of Catholics" in Ireland is totally different to the number of practising Catholics. Pretty much everyone I know, myself included, was born and raised a Catholic. We went through all the motions as Catholics because it was what we were told to do at home and in school. But now, since we have all entered the over-20 age group, I only have one friend that is a practising Catholic. So while were are all, in the eyes of the CSO, Catholics, none of us are, in fact, Catholics.

--amadeus--

evil-monkey wrote: »

ya but you see, the "number of Catholics" in Ireland is totally different to the number of practising Catholics. Pretty much everyone I know, myself included, was born and raised a Catholic. We went through all the motions as Catholics because it was what we were told to do at home and in school. But now, since we have all entered the over-20 age group, I only have one friend that is a practising Catholic. So while were are all, in the eyes of the CSO, Catholics, none of us are, in fact, Catholics.

That chart is meaningless. Add together all the denominations in the final segment, it's only about 95%, so there is a missing tranch.

Likewise the data changes are impossible - these are parts of a whole so for one category to increase from year to year another catgory (or categories) must fall by an equal amount. In the final segment (2001 to the final, unnamed data point) No Response drops by a fraction of a percentage but everything else ratchets up. Well for catholisism to have increased by c. 5% as shown the other categories have to drop.

Unless I am totally misreading teh data (always possible!)

[edit] actually he mentions that Misc isn't "specifically Muslim", maybe he has excluded non christians? But why include Jewish?? Still doesn't make sense!)

evil-monkey

--amadeus-- wrote: »

That chart is meaningless. Add together all the denominations in the final segment, it's only about 95%, so there is a missing tranch.

Likewise the data changes are impossible - these are parts of a whole so for one category to increase from year to year another catgory (or categories) must fall by an equal amount. In the final segment (2001 to the final, unnamed data point) No Response drops by a fraction of a percentage but everything else ratchets up. Well for catholisism to have increased by c. 5% as shown the other categories have to drop.

yes this chart is complete nonsense. but Catholics could gain figures without other religions dropping. more are born - which further reinforces my point; children too young to decide for themselves are deemed as Catholics. what I'd be interested to see is a chart showing the numbers of over-20s that used to be practising Catholics, but now aren't...that would show a very different picture me thinks...

(and on a side note, i don't know why you quoted me there amadeus; i didn't put up that chart and was in fact arguing against it, just as you are)

5uspect

Its far from meaningless, you just don't seem to like the results. (neither do I for that matter). That said this kinda of data isn't hugely reliable. Remember the fuss in Limerick with the last census?

Proper interpretation of the data is important. 85% of the population identify (or are identified as Catholic but clergy numbers have collapsed and church attendance is down. There may be a number of reasons for this:

• The "Mammy effect", who fills out the census?
• They consider themselves Christian which makes them Catholic by default, to move to another religion is like joining a cult and is taboo
• The notion that they must be Catholic to be truly Irish, "but I don't believe in that transubstantiation stuff". Jewish atheism for example.
• They may not identify themselves as members of the Church's organization due to the many scandals, perhaps one reason for declining clergy?
• Economic conditions, hard times bring out the faithful, good times may have more complex results.
• Simple tradition, most people get married in a church, but might rarely go except at Christmas. They don't really think about religion but they're Catholic all the same.
• Its indoctrinated through school and remains throughout lift
• Parental guilt resulting from lapsed catholicism resulting in new found faith for the sake of the children

actually he mentions that Misc isn't "specifically Muslim", maybe he has excluded non christians? But why include Jewish?? Still doesn't make sense!)

Islam has grown significantly in Ireland recently. The census does not has a specific choice for Muslim and it is grouped into other along with all the Jedis and Pastafarians. For clarity I bunched Presbyterian, Methodist, Jewish and Other together.

Of course the percentage of each group that is practicing would be a far more interesting statistic. I would hazard a guess that the Misc groups being minorities would have a stronger sense of their isolation in the greater community and therefore have higher practice rates. Thats begs the question; do religions have a critical mass once a Sunday where the strength of faith becomes lax once population size and economic and social conditions are right.

Dave147

I was at a mass last night for a friends one year anniversary, it was my first time at a normal 'mass' in about 8 or 9 years, only other times I was there were for funerals. I went in with my dad and just sat there for 40 minutes, the priest talked aload of crap for the whole time and made a tiny mention of my friends name at the end.

I remember being forced to go to mass on Sunday mornings 8-10 years ago, absolutely hated the place, never got anything out of it and it was the same every week. Tbh, I hope it dies out.

CDfm

CerebralCortex wrote: »

Thats really what the catholic church is about amongst other organised religions and probably the catholic church's most unattractive quality as a belief system.

Angels -and archangels of which Lucifer or Satan is a fallen one - are androgynous ( of indeterminate sex). If you do find aspects unattractive it would be nice to air your gripes.

I found the portrayal quite apt and contrvercial in rthe movie - but wondered why you chosre my post to make your point.

evil-monkey

5uspect wrote: »

• The "Mammy effect", who fills out the census?

exactly. i think this is the key to this debate.

is the Catholic religion dying in Ireland?? Yes. Why?? Because we're growing up and no longer under the influence of, as the poster put it, the "Mammy Effect". Will the next generation go to mass?? No. Why?? There will be no "Mammy Effect".

the Catholic church in Ireland is dying. I am yet to see any argument here that suggests otherwise. shall we just put this one to bed or is anyone going to argue the OPs original point and claim that the Church, in Ireland, is not dying??

5uspect

evil-monkey wrote: »

Will the next generation go to mass??

Yes, they might still go. Once rebellious teenagers grow up they often embrace their own mammy effect.

evil-monkey

5uspect wrote: »

Yes, they might still go. Once rebellious teenagers grow up they often embrace their own mammy effect.

i don't think it's rebellious teenagers though. i think it's over 20s. i'm 22 now, and of all the people i know around my age, only one of them goes to mass...

Húrin

Well in Ireland it's a combination of the suicide of the Catholic Church (by handing abuse and paedophilia so badly) and the consumerist orgy of the Celtic Tiger convincing the newly rich that money was the root of all happiness.

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

I would think that Catholicism is floundering in Ireland. Indeed, Christianity is largely in retreat throughout Europe. One could argue that Europe's post-Christian landscape is due to enlightenment - the lies of religion being replaced by the truth of materialism. Alternatively one could argue that this decline in belief is simply because our attention is now bent upon the values and rewards of a materialistic outlook.

Haha, it would take some sap to believe the former. Not having noticed any moral improvement in the human condition in recent years, I'd have to go with the latter explanation.

Húrin

ShaShaBear wrote: »

I am a 21 year old woman who has completely read the bible, front to back, and know a lot of priests. I have my own opinions on what part of this religion I take to heart, but I have full researched it.

What's your number?

seriously though, I find our generation so deluded. Not that most of them are up for evaluating the evidence, but just the denial, and the running away from reality that characterises their attitude to Jesus, and a lot of other issues in life as well.

--amadeus-- wrote: »

That is a fairly damning statistic then - seems to reinforce the idea that people only believe out of fear or selfishness, a sort of this world Pascals Wager.

Hardly. I think that prosperity can give people the false impression that they are in full control of their lives. When recession demonstrates that they are not, many lay aside confidence in transient material possessions and place their trust in God instead.

Húrin

evil-monkey wrote: »

50 years ago, masses were packed to the rafters. 50 years on, they are not. who here genuinely believes that in another 50 years they won't have declined further? I would certainly be of the opinion that the decline is only going to continue, as the figures would suggest.

I am expecting the next 50 years, if they happen, to be times of significant economic, political and environmental convulsion (and not for millenialist reasons). What effect this will have on the Catholic Church I don't know, but the last thing I expect is for things to just continue as they are.

CerebralCortex wrote: »

Restrictions? Note the bold above. Your right ye should stay away from the word cool because catholicism certainly is not cool.

You're using the stereotype that kelly1 is dismissing in order to refute him. How odd. He is not implying that Christians should prohibit themselves from involvement in yoga, science or money. He clearly meant that the CoI needs to point out that these things cannot by definition provide the spiritual power and meaning that faith can provide, so it is pointless to seek them in those things.

Jannah wrote: »

I know its slightly off topic, but does anyone think that religion may have been more popular in the past because it was part of being a 'nationalist' (to a degree)? And do you think that Catholicism is part of what makes the Irish 'Irish' or has it completely divorced itself from our culture?

I expect that too was part of it, though I think that anyone who was Catholic for political reasons was missing the point to an almost unimaginable degree!

--amadeus-- wrote: »

Now I have no doubt that the more evangelical denominations are growing - it fits my theory of religion going to a more "extreme" rump

So how much experience or knowledge of any kind do you have to assume that evangelical denominations are extreme? Extreme in what way?

CDfm

CerebralCortex wrote: »

Are you addressing me because I'm doing pretty well without your god? When I mention arrogance this is what I mean. BTW it has everything to do with truth you think RCC will make a come back because you believe in its truth but a rising number of people don't see it as truth hence the decline in faith in favour of just getting on with one's life.

i hate to say it - but you post as if we should somehow be absolutely devestated about your non belief.

Glad you are doing well

CDfm

Dave147 wrote: »

I was at a mass last night for a friends one year anniversary, it was my first time at a normal 'mass' in about 8 or 9 years, only other times I was there were for funerals. I went in with my dad and just sat there for 40 minutes, the priest talked aload of crap for the whole time and made a tiny mention of my friends name at the end.

I remember being forced to go to mass on Sunday mornings 8-10 years ago, absolutely hated the place, never got anything out of it and it was the same every week. Tbh, I hope it dies out.

Dave - Im sorry about your friend - but the Priest can only report about what was said to him.

If you dont believe in it and find it boring - it probably has no significence for you- then its to do with you and not the mass.

You have plenty of ways to celebrate your friends life - I would like to know if you have done any. Have you made a charitable dination or for instance done any good deeds to celibrate his life?

CDfm

evil-monkey wrote: »

i don't think it's rebellious teenagers though. i think it's over 20s. i'm 22 now, and of all the people i know around my age, only one of them goes to mass...

No -ones actively trying to convert you.Maybe your friend is the only one who has not bowed to peer pressure and stopped attending.

does it over make you wonder that Church members may think you have little or nothing to contribute. You may not be spiritual, but there are plenty of charitable arms of the church looking for local volunteers.

You probably dont have the skills or qualities they are looking for - I dont mean to sound mean - but before mass yesterday a guy got the boiler working. All voluntary organisations have their own community and activities - it comes as a surprise to lots of people that it goes on without them or that their views or contributions are not sought or needed.

I also had a fun filled Saturday recently with some baptists whose pastor is a neighbour - so what-we have beliefs in common.

CerebralCortex

evil-monkey wrote: »

...So while were are all, in the eyes of the CSO, Catholics, none of us are, in fact, Catholics.

If the CSO was doing their job right they'd know I was a Sith Lord

CDfm wrote: »

Angels -and archangels of which Lucifer or Satan is a fallen one - are androgynous ( of indeterminate sex). If you do find aspects unattractive it would be nice to air your gripes.

I found the portrayal quite apt and contrvercial in rthe movie - but wondered why you chosre my post to make your point.

I saw it as an opportunity to point out how poorly the woman is treated in most modern organised religions. Imagine how different the world would be if the pope was a woman (when that happens the church will cease to exist I suspect). The role of women in society takes a back seat in our society to its own detriment.

B L II N K Z

Jannah wrote: »

Every week at mass, I look around and it's either elderly people or very small children being brought by their parents. I can't name a single person that I know who has made any attempt to find out about their religion through the bible etc, not to mind practice it. It seems that my generation have all become 'seasonal Catholics' in that they only pay any attention to their religion on occassions such as weddings, funerals and Christmas. I have also noticed people being exceptionally bitter; 6th year students throwing around bibles in religion class, telling me that my grand uncle must have been a paedophile because he was a brother and openly mocking- and there is a difference between mocking and stating one's own opinion- all aspects of the religion

Is there any future for Catholicism in Ireland?

The reason for that is because teens tend to perfer be out with their friends and once you get older you start going to mass its just a phase i think

getz

the church is its own enemy-as they live in the passed and are still trying to find there feet in todays world-no longer do people except that the femail is inferior to man-and as one of the threads said she has read the bible from top to bottom-remember rome recently had its chance to bring all the non-catholic churches back under its wing but turned its chance down over woman priests--at the end of the day it was jesus who told mary magdalene to go out and pass on the word of god . more women priest/vicars/teachers will get people back into the churches meanwhile less priests less congregation

PDN

getz wrote: »

rome recently had its chance to bring all the non-catholic churches back under its wing

No it didn't. It would take a lot more than allowing women priests for that to happen. It would require hundreds of millions of other Christians to be forcibly injected with mind altering drugs.