Has Grappling been outlawed in the UFC ??

O'Leprosy

Watching the last 2 UFC's and it looks like the arts of grappling have been ( very , very strangely ) ignored during the fights. I mean in the last 2 UFC's, 90% of the time they were just striking, punching the vast majority of the time. Might as well have been watching K1. Hardly any clinch work, only a few good wrestling take downs, a few minutes of BJJ with Rich Clementi V Gray Maynard but the ref, as they struggled for superior position, was badgering them to be more active and threatening to stand them up etc ( severly and rightly criticised by Joe Rogan ).

What's the reason for this development ? Has the rules of awarding points etc been changed so stand up is rewarded and used more and hence more populiar with the so called ' fans *' Or has it developed that the wrestling skills become so strong to counter the takedowns and keeping fighters on the floor has been sidelined for the moment ?


(* BTW, never heard so much booing as at UFC 90 from the Chicago fans, at least a lot of Americans have wrestling experience, God knows what things will be like in Dublin :rolleyes: )

cowzerp

When they come over to this side of the water they know that most fans are more familiar with striking, so they pair up fighters that will most likely stay on there feet!

i genuinely believe they encourage this aswell, indirectly i mean-fighters need new contracts etc..and should keep there employers happy!

the show in ireland will be more striking i believe.

O'Leprosy

cowzerp wrote: »

When they come over to this side of the water they know that most fans are more familiar with striking, so they pair up fighters that will most likely stay on there feet!

i genuinely believe they encourage this aswell, indirectly i mean-fighters need new contracts etc..and should keep there employers happy!

the show in ireland will be more striking i believe.

[/I] they pair up fighters that will most likely stay on there feet!......i genuinely believe they encourage this aswell, indirectly i mean-fighters need new contracts etc..and should keep there employers happy![/I]

Yeah cowzerp, I've began to think that. Might as well call it K1 with a wee bit of grappling thrown in. How long before it goes the way of fake wrestling :rolleyes:

But look at Rich Clementi V Gray Maynard ,two grapplers and about 2 / 3 minutes of grappling out of 15 :mad:

Fozzy

In the early days it was relatively easy for a grappler to take a striker to the ground and dominate the fight. But these days you need to have some grappling knowledge to survive, so taking a striker to the ground won't win you a fight as easily as it would have years ago

Although the undercard fights on the last two UFC shows had quite a bit of clinch and groundwork

Fozzy

O'Leprosy wrote: »

Might as well call it K1 with a wee bit of grappling thrown in. How long before it goes the way of fake wrestling :rolleyes:

What's K-1 got to do with fake wrestling?

Jason Mc

The level of striking has improved. Its getting harder to close the distance as the strikers have developed a game plan. When they hit the ground they can stall and will get stood up

Roper

Jason Mc wrote: »

The level of striking has improved. Its getting harder to close the distance as the strikers have developed a game plan. When they hit the ground they can stall and will get stood up

Quoted for truth.

bjj-fighter

Also,American MMA is slightly stall-ish because of the wrestling background in a lot of cases.You do see skillful fast paced guys though especially lightweights and mostly Brazilians IMO

O'Leprosy

Jason Mc wrote: »

The level of striking has improved. Its getting harder to close the distance as the strikers have developed a game plan. When they hit the ground they can stall and will get stood up

Well maybe they have developed better striking techniques to avoid the take down ( though the few times I've seen a grappler getting stopped in his tracks when he'd shoot for the takedown, was when the striker coincidentally was about to throw a low leg just at the same time. But I've just done BJJ in recent years and I'll trust the opinion of a MMAer )

" When they hit the ground they can stall and will get stood up " Yeah , but do you think that because the ref's are under instructed to quickly stand it up if it reaches a BJJ struggle for position ?? And hence their's much less point going for the takedown and looking for a submission as if it's not coming on quickly it'll be stood up again ??

O'Leprosy

"Might as well call it K1 with a wee bit of grappling thrown in. How long before it goes the way of fake wrestling "

Fozzy wrote: »

What's K-1 got to do with fake wrestling?

2 different sentences making 2 seperate points. Sorry to be narky, but figure it out for yourself.

Tavares looked great RNC McFedries in the most recent UFC................


I think they're matching up more guys now who will duke it out in order to try and make fights more exciting.

mmaireland.com

Maybe it's down to a fighters interpretation of the rules.

http://www.state.nj.us/lps/sacb/docs/martial.html

13:46-24A.13 Judging

(a) All bouts will be evaluated and scored by three judges.

(b) The 10-Point Must System will be the standard system of scoring a bout. Under the 10-Point Must Scoring System, 10 points must be awarded to the winner of the round and nine points or less must be awarded to the loser, except for a rare even round, which is scored (10-10).

(c) Judges shall evaluate mixed martial arts techniques, such as effective striking, effective grappling, control of the fighting area, effective aggressiveness and defense.

(d) Evaluations shall be made in the order in which the techniques appear in (c) above, giving the most weight in scoring to effective striking, effective grappling, control of the fighting area and effective aggressiveness and defense.

(e) Effective striking is judged by determining the total number of legal heavy strikes landed by a contestant.

(f) Effective grappling is judged by considering the amount of successful executions of a legal takedown and reversals. Examples of factors to consider are take downs from standing position to mount position, passing the guard to mount position, and bottom position fighters using an active, threatening guard.

(g) Fighting area control is judged by determining who is dictating the pace, location and position of the bout. Examples of factors to consider are countering a grappler’s attempt at takedown by remaining standing and legally striking ; taking down an opponent to force a ground fight; creating threatening submission attempts, passing the guard to achieve mount, and creating striking opportunities.

(h) Effective aggressiveness means moving forward and landing a legal strike.

(i) Effective defense means avoiding being struck, taken down or reversed while countering with offensive attacks.

(j) The following objective scoring criteria shall be utilized by the judges when scoring a round;

1. A round is to be scored as a 10-10 Round when both contestants appear to be fighting evenly and neither contestant shows clear dominance in a round;

2. A round is to be scored as a 10-9 Round when a contestant wins by a close margin, landing the greater number of effective legal strikes, grappling and other maneuvers;

3. A round is to be scored as a 10-8 Round when a contestant overwhelmingly dominates by striking or grappling in a round.

4. A round is to be scored as a 10-7 Round when a contestant totally dominates by striking or grappling in a round.

(k) Judges shall use a sliding scale and recognize the length of time the fighters are either standing or on the ground, as follows:

1. If the mixed martial artists spent a majority of a round on the canvas, then:
i. Effective grappling is weighed first; and
ii. Effective striking is then weighed

2. If the mixed martial artists spent a majority of a round standing, then:
1. Effective striking is weighed first; and
2. Effective grappling is then weighed

3. If a round ends with a relatively even amount of standing and canvas fighting, striking and grappling are weighed equally.

For Mr. Joe Average who doesn't necessarily understand the intricacies of the ground game - striking is typically more entertaining.

So, as a fighter (who wants to win AND get more fights [pay days]) keeping it on the feet (not allowing the fight to progress beyond the first phase) and having the scoring run in your favour is a fairly logical choice (assuming, of course, the fighter has the necessary striking skills and takedown defence).

It means a) a win. But, b) a more "entertaining" win - which in turn means fame/recognition/call backs.

rovert

There are a lot tangible and intangible inducements to stay standing for fighters.

mark.leonard

bjj-fighter wrote: »

Also,American MMA is slightly stall-ish because of the wrestling background in a lot of cases.You do see skillful fast paced guys though especially lightweights and mostly Brazilians IMO

Do you actually believe this? This may have been the case 10 years ago but not today!

bjj-fighter

mark.leonard wrote: »

Do you actually believe this? This may have been the case 10 years ago but not today!

So you see guys like Josh Koscheck and Lesner doing gogoplatas and flying armbars?No.They get takedowns,stay in guard,half-guard or whatever and just lie there...maybe landing a few punches.

mark.leonard

bjj-fighter wrote: »

So you see guys like Josh Koscheck and Lesner doing gogoplatas and flying armbars?No.They get takedowns,stay in guard,half-guard or whatever and just lie there...maybe landing a few punches.

Two fighters do not a nation make. I agree that there are some wrestlers that stagnate on the ground and you have picked two good examples, but to say

Karl Redmond wrote:

American MMA is slightly stall-ish because of the wrestling background

is somewhat of a generalisation. I'll see your Lesner and Koscheck and raise you Couture (also a wrestler), Henderson (also a wrestler) and Rashad Evans (yes, another wrestler), see where I am going with this?

cowzerp

mark.leonard wrote: »

is somewhat of a generalisation. I'll see your Lesner and Koscheck and raise you Couture (also a wrestler), Henderson (also a wrestler) and Rashad Evans (yes, another wrestler), see where I am going with this?

Mark while i agree with most of what your saying it has to be pointed out that the lads you name here although wrestlers no doubt are all big into boxing and try to use boxing in there fights and use there wrestling to keep it standing, the wrestling that most people refer to in mma is ground wrestling like that of koscheck etc,,very boring and stallish in most cases.

so it really depends what way you look at it, fact is there all wrestlers but the boring ones are the ones using wresling the way it was intended and adding some ground and pound.

so both of you's are right depending how its looked at!

mark.leonard

cowzerp wrote: »

Mark while i agree with most of what your saying it has to be pointed out that the lads you name here although wrestlers no doubt are all big into boxing and try to use boxing in there fights and use there wrestling to keep it standing, the wrestling that most people refer to in mma is ground wrestling like that of koscheck etc,,very boring and stallish in most cases.

so it really depends what way you look at it, fact is there all wrestlers but the boring ones are the ones using wresling the way it was intended and adding some ground and pound.

so both of you's are right depending how its looked at!

No Paul, what you said is agreeing with me, Karl is saying that ALL wrestlers are boring, I was not.

bjj-fighter

mark.leonard wrote: »

No Paul, what you said is agreeing with me, Karl is saying that ALL wrestlers are boring, I was not.

No,I did specificly say "...in most cases".

mark.leonard

The implication for your post was clear that you thought Americans stall more often than not due to their wrestling background, that aside when I asked you if you really believed it you replied with a categoric yes, so there is not a lot of point back pedalling on it now!