Matt Cooper - Driving in Hard Shoulder

GreeBo

MYOB wrote: »

The argument is that the law states you must keep left. Simple as.

That doesnt make it correct, logical or useful.

MYOB wrote: »

The inside lane is for driving in. The middle lane is for overtaking it. The outer lane is for overtaking people who are overtaking. If there is a 4th lane like some motorways in England have, this is for overtaking people who are overtaking those that are overtaking.

Do we really need more than one overtaking lane? How often is there that much congestion in the outer lane (not caused by people driving in it) that would necessitate multiple overtaking lanes?

MYOB wrote: »

driving in the middle lane reduces the functional capacity of the road quite significantly.

How? If somone wants to overtake me they can easily by using the outerlane. If someone wants to join the motorway the have an inside lane, which by your own definition is the slowest lane on the motorway) If they wish to leave the motorway they again have the inside lane. The only time I could possibly be in the way is if someone wants to move from the outermost lane to the innermost lane quickly. In my opinion thats bad driving as they should have positioned themselves in the correct lane earlier.

Oh and, if you cant respond to this debate without resorting to "its the law" and "its people like you" then please dont bother replying at all. Im playing devils advocate here and am waiting for an explanation of why its the law.

I.S.T.

Greebo, are you full or provisional licence and how long have u got it?

R.O.R

GreeBo wrote: »

:rolleyes:Thanks for your contribution.

So whats the argument for not driving in the "middle" lane?
Seems to make more sense to me, you have a lane for merging on/off the motorway and you have a lane for overtaking with a "Driving and not coming off anytime soon" lane in the middle.

So, everyone merges in to the inside lane, then moves over to the middle lane to drive in :rolleyes:

Think that leaves us back at square one (everyone driving in 1 lane), but reduces the capacity of the road by 1/3.

GreeBo

IrishSpeedTraps wrote: »

if you sit in the middle lane at 80kmh then nobody can use the left lane if they are going faster than you. What if you don't want to merge/leave the motorway and want to drive at 80kmh (120kmh speed limit). Where should you drive under your rules?

1) if they want to go faster then me they should be overtaking me in the outside lane.
2) Middle lane (i.e. the same as if its a 2 lane motorway)

L1011

GreeBo wrote: »

That doesnt make it correct, logical or useful.

Do we really need more than one overtaking lane? How often is there that much congestion in the outer lane (not caused by people driving in it) that would necessitate multiple overtaking lanes?

Every single morning and evening on the N7. Any other time the traffic exceeds the design capacity of a two lane road. That is why the extra lane is there!

GreeBo wrote: »

How? If somone wants to overtake me they can easily by using the outerlane. If someone wants to join the motorway the have an inside lane, which by your own definition is the slowest lane on the motorway) If they wish to leave the motorway they again have the inside lane. The only time I could possibly be in the way is if someone wants to move from the outermost lane to the innermost lane quickly. In my opinion thats bad driving as they should have positioned themselves in the correct lane earlier.

If theres someone else sitting in the outside lane because they have their own interepretation of the Road Traffic Act, they can't overtake you. If you're pootling along slowly in the middle lane because you think its allowed/justified and you're being overtaken by another pootler, they can't overtake you.

Driving in the middle lane with a clear inner lane means you're in the way *constantly*. And its the law that thats bad driving.

GreeBo wrote: »

Oh and, if you cant respond to this debate without resorting to "its the law" and "its people like you" then please dont bother replying at all. Im playing devils advocate here and am waiting for an explanation of why its the law.

The explanation of why it is the law has been given. Now, can you please start obeying it?

L1011

GreeBo wrote: »

2) Middle lane (i.e. the same as if its a 2 lane motorway)

So what on earth is the inside lane for you in your view, then?

GreeBo

R.O.R wrote: »

So, everyone merges in to the inside lane, then moves over to the middle lane to drive in :rolleyes:

Why the eye rolling? If you have a point to make then make it.

R.O.R wrote: »

Think that leaves us back at square one (everyone driving in 1 lane), but reduces the capacity of the road by 1/3.

No everybody is not driving in one lane. People leaving/joining the motorway are in lane 1.
People continuing on the motorway are in lane 2.
People overtaking are in lane 3.

How is that reducing the capacity of the road? Having 15 overtkaing lanes doenst increase the capacity of the road 15 times if no one can drive in the only overtake. By your logic if every single car was driving at the speed limit then we would have 2 empty lanes and solid traffic in the inside lane. Now thats reducing road capacity.

Zulu

GreeBo wrote: »

That doesnt make it correct, logical or useful.

Perhaps, but the only thing we do know for sure is that your opinion of what is correct, logic, or useful is incorrect in the eyes of the law and the rules of the road.

Fail.

Anan1

GreeBo wrote: »

Im playing devils advocate here and am waiting for an explanation of why its the law.

Devil's advocate? Looks a lot more like 'I don't know the first thing about driving' to me.:D

GreeBo

MYOB wrote: »

So what on earth is the inside lane for you in your view, then?

On earth its for merging onto the motorway with a clear lane rather than the current "design" of "well you have 100m to merge into traffic moving at the speed limit, good luck because you lane ends now..."
I cant comment on whats its for on other planets.

MYOB wrote: »

If theres someone else sitting in the outside lane because they have their own interepretation of the Road Traffic Act, they can't overtake you. If you're pootling along slowly in the middle lane because you think its allowed/justified and you're being overtaken by another pootler, they can't overtake you.

Youve totally lost me here.
Why cant they overtake me...they are in the over taking lane?
Whenever pootler b has overtaken me the outer lane is free. Im arguing about driving in the middle lane, you are now talking about someone driving in the outer lane to make your point.

L1011

GreeBo wrote: »

How is that reducing the capacity of the road? Having 15 overtkaing lanes doenst increase the capacity of the road 15 times if no one can drive in the only overtake. By your logic if every single car was driving at the speed limit then we would have 2 empty lanes and solid traffic in the inside lane. Now thats reducing road capacity.

If everyone was travelling at 120km/h (or 100km/h on APD3 roads) there would be no need for overtaking lanes to begin with, basically. However, the point is that there are people on roads either driving below these speeds or limited to these speeds - hence overtaking lanes.

GreeBo

MYOB wrote: »

If everyone was travelling at 120km/h (or 100km/h on APD3 roads) there would be no need for overtaking lanes to begin with, basically. However, the point is that there are people on roads either driving below these speeds or limited to these speeds - hence overtaking lanes.

There would be no need for overtaking, but the capacity of the road is reduced to a single lane. You said my idea is reducing capacity and I am pointing out that its increasing it.

L1011

GreeBo wrote: »

On earth its for merging onto the motorway with a clear lane rather than the current "design" of "well you have 100m to merge into traffic moving at the speed limit, good luck because you lane ends now..."
I cant comment on whats its for on other planets.

Its not for merging *anywhere* - thats what the merge lanes are for. Its for driving in, same as merge lanes in every other country are. Its clear you've never driven in a country that has a proper road network from this...

GreeBo wrote: »

Youve totally lost me here.
Why cant they overtake me...they are in the over taking lane?
Whenever pootler b has overtaken me the outer lane is free. Im arguing about driving in the middle lane, you are now talking about someone driving in the outer lane to make your point.

No I'm not. You're deliberately introducing confusion here.

The entire time pootler B is (hypothetically) overtaking you, all other drivers are held up due to you sitting - illegally and selfishly - in the middle lane.

L1011

GreeBo wrote: »

There would be no need for overtaking, but the capacity of the road is reduced to a single lane. You said my idea is reducing capacity and I am pointing out that its increasing it.

You're delusional. Its cutting the functional capacity of the road by 1/3rd due to undertaking being illegal. You have basically removed an entire lane from the road.

GreeBo

Zulu wrote: »

Perhaps, but the only thing we do know for sure is that your opinion of what is correct, logic, or useful is incorrect in the eyes of the law and the rules of the road.

Fail.

Great. So to paraphrase you;
"I dont know why its the law so Im going to attack you and not give a reason"
Thanks for clearing that up.

L1011

GreeBo wrote: »

Great. So to paraphrase you;
"I dont know why its the law so Im going to attack you and not give a reason"
Thanks for clearing that up.

You've had a number of people explain to you why it is the law. Are you going to continue breaking the law / driving without due care / being inconsiderate?

Alun

GreeBo wrote: »

On earth its for merging onto the motorway with a clear lane rather than the current "design" of "well you have 100m to merge into traffic moving at the speed limit, good luck because you lane ends now..."
I cant comment on what its for on other planets.

Well, the rest of the planet actually seems to manage perfectly OK with that scenario, but merging onto a motorway, despite working everywhere else, is a skill that 99.9% of the Irish driving population seem not to possess, usually involving slowing down when you're supposed to be speeding up, and lots of panicky braking and swerving.

In any case, on the 3 lane sections of the M50, you've now got kilometres of 'weaving lane' to achieve this seemingly impossible feat, not that that seems to stop idiots from believing that the lane will suddenly swallow them up, and swerve into the middle lane as soon as they possibly can.

GreeBo

Alun wrote: »

Well, the rest of the planet actually seems to manage perfectly OK with that scenario, but merging onto a motorway, despite working everywhere else, is a skill that 99.9% of the Irish driving population seem not to possess, usually involving slowing down when you're supposed to be speeding up, and lots of panicky braking and swerving.

In any case, on the 3 lane sections of the M50, you've now got kilometres of 'weaving lane' to achieve this seemingly impossible feat, not that that seems to stop idiots from believing that the lane will suddenly swallow them up, and swerve into the middle lane as soon as they possibly can.

So you can undertake in the weaving lane? If you cannot then traffic in that lane must slow down to whatever speed the pootler in the inside lane is doing.

Question. If my idea makes no sense then why are they putting in these weaving lanes (that serve the exact same purpose as I am recommending for the inner lane?)

I.S.T.

R.O.R wrote: »

So, everyone merges in to the inside lane, then moves over to the middle lane to drive in :rolleyes:

Think that leaves us back at square one (everyone driving in 1 lane), but reduces the capacity of the road by 1/3.

Greenbo, this is a good point, would you like to address it?

Zulu

GreeBo wrote: »

Great. So to paraphrase you;
"I dont know why its the law so Im going to attack you and not give a reason"
Thanks for clearing that up.

That's a completely incorrect paraphrase.

1) I know why it's the law.
2) It's been explained to you 7rl times.
3) I didn't attack you.
4) I don't need to give a reason to state a fact; it's a fact

L1011

GreeBo wrote: »

So you can undertake in the weaving lane? If you cannot then traffic in that lane must slow down to whatever speed the pootler in the inside lane is doing.

Question. If my idea makes no sense then why are they putting in these weaving lanes (that serve the exact same purpose as I am recommending for the inner lane?)

The ROTR has not been updated to reflect this, but the road markings indicate it is a seperate roadway hence its not classified as undertaking if you pass a car on the main roadway

These are being placed to allow people to travel junction to junction without requiring to merge with the main roadway, NOT to allow people to merge over longer distances. This is because of the higher levels of traffic going junction to junction on the M50 than on other roads.

Mr. Presentable

One of the reasons you should drive in the leftmost lane is that it is the lane close to the hard shoulder so you can reach it easily if you have trouble. Another reason is so you don't have the dangerous possibility of someone being in your passenger side blindspot should you need to change lanes. Another is so traffic merging will not have to cross multiple lanes to get past you.

The law may not be perfect, but if everybody adhered to it the roads would be safer and more efficient.

I.S.T.

Greebo, take a look at this

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/3586474.stm

Motorway lane-hogs 'cut capacity'

Too much braking is causing phantom traffic jams, says the RAC
Up to a third of motorway capacity is being wasted by drivers' poor lane discipline, according to research by the RAC Foundation.

"Selfish" middle-lane hoggers and outside-lane blockers are the worst culprits, said RAC head Edmund King.

"If we can encourage these drivers to practise better lane discipline it would be equivalent to adding 700 miles of new motorway capacity," he added.

Now will you admit you are wrong? If you still want to take the opinion that you are right and everyone else is wrong will you please disclose what licence you have and what driver training you have?

GreeBo

Zulu wrote: »

That's a completely incorrect paraphrase.

1) I know why it's the law.
2) It's been explained to you 7rl times.
3) I didn't attack you.
4) I don't need to give a reason to state a fact; it's a fact

1/2) I dont see where its been explained and its still not a law. You cannot be arrested for breaking the rules of the road. Sorry but thats a fact.
3) so your "Fail" referred to...?
4) What fact are you stating exactly? Thats its a law? That still doesnt address why.

L1011

GreeBo wrote: »

1/2) I dont see where its been explained and its still not a law. You cannot be arrested for breaking the rules of the road. Sorry but thats a fact.

You've been told over and over again:

The law is that you MUST KEEP LEFT when not overtaking. This applies to single carriagways, two lane duals and higher than two lane duals. This has been the law since 1933!

GreeBo

IrishSpeedTraps wrote: »

Greenbo, this is a good point, would you like to address it?

Go back about 2 pages.

Alun

MYOB wrote: »

These are being placed to allow people to travel junction to junction without requiring to merge with the main roadway, NOT to allow people to merge over longer distances. This is because of the higher levels of traffic going junction to junction on the M50 than on other roads.

True, that's what they were designed for, but there's absolutely nothing to stop you using them for that purpose, and you'd be pretty stupid not to make use of them to do that, especially when traffic is heavy.

GreeBo

MYOB wrote: »

You've been told over and over again:

The law is that you MUST KEEP LEFT when not overtaking. This applies to single carriagways, two lane duals and higher than two lane duals. This has been the law since 1933!

Maybe if I make it bigger you will get it.
WHYis it the law? You can keep telling me that it is the law but not tell me why. Whats the reason for staying left?

I.S.T.

GreeBo wrote: »

Maybe if I make it bigger you will get it.
WHYis it the law? You can keep telling me that it is the law but not tell me why. Whats the reason for staying left?

See my post above http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=57750387&postcount=84

GreeBo

nipplenuts wrote: »

One of the reasons you should drive in the leftmost lane is that it is the lane close to the hard shoulder so you can reach it easily if you have trouble. Another reason is so you don't have the dangerous possibility of someone being in your passenger side blindspot should you need to change lanes. Another is so traffic merging will not have to cross multiple lanes to get past you.

The law may not be perfect, but if everybody adhered to it the roads would be safer and more efficient.

Firstly, thanks for your answer.
While I agree with 1) I dont think you can drive expecting your car to break down but still point taken.
As for your second point, this will happen anyway on a 3 or more laned road as you attempt to complete your overtaking manover there is the risk of someone being in your passenger blind spot as they move from lane 1 to 2 etc.