Matt Cooper - Driving in Hard Shoulder

keane2097

GreeBo wrote: »

Also traffic leaving the motorway will be out of the way of continuing traffic.

i've never seen a car leaving the motorway inconvenience continuing traffic to be honest. They just move from the left lane into the diverging lane and they're away, so the argument about cars leaving the motorway is fairly invalid in my opinion.

GreeBo wrote: »

I think having ample opportunity to get to the correct speed without having to worry about your lane ending is some benefit.

That's just the same thing as the merging lane though - all you have to do is get your car up to speed on the merging lane and you're golden. Making a car come off the merging lane, into the left lane, wait for you to pass by them, go out into the middle lane, continue out to the right lane, and only THEN overtake you is ridiculous.

Essentially you're causing all this bother because you can't merge properly, and want to have a full lane to yourself on the left so you can have as many failed merge attempts as you like.

Just merge properly at the start. Nothing makes merging into the middle lane easier than merging into the left lane. Having more road in front of you before you do it just gives you the option of being crap.

-Chris-

GreeBo wrote: »

Do you thikn thats always possible?

Why wouldn't it be possible to be doing the correct speed when you merged?

Please be specific with your answer.

GreeBo

AudiChris wrote: »

Changing two lanes everytime you want to overtake is far less safe than changing one lane to overtake.

That doesn't make sense.

How would you need to change two?
You are in lane 2, you move to lane 3 and then back to lane 2?

L1011

GreeBo wrote: »

How would you need to change two?
You are in lane 2, you move to lane 3 and then back to lane 2?

You enter in lane 1. You are hogging lane 2 - hence they need to go to 1>2>3>2>1 to legally pass you.

GreeBo

MYOB wrote: »

Its always possible if you're a good driver. You, clearly, are not.

I think you should merge to the driving lane as soon as you are at speed to do so.

Its always possible if you are the only person trying to join the motorway. So about 10% of the time I would say.

I am still waiting for your answers on
1) Do you think its a good idea to use the new lanes for merging on and off
2) How you can join the motorway if you are travelling faster then the traffic in lane 1.

GreeBo

MYOB wrote: »

You enter in lane 1. You are hogging lane 2 - hence they need to go to 1>2>3>2>1 to legally pass you.

Only if we are saying that you cannot drive in lane 2. i.e the whole point of the argument!

GreeBo

AudiChris wrote: »

Why wouldn't it be possible to be doing the correct speed when you merged?

Please be specific with your answer.

1) Its totally dependent on what the car in front is doing (unless you advocate cutting across the hatching early?)
2) If the traffic in lane 1 is going slower than you are, according to MYOB you would be undertaking them if you join in front of them so you need to slow down to their speed and merge behind. This slows down everyone behind you even more and they are then unable to merge with the faster moving traffic.

-Chris-

GreeBo wrote: »

2) How you can join the motorway if you are travelling faster then the traffic in lane 1.

Why would you be going faster than the traffic in lane 1 if you're concerned about safety and ease of road use.

Would it not be wiser to choose a speed that let you join the carriageway safely and then speed up/overtake once you're established and settled yourself among the other road users?

L1011

GreeBo wrote: »

Only if we are saying that you cannot drive in lane 2. i.e the whole point of the argument!

Of course that is what we are saying! Because that is

1: The law
2: Accepted practice
3: Best practice
4: Once again, the law

Every time you hog the middle lane you are breaking the law. Justifying it with some quixiotic idea about merge lanes does not work. You're driving inconsiderately, and with the manner of someone who should never have passed their test - and the arrogance of someone who should never be let on the road.

Can you answer IrishSpeedTraps question about your qualifications please?

L1011

GreeBo wrote: »

2) How you can join the motorway if you are travelling faster then the traffic in lane 1.

You slow down to their speed. It is you responsibility to join the road at the speed traffic is travelling at, any good driver is able to do this.

-Chris-

GreeBo wrote: »

1) Its totally dependent on what the car in front is doing (unless you advocate cutting across the hatching early?)
2) If the traffic in lane 1 is going slower than you are, according to MYOB you would be undertaking them if you join in front of them so you need to slow down to their speed and merge behind. This slows down everyone behind you even more and they are then unable to merge with the faster moving traffic.

The traffic in lane 1 only moves at one speed at a time, how can they be both faster and slower than the traffic in the merging lane?

The point is that you enter the merging lane from whereever you've been and then use the merging lane to accelerate until you match your speed to the existing traffic.

Noone should be going faster or slower than you if you're trying to be safe. And if they are going significantly faster than you, it would be wise for them to move temporarily into the overtaking lane so you don't intersect with each other.

Edit: MYOB beat me to it!

GreeBo

keane2097 wrote: »

Making a car come off the merging lane, into the left lane, wait for you to pass by them, go out into the middle lane, continue out to the right lane, and only THEN overtake you is ridiculous.

How is it any more ridiculous then forcing a car in lane 1 to merge with lane 2, wait for the slower care in lane 3 to move back to lane 2 then you merge into lane 3 overtake and the merge back into lane 2 and then back into lane1?

Stephen_C

As I see it if you are merging onto a motorway be it 2 lane or 3 lane the current best practice as stated in the rotr is to use the slip road onto the motorway to get your car up to the same speed as the traffic in the first lane of the motorway, it is the responibilty of the traffic in the first lane to accomodate you on the road by either slowing down, or moving to the next lane over (and then returning to the left lane as soon as it is safe to do so).

The reason for 3 lane motorways as well as increasing capacity is to allow trucks, buses, artics and other towing vehicles the opportunity to overtake. Believe it or not it is currently against the law for one of these vehicles to overtake on a 2 lane motorway, however on a 3 lane motorway they are allowed use the second lane to overtake leaving the third lane free for anyone who wishes to overtake them. Trucks etc. are still not allowed to use the furthest right lane to overtake.

If somebody is sitting in the middle lane and not overtaking it can prevent a truck from overtaking if it wishes to do so. Which as we see everyday on the N7 leads to trucks and many other vehicles including cars overtaking in the furthest right lane at speed lower than the posted limits.

L1011

GreeBo wrote: »

How is it any more ridiculous then forcing a car in lane 1 to merge with lane 2, wait for the slower care in lane 3 to move back to lane 2 then you merge into lane 3 overtake and the merge back into lane 2 and then back into lane1?

In every single way. There is not likely to be a slower car in lane 3 if people aren't hogging the middle lane, anyway.

I.S.T.

GreeBo wrote: »

How is it any more ridiculous then forcing a car in lane 1 to merge with lane 2, wait for the slower care in lane 3 to move back to lane 2 then you merge into lane 3 overtake and the merge back into lane 2 and then back into lane1?

What type of driving licence do you have?

Do you have any form of advanced driving training?

What motorway do you most frequently drive on and how often do you drive on it (daily/weekly/etc)?

GreeBo

AudiChris wrote: »

The traffic in lane 1 only moves at one speed at a time, how can they be both faster and slower than the traffic in the merging lane?

The point is that you enter the merging lane from whereever you've been and then use the merging lane to accelerate until you match your speed to the existing traffic.

Noone should be going faster or slower than you if you're trying to be safe. And if they are going significantly faster than you, it would be wise for them to move temporarily into the overtaking lane so you don't intersect with each other.

Edit: MYOB beat me to it!

1) They are going slower than you are, but as you slow down the traffic behind you slows down even more (hence the phantom jams) until they eventually run out of slip road and are travelling below the speed of the cars in lane 1. It happens every day and is not rocket science to understand.

2) Any my point is that its not always possible to match their speed for a variety of reasons I have already stated.

3) "Noone should be going faster or slower than you if you're trying to be safe. " eh what? Traffic moves at different speeds the whole time. Compare a truck to a CLK.

Berty

My god. My internet goes for most of the day and I come back to another 7 pages. You guys are very upset with each other. Funny to read and shame on you all because it took a long time to read!!

Jeez, RTE themelves have actually done a TV advert on how to join and how to leave a motorway. I just goes to show how little people either watch tv or how literal an idiot box actually is.

You MUST allow people coming onto a motorway or dual carraigeway access by moving(if safe) to the next lane. They MUST increase their speed to join at a suitable speed. A suitable speed is a speed in which you do not cause interference to the current users of that road.

Its all fact which I learned many years prior to the advert whilst I was learning to drive, during my advanced driving test by a UK company and also whilst I was attaining my license for driving an ambulance tactically. They ALL cant be wrong.

Anybody who claims this is incorrect use of the road is misinformed! :pac:

GreeBo

Stephen_C wrote: »

it is the responibilty of the traffic in the first lane to accomodate you on the road by either slowing down, or moving to the next lane over (and then returning to the left lane as soon as it is safe to do so).

where do you see that?
"Give way to traffic already on the motorway." is what ROTR says.
[/QUOTE]

GreeBo

quirke_folder wrote: »

You MUST allow people coming onto a motorway or dual carraigeway access by moving(if safe) to the next lane. They MUST increase their speed to join at a suitable speed. A suitable speed is a speed in which you do not cause interference to the current users of that road.

So if its something you must do then why not have a lane specifically for it?

L1011

GreeBo wrote: »

1) They are going slower than you are, but as you slow down the traffic behind you slows down even more (hence the phantom jams) until they eventually run out of slip road and are travelling below the speed of the cars in lane 1. It happens every day and is not rocket science to understand.

2) Any my point is that its not always possible to match their speed for a variety of reasons I have already stated.

3) "Noone should be going faster or slower than you if you're trying to be safe. " eh what? Traffic moves at different speeds the whole time. Compare a truck to a CLK.

1: Phantom jams affect the mainline. Not the slip road. Invalid argument as people have to merge at a correct speed.

2: What reasons?

3: Irrelevant. If a truck is on the mainline when trying to merge in your CLK, you slow down. If a CLK is blipping along at 120 and you're driving a truck you hold back and merge behind them.

L1011

GreeBo wrote: »

So if its something you must do then why not have a lane specifically for it?

Because it would be utterly pointless! They would still have to go in to the middle lane to continue driving...

MEANING THEY STILL HAVE TO MERGE AT A CORRECT SPEED WITH OTHER TRAFFIC

GreeBo

MYOB wrote: »

1: Phantom jams affect the mainline. Not the slip road. Invalid argument as people have to merge at a correct speed.

2: What reasons?

3: Irrelevant. If a truck is on the mainline when trying to merge in your CLK, you slow down. If a CLK is blipping along at 120 and you're driving a truck you hold back and merge behind them.

1) They affect all roads, its caused by progressively harsher breaking by following cars. The type of road is irrelevant, or have you never been in a phantom jam on a dual carriage way or other road?

2) Slower cars in front and your own argument about undertaking which you refuse to return to.

3) Whats irrelevent? I was responding to the claim that if everyone is driving safely we are all going at the same speed which is baloney.

GreeBo

MYOB wrote: »

Because it would be utterly pointless! They would still have to go in to the middle lane to continue driving...

MEANING THEY STILL HAVE TO MERGE AT A CORRECT SPEED WITH OTHER TRAFFIC

But it allows for controlled merges and not merges with a predefined end point when your lane ends.

L1011

GreeBo wrote: »

But it allows for controlled merges and not merges with a predefined end point when your lane ends.

If you are unable to merge in the space provided, you're not a good driver.

Also, your merge lane will clearly run out at some point, hence it has a predefined end! If someone is a crap enough driver to not merge in a 300 metre merge lane, they may be unable to merge before the next exit.

Berty

GreeBo wrote: »

So if its something you must do then why not have a lane specifically for it?

There is, its called the left hand most lane of the carraigeway. Under Irish ROTR this is the lane you join the carraigeway on.

There is a hatched area whereby those in the lane already can anticipate your joining the carraigeway and then can make "arrangements" for your arrival into their lane.

They should move to the next lane to allow you entry. Its all about free flow. If they cannot access the next lane they should slow(not brake as there is enough time to anticipate) and allow you to enter in front of them.

If you are coming down the onramp at 100kph and they are doing 80kph(people have been mentioning this) then you should not pass them on the left because they should have already moved into the next lane. If they cannot move into the next lane they should slow meaning as you are still doing 100 and they have slowed even more you will meet the carraigeway apex before them.

GreeBo

MYOB wrote: »

If you are unable to merge in the space provided, you're not a good driver.

Also, your merge lane will clearly run out at some point, hence it has a predefined end! If someone is a crap enough driver to not merge in a 300 metre merge lane, they may be unable to merge before the next exit.

Ok, So Im Nigel Mansell but your granny is attempting to merge in front of me. What now?
The merge lane does not end, its lane 1 and is on all parts of the motorway.
The current slip road ends.

GreeBo

quirke_folder wrote: »

They should move to the next lane to allow you entry. Its all about free flow. If they cannot access the next lane they should slow(not brake as there is enough time to anticipate) and allow you to enter in front of them.

Again, where are you getting this from? Can you quote or link to source please?

Berty

GreeBo wrote: »

Again, where are you getting this from? Can you quote or link to source please?

I already have so join the emergency tactical course or head to the UK for advanced drivers training.

GreeBo

quirke_folder wrote: »

I already have so join the emergency tactical course or head to the UK for advanced drivers training.

So at best its a UK rule and at worst its a "law of the land" that you have decided to follow?

I'd like to see how you get on in court with a defense of "he was supposed to make room for me, even though he has right of way" .

daveharnett

I've given up on land discipline on the the Naas-Dublin stretch of the N7.
I put the head down and stick to the middle lane. The simple reason is that everybody else is doing it!

If i keep left as I know I should, moving to lane 2 in a safe way (to overtake hgv's/make room for merging traffic) is impossible because lane 2 is full of cars at 90kph who are allready way too close together.

It sucks, but i've given up on being a hero. The best I can do without endangering myself is stick to lane 2 and keep enough room in front of me to allow people from lanes 1 and 3 to merge in safety.