Matt Cooper - Driving in Hard Shoulder

Esel

AudiChris wrote: »

Not sure if anyone's mentioned it here yet, but my experience of driving on the continent is that every stays in the leftmost lane except when overtaking.

If you're in the leftmost lane and you see someone coming down the merging lane, you move into the overtaking lane (if it's clear) until the driver's joined the left lane and you know whether you'll be slotting in behind them because they're going faster than you or whether you'll be staying in the overtaking lane and overtaking them because they're slower than you.

This system removes the need for a dedicated, full-time merging lane and takes a lot of stress away from the person merging as they have maximum space and time to establish themselves in their lane.

Greebo, please read the above post. Now, read it again. And again. Repeat until it sinks in.

By the way, where the Rules of the Road state 'you must....', this means it is the law. You can and will be prosecuted for disobeying.

I also note that you have ignored a number of requests to state your licence and experience. Touchy subject for you?

GreeBo

esel wrote: »

Greebo, please read the above post. Now, read it again. And again. Repeat until it sinks in.

If you're in the leftmost lane and you see someone coming down the merging lane, you move into the overtaking lane (if it's clear) until the driver's joined the left lane and you know whether you'll be slotting in behind them because they're going faster than you or whether you'll be staying in the overtaking lane and overtaking them because they're slower than you.

This system removes the need for a dedicated, full-time merging lane

Except that this behaviour is not stated or encouraged anywhere in our rules of the road. Therefore we do have the need for a full time merging lane as perfectly explained above. You do see that his post backs my side of the argument, right?

esel wrote: »

I also note that you have ignored a number of requests to state your licence and experience. Touchy subject for you?

Hardly, its totally irrelevant to the argument. Will your point change if I say I have 25 years experience driving all over the world as a chauffeur versus if I say I have been driving 6 months on a full licence?

Sandwich

Blimey. As lively as a speeding thread!

Anyone know what the protocol is in those countries with 5 and 6 lane roads, any experience of it, and does it work?

nogoodnamesleft

Some sections of the M25 around london are 5-6 lane carrige ways. The rule of keeping left holds true most of the time however some of the left most lanes are especially signposted for certain destinations (e.g. slip roads for adjoining motorways) so obviously you enter the correct lane and observe lane disipline something which seems a foreign concept in Ireland.

I have been driving around the Uk for the last few weeks and as already stated the standard of driving over there is far higher than over here. The observe lane disipline are aware of what is around them and what lane they are in. One of the most common things in Ireland is being cut up on round abouts as people dont realise that their is TWO lanes on most, one for the 1st and 2nd exits, and the 2nd lane for 3rd and supsequent exits. Commonly drivers over here take the shortest route through the round about oblivious to cars around them.

I only arrived back from the Uk last night into Cork and within 5mins of arriving back I had been tailgaited, saw a L driver without supervision on the Kinsale road, a taxi driver drving on the overtaking lane of the Southlink with a clear road ahead. A big thing over here is lack of enforcement with road traffic...

Wertz

Heard this on the repeat on the very Last Word this monring...the mind boggles, it really does.
I'm sure every point I can make has been raised in the thread already so I won't bother, but the one thing about that piece that pissed me off the most was Cooper's protestations that people cruising in the overtaking lane aren't doing anything wrong if they're doing the legal limit...I have also heard him in the past saying that a "friend" likes to police speeders on the mways by cruising in the overtaking lane.
Sorry Matt, I have a lot of time for your show, but your views are those a of a gobsh*te when it comes to this issue.
As for driving on the hard shoulder? :rolleyes: Tolling it? :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
If this happens I would whole heartedly support the green's proposal to lower the mway limit to 100kmph, purely from a safety aspect. Conor Faughnan said it spot on: Irish drivers can't figure out how to use the 2 lanes they have, let alone confusing them further with adding the hard shoulder to the mix. Personally it's always reassuriing to know that in the event of some sort of incident ahead or beside me whilst doing mway speeds that there is a clear stretch of tarmac to dive into should that become necessary rather than rear ending someone or getting crushed by an artic.
Again, apologies, not read the whole thread, sorry for repetition of anyone else's views...

-Chris-

GreeBo wrote: »

You do see that his post backs my side of the argument, right?

No it doesn't! You're wrong. I disagree with you with every fiber of my being.


My point is that proper lane discipline negates your pointless plan for a dedicated merge lane. Proper lane discipline keeps everyone safe and removes stress from all concerned.

E92

If you can't merge in ~300 yards they give you to merge on a DC/Motorway then you should not be driving.

The ignorance of some is amazing, how difficult is it to understand the keep left rule?

Oh and you're required to drive at the speed limit when it's safe to do so too.

L1011

GreeBo wrote: »

Ok, So Im Nigel Mansell but your granny is attempting to merge in front of me. What now?
The merge lane does not end, its lane 1 and is on all parts of the motorway.
The current slip road ends.

That doens't prevent you merging safely

If your invented 'merge lane' doesn't end, crap drivers who are unable to merge will still be in it at the next exit, meaning other crap drivers who can't merge won't be able to get in to it at all...

randomer

E92 wrote: »

Oh and you're required to drive at the speed limit when it's safe to do so too.

Are you being serious?

Sandwich

Leaving the law and its observance or not aside for a mo.

Whats the from-first-principals reason for an overtaking only on the right ? Surely we all check our wing mirrors whether changing lane to the left or the right - so does it really matter whether on to one side cars might be moving faster than us, but not on the other ?

L1011

Sandwich wrote: »

Leaving the law and its observance or not aside for a mo.

Whats the from-first-principals reason for an overtaking only on the right ? Surely we all check our wing mirrors whether changing lane to the left or the right - so does it really matter whether on to one side cars might be moving faster than us, but not on the other ?

You generally have larger blind spot on your right, preventing people passing here reduces accident chances. Also, if passing on the right (edit: passing on the LEFT. brain tired....) was allowed, people could easily get 'trapped' in the middle lane after a lane gain on a road as there would be faster vehicles passing on both sides. Also, on duallers, junctions are (usually!) slips on the left.

Big Nasty

OMG! This thread is un-believable! Fair enough point that we only got our first motorway, what - fifteen years back. But does it really take fifteen years for the point to sink in?

Drive on left - Pass on right! End of!
Why? Because it's safer and makes for a more even flow of traffic!

Why, oh why do people find this so hard to understand!?! :mad:

Sandwich

MCMLXXV wrote: »

Drive on left - Pass on right! End of!
Why? Because it's safer and makes for a more even flow of traffic!
Why, oh why do people find this so hard to understand!?! :mad:

Cus some of us are just so dumb, but please indulge us low IQ folk.
"Because it's safer" - just isnt quite so obvious to us all. Why is it safer?

:mad: as hell at those of superior intellect.

peasant

Sandwich wrote: »

Leaving the law and its observance or not aside for a mo.

Whats the from-first-principals reason for an overtaking only on the right ? Surely we all check our wing mirrors whether changing lane to the left or the right - so does it really matter whether on to one side cars might be moving faster than us, but not on the other ?

Because proper overtaking takes a bit more than just "checking your mirrors":

You need to guage the speed of all other cars in relation to yours

You need to slot yourself into faster traffic so that you don't cause anyone to have to brake for you

You need to leave enough of a safe distance to the car in front and behind

You need to pull in in front of the overtaken car at a safe distance.

All this can be accomplished so much more easily and safely when everybody sticks to the rules and drives on left and overtakes on right, as this rule takes a good few unknowns out of the equasion straight away and lets you concentrate on the task at hand.

Big Nasty

Sandwich wrote: »

Cus some of us are just so dumb, but please indulge us low IQ folk.
"Because it's safer" - just isnt quite so obvious to us all. Why is it safer?

:mad: as hell at those of superior intellect.

Really dude - it's not a difficult concept. There are already a dozen pages on it. It can't possibly be that hard to understand! The concept is very simple - you have two lanes: one is called the driving lane, the other is called the passing lane. Very straightforward - you drive in one, you use the other to pass and then move back into the first one. Using this method traffic flows more freely. If you cannot understand this go drive on motorways in the UK, Germany or Belgium and you will understand very, very quickly. You will also notice that it works. Similalry the OP put this thread up in response to his disbelief at Matt Coopers comments on this subject. The OP is obviously a learned driver who has both seen and understands this concept. I am not for one second trying to tell you that I am of superior intellect - I am telling you that this is a system that I feel is plain common sense and also, from experience, it is a system that works. For those of us who abide by this system it is extremely frustrating to listen to arguments against it. Therefore I am not going to respond to any further comments you or anyone else may post in relation to this topic. All the evidence has been posted for you and as another user posted already: read it - again, again and yet again until it sinks in.

L1011

MCMLXXV wrote: »

OMG! This thread is un-believable! Fair enough point that we only got our first motorway, what - fifteen years back. But does it really take fifteen years for the point to sink in?

Drive on left - Pass on right! End of!
Why? Because it's safer and makes for a more even flow of traffic!

Why, oh why do people find this so hard to understand!?! :mad:

Admittedly we only got our first proper stretch of three laner in 2006... but two years is still far too long!

The extra lane is an ADDITIONAL passing lane. It is on the outside.

It is not a 'merge lane' on the inside. It not anything else other than an extra lane on the outside.

Big Nasty

MYOB wrote: »

Admittedly we only got our first proper stretch of three laner in 2006... but two years is still far too long!

The extra lane is an ADDITIONAL passing lane. It is on the outside.

It is not a 'merge lane' on the inside. It not anything else other than an extra lane on the outside.

Right with ya dude!

Seth Brundle

I've kept my lip bitten for long enough on this one...
Frankly, GreeBo's views on driving laws and practices in Ireland are scary. However, I must admit that GreeBo's views are shared by the vast majority of drivers out there - blissfully ignorant of the rules, unaware of their inconsiderate road position. However, our government has done nothing substantial to improve the situation. We should have the RSA or the Dept. of Transport providing educational advertising (or at a minimum some cheapo "Keep Left" signs on the roads with 2 or more lanes).

AudiChris wrote: »

Not sure if anyone's mentioned it here yet, but my experience of driving on the continent is that every stays in the leftmost lane except when overtaking.

If you're in the leftmost lane and you see someone coming down the merging lane, you move into the overtaking lane (if it's clear) until the driver's joined the left lane and you know whether you'll be slotting in behind them because they're going faster than you or whether you'll be staying in the overtaking lane and overtaking them because they're slower than you.

This system removes the need for a dedicated, full-time merging lane and takes a lot of stress away from the person merging as they have maximum space and time to establish themselves in their lane.

Whilst this is good considerate practice, there is no obligation (in Ireland) to move right to allow drivers merge onto the roadway. Drivers should manage to reach the appropriate speed before actually merging. If the driver does not have sufficient distance to reach the appropriate speed (or get a slot) by the end of the slip road then they must stop and wait until they can merge safely.

IrishSpeedTraps wrote: »

What type of driving licence do you have?

Do you have any form of advanced driving training?

What motorway do you most frequently drive on and how often do you drive on it (daily/weekly/etc)?

Can this be answered please?

daveharnett wrote: »

I've given up on land discipline on the the Naas-Dublin stretch of the N7.
I put the head down and stick to the middle lane. The simple reason is that everybody else is doing it!

I find that driving in lane 1 (the left most lane) is often the quickest because so many inconsiderate drivers stick to driving in lane 2.

Wertz wrote: »

If this happens I would whole heartedly support the green's proposal to lower the mway limit to 100kmph, purely from a safety aspect.

Reducing the speed limit on a motorway to 100 has sweet FA to do with improving safety. Unsafe drivers (like Greebo) will be bad driver no matter where they drive. If the government want to improve road safety then they should first start with driver education!
It would also help if the laws were not left vague as is the case with many laws (e.g undertaking).
However, its good to know that the Greens can still keep up the dumb ideas when it comes to transport! (Was this Mary White's idea?)

Capt'n Midnight

I've been on 3 lane motorways in the UK. Trucks mostly stayed in the left lane at 80kmph (50mph) with large gaps in front of them. The middle lane was faster but people doing less than the speed limit pulled in the gaps ahead of the trucks and back into the middle lane to pass. people doing over the speed limit moved between the middle lane and the outer lane. People at the speed limit stayed in the middle lane. And all this was in heavy traffic.

On other roads where the left lane wasn't filled with conveys of trucks no one stayed in the middle lane for long.

I would like to see points for driving in the middle lane when the left lane is empty. Actually I would like them to get points every time someone undertakes them.

In the US some roads are classified as freeways and you are free to travel at any speed you like in any lane. We don't have them on this side of the pond.


On the subject of merging, you must yield to traffic already in a lane you want to move to.

Anan1

kbannon wrote: »

I find that driving in lane 1 (the left most lane) is often the quickest because so many inconsiderate drivers stick to driving in lane 2.

Me too, but be very careful - the middle-lane GreeBos of this world are prone to swerving when they wake up and see that they've almost missed their exit. These days I never undertake without using the horn - it's just too dangerous, IMO.

bigtimecharlie

quirke_folder wrote: »

Catch it again on Podcasting or Saturday morning after 10am.

Podcasting the programs seem to be hit and miss for me. They don't seem to keep the program's live for iTunes to download for more than 2 days after the program.

Am I correct or is there something I'm missing?

E92

randomer wrote: »

Are you being serious?

It's in the ROTR.

It's inconsiderate to other road users to dawdle when you could be driving at the speed limit, and they can fail you in the driving test for it too.

GreeBo

Anan1 wrote: »

Me too, but be very careful - the middle-lane GreeBos of this world are prone to swerving when they wake up and see that they've almost missed their exit.

No, the middle lane Greebos as you so delightfully yet childishly name us, move into lane 1 in plenty of time to exit at our leisure. The freaks are those who are doing 140kph up the outside lane until the last possible second and then cut across 2-3 other lanes to get their exit.

Anan1 wrote: »

These days I never undertake without using the horn - it's just too dangerous, IMO.

Ah so you dont drive in lane 2 "because its the law" but you do "undertake"?
Run that one by us again please?

GreeBo

E92 wrote: »

It's in the ROTR.

It's inconsiderate to other road users to dawdle when you could be driving at the speed limit, and they can fail you in the driving test for it too.

Post a link please.

You can be failed for "not making progress", there are minimum speeds on the motorway for a reason. If you read the big blue signs you can even see it for yourself.

Not driving at the limit does not mean you are not making progress. Thats such a stupid statement to make. I mean, take a look at the word "limit", no where does that state or otherwise imply that its a lower limit.

GreeBo

kbannon wrote: »

I've kept my lip bitten for long enough on this one...
Frankly, GreeBo's views on driving laws and practices in Ireland are scary.

In future can you prefix your posts with "danger hyperbole ahead!" so I can sit down first?
I asked one question about one aspect of motorway driving.

kbannon wrote: »

Whilst this is good considerate practice, there is no obligation (in Ireland) to move right to allow drivers merge onto the roadway. Drivers should manage to reach the appropriate speed before actually merging. If the driver does not have sufficient distance to reach the appropriate speed (or get a slot) by the end of the slip road then they must stop and wait until they can merge safely.

So you agree that its not always possible to merge onto the motorway and you think that these cars should stop on the slip road? You need to go chat with MYOB then as he thinks you are a moron and a crap driver.

kbannon wrote: »

Can this be answered please?

Not that it has any bearing on the point, full, no, m50, daily. Your (and everyone else who would like to posts) turn please.

kbannon wrote: »

I find that driving in lane 1 (the left most lane) is often the quickest because so many inconsiderate drivers stick to driving in lane 2.

so you undertake them all in lane 2? Shouldnt you be doing that in lane 3? Isnt that what its there for?

kbannon wrote: »

Reducing the speed limit on a motorway to 100 has sweet FA to do with improving safety. Unsafe drivers (like Greebo) will be bad driver no matter where they drive. If the government want to improve road safety then they should first start with driver education!
It would also help if the laws were not left vague as is the case with many laws (e.g undertaking).

Yes I am freakishly dangerous on the roads, have the blood of thousands on my hands in fact. Get over yourself, me staying in lane 2 is far less dangerous than you ploughing up the inside of everyone with your "Im so right look at me" attitude.

GreeBo

AudiChris wrote: »

My point is that proper lane discipline negates your pointless plan for a dedicated merge lane. Proper lane discipline keeps everyone safe and removes stress from all concerned.

'Fraid not. Your so called "proper lane" discipline is totally made up and exists only in your head. If this was law then there would be no need for my argument. However its not a law and its not even mentioned in the ROTR so I still say its safer to use lane 1 as a merging lane.

If you think its not only in your head then please show us all where it says it in ROTR.

Blanchguy

Ok, how about this then, forget about the nitty gritty of rules of the road. I've driven in Europe and the UK. Traffic flows better when everyone keeps right. That's why it's the law. The 3 lane stretch of N7 coming up to Newlands cross is a joke. There are people doing between 80 and 110kmph scattered randomly across 3 lanes (Limit is 100kmph). It is very difficult to make progress at the speed limit which surely is the aim of a multilane road. Next you'll be asking why do we drive on the left.

-Chris-

GreeBo wrote: »

'Fraid not. Your so called "proper lane" discipline is totally made up and exists only in your head. If this was law then there would be no need for my argument. However its not a law and its not even mentioned in the ROTR so I still say its safer to use lane 1 as a merging lane.

If you think its not only in your head then please show us all where it says it in ROTR.

Rules Of The Road wrote: »

Joining the Motorway:

• Give way to traffic already on the motorway.
• Adjust your speed as you join the motorway so you match, as near as possible, the general speed of traffic in that lane.
• Treat each lane change as a seperate manoeuvre. Stay in the left-hand lane long enough to adjust to the speed of traffic before attempting to overtake.

I.E. don't use the merging lane for overtaking, it's there to give you an opportunity to MATCH YOUR SPEED with existing vehicles in the left lane and enter the carriageway safely.

Rules Of The Road wrote: »

On The Motorway
Using lanes properly

It is very important that you understand the purpose of each lane on a motorway.


Lane 1

The normal 'keep left' rule applies. Stay in this lane unless you are overtaking.

Lane 2

On a two-lane motorway, use this for overtaking only and move back into lane 1 when you have finished. You may also use this lane to accommodate traffic merging from the left.
On a three-lane motorway, you may stay in this centre lane while there is slower moving traffic in lane 1.

I think this one is self explanatory...

Rules Of The Road wrote: »

Leaving the Motorway
When you leave the motorway, you will first enter a deceleration lane. If possible, keep up your speed until you enter this lane, but then slow down and check for signs showing a lower speed limit. Use your speedometer to make sure you are obeying the reduced limit

Again, with proper driving practice, the merging and de-merging lanes are where you adjust your speed, not the motorway itself. Therefore there's no need for a dedicated merging/de-merging lane.

Penalty Points wrote: »

List of All Penalty Points Offences

Title of Offence - Failure to drive on left
Penalty Points on Payment of Fixed Charge - 1
Penalty Points on Court Conviction - 3

And to prove that you're supposed to drive on the left, they've made it a penalty point-able offence. As soon as this offence becomes "live", you'll soon find your full driving licence being taken from you.


So, in summary:

GreeBo wrote: »

'Fraid not. Your so called "proper lane" discipline is totally made up and exists only in your head.

In my head, and in the ROTR.

GreeBo wrote: »

If this was law

It quite plainly is.

GreeBo wrote: »

there would be no need for my argument.

There is no need for your argument.

Wertz

kbannon wrote: »

Reducing the speed limit on a motorway to 100 has sweet FA to do with improving safety. Unsafe drivers (like Greebo) will be bad driver no matter where they drive. If the government want to improve road safety then they should first start with driver education!
It would also help if the laws were not left vague as is the case with many laws (e.g undertaking).
However, its good to know that the Greens can still keep up the dumb ideas when it comes to transport! (Was this Mary White's idea?)

TBH I was being a little facetious with that bit of my post...the only reason I would "support" the green's mway limit changes is because this other proposal to toll the hard shoulder will never come to pass (it can't can it?).
Hypothetically, would you feel safe doing the currentlimit if the hard shoulder was also full of cars? Like I say I like to have the security of that strip of tar for run off should it happen to ever be necessary.
On it's own the speed reduction is about as foolish a move as you could make on Irish roads...average traffic flow speed is already below the limit due to lane hogging, phantom jams and other bad roadcraft so knocking 20kmph off that speed is going to make a mess of whatever bit of efficiency we can get out of the road network.
I don't know who proposed the speed thing...possibly Eamonn Ryan. It sounds likesomething Mary White would say, but AFAIK it was based on the science of carbon emissions, so either Ryan or Gormley.
I agree re driver ed. Not just new drivers either...lot of more seasoned rpoad users out there that need to spruce up some...

randomer

E92 wrote: »

It's in the ROTR.

It's inconsiderate to other road users to dawdle when you could be driving at the speed limit, and they can fail you in the driving test for it too.

The speed "limit" is a limit. It is not a target. Especially on multi lane roads, I regularly drive below the speed limit. I try to drive at the appropriate speed, which in a lot of cases is below the speed limit.

In recent times, I have driven above the posted speed limit, where I thought it to be appropriate. I used to stick rigidly to the 60kmph limit on the M50 from Dublin Airport to Blanchardstown (obviously in the left lane), but I got sick of having HGVs tailgating me, so now I keep up with the car in front.