Matt Cooper - Driving in Hard Shoulder

oddone

Joker wrote: »

I've read the thread so far and am amazed at the attitudes here.

The DJELR is examining proposals for a new offence for not keeping left unless overtaking. The hope is that it will carry a fine of 250 and 3 pts. It is something that we in Traffic Corps have mooted for quite a while; we find that it is a major cause of disruption and delay on motorways, and has led to some extreme accidents.

The Aussies have had this law in force for years, not to mention dual carriageways in city roads with side roads all over it, with very few accidents. Their driving test system is excellent, see www.rta.nsw.gov.au for details.

To be honest, if you cannot merge with traffic after 500 m of on-ramp and plenty of signposting, then you should probably hang up your keys permanently. As for lane discipline, there is a definite selfishness displayed by many drivers, driving along for ages in the overtaking lane, overtaking slowly while traffic builds up behind them. If there is room to move in for a moment to allow the faster moving traffic to pass, it makes the whole driving experience so much more comfortable for all involved.

I am reluctant to say that we have on occasion tugged people for not moving in when we are driving along, and occasionally prosecuted drivers for not yielding when we use sirens/lights. It shows a level of disrespect that would not have been tolerated 10 years ago, I am somewhat unsure as to how it became so prevalent.

Why are you reluctant to say that you have done your job
in relation to punishing people hogging the overtaking lane?
I am delighted to hear that this is being enforced although
personally i have never seen it happen.

Also can I ask seeing as it seems you are a member of the force are there
any plans to actually increase the size of the traffic corps to a point
where you are actually a visible and or noticeable presence on the road?

I'm sure you may tire of hearing this but as one of thousands of drivers who criss-crosses the country on our road network at all hours of the day and night the sheer lack of a Garda presence for me is quite worrying and
quite frankly disgraceful.

And I am making a sincere point, not having a go at you personally
just to be clear.

FuzzyWuzzyWazza

GreeBo wrote: »

No you dont, but if someone asks why its the law in a thread, dont bother posting if you are not going to answer the question. You must be loads of fun at debates.

"because it is!":pac:


np

I didn't see the point in repeating what other people have said on here already. It is the law because it helps provide a safe driving envoirment for people on our multi-lane roads. If everyone obeys the keep left rule then you would be pretty certin that any car in a lane to your right is going faster then you are. This means that 90% of the time you are driving you will not have to be too worried about pulling to the left and having someone in your blind spot as you should already be in the left lane and unable to pull over any more. Based on that alone, can you see why it is safer??

There are other reasons, but right now I am going to bed.;)

Voodoomelon

Ferris wrote: »

+1
In reality european drivers regularly speed by 10-20kmph over the limit on motorways, there is little enforcement of speed limits unless the speed is excessive. Anyone who has been on the M6 tollroad past Birmingham and doing 70mph will attest to being the slowest car on the road. The cops do no care as the risk is so low.

I noticed this all the way from Bournemouth to Fishguard, NO-ONE was doing 70mph, in fact there were parts (on 3 lane motorways) where I was doing well over 90mph along with everyone else in that lane! And these lanes were VERY busy and yet it all seemed so safe. Everyone monouvered effeciently, with plenty of warning and it was a very pleasant journey.

I dread to think what the same journey would be like with a road full of Irish people...

I.S.T.

GreeBo wrote: »

:rolleyes:

They are fair questions, if you are coming on here and telling everyone that the law is wrong, the rules of the road are wrong, then at least let us know what your expertise on the subject is. You can at least tell us your driving qualifications and experience.

I.S.T.

MYOB wrote:

Now, will you answer the question IrishSpeedTraps, myself and kbannon have asked you, multiple times? Its only a post above now.

Grenbo wrote:

I actually answered several posts if not pages ago. Still waiting for you to give your details...

I looked back and this is all I can find...

esel wrote:

I also note that you have ignored a number of requests to state your licence and experience. Touchy subject for you?

Grenbo wrote:

Hardly, its totally irrelevant to the argument. Will your point change if I say I have 25 years experience driving all over the world as a chauffeur versus if I say I have been driving 6 months on a full licence?

Now can you tell us do you actually possess a full driving licence? Are you a qualified driver? How long have you had your full licence (if at all)?

These are relevant question as you are telling us all the motorway lane rules as taught in the rules of the road are wrong. What is your experience in this area?

Boskowski

I've been readin' through this and I'm amused. I want in.
Greebo seems to have a motorway-phobia which mostly seems to evolve around gettin' on and off the motorway. Basically, proper use of the acceleration lanes seems to scare him so therefore he'd love to see the entire left lane to be one big - what he calls - merger lane.
Which baffles me. Because It isn't all that hard right? Learn how to do it 'cos it's a system we all are using so we better agree on the same rules.

Hard shoulders are no-no's. The are also called emergency lanes or breakdown lanes and that's what they're for and nothing else.

Acceleration lanes are for bringing your vehicle up to speed. A speed that matches - more or less - the speed in the left lane and enables you to merge onto the motorway safely. Their length is usually well measured to allow for tricky situations even. Deceleration lanes are the exact opposite. They allow you to get off the motorway.

The left lane is the most frequented lane - as it should be - and the left lane is also the slowest lane (naturally). For several reasons that is. For instance being the designated lane for vehicles that aren't allowed to travel at 120 km/h (HGV). So therefore the left lane should be handy enough to get into (from the acceleration lanes) and out of (onto the deceleration lanes). Or even staying there if you're perfectly happy with the speed the left lanes is traveling at.
The gaps between the vehicles after merging should sort themselves out as there are ROTR requirements for that too and when you're too close to the car in front of you after merging from an acceleration lane into the left lane you simply stay back a bit. Which in turn will allow for big enough gaps for vehicles merging onto the motorway at the next entry and so on.

If this isn't quick enough for you then you go into the middle lane - by which you are overtaking. After which you should go back into the left lane. That is unless it becomes obvious that there's more slow vehicles and that all the in-and-out-of-the-left-lane-business would become a bit stupid so you stay in the middle lane - because you keep overtaking. Then when you passed the entire trail of slow vehicles you go back into the left lane. If - while you're overtaking - you happen to run into someone in the middle lane that is not going fast enough for you (while you and he are overtaking) you either settle for that speed or move on to the third lane and so on and so on. But the important thing is that as soon as you're finished overtaking and you are able to resume traveling at your desired speed in a lane left from your lane you go back there. How soon you need to do that and what a reasonable gap between slow vehicles is that may justify staying in the overtaking lane is up to common sense I guess.

There maybe situations where traffic is heavy enough that you keep overtaking for miles and miles. But nonetheless when traffic gets sparse enough you should go back to the left when it becomes reasonable to do so.

E.g. in Germany you will often find signs with recommended or demanded minimum/maximum speeds for the different lanes. You will see HGV or caravan symbols over the left lane and an 80 or 100 km/h recommendation over it. Then you might see a 120km/h sign over the middle lane. That doesn't mean you're grand there if you do 120 all the time. The "Rechtsfahrgebot" is still in effect, what it means is for gods sake do 120 please while using the lane for overtaking cos if you don't you're endangering traffic that might travel at a much higher speed in that lane. You will see this in the USA a lot too.

Basically you can apply these easy rules like a cascade to the outside lanes, whatever number of lanes that it. This will ensure the following things.

1) Simple easy-to-understand rule-set (most important since every donk will eventually pass a drivin' test)
2) Proper cascading of faster speeds to the outside lanes
3) Most effective and safest utilization of the motorway

Easy to understand how it's supposed to work and also easy to understand how lane-hoggers upset the whole thing, right?

cyclopath2001

Anan1 wrote: »

I was actually pulled once for undertaking a plainclothes Garda in a completely unmarked car. .... in the overtaking lane, 70mph, not a car in sight.

Maybe he was 'acting the policeman'?

L1011

IrishSpeedTraps wrote: »

I looked back and this is all I can find...




Now can you tell us do you actually possess a full driving licence? Are you a qualified driver? How long have you had your full licence (if at all)?

These are relevant question as you are telling us all the motorway lane rules as taught in the rules of the road are wrong. What is your experience in this area?

peasent found his answer, he said he has a full licence, with no advanced training.

As it appears Greebo wants us to answer the same - full licence, IAM in my case.

Anan1

cyclopath2001 wrote: »

Maybe he was 'acting the policeman'?

He was real.

Seth Brundle

GreeBo wrote: »

So you agree that its not always possible to merge onto the motorway and you think that these cars should stop on the slip road? You need to go chat with MYOB then as he thinks you are a moron and a crap driver.

In the normal course of events it should always be possible to merge smoothly with no need for anyone to brake at all. However, with unconfident, inexperenced, or just plain thick drivers on our roads, failure to merge properly is all too common and almost accepted (by the practice of moving right to let the merger on).
However, I don't recall MYOB referring to me as a moron and a crap driver - can you please point that one out to me?

GreeBo wrote: »

so you undertake them all in lane 2? Shouldnt you be doing that in lane 3? Isnt that what its there for?

I should but because there tend to be too many lane hoggers in both lanes 2 and 3, lane 1 is usually the fastest.
Get yourself a good viewing spot along the 3 lane sections of the M50 or N7 and you will see exactly what I mean.

GreeBo wrote: »

Yes I am freakishly dangerous on the roads, have the blood of thousands on my hands in fact. Get over yourself, me staying in lane 2 is far less dangerous than you ploughing up the inside of everyone with your "Im so right look at me" attitude.

Whilst I don't think anyone suggested that you are responsible for the blood of thousands, you yourself have shown a lack of understanding for the most basic principle of driving in Ireland - to keep left.

Seth Brundle

IrishSpeedTraps wrote: »

They are fair questions, if you are coming on here and telling everyone that the law is wrong, the rules of the road are wrong, then at least let us know what your expertise on the subject is. You can at least tell us your driving qualifications and experience.

he has...

GreeBo wrote: »

Not that it has any bearing on the point, full, no, m50, daily. Your (and everyone else who would like to posts) turn please.

Mena

There was a huge ad campaign in South Africa for years pushing the "Keep left Pass right" mantra. We really need something similar here...

GreeBo

Voodoomelon wrote: »

I noticed this all the way from Bournemouth to Fishguard, NO-ONE was doing 70mph, in fact there were parts (on 3 lane motorways) where I was doing well over 90mph along with everyone else in that lane! And these lanes were VERY busy and yet it all seemed so safe. Everyone monouvered effeciently, with plenty of warning and it was a very pleasant journey.

Again, I dont see why you think its ok to break the law when it comes to speeding, but driving in lane 2 is a severe no no? Speeding is just as inconsiderate and dangerous to other drivers who may pull out to overtake at 100kph and not realise that you are doing 150kph behind them.

Alun

GreeBo wrote: »

Speeding is just as inconsiderate and dangerous to other drivers who may pull out to overtake at 100kph and not realise that you are doing 150kph behind them.

Not realise? What the hell are those spherical things in the front of your head, and that shiny reflective thing on your windscreen, that magically allows you to see behind you, for then?

My mind is well and truly boggled by this thread, it really is. When you look in your mirrors to decide whether to overtake or not, you don't just look once, you look two, three or even more times, thereby being able to judge the closing speed of any traffic that's coming up behind you.

If they're going at a speed such that they are likely to have to brake to avoid hitting you if you pull out, you slow down ever so slightly to let them past, and overtake once it's safe to do so, simple. The absolute speeds are irrelevant here, only the relative closing speed.

GreeBo

kbannon wrote: »

In the normal course of events it should always be possible to merge smoothly with no need for anyone to brake at all. However, with unconfident, inexperenced, or just plain thick drivers on our roads, failure to merge properly is all too common and almost accepted (by the practice of moving right to let the merger on).

You yourself said

kbannon wrote: »

Drivers should manage to reach the appropriate speed before actually merging. If the driver does not have sufficient distance to reach the appropriate speed (or get a slot) by the end of the slip road then they must stop and wait until they can merge safely.

With no mention of the driver being thick or otherwise. I have no control over the 10 people merging in front of me, if they slow down to merge then its pretty likely that I will be traveling too slowly to merge properly/easily.

kbannon wrote: »

I should but because there tend to be too many lane hoggers in both lanes 2 and 3, lane 1 is usually the fastest.

So you pick and choose which road laws you obey? Hows life in that glass house of yours?

kbannon wrote: »

you yourself have shown a lack of understanding for the most basic principle of driving in Ireland - to keep left.

No, I have asked why its the law. In they same way as I might ask why is overtaking on the left illegal.

Heres a laugh. Can you tell me why overtaking on the left is illegal?

-Chris-

Mods - please, please, please lock this thread.

It's going around in circles and now my brain hurts!

Doodee

Alun wrote: »

My mind is well and truly boggled by this thread, it really is. When you look in your mirrors to decide whether to overtake or not, you don't just look once, you look two, three or even more times, thereby being able to judge the closing speed of any traffic that's coming up behind you.

You forgot to mention to check your blind spots as well


People who sit in the right hand lane and justify themselves because they are doing the speedlimit at idiots and need to be re taught.

Anan1

Well, people, now you know why learner drivers aren't allowed on motorways.:)

Marcus.Aurelius

oddone wrote: »

Also can I ask seeing as it seems you are a member of the force are there any plans to actually increase the size of the traffic corps to a point where you are actually a visible and or noticeable presence on the road?

There are plans for increases, but the reduced budget this year will probably dampen that one.

I'm sure you may tire of hearing this but as one of thousands of drivers who criss-crosses the country on our road network at all hours of the day and night the sheer lack of a Garda presence for me is quite worrying and quite frankly disgraceful.

Our presence on roads is decided by senior officers, who are not interested in road safety, only promotions and high returns. I would like to be able to say we do our best, but that's not the case now. Our higher officers have no interest in preventing accidents, only in wasting resources and keeping the speeding returns low. When the privatised system is introduced, the returns will skyrocket; the govt will declare it a success and the RSA lapdogs will wag their tails.

Zulu

GreeBo wrote: »

Heres a laugh. Can you tell me why overtaking on the left is illegal?

It's called undertaking. And it's dangerous.

If you wish to debate why something is law, I sugest taking it to the "legal" forum.

I might also suggest for your interest that no one is saying it's ok to break the speed limit, however, everyone else is united against your inconsiderate and dangerous stance that it's ok to hog the middle lanes when not overtaking.

Marcus.Aurelius

GreeBo wrote: »

No, I have asked why its the law. In they same way as I might ask why is overtaking on the left illegal.

Heres a laugh. Can you tell me why overtaking on the left is illegal?

The law requires that we keep left unless overtaking to facilitate the smooth flow of traffic. This is mirrored in other countries that drive on the left side of the road. In the continent, the opposite is observed, because they drive in the right lane.

It is theoretically illegal to undertake on the left, though this is rarely enforced. The thought is that the overtaking lane is for overtaking, the inside is for driving. The overtaker may not notice the undertaker, thus leading to a hazardous situation.

In practice, most gardaí are not in the habit of prosecuting those who undertake because the overtaker blocking them refuses to move in after being flashed at or beeped, though they have sufficient room and distance to do so. Prosecution for undertaking usually refers to serial undertakers that do it habitually just to get ahead every 500 metres.

Hope that goes some way in explaining my understanding at least.

GreeBo

Alun wrote: »

Not realise? What the hell are those spherical things in the front of your head, and that shiny reflective thing on your windscreen, that magically allows you to see behind you, for then?

Yes not realise. A car traveling at 150kph covers 1.25km in 30 seconds, if Im doing 50kph less than they are then they are catching up by nearly 500m every 30 seconds.
If the law is 100kph why do you think its ok to break it? Do you not think that people make decisions based on their proximity to the speed limit?

Alun wrote: »

The absolute speeds are irrelevant here, only the relative closing speed.

The speed relative to the speed limit is relevant also. Nobody should be traveling faster than the posted limit unless they have flashing blue lights.

Alun

GreeBo wrote: »

Do you not think that people make decisions based on their proximity to the speed limit?

Unfortunately, yes some inexperienced people do. Those with more experience of real life driving conditions don't.

The speed relative to the speed limit is relevant also. Nobody should be travelling faster than the posted limit unless they have flashing blue lights.

And if, for whatever reason they are? Are you just going to pull out in front of them and cause a crash, possibly killing not only them but possibly yourself or someone else, for a matter of principle?

Marcus.Aurelius

GreeBo wrote: »

Yes not realise. A car traveling at 150kph covers 1.25km in 30 seconds, if Im doing 50kph less than they are then they are catching up by nearly 500m every 30 seconds.
If the law is 100kph why do you think its ok to break it? Do you not think that people make decisions based on their proximity to the speed limit?

The inaccuracy of speedometers make it difficult to judge correctly the approximate speed of the vehicle in any case. That, combined with the tolerance of gardaí +/- the posted limit may mean that the individual in question is not even speeding.

At any rate, it is not your place to police the nation's roads, obey the keep left rule. If you have a tail of cars behind you, you are moving slower than they are, that's why they caught up with you. If you have room to move left, it is a simple act of courtesy and decent driving.

The speed relative to the speed limit is relevant also. Nobody should be traveling faster than the posted limit unless they have flashing blue lights.

Not your decision, if they are indeed exceeding the limit, that is their decision, slowing them down is illegal if you are breaking the keep left rule. I would sooner prosecute a lane hogger than a speeder driving at 10-15 kph over the limit on the M50.

GreeBo

Joker wrote: »

The law requires that we keep left

It is theoretically illegal to undertake on the left,

So now the argument is that one of them is a law, but the other is only theoretical? :rolleyes:

Joker wrote: »

being flashed at or beeped,

ROTR wrote:

Only use a horn to:

* warn other road users of on-coming danger, or
* make them aware of your presence for safety reasons when reasonably necessary.

Remember, the horn does not give you the right of way.

Flashing or beeping at someone to get them out of your way is totally wrong and NOT part of the rules of the road.

Joker wrote: »

Hope that goes some way in explaining my understanding at least.

thanks it does, but it again highlights the fact that those jumping on me about lane 2 "because its the law" have no issues with the rules that they themselves break.

Zulu

GreeBo wrote: »

The speed relative to the speed limit is relevant also. Nobody should be traveling faster than the posted limit unless they have flashing blue lights.

This thread isn't/wasn't about speeding until you created that particular straw-man.

The problem being discussed is people who hog the overtaking lanes. Why are you trying to change it?

No.
Wait.
I know the answer to that one.

GreeBo

Alun wrote: »

real life driving conditions don't.

"real life driving" meaning "speed when you think its appropriate"?

Alun wrote: »

And if, for whatever reason they are? Are you just going to pull out in front of them and cause a crash, possibly killing not only them but possibly yourself or someone else, for a matter of principle?

JOKER wrote:

same point as Alun

Not at all. You are missing the point. Im saying that someone could pull out in front of a speeding car because they dont realise that the car is travelling 50% faster then the posted speed limit.
I never mentioned pulling out in front of them to slow them down, you guys made that one up.

Zulu

GreeBo wrote: »

Flashing or beeping at someone to get them out of your way is totally wrong and NOT part of the rules of the road.

...but you don't care about the ROTR.

Marcus.Aurelius

GreeBo wrote: »

So now the argument is that one of them is a law, but the other is only theoretical? :rolleyes:

I would humbly request that you do not sneer at what you clearly do not understand. The law is unclear as to what constitutes undertaking in a motorway situation. It is also compounded by a lack of general policy from DOJELR or Garda HQ. It is interpreted as to mean dangerous undertaking rather than just undertaking I would dare to say.

Flashing or beeping at someone to get them out of your way is totally wrong and NOT part of the rules of the road.

Flashing another car to remind them of your presence is quite acceptable. Beeping at said car after several minutes behind them while the driving lane is empty is acceptable. The ROTR are merely an interpretation of the law and are good rules in the majority of cases, but are just that: an interpretation.

The law only states that the horn may not be used after 11:30 PM in residential areas, IIRC. EDIT: besides that, the Public Order Act can be used in some cases.

Zulu

GreeBo wrote: »

thanks it does, but it again highlights the fact that those jumping on me about lane 2 "because its the law" have no issues with the rules that they themselves break.

You are assuming that others here break them rules - that pure speculation.
The only one here thats admitted to breaking the law is you.