Ireland Team Announcement

DBraithwaite

I'd agree with not burning them out before they leave school, but until that happens its hard to see an altenative.

[Jackass]

Also, don't forget that the majority of our international players come from 2 teams in Ireland. We only have 4 teams to supply players to, 2 of them are unable to compete at the top level.

England have a handful of teams competeing at the top level, and spread their resources across 14 teams, so the head to heads of club sides isn't really a fair comparrison. Also when you get to European shield level, the English absolutely dominate it. They also dominated the Churchill cup. It's difficult to measure it with the French sides, as they aren't remotely interested in Europe, but if it was their main focus of competition like it is over here, I'd be surprised if an Irish or English side won it more than once or twice between all the teams. The fact that it's a secondary competition to them and they've won it so many times already illistrates that. And it's not taken 100% seriously now, but it wasn't even taken 50% seriously by the French up until very recently.

I don't think any one's arguing that at the very peak of Irish rugby (National team, Leinster & Munster) we're more than able to compete, it's beyond that (Ulster, Connacht, National "A" team etc.) we're no where near the top nations as they have much more depth than we do.

anonymous_joe

SpAcEd OuT wrote: »

Maybe I am wrong but I could of sworn I heard somewhere that we have the same size pool for Rugby as Australia yet they are so far ahead.

They've about 30,000, we have 20,000 or so.

Podge_irl

[Jackass] wrote: »

It's difficult to measure it with the French sides, as they aren't remotely interested in Europe, but if it was their main focus of competition like it is over here, I'd be surprised if an Irish or English side won it more than once or twice between all the teams.

Not all the French teams take it seriously, but Toulose most certainly do and that does not stop them losing from time to time! I think the French could quite likely do better, but I'm not sure whether they would win it more often - I imagine it would more be a case getting one more team into the quarters or something. While the likes of bourgoin dont take the HEC seriously, I dont think they would be successful if they did anyway.

newmills

Bit unfair to say that Ulster and connaught supply next to or nothing to the Ireland set up Jackass.
Can we say that David Humphreys, Andrew Trimble, Paddy Johns, Jeremy Davidson, Tommy Bowe, Neil Best, Rory Best etc have contributed nothing to Ireland.
Ulster have some incredibly talented youngsters coming through their setup. And what of a couple of years back when they won the Magners League. Is it only relevant when Leinster win it?

marco_polo

newmills wrote: »

Bit unfair to say that Ulster and connaught supply next to or nothing to the Ireland set up Jackass.
Can we say that David Humphreys, Andrew Trimble, Paddy Johns, Jeremy Davidson, Tommy Bowe, Neil Best, Rory Best etc have contributed nothing to Ireland.
Ulster have some incredibly talented youngsters coming through their setup. And what of a couple of years back when they won the Magners League. Is it only relevant when Leinster win it?

I reckon they will have a higher representation in the next few years. The age profile of the current team is quite young. If there are a few more players like Pollock (looks like he will be a smashing player) on the way then the future looks bright.

[Jackass]

newmills wrote: »

Bit unfair to say that Ulster and connaught supply next to or nothing to the Ireland set up Jackass.
Can we say that David Humphreys, Andrew Trimble, Paddy Johns, Jeremy Davidson, Tommy Bowe, Neil Best, Rory Best etc have contributed nothing to Ireland.
Ulster have some incredibly talented youngsters coming through their setup. And what of a couple of years back when they won the Magners League. Is it only relevant when Leinster win it?

Fair comment. No I don't mean it like that. Sure one of the greatest ever Irish players, Simon Geoghegan, was a product of Connacht rugby also.

I just meant in recent years the majority of the team came from 2 sides (I think for a couple of years after Humphries retired they were the only 2 Irish teams with players in the national team first 15 - for a couple of years anyway).

But yeah I take it back in the context I said it, I don't mean to patronise, I just meant in terms of the overall amount of teams our pool of players is picked from.

Heroditas

karmabass wrote: »

We're more than able to compete.

Our lack of 6N and 5N titles and Grand slams says otherwise

redroar1942

Heroditas wrote: »

Our lack of 6N and 5N titles and Grand slams says otherwise

Would you care to list the frequency and destination of the Grand slam and 5/6N winners and then compare thoses nations playing pools to ours?

I think we're more competive considering our numbers and our sports popularity standing in Ireland.

kingking85

disgrace that Mal O Kelly isnt in the squad, we should put out our best squad playing New Zealand but instead we'll have Donncha playing like an average lock and Mick O Driscoll wasting a spot on the bench or Caldwell who isnt big enough or good enough for International yet.

redroar1942

kingking85 wrote: »

disgrace that Mal O Kelly isnt in the squad, we should put out our best squad playing New Zealand but instead we'll have Donncha playing like an average lock and Mick O Driscoll wasting a spot on the bench or Caldwell who isnt big enough or good enough for International yet.

O'Kelly is yesterdays man. You lot are screaming for new blood in one sentance and screaming for old fav's past their best in the next. Time to get off the fence.

Crash

Meh, I wouldn't be screaming for Mal, and I wasn't overly shocked, but a wee bit surprised. At the moment he's ahead of O'Driscoll in terms of form, and match experience this season, and MOD at 30 isn't exactly a new young talent.

Blured

redroar1942 wrote: »

O'Kelly is yesterdays man. You lot are screaming for new blood in one sentance and screaming for old fav's past their best in the next. Time to get off the fence.

People did scream for the blooding of new players in the past - but that was over a 3-6 year period with EOS in charge. These tests are very important and not the type of games (IMO) to be trying new things.


The problem with MOK being dropped and MOD being kept, is that MOK is arguably the form lock in this country and the minute, so dropping him and keeping an in poor form MOD makes very little sense. MOD may be able to cover the backrow - but so can Donnacha Ryan - so I just cannot see the reasons to keep MOD ahead of MOK

redroar1942

The problem with MOK being dropped and MOD being kept, is that MOK is arguably the form lock in this country and the minute,

Fairly thin arguement imo. Agree with you about the importance of the AI's though. Old 'hornblower' Francis made some good points about keeping Casey, in yesterdays Tribune.

Still only the squad for the Canada game and if MOD does'nt cut the musturd
changes will be made.

Crash

Only the squad for the canada game?? figured that if they cut it down to a 34 man training squad that would be the training squad for all 3 games, bar any injuries etc.

redroar1942

Nope just the Canada game as far as I know. Even if its not the AI's are not a tournament so you are not restricted to your original squad.

SpAcEd OuT

redroar1942 wrote: »

O'Kelly is yesterdays man. You lot are screaming for new blood in one sentance and screaming for old fav's past their best in the next. Time to get off the fence.

Not for a test game which will decide world rankings!

I mean it was a shocking decision. MOK is the best lock in the country right now and didn't even make the squad. Instead we will more than likely have DOC starting who has been nowhere near the standard of MOK this season.

But the icing on the cake was to put MOD ahead of him! MOD is hardly one for the future he is constantly below average to average in every game and doesn't deserve to even be in consideration for the starting 15 of Ireland.

MOK should be first choice on current form ffs not 4th. Its a disgrace.

Podge_irl

I agree that MOK is the form lock in the country at the moment, but I wouldnt be exactly pushed about him not starting. I'm not sure he has the gas for international rugby anymore, though he would be a decent bet for 50 minutes I guess. I thought he would have been in the squad though, and having MOD ahead of him is a bit silly - Ryan and Caldwell I can understand. I can only assume that Cullen would be there in MOD's place if he had not been injured.

twinytwo

SpAcEd OuT wrote: »

Not for a test game which will decide world rankings!

I mean it was a shocking decision. MOK is the best lock in the country right now and didn't even make the squad. Instead we will more than likely have DOC starting who has been nowhere near the standard of MOK this season.

But the icing on the cake was to put MOD ahead of him! MOD is hardly one for the future he is constantly below average to average in every game and doesn't deserve to even be in consideration for the starting 15 of Ireland.

MOK should be first choice on current form ffs not 4th. Its a disgrace.

id like to quote marcus horan on this topic.... "being in front of him (Duncha) is like being pushed by a tractor"

twinytwo

[Jackass] wrote: »

In fairness, Mal is playing super rugby, but having him in the squad is a complete waste of time. IF it was on form and the world cup final was tomorrow I'd have no doubt he'd be in there, but I'd be surprised if he was still playing in 24 months, let alone 12. So there's no point holding back players in the selection.

I think other time wasters in the squad are Dowling, Trimble, P. Wallace & M. O'Driscoll.

Dowling & Trimble will never be international quality, Wallace in fairness is only there because there's no one else, but is only keeping the seat warm for the younger lads coming though, has no future at this level and O'Driscoll is a make weight in the squad, again not going to step up at this level but holding it down for the younger players coming through.

I think if O'Kelly was making way for Caldwell it may be no harm for O'Driscoll to make way for Toner to get game time at this level. I also think Dowling should be dropped for Johne Murphy, Trimble dropped for Cave & P. Wallace for O'Connor.

Although I applaud the inclusion of Cian Healy, Sexton, Earls, Caldwell & Ryan. Good to see youth getting a shot. Maybe my other suggestions above are a bit premature, but seeing as they all seem like natural succesors, maybe next time they'll get a run.

Strong squad though, and good to see BO'D retain the captaincey.

i agree with you on the fact that trimble should never see an ireland shirt again.. wallace is better at 12 than he will ever be at 10... i think dowling could have his time but we shall have to wait and see

Heroditas

redroar1942 wrote: »

Would you care to list the frequency and destination of the Grand slam and 5/6N winners and then compare thoses nations playing pools to ours?

I think we're more competive considering our numbers and our sports popularity standing in Ireland.

Rugby is hardly the number one sport in England, Scotland, Italy, Australia, South Africa, France either.
We have more players than Australia yet have beaten them how many times? We've far more rugby players than Scotland yet have won how many titles? I'm also certain we have more players than Wales yet they've managed 2 grand slams this decade.
Popularity of rugby in Ireland is a cop-out - it's a minority sport in plenty of other countries too.
Considering our numbers we should be achieving much more.

anonymous_joe

Heroditas wrote: »

Rugby is hardly the number one sport in England, Scotland, Italy, Australia, South Africa, France either.
We have more players than Australia yet have beaten them how many times? We've far more rugby players than Scotland yet have won how many titles? I'm also certain we have more players than Wales yet they've managed 2 grand slams this decade.
Popularity of rugby in Ireland is a cop-out - it's a minority sport in plenty of other countries too.
Considering our numbers we should be achieving much more.

We've less playes than Australia by a good 10,000. We've the same number as Wales.

As for competing, in the 8 years of the 6Nations, Ireland are second in the combined results table. No, we haven't won anything of note, and yes that's a pain in the arse, but we've been much more consistent than England or Wales in that time, and infinitely better than the Scots and the Italians.

Heroditas

And we've won nothing bar a few silver slavers. We've even done disastrously at one world cup and got to the Q/F of the one in 2003. I'd rather forget 1999.

anonymous_joe

Heroditas wrote: »

And we've won nothing bar a few silver slavers. We've even done disastrously at one world cup and got to the Q/F of the one in 2003. I'd rather forget 1999.

We bottle worse than NZ, but we've produced good teams. We can't use the old excuse of having no players anymore, the lads we had were good enough to do something, though I think we've misuses the resources we've had criminally.

The last WC was a disaster of magnificent proportions, but we really did have players good enough to challenge for at least the semis.

SpAcEd OuT

twinytwo wrote: »

id like to quote marcus horan on this topic.... "being in front of him (Duncha) is like being pushed by a tractor"

So? A fellow team mate praised him. Lets ignore both players performances this season despite the fact that MOK has been far superior and pick DOC ahead of him because Horan said so!

I don't have to quote anyone to empower my argument all I have to do is simply point to this season's performances.

And as for the ''Em.. well hes not up to the pace of international rugby'' comments what utter crap and a complete cop out. Show me one game where MOK struggled for fitness when compared to the other players on the pitch?

MikeHoncho

I would really love to see Mal break 100 caps for Ireland but the prospect is looking less likely now.

Stev_o

SpAcEd OuT wrote: »

So? A fellow team mate praised him. Lets ignore both players performances this season despite the fact that MOK has been far superior and pick DOC ahead of him because Horan said so!

I don't have to quote anyone to empower my argument all I have to do is simply point to this season's performances.

And as for the ''Em.. well hes not up to the pace of international rugby'' comments what utter crap and a complete cop out. Show me one game where MOK struggled for fitness when compared to the other players on the pitch?

MOK got his chance last year and looked so out of pace it was embarrassing he's too old and not up to to the pace of it FACT. MOD actually made a good impact last year when he came on off the bench.

Just please enough of this MOK crap great servant to Ireland and Leinster but the guy isnt international standard anymore let him enjoy his legendary status as it is without him getting embarrassed yet again by getting a another run out in green.

RugbyFanatic

Stev_o wrote: »

MOK got his chance last year and looked so out of pace it was embarrassing he's too old and not up to to the pace of it FACT. MOD actually made a good impact last year when he came on off the bench.

Just please enough of this MOK crap great servant to Ireland and Leinster but the guy isnt international standard anymore let him enjoy his legendary status as it is without him getting embarrassed yet again by getting a another run out in green.

We are not talking about last year we are talking about this year where he has shown he is more than up to the pace FACT.

Stev_o

RugbyFanatic wrote: »

We are not talking about last year we are talking about this year where he has shown he is more than up to the pace FACT.

If he wasnt up to it last year when he is was younger he is hardly gonna to be able to live up to the past a year on. If he started against the All Blacks it would be embarrassing.

Sandwich

RugbyFanatic wrote: »

We are not talking about last year we are talking about this year where he has shown he is more than up to the pace FACT.

In fact, not fact. Facts are objective not subjective,and verifiable by recognised independent criteria. Your statement is an opinion.

Crash

Ok ignore the last few posts. So Mal did fail to impress last year. I wa very disappointed with how he turned out next year. But we have a sweet game against them canadians - why not try him out? I was very disappointed with how mals games went last year, and didnt think he could line out for ireland again. However, he has had an amazing season, so why not try him out against a weaker team, and see how he holds up? because if he has the legs to hold homself against canada, i'm pretty sure that mal would hold himself against other teams?

I'd more than agree that he had issues with fitness last year, he faded awful quick. But in that case he should have been used as an impact sub, because either starting and doing a 50 minute match or coming off the bench for the end of the game, he's still a damn site better than a pleyer whos played a bunch of AIL games, and shouldnt be in that team.

pucan

anonymous_joe wrote: »

They've about 30,000, we have 20,000 or so.

Plus league converts and islanders.

twinytwo

anonymous_joe wrote: »

We've less playes than Australia by a good 10,000. We've the same number as Wales.

As for competing, in the 8 years of the 6Nations, Ireland are second in the combined results table. No, we haven't won anything of note, and yes that's a pain in the arse, but we've been much more consistent than England or Wales in that time, and infinitely better than the Scots and the Italians.[/quote
agreed.. how many great teams and great players have never won anything of importance

ALH-06

I don't think we should talk about consistency...

Unless of course you mean we've consistently been second or third best in the 6N, consistently failed to win trophies that were ours for the taking, consistently failed to achieve at the highest level, consistently crumbled under the weight of expectation...

A bit harsh maybe - there were of course some happy memories - but I really don't think we should look back on the last few years with pride at what we've achieved. That's unfortunate, but undeniable.

By the way, when is the Ireland 22 for Canada named? Isn't it supposed to be today?

RtD

Ireland: K Earls; T Bowe, B O'Driscoll, capt, L Fitzgerald, R Kearney, R O'Gara, E Reddan; M Horan, J Flannery, T Buckley, D O'Callaghan, P O'Callaghan, S Ferris, S Jennings, J Heaslip.
Replacements: R Best, J Hayes, R Caldwell, A Quinlan, D Wallace, P Wallace, P Stringer, S Horgan.

TarfHead

RtD wrote: »

Ireland: K Earls; T Bowe, B O'Driscoll, capt, L Fitzgerald, R Kearney, R O'Gara, E Reddan; M Horan, J Flannery, T Buckley, D O'Callaghan, P O'Callaghan, S Ferris, S Jennings, J Heaslip.
Replacements: R Best, J Hayes, R Caldwell, A Quinlan, D Wallace, P Wallace, P Stringer, S Horgan.

speed typist !

RTE say "Bench to be confirmed on Thursday". You've named 8. Clarify ?

RtD

Straight from the Beeb's mouth.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/rugby_union/irish/7708422.stm

bamboozle

interesting team, i'd rather have kearney at 15 and Earls on the wing so he can ease into international rugby gradually. exciting centre partnership, good to see shaggy dropped as his attitude seems to have been off for the last 18 months (slight improvement this season)
Obviously Buckley's form for Shannon in the AIL has stood to him.

would like to have seen a backrow of Wallace Jennings and Heaslip.

death1234567

Ferris? But who cares really its just a nothing game versus canada

Dools2007

bamboozle wrote: »

i'd rather have kearney at 15 and Earls on the wing

I could see this move being made a little while into the match if Earls is struggling although I do think that Kearney is going to be the long term option at full back so agree that he should have started there.

Overall, good mixture in the team, should be interesting

anonymous_joe

pucan wrote: »

Plus league converts and islanders.

Indeed, so quite a significant advantage over us. Smaller pool than the NZers and the Saffers but plenty more than we could ever muster.

twinytwo wrote: »

anonymous_joe wrote: »

We've less playes than Australia by a good 10,000. We've the same number as Wales.

As for competing, in the 8 years of the 6Nations, Ireland are second in the combined results table. No, we haven't won anything of note, and yes that's a pain in the arse, but we've been much more consistent than England or Wales in that time, and infinitely better than the Scots and the Italians.[/quote
agreed.. how many great teams and great players have never won anything of importance

Almost every New Zealand WC team you could hope to mention was probably the best in the world at the time.

ALH-06 wrote: »

I don't think we should talk about consistency...

Unless of course you mean we've consistently been second or third best in the 6N, consistently failed to win trophies that were ours for the taking, consistently failed to achieve at the highest level, consistently crumbled under the weight of expectation...

A bit harsh maybe - there were of course some happy memories - but I really don't think we should look back on the last few years with pride at what we've achieved. That's unfortunate, but undeniable.

By the way, when is the Ireland 22 for Canada named? Isn't it supposed to be today?

As I said, we've never been able to win a 6 Nations, but we had a very good solid team, that never quite had the ruthlessness to win.

We can be proud of the vast improvements from the early and mid 90s, and obviously disappointed at the failure to capitalise on our talented side. Let's hope things improve.

Serenity Now!

death1234567 wrote: »

Ferris? But who cares really its just a nothing game versus canada

Big bugger. Bags of pace for someone that size. Great handling skills almost as good as Leamy. Strong as. Good lineout jumper. Needs gametime.

It is not a "nothing game". Results dont only matter but pts in a game too when it comes to rankings.

RugbyFanatic

Stev_o wrote: »

If he wasnt up to it last year when he is was younger he is hardly gonna to be able to live up to the past a year on. If he started against the All Blacks it would be embarrassing.

Perhaps you don't realize this but you don't judge players on how they played in the past you judge them on how they are playing currently.

Under your logic Lomu would walk onto the NZ team and Murphy should never play for Ireland again.

Ridiculous.

Stev_o

RugbyFanatic wrote: »

Perhaps you don't realize this but you don't judge players on how they played in the past you judge them on how they are playing currently.

Under your logic Lomu would walk onto the NZ team and Murphy should never play for Ireland again.

Ridiculous.

Lomu would walk into any team in the world so thats a stupid comment to make tbh and Murphy has actually played well for us in the last year imo he did a fine job against Scotland and England before coming off injured...

I dont know what your trying to get at even England have realised they cant have a 34 year old in the second row. Seriously who is MOK capable of competing with in international terms? Albacete? Ali Williams?

Come off it. He's past it.

RugbyFanatic

Stev_o wrote: »

Lomu would walk into any team in the world so thats a stupid comment to make tbh and Murphy has actually played well for us in the last year imo he did a fine job against Scotland and England before coming off injured...

I dont know what your trying to get at even England have realised they cant have a 34 year old in the second row. Seriously who is MOK capable of competing with in international terms? Albacete? Ali Williams?

Come off it. He's past it.

Are you actually claiming that Lomu would walk onto any team currently? That is absurd.

In regards to Murphy he played poorly in the past so why play him now under your logic??


Who can MOK compete with? hes already more than proven himself against Palmer, Shaw, POC, DOC are these players to be scoffed at?

Stev_o

RugbyFanatic wrote: »

Are you actually claiming that Lomu would walk onto any team currently? That is absurd.

In regards to Murphy he played poorly in the past so why play him now under your logic??


Who can MOK compete with? hes already more than proven himself against Palmer, Shaw, POC, DOC are these players to be scoffed at?

Hey if you want to be the one that thinks Lomu was a fluke and wouldnt survive a minute in the modern era go ahead but alot of people including me will disagree with you, you obviously dont know just how goddamn good he was.

Against a team thats won how many games in the Premiership so far? Shaw is too old and Palmer is a journey man.

Serenity Now!

Stev_o wrote: »

Hey if you want to be the one that thinks Lomu was a fluke and wouldnt survive a minute in the modern era go ahead but alot of people including me will disagree with you, you obviously dont know just how goddamn good he was

Yes but you said he'd walk into any side now, didnt you??? :eek:

Stev_o

Serenity Now! wrote: »

Yes but you said he'd walk into any side now, didnt you??? :eek:

The guy is riddled with a life threatening disease pretty much and is all but retired from rugby. This is talking when he was still playing.

redroar1942

Heroditas wrote: »

Rugby is hardly the number one sport in England, Scotland, Italy, Australia, South Africa, France either.
We have more players than Australia yet have beaten them how many times? We've far more rugby players than Scotland yet have won how many titles? I'm also certain we have more players than Wales yet they've managed 2 grand slams this decade.
Popularity of rugby in Ireland is a cop-out - it's a minority sport in plenty of other countries too.
Considering our numbers we should be achieving much more.

Probably one of the more idiotic and badly worded posts I've read in a while. Everyone one of your points are factually wrong.

Serenity Now!

Stev_o wrote: »

The guy is riddled with a life threatening disease pretty much and is all but retired from rugby. This is talking when he was still playing.

In that case, I'd agree. He was the greatest thing to happen to the modern game. A true legend even for a Kiwi.