Motorway Service Areas May Be Delayed Up To A Year...

BluntGuy

Check out this link:

http://www.energy-business-review.com/article_news.asp?guid=D33F38AD-F3C6-49D9-AAB6-F8CF23ACFD8C



Make what you will of it, but it certainly isn't the best news.

EDIT:

The news has appeared here today, but from this it seems they at least want to have all 12 service areas up and running by late 2010:

http://hgvireland.com/news08a/hgv524.html

Amtmann

An interesting discussion has been developing on the Cashel to Cullahill thread about these Service Areas.

Please feel free to continue here!

I think, like MYOB, that quite a bit of land will be required to build these. I'd like to see one built close to Two Mile Borris or Ugly Urlingford on the M8.

BluntGuy

Well here's a preview of the M1 service area (which is part of a business park):

http://www.m1.ie/

The website was actually offline for a good while, but it's back and a lot more informative than before.

They also have a map of the proposed DOOR interestingly which, according to this, is to start at Naas (but that's another topic entirely, this one to be precise: http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=57915784#post57915784)

It's an interesting website, and provides a good insight into what is potentially our first real MSA.

L1011

dannym08 wrote: »

NO ONE goes at 50km/h(30mph) on that road......its closer to 80 or 90km/h...and if a decent auxillary lane is provided they will be able to get up to 120 and then join...like a normal entrance to the motorway...

and if you can get a private company, like Topaz, to run to the station there will be no running costs to the taxpayer...


and i agree esso is bad....it was actually the applegreen one i was talking about

I never said people do 50km/h there. I said that the inside lane is generally empty due to Irish people's weird driving style, meaning that people coming out from the service station at 50km/h are able to 'get away' with it to an extent.

A private firm is likely to pay less in site rental the higher their costs are. If they're building it (and hence taking on the costs), they're less likely to go forward for the tender in the first place. And fuel could end up dearer if there are higher costs.

BluntGuy - is that not the private Applegreen one thats piggybacking an existing exit rather than the NRA MSA?

BluntGuy

MYOB wrote: »

BluntGuy - is that not the private Applegreen one thats piggybacking an existing exit rather than the NRA MSA?

Actually, now that I think about it, you're probably right...

I'm sure I saw somewhere, that this was the so-called "southern M1 motorway service station". But I've seen the EIS for southern M1 services and I don't think it has anything to do with this.

However, dedicated motorway services are being provided at this exit AFAIK, so I doubt they'd build a seperate service area in close proximity.

Amtmann

BluntGuy wrote: »

Actually, now that I think about it, you're probably right...

I'm sure I saw somewhere, that this was the so-called "southern M1 motorway service station". But I've seen the EIS for southern M1 services and I don't think it has anything to do with this.

However, dedicated motorway services are being provided at this exit AFAIK, so I doubt they'd build a seperate service area in close proximity.

I thought the EIS indicated a wholly new, green field development?

Amtmann

BluntGuy wrote: »

Well here's a preview of the M1 service area (which is part of a business park):

http://www.m1.ie/

The website was actually offline for a good while, but it's back and a lot more informative than before.

They also have a map of the proposed DOOR interestingly which, according to this, is to start at Naas (but that's another topic entirely, this one to be precise: http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=57915784#post57915784)

It's an interesting website, and provides a good insight into what is potentially our first real MSA.

No mate, that can't be right. That's a business park, not a service area.

BluntGuy

Yes. I looked at it more, turns out that it isn't an MSA...

The old m1.ie certainly presented it in that manner though. It seemed more like a service area with business premises attached, now it looks like it's the other way around.

The EIS (http://www.nra.ie/Publications/EISPublications/) really doesn't fit in with the diagram shown there.

It's confusing however, because the business park seems to be where the MSA is planned to be.

And why provide a dedicated motorway services when there is going to be another one in the immediate vicinity. When I checked the m1 business park plans on the old m1.ie, there was a fully fledged MSA with a hotel attached. It matched the NRA's plans perfectly...

I guess the plans have changed...

Bluetonic

BluntGuy wrote: »

It's confusing however, because the business park seems to be where the MSA is planned to be.

The proposed MSA is a good 2km south of the Applegreen garage and the Walshestown M1 exit, just north of the Ballough bridge over the M1.

As a side the Applegreen garage and restaurant is nearly complete. It will have enough business alone from traffic to and from Balbriggan.

L1011

Looking at the planning application, its barely more than a normal Applegreen anyway. The 'restaurant' will presumably be a Wimpy Bar (they own the franchise here). The 'real' MSAs have kids play areas, 24 hour hot delis, etc required in their standards.

The Applegreen off J2A of the M4 has about as many facilities as that M1 one but they're not claiming it to be a motorway services...

Sponge Bob

Eh NO MYOB

They are required to provide 24 hour petrol but only 16 hours of hot food.

This being Ireland it probably means that McDonalds Wimpy and Supermac will dominate ,

The NRA wants "full breakfasts including breakfast rolls" to be available and has made it a "mandatory" requirement that the breakfast roll is served in all their service areas

No mention of paninis and frappacinos lads , soz :cool:

BluntGuy

Well, I just hope the MSAs will be of a high standard...

Knowing us though, we'll just copy England's model and undoubtedly end up with crap...

G_R

BluntGuy wrote: »

Well, I just hope the MSAs will be of a high standard...

Knowing us though, we'll just copy England's model and undoubtedly end up with crap...

ireland is a small country...there wont be many journeys longer than 5, mayb 6 hours long....do we really need anything more than somewhere you can get petrol, a meal and a take-a-way coffee???

and mayb a carpark where someone can get an hours kip if they need it...

BluntGuy

dannym08 wrote: »

ireland is a small country...there wont be many journeys longer than 5, mayb 6 hours long....do we really need anything more than somewhere you can get petrol, a meal and a take-a-way coffee???

and mayb a carpark where someone can get an hours kip if they need it...

Well if you're going to stop at an MSA, you do expect a half-decent service. Many MSAs in England are sleazy and not very nice places to stop off in.

I'm in no-way suggesting that EVERY service area needs to have a motel, 25 shops and acres of parking, that's ridiculous. But they should offer a well-rounded service, a nice restraunt with healthy options, a newsagent, maybe an additional shop or two, internet access, tourist info, kids play area, an outdoor seating area, a picnic area, good car parking facilties and obviously re-fuelling facilities.

The NRA has promised to deliver many of what I've listed above, but will it?

L1011

Sponge Bob wrote: »

Eh NO MYOB

They are required to provide 24 hour petrol but only 16 hours of hot food.

I was nearly sure the food had to be 24 hours... either way, they're almost certainly going to leave stuff congealing under heat lamps and claim that thats fresh.

The only decent MSA I have ever been in in the UK was Norton Canes. Because its on a road nearly nobody uses it has to be somewhat decent to get people to come in...

Amtmann

Given how ugly many of the new interurbans are (and yes, it does come down to a cheap-ass attitude to landscaping and planting), I don't think we can hope for even remotely pleasant service areas. I believe they will be very much of their time. You know when you see an ugly concrete-clad brutalist building and you think to yourself, "uh, seventies!"? Well, I feel that these will be cheaply built with standard deli counters, serving cardboard coffee cups, all exorbitantly priced centras. In other words, the sad epitome of noughties Ireland. They won't be landscaped either; well, not nicely anyway.

BluntGuy

MYOB wrote: »

I was nearly sure the food had to be 24 hours... either way, they're almost certainly going to leave stuff congealing under heat lamps and claim that thats fresh.

The only decent MSA I have ever been in in the UK was Norton Canes. Because its on a road nearly nobody uses it has to be somewhat decent to get people to come in...

No, the requirement is 16 hours...

I think it should be 24 hours, perhaps with a limited service late at night...

BluntGuy

Furet wrote: »

Given how ugly many of the new interurbans are (and yes, it does come down to a cheap-ass attitude to landscaping and planting), I don't think we can hope for even remotely pleasant service areas. I believe they will be very much of their time. You know when you see an ugly concrete-clad brutalist building and you think to yourself, "uh, seventies!"? Well, I feel that these will be cheaply built with standard deli counters, serving cardboard coffee cups, all exorbitantly priced centras. In other words, the sad epitome of noughties Ireland. They won't be landscaped either; well, not nicely anyway.

Yes agreed.

Most likely, as I said before, the MSAs will most likely be ugly concrete blocks with the odd attractive glazing.

I looked at the proposed EIS designs and they weren't comforting... no originality is being put into the design, which is such a shame and a wasted oppurtunity...

And I agree with your point on the new MUIs. Compare the M7 to a recent section of the M8 or M9. The M7 looks quite majestic sweeping through the countryside. The M8 and M9, well, don't... (although that's partially do with the concrete barrior to be fair)...

lostexpectation

speaking of delays apparently the macken street bridge is delayed too

Amtmann

BluntGuy wrote: »

Yes agreed.

Most likely, as I said before, the MSAs will most likely be ugly concrete blocks with the odd attractive glazing.

I looked at the proposed EIS designs and they weren't comforting... no originality is being put into the design, which is such a shame and a wasted oppurtunity...

And I agree with your point on the new MUIs. Compare the M7 to a recent section of the M8 or M9. The M7 looks quite majestic sweeping through the countryside. The M8 and M9, well, don't... (although that's partially do with the concrete barrior to be fair)...

Agreed. But it's almost all to do with no planting on the verges and letting the weeds and brown stringy grass grow wild. Then there're all the roundabouts at the junctions. Take junction 10 on the M8. There you will come across an enormous roundabout with nothing but grass. Nothing. Rather than plant a few nice birch or cherry trees, or maybe a few beech -- none of which require maintenance -- they just sprinkled a few grass seeds on it and now mow it once every two months. They're so lazy they don't even remove the clippings from it when they do cut it, instead leaving it all to rot. I mean, what of civic pride? The people of Cahir should put a sculpture on it, perhaps an onamental dolmen or a bed of flowers or (shock!) maybe even a little of everything. But no, nothing. Then we have the Cashel Bypass - a revolting piece of roadside, bearing in mind that this is the way by which almost all future visitors to the Rock of Cashel and Holy Cross Abbey will come. The local authorities need to get this into their gombeen heads and maintain the stretch.

The service areas could be, and should be, made quite distinctive. Remember the red apple stall on the old N8 to Dublin? It became a national landmark through the 80s and 90s. Obviously there's a big difference betwixt an apple stall and a service area, but the one close to Cashel should ooze Golden Vale charm. It should be unique, not generic. Other areas should be similarly themed. But gone are the days of pride in appearance: all the "business parks", soulless housing estates and weedy roads are evidence enough of this.

*End of rant*

L1011

Right now, I'd take 60s brutalist concerete box MSAs rather than have to cope with the problems of finding 24 hour fuel off-network seeing as my car only has a 35 litre tank and a fairly hefty thirst...

Actually, does anyone know why the full restuarant at Hamills pseudo-MSA on the Mullingar Bypass closed down (and got knocked, at that). All thats left is two middling sized Esso's which become pay-at-window at about 10pm.

BluntGuy

Furet wrote: »

Agreed. But it's almost all to do with no planting on the verges and letting the weeds and brown stringy grass grow wild. Then there're all the roundabouts at the junctions. Take junction 10 on the M8. There you will come across an enormous roundabout with nothing but grass. Nothing. Rather than plant a few nice birch or cherry trees, or maybe a few beech -- none of which require maintenance -- they just sprinkled a few grass seeds on it and now mow it once every two months. They're so lazy they don't even remove the clippings from it when they do cut it, instead leaving it all to rot. I mean, what of civic pride? The people of Cahir should put a sculpture on it, perhaps an onamental dolmen or a bed of flowers or (shock!) maybe even a little of everything. But no, nothing. Then we have the Cashel Bypass - a revolting piece of roadside, bearing in mind that this is the way by which almost all future visitors to the Rock of Cashel and Holy Cross Abbey will come. The local authorities need to get this into their gombeen heads and maintain the stretch.

The service areas could be, and should be, made quite distinctive. Remember the red apple stall on the old N8 to Dublin? It became a national landmark through the 80s and 90s. Obviously there's a big difference betwixt an apple stall and a service area, but the one close to Cashel should ooze Golden Vale charm. It should be unique, not generic. Other areas should be similarly themed. But gone are the days of pride in appearance: all the "business parks", soulless housing estates and weedy roads are evidence enough of this.

*End of rant*

Innovation is well and truly gone.

Like I said it's a shame, but the EIS designs have the MSAs as generic and bland as you could possibly be. Bar the slightly curved roof and odd bit of glazing, these MSAs will not be attractive or unique in any way.

The Cahir, Carrigine and Cashel junctions all look uniformly awful, and the Urlingford one isn't giving me much hope for the Cullahill-Cashel scheme...

And the M9 is just as horrible... point out one attractive feature of the Carlow bypass and I'll give you a million quid right now...

BluntGuy

Dublin-Cork - 257km - NO SERVICES
Dublin-Belfast - 155 km - NO SERVICES
Dublin-Limerick - 200 km - NO SERVICES
Dublin-Waterford- 149 km - NO SERVICES
Dublin-Galway - ??? - not sure actually - but still - NO SERVICES

I hope the NRA are hearing this, because come 2010, if those MSAs aren't ready, it's going to be a pretty bad situation...

Amtmann

BluntGuy wrote: »

Innovation is well and truly gone.

Like I said it's a shame, but the EIS designs have the MSAs as generic and bland as you could possibly be. Bar the slightly curved roof and odd bit of glazing, these MSAs will not be attractive or unique in any way.

The Cahir, Carrigine and Cashel junctions all look uniformly awful, and the Urlingford one isn't giving me much hope for the Cullahill-Cashel scheme...

And the M9 is just as horrible... point out one attractive feature of the Carlow bypass and I'll give you a million quid right now...

It really is a bugbear of mine at present, in relation to transport at any rate. There are such opportunities there to make these routes attractive and environmentally friendly, rather than be a useful, and therefore tolerable, eyesore. I'd definitely be interested in setting up an action group or something to address this, especially in relation to Cashel and Cahir. With a bit of community involvement a lot could be done. As for Urlingford, the ugliest town in Ireland (after Hackettstown), I am willing to write that off. There is simply no hope for any town like it, where the population tolerate such an egregious horror as that half-built 'hotel' (or whatever it is) for the best part of the last decade. I look forward to never driving through it again!

(Apologies to any Urlingforders reading this - but WTF??!!)

Amtmann

BluntGuy wrote: »

Dublin-Cork - 257km - NO SERVICES
Dublin-Belfast - 155 km - NO SERVICES
Dublin-Limerick - 200 km - NO SERVICES
Dublin-Waterford- 149 km - NO SERVICES
Dublin-Galway - ??? - not sure actually - but still - NO SERVICES

I hope the NRA are hearing this, because come 2010, if those MSAs aren't ready, it's going to be a pretty bad situation...

There isn't a ghost of a chance that any service areas will be open on the Ms 6, 7, 8 or 9 before 2011/2012.

I am actually ringing the NRA tomorrow to ask them a few questions, one of which will relate to the service areas.

BluntGuy

Furet wrote: »

There isn't a ghost of a chance that any service areas will be open on the Ms 6, 7, 8 or 9 before 2011/2012.

I am actually ringing the NRA tomorrow to ask them a few questions, one of which will relate to the service areas.

You'll be "assured" that the service areas "will be open by 2010".

Well if that's to be the case, according to them an MSA takes 12 - 18 months to build.

That means to be on the safe side, they have to begin construction of ALL 12 MSAs by June next year. Considering they've only drawn up EIS's for three of the schemes and have only just moved into the second stage of tender shortlisting, 2010 is ridiculously optomistic.

They'd have to draw up an EIS, get planning permission, put out to tender and sign contracts within 6 - 7 months... for NINE service areas. It just ain't gonna happen...

BluntGuy

Furet wrote: »

It really is a bugbear of mine at present, in relation to transport at any rate. There are such opportunities there to make these routes attractive and environmentally friendly, rather than be a useful, and therefore tolerable, eyesore. I'd definitely be interested in setting up an action group or something to address this, especially in relation to Cashel and Cahir. With a bit of community involvement a lot could be done. As for Urlingford, the ugliest town in Ireland (after Hackettstown), I am willing to write that off. There is simply no hope for any town like it, where the population tolerate such an egregious horror as that half-built 'hotel' (or whatever it is) for the best part of the last decade. I look forward to never driving through it again!

(Apologies to any Urlingforders reading this - but WTF??!!)

Well if they do decide to re-locate the Cashel MSA to Urlingford (which they should), I hope it doesn't incorporate any "local inspiration" in the design...

Amtmann

BluntGuy wrote: »

Well if they do decide to re-locate the Cashel MSA to Urlingford (which they should), I hope it doesn't incorporate any "local inspiration" in the design...

Well, I don't know about you BluntGuy, but I've done enough b**ching for one night. I'll talk to you soon no doubt!

PS - over on politics.ie there is a poster, Rockofcashel, who's involved in South Tipp politics. I might PM him soon and see if he thinks there's any appetite for putting a local stamp on any of those junctions, etc.

Amtmann

The EIS for the two M8 service areas will be published in Q1 2009 according to the NRA.

BluntGuy

Furet wrote: »

The EIS for the two M8 service areas will be published in Q1 2009 according to the NRA.

+
Giving them an amazing three to six months (depending on when they publish the EIS) to get planning permission, put out to tender, go through the shortlisting process and begin construction if they are to meet there 2010 deadline.

Sound likely? I don't think so...

The first tranche was a mistake, it shouldn't have been two for the M1 and one for the M4. It should have been one for the M1 (near Dundalk), one for the M6 (near Athlone) and one for the M7 (Near Mountrath).

The second tranche could've delivered one for the M9 (near Kilkenny), one for the M11 (Gorey), an additional one for the M7 (East of Nenagh), an additional one for the M8 (Between Mitch and Fermoy) and one for the M4 (near enough to Kinnegad).

The final tranche could've delivered the rest of them: i.e M1 (near Balbriggan), an M3 MSA (yet to be decided I think), the northern M9 one near Kilcullen (although personally I think that should be located on the M7 before the M7/M9 interchange: there is a 100 km gap between the first M7 MSA and Dublin), the additional M8 one (near Cashel, although again, I think this should be closer to Urlingford), and the last M6 one (on the M6/M18/M17 interchange - disaster waiting to happen IMO).

An additional tranche would most likely provide service areas on the M18, M20 and possibly an additional one on the M11 and M7.

Instead, the NRA have bungled and gone for an inefficient first tranche that only serves a limited part of the expanding network. A silly move, as the M7, M8, M9 and even a large part of the M6 route will be most likely left without an MSA for a good few years.

If they'd gone for my first tranche, they would've had the Dublin-Limerick, Dublin-Cork, Dublin-Galway and Dublin-Belfast routes covered adequately in the short term. Two on the M1 to Belfast, and one on the M4, relatively close to Dublin was a poor choice for the first tranche methinks - very unbalanced (there are of course pros, but they do not outweight the cons in this case).

L1011

The M7 one being so far out may be due to there being lots (countrybound) / one (citybound) petrol stations already existing on the N7, one before the M7/M9 split might have been seen as too close to the stations at Kill.

Not saying its a good reason, just seems likely enough...