Atheist why live?

Dades

I would reply in the thread but it's clear that people's responses are being ignored by the OP.

OP - reply to some of your responses, or begone.

Nodin

S_Truth wrote: »

So really there is no reason for an atheist to live. To live for a moral life is useless because the end result is the same as living a destructive life; death. (.......)is useless.

To type a long post without proper paragraphs is largely useless, because the end result is annoyingly hard to read through.

Theres considerably more to life than the end of it. I believe there's a Jewish Mitzvah that states its ones duty to try leave the world somewhat better than it had been.

Overheal

Dades wrote: »

OP - reply to some of your responses, or begone.

Such a godly command. Too godly for A&A :pac:

S_Truth

Schuhart wrote: »

I’ll give anyone the benefit of the doubt in these circumstances. In fairness, I think the thread offers plenty of material relevant to the space your talking about. But I feel there’s just a nuance not quite covered off.

Indeed, as you say it, we hold that life has no divinely ordained purpose. Nor do we hold that life was a planned occurrence, in the sense that a religion would envisage. So, while as we know scientists like Dawkins would bristle at the suggestion that evolution is random as that’s not an adequate description of the mechanism through which it operates, indeed, we can envisage a reality where there would be no species capable of any kind of conscious appreciation of the situation we exist in. So, in the sense that you mean it (assuming you believe in some religion), indeed life is a sort of accident. We’re here because we’re here because we’re here because we’re here.

So, absolutely, one possible reaction to finding you are a conscious being with some kind of independence of action is to say ‘this isn’t the reality I was expecting’ and end it right there. I wouldn’t recommend such a course of action, as it tends to limit your options quite severely.

Another possible reaction is to generally hurt and maim anyone within easy reach for entertainment. And, indeed, there’s plenty of examples of people who do just that.

Another possible reaction is to see if there is some other alternative. So, indeed, there is no reason why I should do anything other than feather my own nest at any expense to others. But I’d really rather not. And, once we think like this, in a sense the world has got smaller. There’s just you, me and all the other folk. And there’s no reward for what we do, ultimately, other than our own feeling of what makes for a good life.

So why live? Because the fact of being here is no trial. Not wanting to seem disingenuous, I do personally find a lack of clarity over what happens next. But I suspect it has to do with dealing with other people decently, as dealing with them in any other manner is ultimately self corrosive. But, indeed, there is no cosmic being (I feel) who will be bothered one way or the other whether I follow whatever I can dimly perceive to be a moral life, or whether I screw everyone over in every situation I possibly can. And no individual ethical statement that you might suggest has, imho, any objective basis whatsoever.

I have read all the post and majority if not all talk about living happy and morally. What I am trying to get across to atheist is that any lifestyle you choose to lives is useless. And the reason why its useless because you die and are buried or cremated. To say I live for the now is pointless because even the now is useless. The now is a interval of time that also leads no where because the person dies and time goes on. Your happiness is a waste of life because it is limited to your lifes duration. To live for the next generation is also useless because they will pass away as well and be in the same position as you and their happiness is useless as yours. A person's whole life has goal(s) and one is pushed by others or self to accomplish something; this accomplishment can be defined as just getting a average job and not being the best or being the best or being the worst. But these goals for everyone are useless because they are once again limited to your duration of your life. All this effort of yours leads no where because you die and the next generation dies and its not a big circle for each human being its one big dead end that might curve here and there but never circle back around. For an atheist life to circle back around would mean to be reborn.

which brings me to my next point. Each individual has a soul and this soul is what science calls the unknown or supernatural soul; doesn't matter what you call it, the point is, it exist. Scienctist have discovered something in the body that does not exist of the physical body that makes no sense to them. Since this soul is not restricted to this physical body, this means, this physical body is not the end. If you don't believe me look it up yourself and do research on this and you will find it is true. Now if there is a soul and it lives on then there is a reason to live morally, right now and be always conscious and try to reach this goal of always being conscious. To be arrogant to this knowledge of a soul is to be irrational and illogical. Now who wants to be irrational in this worlds, sure not a morally person. Furthermore scientist that atheist like to refer to also agree that a human has a soul; scientist that agree are Albert Einstein, Charles Darwin, Werner Heisenberg and the list goes on.

Furthermore, since we have a soul why not look deep inside of you and find out what it is. Once again a logical person would make the attempt. Now since this soul is not apart of our physical body and the soul drives us to do things. Does this soul control you or do you control the soul? if you were able to control this soul then one would be able to master absolute consciousness. Now the things that do not let a person be completely conscious is pride, lust, anger, and greed. Alcohol is a huge factor of this because once consumed it sends the person into a illusion, which means a person is even less in control of the body. Once the alcohol wears off the person is back in control of his body, but still limited because the person is still not absolutely conscious.

Lastly the soul controls us means is there a another source that controls the soul or is the soul the end. Also look up what a plants reaction is when bad music is played and what happens to them. Ask yourself what music is? all it is a vibration of a sound and how can a vibration of a sound affect a plant? Doesn't makes sense right, but once again its true. Stop looking through things out of a frame of referance that blocks your thinking ability and being stubborn. Nothing in this universe is an accident everything happens for a reason and some of these reason cannot be explained because of our limited ability, so one defines them as accidents. Calling them accidents is being ignorant and ilogical. stop living as blind people and wake up to the Truth. This is not about religion for all of you who cling to a defensive block, there is a man in the sky who is judging me and what kind of God would put a person in pain. This is a such idiotic response for it proves nothing. Let me repeat once again nothing in this universe is an accident. Nothing is an accident only means one thing the reasons behind the so called accidents have a source and this source is beyond us.

S_Truth

Also read up on quantum physics it'll open you up to a whole new world.

jill_valentine

It's a fabulous world, is quantum physics. Absolutely irrelevent, but lovely all the same. In so far as I can glean any sense at all from your big giant rambling textwall, I'm going to try and answer. More as an exercise as much as anything.

I'm going to die some day, and I'm not afraid of that. It just happens. Might be today, might be eighty years time. Might be under a bus, it might be at some sort of clown orgy, who knows. I don't wonder about what's going to happen to me after my death, because I know: I'll be dead. That's all. I don't find that prospect daunting, and I don't see any mystery in it. When my body and brain stop functioning, the person I am will be gone. I'm cool about that.

I don't have any spiritual void in my life, I don't have any profound yearning for a higher power, I am not an alcoholic or a rapist or a hedonist. I act "morally", because I understand what suffering is, and can't stand to see it befall somebody unnecessarily. I would not like somebody to mistreat me, or make me suffer by their own thoughtlessness, so I will not do it to somebody else.

That is why I act (roughly...) morally. Not in the hope of some magical pot o' gold at the end of the rainbow. Just because I don't want to be the reason somebody else's day was crap.There is no god of any kind, and the only force for good or evil in this world is us. It is up to us to see that this world is the best we can make it, because nobody else will. I have an obligation not to be a jerk, because jerks make the world suck for everybody.

You keep looking for some overarching reason for being, and I (and I daresay, we) just don't think in those terms. Ultimately, what I do and what I achieve doesn't matter to the bigger picture, but it matters to me and the people around me. I don't need to think I'm the chosen one, I don't need to think I'm the central character in anything and I don't think I'm "righter" or more moral or better than anybody else. Except like... Nickleback. I know I'm better than them, because they're awful.

As for what I do live for... Well, I get up in the morning, and do all that boring living stuff, because there are people and things worth loving and living for. Not some higher magical power, not some set of rules enforced on me, not some abstract concept I inherited from my parents. In this world, here and now, right here, right this second, there are people I love, and I live for them. To spend my finite time in their company, to make the world they live in more amenable, that's precious and it's worthwhile.

And if you can't see that, if you can't even recognise how somebody could think like that, then dude, there's something very important missing from your worldview.

S_Truth

jill_valentine wrote: »

It's a fabulous world, is quantum physics. Absolutely irrelevent, but lovely all the same. In so far as I can glean any sense at all from your big giant rambling textwall, I'm going to try and answer. More as an exercise as much as anything.

I'm going to die some day, and I'm not afraid of that. It just happens. Might be today, might be eighty years time. Might be under a bus, it might be at some sort of clown orgy, who knows. I don't wonder about what's going to happen to me after my death, because I know: I'll be dead. That's all. I don't find that prospect daunting, and I don't see any mystery in it. When my body and brain stop functioning, the person I am will be gone. I'm cool about that.

I don't have any spiritual void in my life, I don't have any profound yearning for a higher power, I am not an alcoholic or a rapist or a hedonist. I act "morally", because I understand what suffering is, and can't stand to see it befall somebody unnecessarily. I would not like somebody to mistreat me, or make me suffer by their own thoughtlessness, so I will not do it to somebody else.

That is why I act (roughly...) morally. Not in the hope of some magical pot o' gold at the end of the rainbow. Just because I don't want to be the reason somebody else's day was crap.There is no god of any kind, and the only force for good or evil in this world is us. It is up to us to see that this world is the best we can make it, because nobody else will. I have an obligation not to be a jerk, because jerks make the world suck for everybody.

You keep looking for some overarching reason for being, and I (and I daresay, we) just don't think in those terms. Ultimately, what I do and what I achieve doesn't matter to the bigger picture, but it matters to me and the people around me. I don't need to think I'm the chosen one, I don't need to think I'm the central character in anything and I don't think I'm "righter" or more moral or better than anybody else. Except like... Nickleback. I know I'm better than them, because they're awful.

As for what I do live for... Well, I get up in the morning, and do all that boring living stuff, because there are people and things worth loving and living for. Not some higher magical power, not some set of rules enforced on me, not some abstract concept I inherited from my parents. In this world, here and now, right here, right this second, there are people I love, and I live for them. To spend my finite time in their company, to make the world they live in more amenable, that's precious and it's worthwhile.

And if you can't see that, if you can't even recognise how somebody could think like that, then dude, there's something very important missing from your worldview.

Read your own post and see how many times you write 'I think' what you think is not always right and in this case you are wrong. What magical power do you guys keep talking about. I find this really funny for some logical person to keep refering to magical powers. What is a magical power? Really ask yourself that. Also you are avoiding the facts that I presented. There must be a reason behind why you are avoiding them. There is nothing magical about this universe stop being stubborn here. Just because you don't think in terms of overarching reason for being does not mean one does not exist. 'I think is an opinion, which holds no truth and facts behind it. Instead of saying I think, say in my opinion I believe this and 'I think' is a belief in something. Atheist don't believe in anything for they go straight to facts. why use I think then? Atheist don't make sense.

jill_valentine

S_Truth wrote: »

Read your own post and see how many times you write 'I think'

Erm... Just the once.

I don't think I'm "righter" or more moral or better than anybody else

Sort of?


You're not reading what anybody else is posting, and your own posts don't have any coherent line of thought to them whatsover. This is a waste of your time as much as it is mine.

S_Truth

jill_valentine wrote: »

Erm... Just the once.



Sort of?


You're not reading what anybody else is posting, and your own posts don't have any coherent line of thought to them whatsover. This is a waste of your time as much as it is mine.

Read it again its more than once when you write 'I think'

To say my lines are not coherent is useless as proving something by saying 'I think'; you might as well say 'I think' your lines are not coherent because that is exactly what you are saying.

axer

S_Truth wrote: »

Read it again its more than once when you write 'I think'

Nope, I read it and it is only once the poster says "I think".

S_Truth, how do you know we have a soul?

Galvasean

Why are we having a philosophical debate with someone who can't even count?

Mena

Am I the only person expecting a flurry of " :pac: :D :eek::eek: :pac: " to appear next?

AtomicHorror

S_Truth wrote: »

I have read all the post and majority if not all talk about living happy and morally. What I am trying to get across to atheist is that any lifestyle you choose to lives is useless.

And what we're trying to explain to you is that atheists think that "meaning" is defined by people and always has been. Your need to make meaning something objective, remote and absolute is little more than a fearful reaction to the weight of consequence that your actions have in this life. Morals are defined by you, meaning is defined by you. The responsibility is rather too much for most people.

AtomicHorror

S_Truth wrote: »

Also read up on quantum physics it'll open you up to a whole new world.

Some of us are familiar enough with quantum theory, so why don't you specifically direct us to the parts you consider relevant to this argument?

So what you are saying then, is the afterlife is useless.....

Seeing as it leads nowhere, why would you feel the need to be moral, once you've gotten into heaven surely there is no point in being a good person any more because there is no goal at the end of the afterlife?

AtomicHorror

S_Truth wrote: »

Read your own post and see how many times you write 'I think' what you think is not always right and in this case you are wrong.

That is one funny statement.

S_Truth wrote: »

What magical power do you guys keep talking about. I find this really funny for some logical person to keep refering to magical powers. What is a magical power? Really ask yourself that.

Magic, the supernatural; these are concepts invoked by the religious to explain the currently unexplained. They are invariably undetectable or unobservable phenomena by their definition. The "energy" you keep talking about, for example. You haven't defined it at all, so it sounds rather like supernatural nonsense.

S_Truth wrote: »

Also you are avoiding the facts that I presented.

You have not provided one single verifiable fact, just a lot of vague hand waving and accusations of closed-mindedness.

S_Truth wrote: »

Instead of saying I think, say in my opinion I believe this and 'I think' is a belief in something. Atheist don't believe in anything for they go straight to facts. why use I think then? Atheist don't make sense.

What the hell are you talking about? Don't say "I think", say "in my opinion"? Semantic arguments? This is really weak. Of course atheists think, feel, have opinion, believe (based upon evidence). All we lack is the self delusion required for faith. You might have an argument if one of us said "I have faith that..."

AtomicHorror

Mena wrote: »

Am I the only person expecting a flurry of " :pac: :D :eek::eek: :pac: " to appear next?

J C makes more logical arguments than this poor fella.

Dades

S_Truth wrote: »

What magical power do you guys keep talking about. I find this really funny for some logical person to keep refering to magical powers. What is a magical power?

This one:

S_Truth wrote: »

Each individual has a soul and this soul is what science calls the unknown or supernatural soul;

S_Truth wrote: »

If you don't believe me look it up yourself and do research on this and you will find it is true.

Actually, no. There is no scientific evidence AT ALL, therefore you are simply proposing magic. If you don't believe me, I invite you to provide some actual evidence of it seeing as it it your proposition to begin with.

S_Truth wrote: »

Furthermore scientist that atheist like to refer to also agree that a human has a soul; scientist that agree are Albert Einstein, Charles Darwin, Werner Heisenberg and the list goes on.

Respectfully, bollocks.

AtomicHorror

This guy has done zero research. The "Einstein believed in God" myth is just a joke these days.

Daemonic

This thread is starting to read like a conversation with Jehovahs Witnesses etc when they call to the door. They state a position as if engaging in a conversation, pretend to listen to what you say and then continue with their spiel without really acknowledging anything you said or having anything to meaningful say in response.

limerick_woody

I have just had the 'pleasure' of reading through all these posts - Dade's, drop the 'respectfully', and tell him to fu****f -. More coherence would be forthcoming from a creationist than the original poster - the guy is disturbed.

Zombrex

S_Truth wrote: »

What I am trying to get across to atheist is that any lifestyle you choose to lives is useless. And the reason why its useless because you die and are buried or cremated. To say I live for the now is pointless because even the now is useless.

Apparently you aren't reading the replies :rolleyes:

It is "useless" only if the goal is to live forever. If a persons sole and only goal is to continue to live after death then anything and everything they do in their life that isn't connected to continuing to live after they die, is useless.

The point you are ignoring though is that there is more to life than simply trying to live forever.

In fact most atheists believe it is impossible to live forever no matter what you do so in fact wasting time trying to live forever is the useless pointless part. Nothing you can do is going to allow you to live for ever, so what point is there trying to.

You are far better off devoting your time to other things.

S_Truth wrote: »

Each individual has a soul and this soul is what science calls the unknown or supernatural soul;

Science does no such thing. No one has ever figured out how to test or measure this "soul" that religious types claim we have, and as such the whole concept is ignored by science (science deals only with what can be tested).

Because of the complete lack of actual evidence for this "soul" we are supposed to have I find it highly unlikely we actually have one and far more likely that humans just made the concept up because it is pleasing and comforting.

S_Truth wrote: »

doesn't matter what you call it, the point is, it exist.

Most likely it doesn't. If you have figured out a way of demonstrating it does exist, beyond simple wishful thinking, I would be interested to hear.

S_Truth wrote: »

Scienctist have discovered something in the body that does not exist of the physical body that makes no sense to them.

No they haven't.

S_Truth wrote: »

Ask yourself what music is? all it is a vibration of a sound and how can a vibration of a sound affect a plant? Doesn't makes sense right, but once again its true.

What a silly thing to say. Of course vibration of sounds can effect a plant, that is what vibration is! How do you think sound travels through a wall works?

S_Truth wrote: »

Nothing in this universe is an accident everything happens for a reason and some of these reason cannot be explained because of our limited ability, so one defines them as accidents.

If you cannot explain the reason how can you say there is one

Think about that one for a minute ....

Zombrex

limerick_woody wrote: »

I have just had the 'pleasure' of reading through all these posts - Dade's, drop the 'respectfully', and tell him to fu****f -. More coherence would be forthcoming from a creationist than the original poster - the guy is disturbed.

what are you talking about, this guy is the most fun I've had no A&A in ages :pac:

I just hope he isn't a hit and run and actually sticks around ...

Zombrex

S_Truth wrote: »

Read your own post and see how many times you write 'I think' what you think is not always right and in this case you are wrong. What magical power do you guys keep talking about. I find this really funny for some logical person to keep refering to magical powers.

Well you keep talking about the "soul", which you claim science cannot explain. That sounds like "magical" to me. Perhaps you have a more rational, yet non-scientific, explanation for how you know the soul exists and what it is?

S_Truth wrote: »

Also you are avoiding the facts that I presented.

Well a lot of facts seem to be made up, such as your comment that science has discovered the soul (yet some how doesn't know what it is)

Perhaps if you present some references people might have a bit more time for your "facts"

S_Truth wrote: »

There is nothing magical about this universe

I think we can both agree with that.

S_Truth wrote: »

Just because you don't think in terms of overarching reason for being does not mean one does not exist.

Very true. And equally just because you claim there is an overarching reason for being does not mean one does exist.

Perhaps if you presented the more honest assertion that you think there is an overarching reason for everything you would get on better.

Overheal

Daemonic wrote: »

This thread is starting to read like a conversation with Jehovahs Witnesses etc when they call to the door. They state a position as if engaging in a conversation, pretend to listen to what you say and then continue with their spiel without really acknowledging anything you said or having anything to meaningful say in response.

Almost like a troll, right? Bcause nobody seems to think I'm right about that.

limerick_woody

Wicknight wrote: »

what are you talking about, this guy is the most fun I've had no A&A in ages :pac:

I just hope he isn't a hit and run and actually sticks around ...

It's true then, i am an intolerant bas***d:rolleyes:

Schuhart

S_Truth wrote: »

Your happiness is a waste of life because it is limited to your lifes duration.

But surely its meaningless to talk of a life not limited by its own duration.

What I think folk are trying to point out to you, but you may not be noticing, is that in the absence of a belief in an eternal life the focus switching to this one. I've already acknowledged that one reaction to profound dissatisfaction with a finite life could be to make it even more finite by suicide. But I'd suggest the fact we're all here means we haven't made that choice.

I'd also guess, while I'm no expert, that suicide is more often attributable to an absence of happiness in the here and now, rather than discomfort at the finite time at our disposal.

S_Truth wrote: »

Let me repeat once again nothing in this universe is an accident. Nothing is an accident only means one thing the reasons behind the so called accidents have a source and this source is beyond us.

I've a feeling the point at issue here is really what we take the word 'accident' to mean. I meant it just to acknowledge that we see no external purpose in our existence. But you seem to be invoking the common 'argument from design', ie that the complexity we see around and about could only be the product of an intellect that must therefore have some reason or intent for us.

Maybe you're right. Maybe that vague cosmic energy you refer to is breeding us because our auras make good ethereal fish bait.

Dades

Overheal wrote: »

Almost like a troll, right? Bcause nobody seems to think I'm right about that.

He/she'd only be a troll is they didn't actually believe what they were posting, and just posting for effect. I don't believe that to be the case.

And sure as wicknight suggests, it gets the juices flowing.

m@cc@

S_Truth wrote: »

My question to an atheist is: What is the end goal of an atheist who lives a good moral life?

Ignoring the obvious undertone of this question, the 'goal' of an athiest should already be achieved when they die in that they have lived a fulfilling life.

CerebralCortex

S_Truth wrote: »

I have read all the post and majority if not all talk about living happy and morally........ magic supernatural etc.

Wow long post. I'm answering in the context of Wicknight's response #83. It made me think of a book I read recently I've mentioned it before on here because I thinks its really good. It might be interesting to you take a look here it might explain better the reasons behind the way your thinking and why we don't buy into it.