Too late to do the garden????

Kashkai

We want to get the patio and garden done in one go but everyone we've had in to quote for the job says its too late to do the garden now and we should wait until next March, but they all insist that the patio should be done now. Aside from wanting to avoid having work carried out in two phases, we are reluctant to go ahead with the patio now in case they don't return to do the lawn next year. We've had too much experience with contractors not returning to complete work :mad:

So is it too late to do the garden now (circa 1/2 acre)?

secman

If my ground is anything to go by, its too late as in its far too wet. Soil is totally unworkable at the moment, it would become a quagmire with any kind of machinery on it. Best leave it till next spring, preferabley when it starts to dry out and easier to work the soil.


Secman

Kashkai

Secman

Yeah, you're probably right as our "garden" is waterlogged in places too and it would be mush if machinery came into it. We'll probably put it off till next spring. Hope the landscaper will return to do the work if he's not too put out by us deferring the patio until then as well.

Sonnenblumen

Not knowing details of proposed works but in general site and weather conditions permitting there is no reason to defer landscaping until spring. Do bear in mind from Nov-March is the bareoot season and during this period a considerable amount of planting is undertaken. Another important factor is that bare root stock is much more economical and ideal for complete major planting tree/shrub schemes.

Hard landscaping on the otherhand can be done anytime, weather permiotting of course but if a project was to be divided, I would have expected hardlandscaping to be completed ahead of soft landscaping (planting/lawns etc etc). We would always complete hard landscaping ahead of soft works and this approach has served us well from mid Jan-mid Dec year on year.

Seems like your landscaper is a bit too vunerable to weather conditions?

Kashkai

Sonnen,

We've had two guys interested in the job and both are prepared to do the hard landscaping now but want to put off the lawn until next Spring. The thing is, they both were quite keen on the patio work but appeared to be very disinterested in the lawn. They both "forgot" to include the quote for the lawn in their overall quote. As they both want to deposit the excavated material from the patio area (which will be about 100 sq metres) onto the lawn, we are worried that if they don't come back to complete the garden, we will be left looking at mounds of muck adjacent to our new patio.

As I've stated previously, we have had too much grief from contractors not coming back to complete works in the past so we are not the trusting types anymore. Perhaps we're too cynical, but once bitten etc etc.

Finally, is it usual for a landscaper not to come up with a design for the garden. I drafted a design myself to give an idea of what we wanted but I clearly explained that we were very open to other ideas, improvements etc. However, they both quoted for my own design so are we missing out on what should be part of their service, i.e. are they being lazy in not coming up with a design themselves?

Sonnenblumen

Prosperous Dave wrote: »

Sonnen,

We've had two guys interested in the job and both are prepared to do the hard landscaping now but want to put off the lawn until next Spring. The thing is, they both were quite keen on the patio work but appeared to be very disinterested in the lawn. They both "forgot" to include the quote for the lawn in their overall quote. As they both want to deposit the excavated material from the patio area (which will be about 100 sq metres) onto the lawn, we are worried that if they don't come back to complete the garden, we will be left looking at mounds of muck adjacent to our new patio.

As I've stated previously, we have had too much grief from contractors not coming back to complete works in the past so we are not the trusting types anymore. Perhaps we're too cynical, but once bitten etc etc.

Finally, is it usual for a landscaper not to come up with a design for the garden. I drafted a design myself to give an idea of what we wanted but I clearly explained that we were very open to other ideas, improvements etc. However, they both quoted for my own design so are we missing out on what should be part of their service, i.e. are they being lazy in not coming up with a design themselves?

My advice would be not proceed with such contractors. In general I would advise caution when negotiating with any individual or business claiming to be a 'landscaper' who appear to dismiss or appear reluctant to tackle the soft landscaping aspects (lawns/planting etc). Such individuals in my experience are not landscapers but probably pavers/patio layers. This is fine so long as the requirement is for a paver. However if there are also planting reqs eg then it is essentil that clients do sufficent background checks/research to establish contractors real competencies. Another classic indicator is when the contractor does not challenge any of the client's perceived design preferences or appears to be reluctant to put forward alternative design views but rigidly prepares quote base on client's 'drawing'. This should all ring alarm bells.

A professional and competent landscaper should be well able to design and implement the full project. Otherwise, the client usually ends up dealing with several sub-contractors which is potentially inefficient to implement, demanding longer run-time, and more costs to complete. Also the client could also be lumbered with taking responsibility for 'managing the project'. Doesn't sound satisfactory and certainly can be daunting should problems arise or changes are required. Better to pick a landscaping company who can clearly demonstrate design capabilities as well as core competencies in construction and planting aspects. An experienced and professional landscaping company will be very familiar with managing and fulfilling client expectations be they design, construction, project management and taking account of timings and prevailing weather conditions etc.

There would be several landscaping companies currently busy undertaking similar or larger projects. For example, we are currently completing a landscaping project with both hard and soft landscaping elements. Patio area > 300 sq m, planting a little less, and lawn work also. Considerable exacavation work was also required to develop new planted areas for large imported (from Italy) matured specimen shrubs/trees. Planting areas required > 20 tonne new topsoil. Recent poor weather spells have caused temporary disruption or delays on the 'soft' aspects but nothing that will prevent us completing project within deadlines.

Kashkai

Thanks for the detailed reply Sonnen.

You've just confirmed what I had feared, i.e. these guys will do the patio work, clear off and leave us with a sterile patio (with no planting to break up 100sq metres of paving), and a garden in complete sh1te.

One of the guys who quoted for the work did our neighbour's patio and to be fair, its a nice job. However he didn't plant anything apart from throwing a bit of grass seed down on areas that were disrupted adjacent to the paving.

I had a guy round to quote earlier in the year and he did have over a hundred photos of previous work, offered references and I used to go out with his sister (but couldn't tell the wife that ) so I know he's a decent guy. However, he had the dearest quotation of all the landscapers we had in so we never went ahead with him. On retrospection, perhaps we might have gotten what we wanted from him.

In your experience what would a (very rough) ballpark figure be for 100 sq metres of paving (we were looking at Acheson & Glover paving slabs and country cobble) with 2 rockeries/beds (about 4 metres in diametre each), 100 metres of land drainage and redoing 1/3 acre of lawn. I just want to get a rough idea of what you'd charge for these works so I can benchmark the other quotes against this.

Thanks

David

Sonnenblumen

Prosperous Dave wrote: »

Thanks for the detailed reply Sonnen.

You've just confirmed what I had feared, i.e. these guys will do the patio work, clear off and leave us with a sterile patio (with no planting to break up 100sq metres of paving), and a garden in complete sh1te.

One of the guys who quoted for the work did our neighbour's patio and to be fair, its a nice job. However he didn't plant anything apart from throwing a bit of grass seed down on areas that were disrupted adjacent to the paving.

I had a guy round to quote earlier in the year and he did have over a hundred photos of previous work, offered references and I used to go out with his sister (but couldn't tell the wife that ) so I know he's a decent guy. However, he had the dearest quotation of all the landscapers we had in so we never went ahead with him. On retrospection, perhaps we might have gotten what we wanted from him.

In your experience what would a (very rough) ballpark figure be for 100 sq metres of paving (we were looking at Acheson & Glover paving slabs and country cobble) with 2 rockeries/beds (about 4 metres in diametre each), 100 metres of land drainage and redoing 1/3 acre of lawn. I just want to get a rough idea of what you'd charge for these works so I can benchmark the other quotes against this.

Thanks

David

We do not use A&G products, rates below are for natural stone (eg sandstone paving, s-setts and s-kerbing/risers, random jointing, using 3-5 sizes) . Some price guides:

- paving € 8,000.00 - € 11,000.00 (many variables including site conditions, complexity of design, levels, cutting etc)
- rockeries x 2 OFF € 450.00 - € 600.00 (total)
- groundworks (lawn + levelling/seeding): € 1,500.00 - € 2,400.00
- ground prep/excavations/hardcoring € 900.00 - € 1,800.00
- land drains (100m? seems an awful lot??) c € 300.00 - € 500.00
- sundries/general consumables € 300.00 - € 500.00

+ waste disposal/skip hire + planting + electrics? etc. All rates excl VAT @ 13.5%

Kashkai

Thanks for taking the time to give me that guideline Sonnen.

Your rough pricing falls between the two quotes that we did receive so it is a good guideline.

The 100m of land drainage is lengthy as (a) the back garden is waterlogged after the slightest shower (possibly due to natural springs, boggy soil, and diggers traversing it and compacting the soil during the construction of the house) and needs to be drained properly or the new lawn will fail and (b) I propose following the contour of the land and draining the back garden out to the front culvert to remove as much excess water as possible.

Funny that you don't use acheson and glover products as everyone else we've had in has given us their brochure. No exaggeration to say that we must have over a dozen of them now.

You've given us food for thought which I appreciate but its back to square one for us with no suitable contractor to do our patio after trying for the past 18 months.

Sonnenblumen

Prosperous Dave wrote: »

Thanks for taking the time to give me that guideline Sonnen.

Your rough pricing falls between the two quotes that we did receive so it is a good guideline.

The 100m of land drainage is lengthy as (a) the back garden is waterlogged after the slightest shower (possibly due to natural springs, boggy soil, and diggers traversing it and compacting the soil during the construction of the house) and needs to be drained properly or the new lawn will fail and (b) I propose following the contour of the land and draining the back garden out to the front culvert to remove as much excess water as possible.

Funny that you don't use acheson and glover products as everyone else we've had in has given us their brochure. No exaggeration to say that we must have over a dozen of them now.

You've given us food for thought which I appreciate but its back to square one for us with no suitable contractor to do our patio after trying for the past 18 months.

David,

it might be that you've met with several members of A&G 'Preferred Contractors' many of whom if not all are pavers as A&G are big suppliers of pavers? The A&G product range has expanded to also include some natural stone elements eg granite setts. Your fundamental requirement is to discuss needs with a professional landscaping company, develop a design and then plan construction. I'm surprised that so much time and effort has been spent to return to square one.

We have nothing to do with paver products or simple stack type wall construction. They suit a certain level of skill and being concrete are not within our portfolio. We're exclusively natural stone be for patio/pathways/walling. Our outline pricing is some proof that natural stone based landscaping is not necessarily more expensive but if done prperly provides a vastly superior finish.

In relation to dealing with run-off etc, yes you can treat as grey water and channel off site, but might be worth some thought to developing planting schemes that can use the water which might be harvested or simply diverted with land drains etc to irrigate some aspects of the planting groups?

Natural incline scan be exploited to develop new contours or compartments within garden structureand planting. Poor drainage caused by compaction/site machienery can be recovered probably naturally within 2-3 years but in severe cases might require some remedial works.

Any more Qs probably better on pm, otherwise I might encounter problems with Mods?

SB