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POLL! Who killed the Car industry here?

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    #32
    smash
    Closed Accounts Posts: 34,809 ✭✭✭✭smash


    The dealers themselves ripping people off
    niceirishfella wrote: »
    They chose to build empires with the massive overheads - no one put a gun to their heads.:P
    Lets face it, you wouldn't buy a car of a dealer with a crap looking premises would you?


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    #33
    javaboy
    Registered Users Posts: 15,094 ✭✭✭✭javaboy


    Cool Mo D wrote: »
    There's a pretty simple reason why tax in Ireland is so high. We have no native car manufacturers, so any money spent on new cars goes abroad. This is generally bad for the countries finances, so the Government taxes the life out of new cars to discourage this from happening (and raise funds).

    Unless Ireland develops large native car manufacturers, VRT will always be extortionate. And VRT isn't illegal in any way, so we're stuck with it.

    Some car distributors in Ireland are fully Irish owned so a lot of the profits are staying here. But yeah you have a point, a lot of the profits inevitably go abroad. But the idea that Ireland could support a large native car manafacturer is preposterous imo. The biggest manafacturers here will maybe shift 30,000 new cars or less a year. So even if this new Irish car maker was instantly the biggest seller here, they would still need to export huge amounts of cars to make profits. It's an issue of economy of scale. There is simply no point setting up a large car manafacturing operation in Ireland when you can go to a low cost labour country and make far more money.
    steve06 wrote: »
    Lets face it, you wouldn't buy a car of a dealer with a crap looking premises would you?

    Good point. Some of the showrooms are way too extravagant and expensive but there are a lot of people out there (myself included) who would choose the flashier showroom because it looks more professional and subconsciously at least you expect better aftercare/service.


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    #34
    niceirishfella
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,538 ✭✭✭niceirishfella


    The dealers themselves ripping people off
    steve06 wrote: »
    Lets face it, you wouldn't buy a car of a dealer with a crap looking premises would you?


    Ehhhhh, yes - if the price was right.
    Who give a monkeys about having a nice plush premises to buy a car out of.........its not the flashy premises you're driving - its the DEAL and the CAR!


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    #35
    Biro
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,091 ✭✭✭Biro


    I don't give a monkeys cos i drive a s*itbox worth less than 1k!
    niceirishfella wrote: »
    They chose to build empires with the massive overheads - no one put a gun to their heads.:P

    They were told by headquarters to do that or loose the dealership.


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    #36
    niceirishfella
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,538 ✭✭✭niceirishfella


    The dealers themselves ripping people off
    Biro wrote: »
    They were told by headquarters to do that or loose the dealership.

    Most went over and above.


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    #37
    Boskowski
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,361 ✭✭✭Boskowski


    The banks/finance houses
    like VRT, dealer rip-off kartels and fkn stupid buyers.

    For years and years we've been buying lowspecced tincans for crazy money (VRT) 'cos we wouldnt want to be seen dead in a 05 car. And we've been doing it on borrowed money cos - hey - everybodys doing it and - hey - we're riding the big boom money waive arent we?

    So we asked to be ripped off, we didnt care.

    Now that u can hardly find a car older than 06 on Irish roads this was going to slow down eventually. Even without the so-called recession it was going to happen right?

    Same with the houses. FFS one can only have so many houses. Did people really think all this was going to last forever?


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    #38
    galwaytt
    Registered Users Posts: 12,776 ✭✭✭✭galwaytt


    The dealers themselves ripping people off
    Ice_Box wrote: »
    Distributors giving us the paddy spec cars. Take a look at the new skoda superb. Irish elegance model has fake leather. UK model has real leather and touch screen sat nav AND COSTS LESS. Why would anyone in their right mind buy from an Irish dealer?

    That's two points, not one. Paddy spec is in order to keep OMSP down, to keep VRT down. Adding leather, etc, also adds to VRT and VAT bill. You can't have it both ways.

    Which means Paddy spec is actually caused by .......the consumer, who didn't want to pay extra for them, which is caused by...........the VRT/VAT thing, again............:o

    The 'cost' argument is almost a purely taxation one - nothing to do with garages or distributors (to a point, anyway...)

    Ode To The Motorist

    “And my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, generates funds to the exchequer. You don't want to acknowledge that as truth because, deep down in places you don't talk about at the Green Party, you want me on that road, you need me on that road. We use words like freedom, enjoyment, sport and community. We use these words as the backbone of a life spent instilling those values in our families and loved ones. You use them as a punch line. I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the tax revenue and the very freedom to spend it that I provide, and then questions the manner in which I provide it. I would rather you just said "thank you" and went on your way. Otherwise I suggest you pick up a bus pass and get the ********* ********* off the road” 



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    #39
    smash
    Closed Accounts Posts: 34,809 ✭✭✭✭smash


    The dealers themselves ripping people off
    niceirishfella wrote: »
    Ehhhhh, yes - if the price was right.
    Who give a monkeys about having a nice plush premises to buy a car out of.........its not the flashy premises you're driving - its the DEAL and the CAR!
    rubbish, if a place doesn't look professional then you wouldn't buy from them because the cars probably aren't any good. If you have no interest in making your business look decent then chances are that you have no interest in selling a decent car!


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    #40
    Biro
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,091 ✭✭✭Biro


    I don't give a monkeys cos i drive a s*itbox worth less than 1k!
    steve06 wrote: »
    rubbish, if a place doesn't look professional then you wouldn't buy from them because the cars probably aren't any good. If you have no interest in making your business look decent then chances are that you have no interest in selling a decent car!

    Silly attitude in a way. We're talking about main dealers here who were forced to build fancy premises. Before some of them had tiny premises. There's a Subaru dealer in Limerick that looks like a corner hardware store. Should I conclude that the brand new Legacy inside is a piece of crap cause the place looks stingy?


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    #41
    alias no.9
    Registered Users Posts: 6,318 ✭✭✭alias no.9


    The banks/finance houses
    steve06 wrote: »
    Lets face it, you wouldn't buy a car of a dealer with a crap looking premises would you?

    Damn right I would. The mrs was looking at a 3 year old micra in one of the dealers in liffey valley with their plate glass showrooms a couple of years ago. The female sales person was really doing the hard sell, we can do it for you at X price if you buy today, sign here, don't even bother calling your other half, etc...Thankfully, she did ring me. I told her to stop what she was doing that if the car was still available tomorrow, she'd still get it for the same price and if it wasn't, there's plenty more micras out there. We did a bit of shopping around that weekend and she ended up with a different micra, same year, a colour she preferred, lower mileage, but still from a main dealer, Murphy Chambers in dundrum, albeit one without the flashy showroom. She saved €1500 on the transaction which equated to about 20% of the transaction.
    What was the difference between the two? A fancy showroom and a pushy sales person, the two almost always seem to go hand in hand. It's also ironic that a female sales person would treat a female buyer so badly


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    #42
    javaboy
    Registered Users Posts: 15,094 ✭✭✭✭javaboy


    niceirishfella wrote: »
    Ehhhhh, yes - if the price was right.
    Who give a monkeys about having a nice plush premises to buy a car out of.........its not the flashy premises you're driving - its the DEAL and the CAR!

    I'd say an awful lot of people would go with the plush premises unless the non-flashy one was significantly better on price. If a place has a fancy showroom many people will assume the staff will be better trained and due to a higher number of sales they will know the cars better and so the aftersales will be better.

    Another point is that people don't always shop around especially between main dealers. They sometimes expect the dealers will have consistent prices and so only try one. If you're only going to try one, you'll probably go to the biggest one.

    If a showroom is big and flash it's reasonable to assume that they are selling more cars and consequently they can afford to offer lower prices based on economies of scale.

    On a related note when it comes to trade-in you might expect a better trade-in value from the big dealer who is likely to be able to sell your car quicker.

    Admittedly not everybody thinks of these things but they do play a part. Car dealers are mainly interested in making money. For the most part the big flashy showrooms aren't about having a comfier place to work, they are about generating more sales and profits. They wouldn't do it if it didn't work.

    Appearance means a lot in retail.


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    #43
    Boskowski
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,361 ✭✭✭Boskowski


    The banks/finance houses
    javaboy wrote: »
    If a place has a fancy showroom many people will assume the staff will be better trained and due to a higher number of sales they will know the cars better and so the aftersales will be better.

    Funny enough the BMW dealership down here has all that and aftersales & repairs seem crap. Went there for a few services and a repair and it was pricy and badly carried out. In one case them realigning the wheels led to the destruction of brand new tyres within 3 months.

    Going to a small independent guy now who is actually enthusiastic about cars & engines and takes pride in his work and I fare much better. Mind he has 'no' showroom at all.


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    #44
    javaboy
    Registered Users Posts: 15,094 ✭✭✭✭javaboy


    Biro wrote: »
    Silly attitude in a way. We're talking about main dealers here who were forced to build fancy premises. Before some of them had tiny premises. There's a Subaru dealer in Limerick that looks like a corner hardware store. Should I conclude that the brand new Legacy inside is a piece of crap cause the place looks stingy?

    You might conclude that Subaru aren't doing too well if one of their main dealer's premises looks stingy and then wonder to yourself why they can't have a decent showroom when other car manafacturers can?

    I know the counter-argument is that Subaru aren't wasting their money on fancy showrooms while the others are and that's a good point.

    But it's naive to think that the look of the showroom doesn't enter into the equation for many prospective buyers.


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    #45
    Slig
    Registered Users Posts: 1,550 ✭✭✭Slig


    The banks/finance houses
    I think politics in general, doesnt matter whether it was the greens for the new tax regieme or the Fianna Fail for VRT. Mismanagement of public finances in the first place and the knee jerk paniced attempt to put as much money back in the kitty as quickly as possible has left us screwed in every sector!
    The blame game doesnt work, ALL our political parties are basically in the same boat, fianna fail take the credit when things go good, fianna gael blame fianna fail when they dont but refuse to step up to the mark and the greens throw in every proposals they can think of in the hope that they get something right. Its the Irish condition our lifestyles over the last 10 years was completely unsustainable and couldnt continue but its all somebody elses fault when the bubble bursts. How many people here are complaining about paying VRT and how many people have actually tried doing something about it.
    Its like that bloody safe foods add where your man gets the undercooked chicken and doesnt complain to the waitress, what it doesnt mention thoughis that when he came home he probably complained about it to anybody else that would listen.


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    #46
    javaboy
    Registered Users Posts: 15,094 ✭✭✭✭javaboy


    realcam wrote: »
    Funny enough the BMW dealership down here has all that and aftersales & repairs seem crap. Went there for a few services and a repair and it was pricy and badly carried out. In one case them realigning the wheels led to the destruction of brand new tyres within 3 months.

    Going to a small independent guy now who is actually enthusiastic about cars & engines and takes pride in his work and I fare much better. Mind he has 'no' showroom at all.

    Hey I'm not saying for a minute that good showroom implies good aftersales but I bet that showroom nets them plenty of business simply by being there while your small independent mechanic is relying on word of mouth for his business.


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    #47
    S.I.R
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,837 ✭✭✭S.I.R


    we are all to blame, but everyone makes mistakes: problem is, we made massive ones by going out and buying the car of our dreams with the SSIA fund, then getting a 20k loan for a family car.... then the resession bombshell hit and most everything collapsed.


    but yes, dealers have always had big prices, thats how they make money...

    green party messed up also, thats their job

    fianna fail... there new name... finna FAIL!...

    thats just me though....


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    #48
    galwaytt
    Registered Users Posts: 12,776 ✭✭✭✭galwaytt


    The dealers themselves ripping people off
    S.I.R wrote: »
    we are all to blame,.....we made massive ones by going out and buying the car of our dreams with the SSIA fund,............


    Oh No we didn't !! :D:D

    Ode To The Motorist

    “And my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, generates funds to the exchequer. You don't want to acknowledge that as truth because, deep down in places you don't talk about at the Green Party, you want me on that road, you need me on that road. We use words like freedom, enjoyment, sport and community. We use these words as the backbone of a life spent instilling those values in our families and loved ones. You use them as a punch line. I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the tax revenue and the very freedom to spend it that I provide, and then questions the manner in which I provide it. I would rather you just said "thank you" and went on your way. Otherwise I suggest you pick up a bus pass and get the ********* ********* off the road” 



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    #49
    S.I.R
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,837 ✭✭✭S.I.R


    galwaytt wrote: »
    Oh No we didn't !! :D:D

    still waiting for the purchase of the new twin turbo m5 engine myself to stick in this....

    [HTML]http://daihatsumidget.co.uk/images/P1010024.jpg[/HTML]

    i just pray i never have to turn the yoke !


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    #50
    WannaST
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22 ✭WannaST


    The banks/finance houses
    i'm currently looking to upgrade my car... i tried 3 different main dealers on the outskirts of cork, each surprisingly valued my car for exactly the same amount, 17.5k... at least there is consistency across the board.

    i took min 1 car for a test drive from each place, (took 3 from one of them). each time i walked in i'd pass the usual comments of how slow things were and they'd all openly tell you nothing was moving. i'd then ask to take a car for a spin.

    moments later i'd be handed the keys and sent off on a gallop around the south link and to check out the ecoustics of the JL tunnel. not once did a sales "executive" (the use of that word makes me laugh!) come with me to point out any features of the car that might help a sale.

    on return i'd be asked was i trading in, i'd say "yes", they'd then get me the price from "da book!" subtract it from the price in the window and hey presto, as far as everyone of them was concerned that was the job done. no mats, no free service, no fuzzy dice, no hubs, no tax, no tank of fuel, nothing. completely haggle free. everytime i asked whats the best offer you can make me. not a budge, nothing!

    at least they were all consistently useless.

    nothing governmental here, no vrt constraints on s/h car... just pure crap sales staff. the art of the haggle is long gone, blame the c-tiger for that one. we'll see how welcome they'll be in jan when the price of second hand '08 UK cars go through the floor and the VRT for a bmw520 works out at 3k.

    had to listen to that muppet cullen on the radio the other week professing how great a business it was, then the simi ads advertising "deals"... rubbish.

    even if there was a car manufacturer in this country you'd still probably pay VRT to 'register' the car anyway.


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    #51
    jetfiremuck
    Registered Users Posts: 3,467 ✭✭✭jetfiremuck


    A little reflection is in order.Remember during the early 90s or so the total volume of car sales was 30-50k units a year. Dealers made money, those that didnt closed. Most cars were sold from substandard garages but people still bought.The market was balanced based on the conditions at the time. Fast forward to 2003-08 Did the population explode to the levels that sales peaked during 04-06? The internet and savvy customers created the enviornment that created opportunity for Mega glasshouse forecourts. How could Tom Hogan sell the premium brand Lexus from the old Maxol offices on the Dock road Limerick for so long. The market will adjust itself if left alone just like the rural petrol garages that were everywhere. No one complains about it any more as people change habits to suit. Same with the dealers.


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    #52
    daveharnett
    Registered Users Posts: 2,567 ✭✭✭daveharnett


    VRT makes buying in ireland grossly uncompetitive.

    The internet, ryanair, HPI and the RAC have made it convenient and cheap to privately import a car in confidence.

    It's all in keeping with green policy. We will all 're-use' our current cars for a few years, and the polar bears will thank us :rolleyes:


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    #53
    PattheMetaller
    Registered Users Posts: 459 ✭✭PattheMetaller


    Good to see WannaST got a quote. Tried my regular dealer 3 times in this last month for a trade in quote: I was bluffed off.

    Might head across the border.


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    #54
    thebman
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,012 ✭✭✭✭thebman


    The dealers themselves ripping people off
    javaboy wrote: »
    You might conclude that Subaru aren't doing too well if one of their main dealer's premises looks stingy and then wonder to yourself why they can't have a decent showroom when other car manafacturers can?

    I know the counter-argument is that Subaru aren't wasting their money on fancy showrooms while the others are and that's a good point.

    But it's naive to think that the look of the showroom doesn't enter into the equation for many prospective buyers.

    There is a Subaru dealer back home that operates from a farmers shed style showroom that is behind his house down a country road.

    Yet I see Subaru's all over the place in the area because the guy got a name for being a decent guy so everyone supported him by going to him to buy their cars.

    I think Ireland is small enough that word of mouth is under estimated by businesses and sales people. I know I've been warned off the Toyota dealership in town by at least 4 people and they have a flashy showroom. Would never go near the place after hearing those reviews.
    Slig wrote: »
    I think politics in general, doesnt matter whether it was the greens for the new tax regieme or the Fianna Fail for VRT. Mismanagement of public finances in the first place and the knee jerk paniced attempt to put as much money back in the kitty as quickly as possible has left us screwed in every sector!
    The blame game doesnt work, ALL our political parties are basically in the same boat, fianna fail take the credit when things go good, fianna gael blame fianna fail when they dont but refuse to step up to the mark and the greens throw in every proposals they can think of in the hope that they get something right.

    Upi basically just said it was there fault with your points before declaring it wasn't there fault because who would have done a better job. Just because you don't think there is a good political party in the country doesn't mean it isn't their fault. If anything it does make it their fault.

    Lack of regulation (or worthless regulation) and taxing everything as much as possible isn't good government and it does mean they are at least partly to blame.
    Its the Irish condition our lifestyles over the last 10 years was completely unsustainable and couldnt continue but its all somebody elses fault when the bubble bursts. How many people here are complaining about paying VRT and how many people have actually tried doing something about it.

    Who would you complain to? The bodies that should be protecting consumers do nothing so when you complain nothing happens. As businesses know our regulator and consumer interest groups are useless they'll just tell you to fook off.


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    #55
    G Luxel
    Registered Users Posts: 1,407 ✭✭✭G Luxel


    The banks/finance houses
    nice big showrooms which are flashy and are bringing in the customers by the droves. There was a time when the only way people would come into a showroom was if you stuck a vintage car in the window next to all the new ones, dont see that happening much. Anyway the one thing I havent read here so far is the ........labour cost. Sky high for servicing at a main dealer, even if its a minor service. Also remember the time you visited a showroom and you had to hang around for a salesman, so its time to sit down and watch that flatscreen tv and have the cappucino. lets face it, these things all have to be paid for, by people like Us. Also remember how 10 years ago, salesmen would ring you every day to find out if you still wanted the new car or not. In one or two garages Ive heard about, their customer service is dire, no one phones you to know if you are still interested in the car that was in the showroom last week.
    Finally, on the topic of those flashy showrooms, have you looked around and noticed that since the day there were opened, they are rarely cleaned, in fact finding a pile of old brochures dumped behind a filing cabinet and seeing cobwebs everywhere on those 'hard to reach places' and a red carpet that looks like it was bought secondhand from glastonbury.:D


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    #56
    port
    Registered Users Posts: 144 ✭✭port


    The dealers themselves ripping people off
    The July VRT reduction was welcome but the introduction was cumbersome and was a disincentive to consumers to proceed with purchases in Jan waiting for the reduced prices in July instead, but by then a combination of uncertainity with the Irish economy,the credit squeeze and a preference for a 09 plate meant that alot of potential customers changed their mind.
    Those that were interested in purchasing found dealers reluctant to take trade-ins because forecourts were full of unsold secondhands.


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    #57
    Seth Brundle
    Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 39,844 Mod ✭✭✭✭Seth Brundle


    I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that its all the electorate's fault.
    We stand by and watch ourselves get shafted. We mumble for a bit and then move on but do nothing about it.
    Since that toerag former taoiseach brought in VRT the electorate were content in paying it every time they bought a car (whether new or used as used car prices become artificially high). What did we do bout it? We re-elect the feckers several times. Did they change VRT during that period - yes they did - they changed it upwards!

    The end result was that manufacturers and/or distributors had to provide poverty spec cars to keep them competitive against European prices. What did we do about it? We went and bought more new cars!

    Then along came the Celtic Tiger and more and more people felt the need to have the latest year displayed on their reg plate for a number of reasons (keep up with the Jones, more wealth or whatever). By and large though people were content in taking out large lonas on a depreciating asset because they thought they were flush!

    Now that we have a bit of realism hitting the economy people are learning how to use their cop on. Many businesses are suffering, not least car dealers.


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    #58
    javaboy
    Registered Users Posts: 15,094 ✭✭✭✭javaboy


    kbannon wrote: »
    I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that its all the electorate's fault.

    Agree completely. So many people complain about VRT but nobody has ever made a real effort to make it an election issue.


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    #59
    thebman
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,012 ✭✭✭✭thebman


    The dealers themselves ripping people off
    kbannon wrote: »
    I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that its all the electorate's fault.
    We stand by and watch ourselves get shafted. We mumble for a bit and then move on but do nothing about it.
    Since that toerag former taoiseach brought in VRT the electorate were content in paying it every time they bought a car (whether new or used as used car prices become artificially high). What did we do bout it? We re-elect the feckers several times. Did they change VRT during that period - yes they did - they changed it upwards!

    The end result was that manufacturers and/or distributors had to provide poverty spec cars to keep them competitive against European prices. What did we do about it? We went and bought more new cars!

    Then along came the Celtic Tiger and more and more people felt the need to have the latest year displayed on their reg plate for a number of reasons (keep up with the Jones, more wealth or whatever). By and large though people were content in taking out large lonas on a depreciating asset because they thought they were flush!

    Now that we have a bit of realism hitting the economy people are learning how to use their cop on. Many businesses are suffering, not least car dealers.

    I don't think most people buy new cars every year. I think the problem here is people inevitably only care about VRT when they are purchasing a car which is once every few years depending on the person.

    The problem then is it isn't a political issue for them come election time. Its the dealers fault in that case as it is their problem all the time and they should be lobbying the government for change. They should also be lobbying the voters to ask their politician about VRT change. I've never seen much coverage of VRT in elections and can only assume that this has never occurred or the campaign was so poor, I never heard about it.

    Personally I don't care about VRT because I just want a car to get from A-B. I don't need A/C etc... I'd rather the government had the money for roads etc... than Toyota or a dealer since removing VRT would just cause dealers to maintain prices and make more profit. A lot of people think that too which is another thing that is associated in general with Irish businesses. Anyone ever think that this is the reason people don't have much of a problem with VRT?


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    #60
    pburns
    Registered Users Posts: 2,423 ✭✭✭pburns


    I don't give a monkeys cos i drive a s*itbox worth less than 1k!
    brim4brim wrote: »
    Personally I don't care about VRT because I just want a car to get from A-B. I don't need A/C etc... I'd rather the government had the money for roads etc... than Toyota or a dealer since removing VRT would just cause dealers to maintain prices and make more profit. A lot of people think that too which is another thing that is associated in general with Irish businesses. Anyone ever think that this is the reason people don't have much of a problem with VRT?

    Good point.

    All this whinging and hand-wringing about VRT pisses me off. It's a complaint usually made by superficial people who think their inability to afford the car of their dreams is some sort of national crisis. And the success of car dealerships over the last year is just a knock-on from the easy-credit and property boom we all got caught up in. I mean give me a break - the economy is on it's knees with horrendous cuts being signposted over the next few years certain to hit the weakest in society and hoopleheads on here are STILL banging on about VRT:rolleyes:?

    At the end of the day we do not have a car industry, we have few if any knock-on, supply industries so I think it's only right that the government collect a fair whack of revenue. Whether or nor you agree with what they do with this money is a different matter entirely but the principle of taking a slice of this huge stream of cash which is bound for Germany, Japan or wherever seems fair enough to me (as long as you remove the myopic 'car enthusiast' glasses).

    I bought a new car this year and paid my share of VRT. I didn't buy a heavily depreciating asset until I was at a point where I could easily afford it so I have little sympathy for idiots who spent money they didn't have.


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