Wrestling these days

AlphaMale 3OO

Recently I bought both Ric Flair DVD's and as it was before my time of watching wrestling I was struck by a few things I already knew but had never really appreciated. Those were the days when wrestling really was wrestling. I really enjoyed the realistic approach the NWA product brought to market. Serious promos from the likes of Harley Race and Dusty Rhodes really hit home and as the quality of the in-ring work was so good it was an enjoyable combination which made you feel you were watching a real sporting event. The feuds were over serious things like the Horsemen doing Dusty's ankle in rather than idiotic disputes over illegitimate sons etc.

The reason I bought these DVD's is because I am sick to death of the constantly evolving WWE approach. It's getting more child like by the week what with the new PG rating and I'm increasingly feeling like a child for watching it. Long term fans are being alienated and Vince is more than happy to sacrifice these people in the name of money. JR in a god dam sailor suit just took the biscuit for me and I just dont know if I can set the Sky Box to record for another week.

Kizarney is the latest catastrophe. How is this in any way acceptable to men like Flair and Rhodes and the Horsemen who made the wrestling business what it is today? I accept that wrestling now has to be Rock and Roll to stay with the times but what we are now getting is a process of devolution back to the cartoon days of the early nineties. I'm scared that this Kizarney charachter is another step on the road back to wrestlers with second jobs like plumbers or astronauts, or wrestlers stuck in a time warp like the Smoking Gunns or even Deuce and Domino. Gimmicks have gone off the scale again and what those old DVD's showed me was you can be plain old Barry Windham and still get over and still have great matches that interest people. If the UFC can do it so can WWE.

rovert

Modern WWE writers write shows to make Vince laugh not to draw money. Sorry for the short reply to your post but that is pretty much it I am afraid.

Red Sleeping Beauty

forbesii wrote: »

Recently I bought both Ric Flair DVD's and as it was before my time of watching wrestling I was struck by a few things I already knew but had never really appreciated. Those were the days when wrestling really was wrestling. I really enjoyed the realistic approach the NWA product brought to market. Serious promos from the likes of Harley Race and Dusty Rhodes really hit home and as the quality of the in-ring work was so good it was an enjoyable combination which made you feel you were watching a real sporting event. The feuds were over serious things like the Horsemen doing Dusty's ankle in rather than idiotic disputes over illegitimate sons etc.

The reason I bought these DVD's is because I am sick to death of the constantly evolving WWE approach. It's getting more child like by the week what with the new PG rating and I'm increasingly feeling like a child for watching it. Long term fans are being alienated and Vince is more than happy to sacrifice these people in the name of money. JR in a god dam sailor suit just took the biscuit for me and I just dont know if I can set the Sky Box to record for another week.

Kizarney is the latest catastrophe. How is this in any way acceptable to men like Flair and Rhodes and the Horsemen who made the wrestling business what it is today? I accept that wrestling now has to be Rock and Roll to stay with the times but what we are now getting is a process of devolution back to the cartoon days of the early nineties. I'm scared that this Kizarney charachter is another step on the road back to wrestlers with second jobs like plumbers or astronauts, or wrestlers stuck in a time warp like the Smoking Gunns or even Deuce and Domino. Gimmicks have gone off the scale again and what those old DVD's showed me was you can be plain old Barry Windham and still get over and still have great matches that interest people. If the UFC can do it so can WWE.

Wrestling's a dirty word. Vince has always thought that he's making movies.
They're called entertainers now not wrestlers too, tax reasons or no tax reasons

ShawnRaven

I tend to echo these sentiments exactly, however the best way really to get the message across to Vince is to hit him where it hurts the most, his wallet.

Don't buy the PPV's, the DVD's, the merchandise or anything. Sadly not a lot of people worldwide are willing to try that.

Bubs101

ShawnRaven wrote: »

I tend to echo these sentiments exactly, however the best way really to get the message across to Vince is to hit him where it hurts the most, his wallet.
.

Not sure that would make that much of a difference. The ratings are ****e and he doesn't care

rovert

Bubs101 wrote: »

The ratings are ****e and he doesn't care

Tell me more Bubs. :rolleyes:

rossie1977

why blame vince, we have male strippers gimmicks in roh, superheros in tna, robots in japan, big fat hurling guys in ireland

you put out of shape guys like flair, rhodes and race or sammartino (as they were then) at the top of the card in 2008 anywhere on the planet and only a very elite few will watch no matter how good the wrestling is, sad truth

AlphaMale 3OO

rossie1977 wrote: »

why blame vince, we have male strippers gimmicks in roh, superheros in tna, robots in japan, big fat hurling guys in ireland

you put out of shape guys like flair, rhodes and race or sammartino (as they were then) at the top of the card in 2008 anywhere on the planet and only a very elite few will watch no matter how good the wrestling is, sad truth

Thats very well and I do admit wrestling has had to go Rock and Roll in a way, but I think guys like Bret Hart in his heyday strike a very good balance in this regard. He's not fat and out of shape like Race but he isn't silly and unbelievable like Repo Man. Theres hundreds more, Edge, Cena, Morrison, Shelton. We dont need Kizarney. I just wish writers would put themselves in the fans shoes for one minute assess whether sh1tty gimmicks are really what they want.

AlphaMale 3OO

ShawnRaven wrote: »

I tend to echo these sentiments exactly, however the best way really to get the message across to Vince is to hit him where it hurts the most, his wallet.

Don't buy the PPV's, the DVD's, the merchandise or anything. Sadly not a lot of people worldwide are willing to try that.

I agree. I dont tend to buy merch and PPV's but as I said I do get DVD's because of the sh1te on tv. Being the only game in town kind of narrows the options which in the first place is the reason why Vince gets away with regurgutating rubbish week in week out.

rovert

forbesii wrote: »

I just wish writers would put themselves in the fans shoes for one minute assess whether sh1tty gimmicks are really what they want.

They cant as most werent Wrestling fans. Never can Head of Creative Stephanie as she was never a "punter" or was talked into buying a ticket to a Wresling show. She was born into a Wrestling company.

ShawnRaven

rovert wrote: »

They cant as most werent Wrestling fans. Never can Head of Creative Stephanie as she was never a "punter" or was talked into buying a ticket to a Wresling show. She was born into a Wrestling company.

Precicely, and therefore will never understand the concept of knowing what she would WANT to watch as a fan because she was dictated what was happening when she was growing up, and as a result, she now dictates the story. She'll probably watch old re-runs of As The World Turns and think "now, how can we translate this to wrestling for the ankle biters?".

Unfortunately for her, most of WWE's former core fan base weren't particularly into 1980's US Soap dramas, a reason why WWE was a success in the late 90s

rovert

ShawnRaven wrote: »

Precicely, and therefore will never understand the concept of knowing what she would WANT to watch as a fan because she was dictated what was happening when she was growing up, and as a result, she now dictates the story. She'll probably watch old re-runs of As The World Turns and think "now, how can we translate this to wrestling for the ankle biters?".

Unfortunately for her, most of WWE's former core fan base weren't particularly into 1980's US Soap dramas, a reason why WWE was a success in the late 90s

Apparently she has watched very little old Wrestling and she does wants to be Hollywood so you probably arent far off the mark.

ShawnRaven

rovert wrote: »

Apparently she has watched very little old Wrestling and she does wants to be Hollywood so you probably arent far off the mark.

Problem is, they tried this before with Vince Russo at the helm, that only worked for a very short while too!

AlphaMale 3OO

No doubt Stephs a complete idiot, but surely she recognises the difference between good and complete trash. Triple H was once a fan wasn't he? Does he not talk in her ear in between burying everyone on the roster? Going back to my original point, wrestling being portrayed as realistic was exactly that- more realistic. The quite talking and 'to the point' promos made a hell of a lot more impact than today's typical shouting promos (Flair aside) or HHH's ridiculous attempts at being funny ("She knows that I know that she knows that I Know etc.)

ShawnRaven

forbesii wrote: »

No doubt Stephs a complete idiot, but surely she recognises the difference between good and complete trash. Triple H was once a fan wasn't he? Does he not talk in her ear in between burying everyone on the roster?

Maybe he does, maybe he doesn't, either way Vince has to clear it first. And if he finds it amusing, he'll roll with it, regardless of what anyone else thinks.

Going back to my original point, wrestling being portrayed as realistic was exactly that- more realistic. The quite talking and 'to the point' promos made a hell of a lot more impact than today's typical shouting promos (Flair aside) or HHH's ridiculous attempts at being funny ("She knows that I know that she knows that I Know etc.)

Triple H can be funny, but in fairness, if WWE are going via a PG rating, then they're gonna cater for being funny for the ankle biters. Go back to HHH's promo on Jeff Hardy at Cyber Sunday. I found it funny at least.

I do see where you're coming from. There's nothing giving us reason to tune in to watch PPV's and promos are going further down the crapper. I could imagine the look on Cena's face when he was given the line "JBL is POOPY!", poor bastid was probably sour for the whole day knowing the direction it was going. But that's all down to the crap they have to work with to keep at PG for the TV networks.

And what the boss says, goes unfortunately.

Red Sleeping Beauty

ShawnRaven wrote: »

I tend to echo these sentiments exactly, however the best way really to get the message across to Vince is to hit him where it hurts the most, his wallet.

Don't buy the PPV's, the DVD's, the merchandise or anything. Sadly not a lot of people worldwide are willing to try that.

It's hard not to get them dvds. The temptation is too great. Vince owns so much of American's wrestling history in his vaults, the only way to see the good stuff that we all loved is to buy his dvds. The prices are scandalous though and I'm not sure what the story with getting them through alternative channels is because IIRC WWE dvds have CP on them and not everyone can master dvdshrink. Still though, at least gamestop have a few cheap ones every so often. Remember how expensive the tapes used to be in the 90's ?

ShawnRaven

alan dunne 27 wrote: »

It's hard not to get them dvds. The temptation is too great. Vince owns so much of American's wrestling history in his vaults, the only way to see the good stuff that we all loved is to buy his dvds.

Well that's just it, damned if you do and damned if you don't.
I buy the DVDs, however rather and piss, moan and complain about WWE programming every week, i stopped watching it.

Life has been so much easier since.

Red Sleeping Beauty

ShawnRaven wrote: »

Well that's just it, damned if you do and damned if you don't.
I buy the DVDs, however rather and piss, moan and complain about WWE programming every week, i stopped watching it.

Life has been so much easier since.

You mentioned that you were an avid collector of PPVs and the such . When did you stop recording ? Or do you still "acquire" ppvs through alternative channels ?

I started to stop watching back in 2003 and by 2005 I had completely fallen out of the loop. Even after a long break there's nothing really that's enticing me back to watching it. I never liked Edge though but I'd watch him now.

AlphaMale 3OO

ShawnRaven wrote: »

I do see where you're coming from. There's nothing giving us reason to tune in to watch PPV's and promos are going further down the crapper. I could imagine the look on Cena's face when he was given the line "JBL is POOPY!",
And what the boss says, goes unfortunately.

This is why I often feel sorry for Cena. He'll get booed by the hardcore fans because he has to reproduce lines fed to him.

gimmick

To be honest I do not think I have been able to sit through an entire Raw, Smackdown or ECW in years. And Wrestlemania aside, I do not think I have watched a full WWE PPV in years either?

Like others have mentioned, the only reason I have any interest anymore is from looking at older WWE stuff and various indies. I just don't see the point in watching the prgramming anymore. It does not entertain me in the least for longer that 5 minutes at a time.

Kind of like watching The Simpsons. I still say I am a fan, but that is purely down to series 3-11. Anything after that is almost entirely rubbish.

ShawnRaven

alan dunne 27 wrote: »

You mentioned that you were an avid collector of PPVs and the such . When did you stop recording ? Or do you still "acquire" ppvs through alternative channels ?

I can't remember the last time i paid for a live PPV. I do collect the DVDs, i usually wait for the prices to drop on em before nabbing unless it's one I missed live. PPV is the only way I keep up with the current product. I haven't watched RAW, SD or ECW in months.

I started to stop watching back in 2003 and by 2005 I had completely fallen out of the loop. Even after a long break there's nothing really that's enticing me back to watching it. I never liked Edge though but I'd watch him now.

Edge was a boring tool before he got injured in 2003, but since his comeback, his slow build towards heel was awesome. He was one of the reasons i watched until a few months ago when that stupid ending to that Undertaker match took place. Love to know which bonehead in Creative thought that one up!

AlphaMale 3OO

ShawnRaven wrote: »

Edge was a boring tool before he got injured in 2003, but since his comeback, his slow build towards heel was awesome. He was one of the reasons i watched until a few months ago when that stupid ending to that Undertaker match took place. Love to know which bonehead in Creative thought that one up!

As a taker fan when I first saw that I though it was pretty cool but then I realised that this is the exact thing I'm against. It was just pure stupidity. How the hell do they explain how Edge returned from Hell? Are they actually going to have him describe what it was like there or just completely ignore what happened? Either way they're fcuked.

Edge on a hiatus in Hell. Thats almost as bad as May Young's hand storyline.

ShawnRaven

forbesii wrote: »

As a taker fan when I first saw that I though it was pretty cool but then I realised that this is the exact thing I'm against. It was just pure stupidity. How the hell do they explain how Edge returned from Hell? Are they actually going to have him describe what it was like there or just completely ignore what happened? Either way they're fcuked.

Edge on a hiatus in Hell. Thats almost as bad as May Young's hand storyline.

And god knows we've Clashed on views with Taker several times in the past. And here's one of my reasons why my views still stand. He could have gone to creative and said "this ending is utter bullsh*t and is terrible for business". Edge must had taken one look at that finish and said "I'd better get a long term run out of this further down the track" because it just wasn't needed.

Taker getting the win even then wasn't needed, especially since WWE are dragging out the stories. It was a draw and people would have paid to watch it. Even if they had Edge have a few wins, people would still have tuned in to see Edge get his in the end, then have Undertaker get the win.

But thats too logical for the residents of McMahonland...

rovert

ShawnRaven wrote: »

Edge was a boring tool before he got injured in 2003, but since his comeback, his slow build towards heel was awesome. He was one of the reasons i watched until a few months ago when that stupid ending to that Undertaker match took place. Love to know which bonehead in Creative thought that one up!

I disagree Edge was awesome before that.

ShawnRaven

rovert wrote: »

I disagree Edge was awesome before that.

His singles run from 01-03 never did a hell of a lot for me. He was good without being great. Although i do find it amusing that when he won King Of The Ring, that he said he wouldn't "billygunn" his win, and pretty much did as it took three years before he'd actually mean anything on a grand stage.

rovert

ShawnRaven wrote: »

His singles run from 01-03 never did a hell of a lot for me. He was good without being great. Although i do find it amusing that when he won King Of The Ring, that he said he wouldn't "billygunn" his win, and pretty much did as it took three years before he'd actually mean anything on a grand stage.

He had a great 2002 with Angle, Eddy and Hogan.

ShawnRaven

rovert wrote: »

He had a great 2002 with Angle, Eddy and Hogan.

I won't dispute that, all i'm saying is that most people who won KOTR before him managed to use it as a launchpad better than Edge did. And as good as 2002 was for him, the first half of that year was easily forgettable, especially the stale program with Booker T fighting over Shampoo! And the Hogan stuff was forgettable as his tag stuff with Rey for the WWE Tag Team Championship tournament blew it out of the water.

rovert

ShawnRaven wrote: »

I won't dispute that, all i'm saying is that most people who won KOTR before him managed to use it as a launchpad better than Edge did. And as good as 2002 was for him, the first half of that year was easily forgettable, especially the stale program with Booker T fighting over Shampoo! And the Hogan stuff was forgettable as his tag stuff with Rey for the WWE Tag Team Championship tournament blew it out of the water.

First fours months actually.

The association with Hogan elevated him. While he proved he could handle major programs with Angle and Eddie. Edge was well on his way to headlining in 2002 if the injury didnt happen.

ShawnRaven

rovert wrote: »

Edge was well on his way to headlining in 2002 if the injury didnt happen.

Clearly not seeing as he got injured the week before No Way Out in 2003...

rovert

ShawnRaven wrote: »

Clearly not seeing as he got injured the week before No Way Out in 2003...

I meant 2003 just before Wrestlemania XIX the time period when everyone got the same injury.

ShawnRaven

Lol yeah, Benoit came back after f*cking up his neck, and then everyone else drops like flies with similar injuries. Edge, Angle, Lesnar to name a few.

rovert

ShawnRaven wrote: »

Lol yeah, Benoit came back after f*cking up his neck, and then everyone else drops like flies with similar injuries. Edge, Angle, Lesnar to name a few.

As soon as Rhyno returns after his injury, Edge goes down with the same thing.

ShawnRaven

I'd say Lloyd Youngblood made a mint between 2001-2003! Didn't Lita injure her her neck on the set of Dark Angel around that time frame too?

AlphaMale 3OO

ShawnRaven wrote: »

And god knows we've Clashed on views with Taker several times in the past. And here's one of my reasons why my views still stand. He could have gone to creative and said "this ending is utter bullsh*t and is terrible for business". Edge must had taken one look at that finish and said "I'd better get a long term run out of this further down the track" because it just wasn't needed.

Taker getting the win even then wasn't needed, especially since WWE are dragging out the stories. It was a draw and people would have paid to watch it. Even if they had Edge have a few wins, people would still have tuned in to see Edge get his in the end, then have Undertaker get the win.

But thats too logical for the residents of McMahonland...

The WWE feud format has become tired. You know the face will usually win out the feud. You know any wins the heel scores will be dirty. You know how long the feud is likely to last. There is nothing left to the imagination anymore. You know how absolutely everything is going to turn out. It is so predictable.

rovert

forbesii wrote: »

The WWE feud format has become tired. You know the face will usually win out the feud. You know any wins the heel scores will be dirty. You know how long the feud is likely to last. There is nothing left to the imagination anymore. You know how absolutely everything is going to turn out. It is so predictable.

The format isnt just WWE's in fairness. Wretling is traditionally a morality play good vs evil, with good evetual coming out the victor.

I didnt see you predict Y2J's two title wins the year.

Id hardly called WWE predictable especially the Raw brand as they change direction weekly.

ShawnRaven

forbesii wrote: »

The WWE feud format has become tired. You know the face will usually win out the feud. You know any wins the heel scores will be dirty. You know how long the feud is likely to last. There is nothing left to the imagination anymore. You know how absolutely everything is going to turn out. It is so predictable.

Hasn't that been the case for the last 20 years essentially?

AlphaMale 3OO

rovert wrote: »

I didnt see you predict Y2J's two title wins the year.

I've barely been posting so you wouldn't know!:)

And by two title wins I'm presuming your not including his IC title reign and you've just revealed the result of these weeks cage match? Maybe not.:)

AlphaMale 3OO

ShawnRaven wrote: »

Hasn't that been the case for the last 20 years essentially?

Yes I suppose so. Maybe I'm just getting cynical, I just wasn't able to predict things as much in previous years. Wasn't unpredictability the hallmark of the Attitude Era?

rovert

forbesii wrote: »

I've barely been posting so you wouldn't know!:)

Proves my point then.

Machismo Fan

forbesii wrote: »

It is so predictable.

Its anything but, they seem to concentrate more on unpredictability these days than entertainment.

AlphaMale 3OO

rovert wrote: »

Proves my point then.

How?

rovert

forbesii wrote: »

How?

As you didn’t predict it. If it was as predictable as you say most likely you would have posted here or elsewhere about them or topping the table in a PPV prediction game somewhere. If WWE is so predictable, predict the main events of Survivor Series, Armageddon and the Royal Rumble?

gimmick

rovert wrote: »

As you didn’t predict it. If it was as predictable as you say most likely you would have posted here or elsewhere about them or topping the table in a PPV prediction game somewhere. If WWE is so predictable, predict the main events of Survivor Series, Armageddon and the Royal Rumble?

How do you know he didn't predict it? Some people don't post every thought they ever had.

rovert

gimmick wrote: »

How do you know he didn't predict it?

Where exactly did I say that he didnt predict it exactly?

gimmick wrote: »

Some people don't post every thought they ever had.

Did I say they or he does?

gimmick

rovert wrote: »

As you didn’t predict it.

Where exactly did I say that he didnt predict it exactly?

rovert

gimmick wrote: »

You point was to do with him not predicting it all.

Mine was to with him not communicating it here is my FULL post from which you are quoting out of context:

As you didn’t predict it. If it was as predictable as you say most likely you would have posted here or elsewhere about them or topping the table in a PPV prediction game somewhere. If WWE is so predictable, predict the main events of Survivor Series, Armageddon and the Royal Rumble?

It relates to the internet, not his inner most thoughts.

gimmick

You said he did not predict it, if he did he would have posted it. How do you know that?

rovert

gimmick wrote: »

You said he did not predict it, if he did he would have posted it. How do you know that?

That isnt what I said this isnt a very big thread and the post you are talking about was only made recently. Quote what I actually said and in context please. The come back to me.

If WWE is so predictable I want tangible evidence from forbesii that he has been able to correctly predict events on a consistant basis. Got it?

gimmick

Who cares when it was posted. Fact is, you said he did not predict it. because if he did, he would have posted it here. Do you type every thought you have ever had?

Do you have proof of that? I honestly could not give a monkeys whether he did or not.

So, no, it don't "got it".

rovert

gimmick wrote: »

Who cares when it was posted. Fact is, you said he did not predict it. because if he did, he would have posted it here. Do you type every thought you have ever had?

Do you have proof of that? I honestly could not give a monkeys whether he did or not.

So, no, it don't "got it".

So you wont actually reply to what I actually said then?

gimmick

I would only be repeating myself at this stage. Don't post stuff unless you can prove it.

EDIT: This is boring. I apologise for going off topic. I will however make sure that I post everything i ever predict on an interweb so I can back it all up later on.