Send in the Clowns - BAC 10K Challenge

Pisco Sour

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

True, but when you say that something has no credibility, it's not really expressing your opinion, it's on the more absolute end of the scale. I agree with you though, it's very hard to predict performances across shorter distances, so if you can't get it right, you probably shouldn't try.

I would typically have used MacMillan as a starting point and tweaked my target as I go along, but at times my target has also come from discussion on these boards, e.g. sub 80 minute half marathon. Once you have the target, you train accordingly and if you train right you hit that time and hence the self-fulfilling nature of arbitrary targets. It doesn't mean you slow down, in the last three miles of a marathon if you're ahead of your goal, but at the same time, when all your training pmp mileage is based on a specific pace, you will be better served by sticking pretty close to it, rather than going faster or slower.

So self-fulfilling? Probably, but only because Macmillan (or IAAF, or a buddy, or a boards discussion) provides the target that you train for.

Yeh some good points there. With the sprints you tend to go balls out (or in the case of 400m, almost balls out for half, and then all out for the 2nd half), so the time you can do is the time you can do. But for distance events, with a huge element of pacing involved, people get what they train for. If somebody decides to train for sub 19, then that is all they will run, even if they are capable of better.

Krusty_Clown

Today: 13.5 Mile 'long' run

While discussing hills and my opinion that there are in fact no hills in Roscommon), the father in law pointed out a local raised bluff in a place called Skrine (ok, he called it a hill, but I'm stubborn) so I had to go visit it on my final medium long run. The roads were deserted on the way out (Easter Parade (picture a tractor traffic jam)) so I had the roads to myself. Not a bad running hill (I find rolling hills great for improvements) but would have nothing on the pain of my nearby Quarry Road. Picked up the pace on the way back down to give the quads a bit of a thrashing in preparation for the fabled Boston donwhills (famous for crippling many a runner). Just the waiting game now.

Summary: 13.5 miles in 1:34, @7:01/mile, HR=~135

RayCun

04072511 wrote: »

EDIT: Just checked McMillan. He suggests a 20.00 second 200m runner can run 400m in a staggering 41.8 seconds :eek: Credibility thrown well and truly out the window.

a 20 second 200m is way out at one end of the bell curve, so naturally any simple formula (which we can see is "200 meter time x 2.09 = 400 meter time") is going to have trouble there. The formula "half marathon time x 2 + 10% = marathon time" is a good guide for most people estimating a marathon time but it doesn't work for Tadese :eek:

The larger problem though is that you expect the impossible here. Of course McMillan isn't going to be precise. Nobody except you expects it to be. It's a useful tool for narrowing down your goal time, and that's all. The only way to know how fast you can run a distance is to run the distance. Anything else is just messing around.

menoscemo

04072511 wrote: »

A 3:07 is considerably better than a 19:12.

This is just self fulfilling prophecy IMHO.

EDIT: Just checked McMillan. He suggests a 20.00 second 200m runner can run 400m in a staggering 41.8 seconds :eek: Credibility thrown well and truly out the window.

In your eyes, as a sprinter maybe. But if you trained for the long distances properly then you'd realise it wasn't considerably better.

I agree Mcmillan makes a balls of the shorter distances, just as IAAF makes aballs of the loner ones
So let's agree that Iaaf is best for track and field and Mcmillan for 5k+ road races.

Krusty, sorry for the hijack

RayCun

04072511 wrote: »

If somebody decides to train for sub 19, then that is all they will run, even if they are capable of better.

Not all races over 400m are the same. That's complete nonsense when it comes to a 5k. First because if people are feeling good after 3k they push on instead of holding back, and second because, even if you did hold back and only run 18.59, you could do another 5k two weeks later and go for 18.29.

It's more true of the marathon, but that's why people spend so long thinking about goal paces, discussing target times here, and using whatever tools (including but not limited to McMillan) they can find to decide on their goal.

Krusty_Clown

menoscemo wrote: »

Krusty, sorry for the hijack

That's ok. I'm going to start posting my training workouts in this thread instead.

menoscemo

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

That's ok. I'm going to start posting my training workouts in this thread instead.

Peckham

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

Picked up the pace on the way back down to give the quads a bit of a thrashing in preparation for the fabled Boston donwhills (famous for crippling many a runner).

I've postponed my 13 miler until tomorrow, and I just know that I'm going to remember this on the downhills and try to replicate this tactic. If Krusty does it.....

Krusty_Clown

Last night: P&D core strength + 24 x 4 x 2 weights
Delighted to read in the bible that I should be tapering my core and weights sessions too, so after last nights session, I'll ease back this week on the remaining three sessions. Score! They've really served their purpose though, and I'd do well to continue them after the dust has settled.

Today: 6 mile recovery run
The now standard 6 mile recovery run, and despite the reduced mileage (57.3 miles last week; a few more than I should have run) legs still feeling knackered. I'll cut back the mileage this week if I need to (who am I kidding?!).

Summary: 6 miles in 47:39, @7:54/mile, HR=121

Dory Dory

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

Picked up the pace on the way back down to give the quads a bit of a thrashing in preparation for the fabled Boston donwhills (famous for crippling many a runner). Just the waiting game now.

Ha! In my madness Saturday evening of employing the elevation calculator to convert my marathon time on the Charlottesville course to various other flatter courses, including Boston, I did gasp at the net loss in elevation there in Boston. I am so excited for you!! When will you leave for the states?

Krusty_Clown

Taking my own advice, my last three months of training: January, February, March and April.

Krusty_Clown

Dory Dory wrote: »

Ha! In my madness Saturday evening of employing the elevation calculator to convert my marathon time on the Charlottesville course to various other flatter courses, including Boston, I did gasp at the net loss in elevation there in Boston. I am so excited for you!! When will you leave for the states?

We don't like to think of it as elevation loss. We prefer to think of it as return to sea-level. There are no down-hills; just quad-crushers. No tail-winds, just negative head-winds. Cool temperatures? Nope, just a marked absence of heat.

Boston is really tough, cos you got that whole school bus transfer to the start-line, and those nasty girls in Wesley, who'll do anything to interrupt your race. Then there's heartbreak Mountain at mile 21, and the Graveyard mile, where the very zombies themselves are know to make an appearance. Don't believe the press. Boston is a very tough marathon.

I'm flying to Boston on Friday 13th, on flight EI133, sitting in row 13 landing at 13:00. Wouldn't want to be superstitious!

Dory Dory

Yeah, the elevation calculator conversion told me all I need to know about Boston. ;)

Enjoy the flight!! Remember to buckle up and you might want to pack your rosary beads in your carry on.

still excited for you....

myflipflops

Looks like it's going to be pretty warm for you over there. Great tanning weather.

http://www1.whdh.com/weather/

Krusty_Clown

myflipflops wrote: »

Looks like it's going to be pretty warm for you over there. Great tanning weather.

http://www1.whdh.com/weather/

Ah yes. Brings me back to the great Clown Explosion of Chicago 2011, that resulted in a one second PB (and supposedly ended Martin Fagan's career, in one foul heat exhaustion swoop). Sure, you can only play the cards you are dealt. I just don't want to spend the next six months saying "... but it got very hot at the end".

Abhainn

According to Wunderground 10 day forecast it will be 13c on Monday with a chance of rain

ManFromAtlantis

i did a small bit of googling but am none the wiser as to whether this course is pb friendly.
in your opinion what do ya think? or how does it compare to the likes of dublin or london for example. apologies if you've discussed this before. thks.

Krusty_Clown

ManFromAtlantis wrote: »

i did a small bit of googling but am none the wiser as to whether this course is pb friendly.
in your opinion what do ya think? or how does it compare to the likes of dublin or london for example. apologies if you've discussed this before. thks.

Based on my own second-hand analysis (will have more first hand experience by this time next week!), it really depends on the weather and your training (readiness for the hills).

The course has a net downhill (442 feet/132m), but if you stretch that over the course of 26.2 miles (5 metres per mile), you wouldn't even notice it. The problem is that unlike Berlin, London and Chicago, it has hills, and it has them in all the wrong places (elevation map for the last 13 miles). The hills are not massive, but the risk is that at marathon pace they can push you over your Lactate threshold level and ruin your race. The downhills also have a reputation for causing cramps in quad muscles.

Being a point-to-point race, with a tail-wind, you could run the PB of your life, the likes of which you will never see again (far easier than the other courses). With a head-wind, it could be a long very painful slog and significantly tougher than the other races (the other races being circuitous courses you get the head and tail wind in equal measure). On a day with no wind, I would put it equal to London (though I haven't run it!), Berlin and Chicago, but easier than both Dublin and New York.

*Edit*: Here's a rough (unscientific) break-out of world records at major marathons:
London 9
Berlin 8
New York** 6
Tokyo 6
Chicago 4
Boston* 3
Rotterdam 3
*World records in Boston are of course disputed, because of the point to point nature (wind advantage) and elevation drop.
** World records disputed in NY also, because of a short-course and it is not a circuitous route.

Interesting that Chicago is so low, but is from my perspective the easiest course of them all. However, being based in early October, the marathon is often hampered by unfavourable weather. Rotterdam marathon has only been around since 1981 (so we can expect more world records there in the future).

Krusty_Clown

Today: 7 mile lunch-time run with strides
Supposed to be an aerobic 7 miles, but what the hell, training isn't going to make a damn bit of difference now, so I opted to go for an easy run with work-buddy and got some strides done too, which brought the pace closer to aerobic. Nice to visit Griffeen Valley Park, but we got massacred by hail stones, rapidly followed by bursts of sunshine. An Irish day.

Summary: 7 miles in 53mins, @7:36/mile, HR=~121

Krusty_Clown

Last night: 15 x core strength and 15 x 2 x 4 weights
Started this one late (11:30pm) but being a reduced tapered set of core exercises, I was done by midnight, and I find the tired warmed-up muscles help me to sleep easy. Even at 15 reps (instead of 25), these core strength exercises are still tough, so I'll be glad to take a break for a week or two from them.

Today: 8 Miles with 2 miles @PMP (dress rehearsal)
Not really a big deal, with 13 miles @pmp in the pocket just 10 days ago, but I had hoped these PMP miles would feel effortless, and they weren't. This was partially down to my choice of route, which though flat, resulted in an unequal amount of head-wind, that has also served as a warning for the race on Monday. HR for the PMP miles was 153, which was a little higher than I would have expected/hoped, but it is what it is. I just hope for a cool day and a favourable wind on Monday (not expecting too much, am I?!).
Summary: 8 miles in 54 mins, @6:48/mile, HR=142

menoscemo

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

Today: 8 Miles with 2 miles @PMP (dress rehearsal)
Not really a big deal, with 13 miles @pmp in the pocket just 10 days ago, but I had hoped these PMP miles would feel effortless, and they weren't. This was partially down to my choice of route, which though flat, resulted in an unequal amount of head-wind, that has also served as a warning for the race on Monday. HR for the PMP miles was 153, which was a little higher than I would have expected/hoped, but it is what it is. I just hope for a cool day and a favourable wind on Monday (not expecting too much, am I?!).
Summary: 8 miles in 54 mins, @6:48/mile, HR=142

Hey Krusty. Fro reading your log you seem to have about the same HR max as me (185) so I'm a little surprised at this. Would you expect PMP miles to produce a much lower HR? Or would you expect your HR to rise significanlty over the other 24.2 miles? I am guessing you would expect to average a lot higher than 153 over the full course of the marathon?
I ask because I averaged 159 in Blackpool and PMP training runs generally produced a low to mid 150's HR.

Krusty_Clown

menoscemo wrote: »

Hey Krusty. Fro reading your log you seem to have about the same HR max as me (185) so I'm a little surprised at this. Would you expect PMP miles to produce a much lower HR? Or would you expect your HR to rise significanlty over the other 24.2 miles? I am guessing you would expect to average a lot higher than 153 over the full course of the marathon?
I ask because I averaged 159 in Blackpool and PMP training runs generally produced a low to mid 150's HR.

A direct comparison between you and I doesn't make a lot of sense, as even with the same max HR, we might have very different figures for what effort levels (specifically HR) are most suitable for different distances, you might be higher for some distances and I might be higher for others (based, for example, on our suitability for a specific distance).

Having said that, these are not typical PMP miles, but rather an easy session that includes 2 PMP miles at a time when the body should be well rested. So I would expect my HR to be lower than a typical PMP session and well lower than marathon pace. In some recent PMP sessions, HR for early miles would have been 148-153. Later miles would be higher, and the entire PMP session would average around 155-158. So there are no alarm bells (I wont see my HR on race day until after the race) I just would have preferred if the figures had suggested the miles were easier (e.g. sub 150).

Krusty_Clown

Today: A day from hell

Get plenty of sleep.
Stay away from stressful environments.
Take time off work, if you have to.

So goes the general advice about the days leading up to your marathon goal. Never one to pay any attention to good advice, I've avoided sleeping properly for most of the week. Work has been crazy busy of late, and I find myself screaming out expletives at the top of my voice (it's healthier than rolling into a ball, rocking backwards and forwards and mumbling under my breath).

So when I woke at 6am, it wasn't unexpected (it allowed me to get my run done before work). When I rode my motorcycle at 120km/hour on the m50, and got hit by a 5 foot long sheet metal sign that came loose off a trailer, smashing parts of my bike and nearly decapitating me, I probably had it coming. When the phone number that the driver (11D21929) gave me, turned out to be not his phone number, I wasn't surprised. Then work... Oh work... Let me count the ways I love thee...

Tonight: Sports massage from the pain-bringer, then packing for Boston, then fretting about whether the kids will survive the week.

Yep, it's definitely taper time.

Summary: 6 miles in 46:29, @7:41/mile, HR=125

RayCun

:eek:
Glad you're okay

Krusty_Clown

RayCun wrote: »

:eek:
Glad you're okay

Thanks Ray. Still have adrenaline coursing through my veins. It's the closest I've ever come to not making my next run. Thankfully it just looks like around 250 quid damage to the bike. Just extremely lucky to still be going to Boston so I shouldn't be complaining.

Marthastew

I'm sure you'll be tired of people telling you to take it easy today but do try, even though you escaped with only damage to the bike you are most likely in somewhat a state of shock after this morning.

In an effort to cheer you up but in no way to trivialise a serious incident I'll remind you of the following....
Accidents on the the Thursday before a marathon are considered to be really good luck (obviously only if you live to tell the tale):):)
I'm still sporting multicoloured bruises after my fall of my bike before Conn (ok, no comparison between a motorbike/M50 and bicycle/Sandycove seafront but I'm clutching at straws here)

Glad you're ok

Krusty_Clown

Marthastew wrote: »

Accidents on the the Thursday before a marathon are considered to be really good luck

That did cheer me up. Thanks!

opus

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

So when I woke at 6am, it wasn't unexpected (it allowed me to get my run done before work). When I rode my motorcycle at 120km/hour on the m50, and got hit by a 5 foot long sheet metal sign that came loose off a trailer, smashing parts of my bike and nearly decapitating me, I probably had it coming. When the phone number that the driver (11D21929) gave me, turned out to be not his phone number, I wasn't surprised. Then work... Oh work... Let me count the ways I love thee...

Jes*s as an ex-member of the biking fraternity that made me shiver just reading it, glad to hear you're ok.

The very best of luck next week, you've the work done so now all that's left is to collect the well deserved PB

racheljev

Jeez that sounds horrendous. Glad to hear you're ok. Best of luck for Boston and I'll keep an eye out for your gymnast girlie on Sunday at the Nationals

digger2d2

What doesn't kill you..... Makes you ride harder

Best of luck in the race!