Send in the Clowns - BAC 10K Challenge

Dory Dory

shotgunmcos wrote: »

Speak for yourself... a clown in rubber?!

Depends on the clown.

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

Youtube fail. This one however? Much better.

I'm a little worried about the obsession with "the finger" with the kid.....but it's a good looking wetsuit he has on with the green insets. Keep that in mind when shopping for yours!

Krusty_Clown

Dory Dory wrote: »

Depends on the clown.



I'm a little worried about the obsession with "the finger" with the kid.....but it's a good looking wetsuit he has on with the green insets. Keep that in mind when shopping for yours!

I have a wetsuit! I just don't know how to use it.

Pisco Sour

Congrats on the PB. You'll be under 17 next time.

Just catching up on your log, and 2:25 is far too modest and 800 goal for yourself. With a 4:57 mile, I'd imagine 2:15 would be a realistic target once you figure out how to run them properly.

With regards the 400, it is hard to predict what you'll do as we don't know what your natural speed is (no stats of 100, 200 or 400 TTs for us to go on ). Your 800 time would give a better idea of 400 potential, but I'd say get out and do a 400 TT. It will give you an idea of where you are before you run a 400 race. You dont want the race to be the first time you've run 400 flat out. Would be better to get your body used to the idea of sprinting that distance, so when you race it, you'll have something to go on.

You going to run the graded meets coming up this month?

myflipflops

You should get out hard in your next 5k, really go for a big PB.

As a marathon runner, the thought process is that if you go out too hard and blow up, you are f*cked and the nature of the event means you will not get another chance for a long time. The shorter races are different. If you go out hard and blow up, you can have another shot in a weeks time plus you have learned something about your limits.

Krusty_Clown

This is slowly becoming more of a racing log and less of a training log, but the good news for anyone still checking this thread out, is that I'm nearly finished. I'm nearly done sowing my wild racing oats. The body is well and truly thrashed, and there aren't many more soft PBs to tackle.

I found myself down in Roscommon town for the latter part of the weekend. May weekend marks the return of the Carer's association 10k, a race that I signed up for a couple of years ago but didn't get to race due to injury. I vowed I'd be back, with a view to trying to make a podium finish. Generally the race has around 10 competitive runners, and the rest of the 400-500 field is made up of improving runners, followed by the occasional runners and finally the walkers. This year the organizers included chip timing for the first time, which marked a change to their 'it'll be fine' race organization strategy, but I wasn't taking any chances. I was shooting for a PB, so I drove (and measured) the course the night before, to make sure it was the appropriate length. Hats off to the organizers. Every kilometer was marked, and the distance was spot on. I was satisfied and signed up the next morning.

Lining-up just behind the start line, I was checking out the runner's physiques and running shoes, trying to get a hint of who'd be battling up the front, and spotted around five runners who looked the part. Race kicked off and I jumped in behind a leading runner into second place. Didn't last long as another runner pulled up alongside me, before closing the gap to the lead runner. Looking at my watch, I had slipped into 3k pace (5:13/mile), while the lead runners were still widening the gap, so I dropped off the unsustainable pace and let them off. This wasn't going to be my day. It would've been nice to get into the mix, but it would've also have been very foolish. My legs were still tired from Saturday's 5k, and they were running closer to my 3k pace. So I settled back to my real goal, a 35:xx 10k time.

I'd done my homework this time, and knew the km splits should be multiples of ~3:33. I hit the first one slightly fast (a result of my brief foray with the two lead runners) and looking back, a significant gap had opened up with the chasing pack. I was on my own. The first 4k was into a slight head-wind, with some small hill climbs. By the time we hit 4k, I was still on target, and the leaders were around 200m ahead. We turned into Moate Park (an area I love to run when we're down around these parts) and thankfully the close forest and light rain offered some cooling temperatures. At 7k I was struggling mentally, and was deeply regretting the idiocy of multiple races over near consecutive days. Hitting 8k, I thought I was dusted. My pace was slipping and I was struggling with the small climbs over the bridges that crested the railway lines, but eventually I neared the 9k mark and got a shout of encouragement from a Polish lad I've paced through a few marathons.

Rounding the corner, I was headed down the long straight back towards the finish line. The head lifted, the heart lifted and the running was a lot easier. With 300m to go, my daughter was waiting with cousins and a couple of aunties and uncles in tow, cheering me on and that gave me the boost I needed to pick up the pace and finish with strength. Crossed the finish line in 3rd place in 35:31. I was well-happy with the time. But as I headed back to Dublin through wet and windy weather on the motor-bike, my thoughts invariably turned to the time and a level of healthy dissatisfaction crept in. and so a new chapter begins..

The winner ran a solid 33:50, with second place just 10 seconds behind, so I was never in with a shout. Today....

Summary: 10k in 35:31, @5:42/mile, HR=169

Pisco Sour

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

This is slowly becoming more of a racing log and less of a training log, but the good news for anyone still checking this thread out, is that I'm nearly finished. I'm nearly done sowing my wild racing oats. The body is well and truly thrashed, and there aren't many more soft PBs to tackle.

Not good news at all. The racing is definetely more interesting. Good to see you try different events. Make sure to do that 400 and 800 before you put your racing slutiness to bed!

Congrats btw. Great running.

dna_leri

Some great racing this days KC, even if you are only ticking the boxes instead of giving it everything. Now that you have got some base-lines I hope you push on and notch up some PBs that will be hard to beat next time around.

Peckham

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

This is slowly becoming more of a racing log and less of a training log

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

I was checking out the runner's physiques and running shoes, trying to get a hint of who'd be battling up the front, and spotted around five runners who looked the part.

Sounds to me like it's becoming a triathlete log, focussed on the gear of those around you!

Krusty_Clown

Peckham wrote: »

Sounds to me like it's becoming a triathlete log, focussed on the gear of those around you!

Hell no! I was checking out their abs and pecks! (jolly clown).

Krusty_Clown

04072511 wrote: »

You going to run the graded meets coming up this month?

Nope. Too soon. Will definitely plan on hitting a graded meet during the summer though and give the 400 a pop (if only to give you your self-satisfied smugness that a distance runner can't run a sub 60 400. ).

I'm thinking that if there was a graded meet with the 400m before the 800m I could give them both a pop, with the emphasis on running the 400m and just ticking off the 800m. Will try and do a flat-out 400m on a track at some stage, just to get a benchmark. I presume the approach for a 400m is to go out hard, and as you hit the last 3rd give it everything you've got?

RayCun

I was talking to an ex-400m runner in my club about this a while back actually. (We were talking about pacing because he's a distance runner these days but hasn't yet figured out how to hold himself back early on)
The more common strategy is (or was) to go for even pace throughout, with gradually building effort levels - just like a road race.
But quite a few runners would just smash out the first 300m and hope that their legs would remember what to do in the last 100m - and quite often it worked too.

Krusty_Clown

RayCun wrote: »

But quite a few runners would just smash out the first 300m and hope that their legs would remember what to do in the last 100m - and quite often it worked too.

That's what I'm thinking. I was chatting to the winner after yesterday's 10k, and it took me three goes to tell him what county the Sli Culann club was from (Roscommon, Dublin, Wicklow) as my brain was still frazzled from the run. I don't think I'd have a chance to think about strategy or pacing while running a fast 400m. For me, t's probably best to think in terms of:
Run at almost blow-up speed until I hit the 3/4 mark
Run at blow-up speed for the last 1/4.

Krusty_Clown

dna_leri wrote: »

Some great racing this days KC, even if you are only ticking the boxes instead of giving it everything. Now that you have got some base-lines I hope you push on and notch up some PBs that will be hard to beat next time around.

That's exactly the plan. I've moved up another notch in terms of race times, so at the moment I'm just tweaking the running CV so I know what my targets should be for the summer. In fact, because I've run four races in the last 12 days on the back of a sub-optimal marathon, some of these PBs should be easy enough to beat just by doing some specific training and not just lashing into them in a haphazard fashion. Any training tips or plans for 400m/800m?

Bumped into a few Sligo runners at the Roscommon race, including one or two from the Curlew Warriors run. I see we still have pride of place on their website. They've announced a date for this year's race: 24th June.

Brianderunner

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

That's what I'm thinking. I was chatting to the winner after yesterday's 10k, and it took me three goes to tell him what county the Sli Culann club was from (Roscommon, Dublin, Wicklow) as my brain was still frazzled from the run. I don't think I'd have a chance to think about strategy or pacing while running a fast 400m. For me, t's probably best to think in terms of:
Run at almost blow-up speed until I hit the 3/4 mark
Run at blow-up speed for the last 1/4.

Re the 400m,

Basically you can do what you like for the first 50m, but you have to slow down a little then for the next 150m as you go into a cruise zone, which is about 90-95% of maximum effort. If you go out at 100% effort in a 400m, you will die a death. With 200m to go then your back into all out effort.

Something like 6 x 150m at 90-95% effort with walkback recovery would be a nice session to sneak in 10-14 days beforehand if you can.

I won't lie i'm intrigued as to how fast you can run over 400m and 800m, as well as 0407 is.

Krusty_Clown

Brianderunner wrote: »

Something like 6 x 150m at 90-95% effort with walkback recovery would be a nice session to sneak in 10-14 days beforehand if you can.

I won't lie i'm intrigued as to how fast you can run over 400m and 800m, as well as 0407 is.

But how do you know what 90-95% feels like? Not sure why anyone would be interested. The imminent prospect of failure? What odds would you give me of breaking 60 (over two attempts)?

I reckon you also really need to train on a track for a 400/800m track event. Based on my working hours, I really don't have access to a track. What about spikes? Would you wear spikes for a 400/800m event?

Brianderunner

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

But how do you know what 90-95% feels like? Not sure why anyone would be interested. The imminent prospect of failure? What odds would you give me of breaking 60 (over two attempts)?

I reckon you also really need to train on a track for a 400/800m track event. Based on my working hours, I really don't have access to a track. What about spikes? Would you wear spikes for a 400/800m event?

90-95% would feel almost like a relaxed form of sprinting. Somewhere between post run strides and all out sprinting if that makes sense.

Yeah distance spikes would be fine, or even your XC spikes to be honest, if you switch them for 5mm spikes.

Why would i be interested? Athletics is my sport, i'm interested in things like that, same way i'd be interested in what 0407 could run for a marathon if properly trained. Obviously the more boardsies that try T&F the better. Would be nice to get a boardsie only T&F day some day, with a beer mile to finish of course

Honestly i'd go 50/50 on you going sub 60 over 2 attempts. Far more likely if you did specific work for it of course.

Krusty_Clown

Brianderunner wrote: »

90-95% would feel almost like a relaxed form of sprinting. Somewhere between post run strides and all out sprinting if that makes sense.

I checked before, and I tend to do post-run strides at around 5 min/mile. So a little bit quicker than that I guess. Handy reference.

Brianderunner wrote: »

Yeah distance spikes would be fine, or even your XC spikes to be honest, if you switch them for 5mm spikes.

Not in training though, right? You'd still use a light racing shoe for training on the track?

Brianderunner wrote: »

Honestly i'd go 50/50 on you going sub 60 over 2 attempts. Far more likely if you did specific work for it of course.

I'm surprised. Didn't think the odds would that favorable (and by favourable I mean neutral!). Can I place a bet against myself?! I'd definitely do some sessions before approaching a track meet.

Brianderunner

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

I checked before, and I tend to do post-run strides at around 5 min/mile. So a little bit quicker than that I guess. Handy reference.

Not in training though, right? You'd still use a light racing shoe for training on the track?

Would usually use spikes for the sessions but racing flats would be fine. Spikes can be murder on your achilles if your not used to them. Make sure you do a few strides in the spikes just to know what they feel like on a track though. They definitely force you to stride that bit differently.

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

I'm surprised. Didn't think the odds would that favorable (and by favourable I mean neutral!). Can I place a bet against myself?! I'd definitely do some sessions before approaching a track meet.

Haha, i'm always up for a gamble but thats far too easy for you to win.

Pisco Sour

Brianderunner's odds are probably about right. A 70-71 closing lap in the mile indicates you have some speed in those legs. It is hard to predict how you will do based on your mile time as it is not a great indicator (800 would be a better predictor). You could be 57-58 or you could be 62-63. No real way of knowing, hence why us track guru's are interested. You've been on fire recently in races so we want to know is this the one chink in your armour with regards the Big 10, or can you complete the set . I think you will be there or there abouts, but will probably take a few efforts and a bit of specialised focus.

About doing the 800 after a 400, if you want to just jog around and get the sub 3 minutes then go for it, but I wouldn't attempt racing anything, or doing any hard sessions after a 400 race.

About running the 400, Brian has it spot on. Sprint the first 50-60, get out as hard as you can, and then settle. You are not necessarily dropping the pace here too much, but more dropping the effort while trying to maintain a quick pace. Then with 200 to go just go balls out. It's a hard race to get right which is why you'll probably require a few efforts perhaps. Eseentially you need to be running at sub 4 minute mile pace for one lap, so try get some strides in at or near this pace.

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

if only to give you your self-satisfied smugness that a distance runner can't run a sub 60 400.

Not at all. Makes no difference to me whether you can or cant run run sub 60. I'd like to see you do it and complete the set. Maybe you running a 400 will get others to try it too.

Brianderunner wrote: »

same way i'd be interested in what 0407 could run for a marathon if properly trained.

Probably be about 10-15 years before you find out the answer to that question!

Dory Dory

Usually turning 40 results in the purchase of a sporty red car, new hip clothes and hairstyle, or keeping the company of younger women......but track and field? :eek:

(I say better than 50:50 that you'll go sub 60 in two attempts. )

dna_leri

KC,

I would be confident that you could run a 58-59s 400m now with very little work. I would suggest a couple of speed development sessions to get the legs moving faster as preparation - something like this: http://runningtimes.com/Article.aspx?ArticleID=19514
If you do not have easy access to a track you could do these on grass. I would recommend using spikes for this fast stuff and when racing on the track - it will help with traction at the start and when kicking off the final bend. But if you are more comfortable in flats, which could be lighter than XC spikes, then you will be ok.

In terms of tactics for a 400, do get out hard over the first 50m - it's a different energy system than your standard aerobic & anaerobic so use it up at the start. Then try and relax down the back straight - think fast strides until about 250m. Most of us can only sprint for just over 40s so you will start to feel the fatigue now. Then you dig deep, try and come off the bend at full speed and hang on. If you have given everything you will be well under 60s but your head will be spinning and your knees wobbly - you might see your breakfast again. If not, you have not tried hard enough.

By the way, the only time I was within 20s of you on the Curlews race was during the first km. In the end it was more like 2 mins, but I am willing to let the myth stand that I came close. Are you going back to defend your title this year? Although I enjoyed that race, I won't be racing over 10K this year. When you get through this early season racing phase, I hope you decide to concentrate on the 10K. I think you will do serious damage to your PB in the right race when you mind and body is focussed and it might even set you up for another marathon cycle.

shels4ever

And don't be checking that garmin thing for pace down the back straight.

Krusty_Clown

Dory Dory wrote: »

Usually turning 40 results in the purchase of a sporty red car, new hip clothes and hairstyle, or keeping the company of younger women......but track and field? :eek:

(I say better than 50:50 that you'll go sub 60 in two attempts. )

The red sports car is in fact a red motorcycle. The new hip clothes are all made from lycra and spandex. After seeing the photos from the 5k on Saturday, the haircut was an immediate forgone conclusion. As for younger women, my OH looks a lot younger than me, so that one is ticked off too. Irish male life expectancy is 78 years, so that mid-life crisis ship sailed by last year unnoticed.

However... Yesterday I was a middle-aged man with children. Today... One of my children turned 18. We have another adult under our roof. I can't help but feel old. Glad I ran that 35 minute 10k on Monday. It makes me feel a little younger.

Krusty_Clown

dna_leri wrote: »

KC,

I would be confident that you could run a 58-59s 400m now with very little work. I would suggest a couple of speed development sessions to get the legs moving faster as preparation - something like this: http://runningtimes.com/Article.aspx?ArticleID=19514
If you do not have easy access to a track you could do these on grass. I would recommend using spikes for this fast stuff and when racing on the track - it will help with traction at the start and when kicking off the final bend. But if you are more comfortable in flats, which could be lighter than XC spikes, then you will be ok.

Thanks for the advice dna_leri. Will give it a good read and put it into practice. I have my XC spikes, so I'm sure I can pick up some 5mm spikes for them. I've done a lot of recovery runs in the shoes, so am well used to them. Not so sure about going back for the Curlew warrior 10k. I'm sure I could run the course faster, but there's little point, other than trying to defend the title!

Yep, the I reckon the plan for the summer will be to try and hit the 400/800 and then move on to 10k specific training, with a view to having another stab at the marathon distance in September/October.

Shels4Ever wrote:

And don't be checking that garmin thing for pace down the back straight.

I learned my lesson at the mile race! With the HR strap slowly sliding down my torso, and the watch completely unreadable and impossible to adjust, they were less than useless (probably even less useful in 400/800m). I presume it would help to have others with similar targets in mind to run off/race, particularly on the back straight. Well if nothing else, I'll have a new appreciation for watching shorter distance races on the telly-box.

Krusty_Clown

Filling in a few gaps:
Friday 4th: 4 mile recovery run
Sunday 6th: 4 mile recovery run
Tuesday 8th: 4 mile recovery run
Wednesday 9th: 7 mile aerobic run

Body is holding up well to the bit of thrashing it's been getting over the last couple of weeks, which may serve me well as I move on to shorter faster stuff. Unfortunately I can't make tonight's IMRA Scalp race. It's the one race in the IMRA calendar that I wanted to do more than any other (taking place in my own training back yard and probably wont be on the calendar again for a few years), but sometimes life is more important than hobbies.

Summary: 7 miles in 48 mins, @6:50/mile, HR=147

tunguska

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

Crossed the finish line in 3rd place in 35:31. I was well-happy with the time. But as I headed back to Dublin through wet and windy weather on the motor-bike, my thoughts invariably turned to the time and a level of healthy dissatisfaction crept in. and so a new chapter begins..

The winner ran a solid 33:50, with second place just 10 seconds behind, so I was never in with a shout. Today....

Summary: 10k in 35:31, @5:42/mile, HR=169

Thats actually a great run Krusty. Caught in no mans land like that, takes a lot of discipline to not drop it. Well done man

Krusty_Clown

Yesterday: 6 mile recovery run, @7:42/mile
Today: 5 mile recovery run with 5 x strides, @7:21/mile

Dory Dory

Hey KC!! When and what is your next race? And when do you think your next marathon will be?

Krusty_Clown

Dory Dory wrote: »

Hey KC!! You're going great guns these days. How's your swimming coming along?

Thanks. You're going really well too. I haven't had a chance to get into the pool in some months, but hope to start swimming again real soon.

Dory Dory

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

Thanks. I've been taking group swim lessons down at the local YMCA with Kurt Godel and BeepBeep and we've progressed from swimmies in the shallow end to jumping off the diving board into the lifeguard's arms. Lucky for us, the lifeguard is a hot chick in a bikini who is has a great catch.

Good for you boys. I'd hate to see your Garmin 910xt go to waste! Can't wait to see your stats on that one!