Send in the Clowns - BAC 10K Challenge

Krusty_Clown

Mr Slow wrote: »

Are you planning on pacing the series half G?

If they'll have me back! Have done the last couple of years and It's a nice day out. Are you planning on racing or pacing?

Mr Slow

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

If they'll have me back! Have done the last couple of years and It's a nice day out. Are you planning on racing or pacing?

Racing, managed a 1:33 last year but have been running in stasis since, I'll either be in your group or just ahead

Krusty_Clown

Today: Pyramid Scheme!
Didn't get out for my lunch run, so headed out during the Sweden-Ukraine game, incorrectly thinking that it'd be crap. A 2.5 mile warm-up brought me to the Kilbogget cinder track, complete with drink and spikes in a bag. One look at the track and I realized that the spikes (complete with 12mm spikes!) would be no good on the cinder track, so I'd have to make do with my marathon shoes (didn't think to bring racing flats). Lots of people training on the cinder surface, which was good to see. Last time I'd been down here, it was burning cars and cider circles.

The track had lane outlines, but no distance markers, but I'd come prepared and had put together a session on the watch. The Garmin isn't great at accurately measuring track distances, so I programmed the reps slightly long to make up for potential inaccuracy (it's not about the times anyway, it;s about the training). It was very hard to get traction underfoot, so the start of the reps were very slow. I messed up the first 300m, running too quick at the start then struggling to hold on, but the next one went a little better. Tough session and it's given me an appreciation for how difficult the 400m will be. Finished up with an easy 2.5 miles home.

Distances (approx): 112m, 209m, 305m, 305m, 209m, 112m
Times: 18 / 31 / 48 / 48 / 33 / 18

Summary: 6.67 miles in 66 mins.

Pisco Sour

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

Today: Pyramid Scheme!
Didn't get out for my lunch run, so headed out during the Sweden-Ukraine game, incorrectly thinking that it'd be crap. A 2.5 mile warm-up brought me to the Kilbogget cinder track, complete with drink and spikes in a bag. One look at the track and I realized that the spikes (complete with 12mm spikes!) would be no good on the cinder track, so I'd have to make do with my marathon shoes (didn't think to bring racing flats). Lots of people training on the cinder surface, which was good to see. Last time I'd been down here, it was burning cars and cider circles.

The track had lane outlines, but no distance markers, but I'd come prepared and had put together a session on the watch. The Garmin isn't great at accurately measuring track distances, so I programmed the reps slightly long to make up for potential inaccuracy (it's not about the times anyway, it;s about the training). It was very hard to get traction underfoot, so the start of the reps were very slow. I messed up the first 300m, running too quick at the start then struggling to hold on, but the next one went a little better. Tough session and it's given me an appreciation for how difficult the 400m will be. Finished up with an easy 2.5 miles home.

Distances (approx): 112m, 209m, 305m, 305m, 209m, 112m
Times: 18 / 31 / 48 / 48 / 33 / 18

Summary: 6.67 miles in 66 mins.

Good session that. More of them and you'll be in good shape for a fair tilt at the sub 60. How much time did you take between reps?

Dory Dory

"It's not about the times, it's about the training."
Trying to embrace that myself.

Pisco Sour

Dory Dory wrote: »

"It's not about the times, it's about the training."
Trying to embrace that myself.

He's right. The only time that matter is when he's in the starting blocks for the race. Training is more about the effort level and building the speed endurance which will be needed to go under 60.

Krusty_Clown

Pisco Sour wrote: »

Good session that. More of them and you'll be in good shape for a fair tilt at the sub 60. How much time did you take between reps?

I wasn't looking at the watch. I was just waiting for total recovery (HR under 100) and for a clear run, with a number of other people on the track. Looks like between 2:37 (at the start) and 4:04 (at the end). Top of the calf is sore again, so some easy days, with some cycling is in order. I can see how pacing in the 400 is very important. The distance is long enough that if you overreach at the start, your hopes of just hanging on until the finish are pretty slim. It would definitely help to have a good solid but well paced start (and definitely a number of people to run with during the race). This one might need a few practice swings!

Pisco Sour

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

I wasn't looking at the watch. I was just waiting for total recovery (HR under 100) and for a clear run, with a number of other people on the track. Looks like between 2:37 (at the start) and 4:04 (at the end). Top of the calf is sore again, so some easy days, with some cycling is in order. I can see how pacing in the 400 is very important. The distance is long enough that if you overreach at the start, your hopes of just hanging on until the finish are pretty slim. It would definitely help to have a good solid but well paced start (and definitely a number of people to run with during the race). This one might need a few practice swings!

Yep it's a tough event to get right. I think you have a very good shot at the sub 60. More of those sessions and you'll be in good nick, but as you said, a few attempts may well be needed.

Looking at your garmin stats and your 100 and 200 pace was slower than your 300 pace which makes me curious to say the least. Were you holding back on the 100 and 200 to save yourself for the 300s?

EDIT: Do you do any strength and conditioning work as part of your normal training routine? Might be worth doing something to strengthen those calves as they take a battering during sprints!

Krusty_Clown

Pisco Sour wrote: »

Yep it's a tough event to get right. I think you have a very good shot at the sub 60. More of those sessions and you'll be in good nick, but as you said, a few attempts may well be needed.

Looking at your garmin stats and your 100 and 200 pace was slower than your 300 pace which makes me curious to say the least. Were you holding back on the 100 and 200 to save yourself for the 300s?

EDIT: Do you do any strength and conditioning work as part of your normal training routine? Might be worth doing something to strengthen those calves as they take a battering during sprints!

I reckon it's because on the loose gravel/shingle of the track surface it's very difficult to get any purchase when you're starting off and acceleration is slow, so I'm running at sub-optimal speed for the first few seconds (which is a significant percentage of the 100m and 200m runs). On the longer runs you spend more time at target speed, so the average pace is higher. Either that or I just have very slow acceleration.

I was doing weights and core three times a week for marathon training, but have not picked it back up since. Will try and start it up again this week. Not sure if they'll have any impact on the calfs though.

Krusty_Clown

Today: 5 pissy miles
Sunny day, wet day. Sunny day, wet day. Today was wet day, but the rain suited the mood. Very easy 5 miles around Corkagh, as the top of the calf (where it attaches to the ligament?) was sore after yesterday's sprints, but thankfully it seemed to loosen up a little as the miles went on, so hopefully more a case of stiffness than any longer lasting problem. Will go return to weights and core this evening, after a four week layoff.

Summary: 5 miles in 42 mins, @8:24/mile, HR=~120

Krusty_Clown

Today: Another 5 pissy miles
I'm beginning to understand why sprinters run so few miles. It's not just down to laziness. It's because they're always straddling that fine line between niggles and injury, so are almost permanently in recovery mode (except during off-season, when they run like normal people (and are less lazy)). Today, my calf felt a good bit better, but out of the blue my right ham-string felt strained which could only be a further result of Monday's sprints. I'm beginning to wonder if 40 is just a little too old to try sprinting for the very first time (Thank Batman that TheRoadRunner isn't around to read that). So it seems I can only manage one sprint session per week, and the rest of the week is focused on recovery runs. Looking forward to getting back to marathon training!
Summary: 5 miles in 41:55, @8:06/mile, HR=~125

Also:
Last night: 15 x 15 core strength, and 15 x 2 x 4 weights

Krusty_Clown

...and another 5 miles in 41 mins @8:12, HR=~120

Pisco Sour

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

[(except during off-season, when they run like normal people (and are less lazy)).

That one made me chuckle

ManFromAtlantis

i'll probably get shot down for saying this (not by krusty i hope) but, would you ever think of forgetting about the shorter stuff and get back on the trail proper for the dublin marathon in oct ? even if the 400m is just a stop gap might take its toll injurywise.?


oh i just see the end of your last message re gettin back to marathon training !

Pisco Sour

ManFromAtlantis wrote: »

i'll probably get shot down for saying this (not by krusty i hope) but, would you ever think of forgetting about the shorter stuff and get back on the trail proper for the dublin marathon in oct ? even if the 400m is just a stop gap might take its toll injurywise.?

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Why though? If he's enjoying trying out new things then what harm (as long as he does it sensibly and doesn't feck up his body in the process). He's been there, done that, has collected a lot of t-shirts, with regards the marathon. Maybe a go at shorter events may be as much of a mental break as anything from the marathon training before he goes back to it fully refreshed and refocused.

Krusty_Clown

ManFromAtlantis wrote: »

i'll probably get shot down for saying this (not by krusty i hope) but, would you ever think of forgetting about the shorter stuff and get back on the trail proper for the dublin marathon in oct ? even if the 400m is just a stop gap might take its toll injurywise.?

oh i just see the end of your last message re gettin back to marathon training !

It's a fair point and one I've been pondering over the last two weeks (of niggles). It may be just a case that I'm not able for sprint type events. I gave up football a few years ago (ironically because it was causing constant niggles) so haven't done any kind of sprinting at all for at least 5 years. It takes the body time to adapt to something completely different (like hill-running, sprinting or long distances) and I haven't given it a gradual build-up. Not ready to throw in the towel yet though. Will give it a few more weeks. It may be a case of just going out there and giving it a pop and hoping for the best.

On the other hand, speed gains don't come free. The best way to gain speed is to work on it over shorter distances and carry that speed into longer distances like the marathon. Admittedly, 400m -> marathon is quite a leap, but if I can improve speed (and efficiency) over 400m, perhaps it's something I could carry into 5k/10k and onwards to the marathon. Still not decided whether Dublin '12 will be a target race yet. London '13 absolutely is though (as long as I get in), so perhaps my focus over the next 6 months should be building from 400m, 5k, 10k, half marathon and on to London. More pondering required.

Krusty_Clown

Pisco Sour wrote: »

Why though? If he's enjoying trying out new things then what harm (as long as he does it sensibly and doesn't feck up his body in the process). He's been there, done that, has collected a lot of t-shirts, with regards the marathon. Maybe a go at shorter events may be as much of a mental break as anything from the marathon training before he goes back to it fully refreshed and refocused.

It is a good mental break and does make for a pleasant change, though if my legs continue to struggle with the workouts, I'll have to strongly reconsider. It would irk me greatly to concede that I cannot sprint (and leave that box unchecked in the top 10 list) but it would irk me to a greater extent if I ended up with a more significant injury.

He's been there, done that, has collected a lot of t-shirts, with regards the marathon.

I could turn that around and say the same thing to you about sprint distances, but to be fair, you have tried the marathon (once) and the decathlon.

dna_leri

I am surprised how seriously you are taking this 400m lark, but I think you will see benefits at the 5K/10K races if not for marathons, however if you really get injured you will want to shoot Cisco Power.

I think you should adjust your intensity so that it does not interfere with other training. No more than the marathon training if it hurts you are probably doing too much or too hard. Ease back a little and you will still get the benefit at a lower risk.

Pisco Sour

dna_leri wrote: »

however if you really get injured you will want to shoot Cisco Power.

I'm not forcing him to do this, nor holding a gun to his head. I will take no responsibility if he injures himself doing sprint training incorrectly.

Pisco Sour

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

I could turn that around and say the same thing to you about sprint distances, but to be fair, you have tried the marathon (once) and the decathlon.

.. and a half marathon, a sprint and Olympic triathlon, multiple 10k's and 5k's, along with every track distance below that (except hurdles), every field event bar the hammer throw, and even the walk. Most of the above were performed at a shockingly awful level, but what harm. Good to give it a try anyway.

But you've been pretty good yourself at giving different distances a go. For a marathon/ ultra runner to give the mile, 3K, and to consider the 400m is certainly to be commended. The point I was making about the "been there done that" was just that there's no harm in you trying shorter distances in between marathon cycles, that's all.

Krusty_Clown

dna_leri wrote: »

I am surprised how seriously you are taking this 400m lark, but I think you will see benefits at the 5K/10K races if not for marathons, however if you really get injured you will want to shoot Cisco Power.

I think you should adjust your intensity so that it does not interfere with other training. No more than the marathon training if it hurts you are probably doing too much or too hard. Ease back a little and you will still get the benefit at a lower risk.

I take everything in life very seriously! This has nothing to do with I Cuss Poor, he's just shouts encouragement at anyone attempting sprint-type events. I may well be doing it wrong (certainly my approach is evidently far from wrong!), but I have not succeeded in finding anything that resembles a gradual build-up plan. In fact, I've only done two sessions (in the last two weeks), so in theory it should not have been interfering with other goals.

I think what I may need is a proper pre-sprint warm-up, as my usual long-distance warm-up routine (3 or 4 hilly miles followed by a bit of a stretch!) doesn't seem suitable for this kind of stuff.

Dory Dory

Hi KC!! How's your swimming coming along??

Pisco Sour

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

I think what I may need is a proper pre-sprint warm-up, as my usual long-distance warm-up routine (3 or 4 hilly miles followed by a bit of a stretch!) doesn't seem suitable for this kind of stuff.

Get some strides in before doing the sessions.

Krusty_Clown

Dory Dory wrote: »

Hi KC!! How's your swimming coming along??

I've only got room for one devil on my shoulder, to whisper subversive messages.

Dory Dory

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

I've only got room for one devil on my shoulder, to whisper subversive messages.

(shhhh...I know....that was my distract and divert method to get the heat off of you. )

ManFromAtlantis

Pisco Sour wrote: »

Why though? If he's enjoying trying out new things then what harm (as long as he does it sensibly and doesn't feck up his body in the process). He's been there, done that, has collected a lot of t-shirts, with regards the marathon. Maybe a go at shorter events may be as much of a mental break as anything from the marathon training before he goes back to it fully refreshed and refocused.

ah, krusty seems to be getting a bit grumpy with all this new fangled fast stuff. he's not right so he's not.
clown - sit in the corner whilst we sort out whats best for ya.

Krusty_Clown

ManFromAtlantis wrote: »

ah, krusty seems to be getting a bit grumpy with all this new fangled fast stuff. he's not right so he's not.
clown - sit in the corner whilst we sort out whats best for ya.

Sure thing. Just add my workouts directly to my Google Calendar.

RandyMann

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

I'm beginning to wonder if 40 is just a little too old to try sprinting for the very first time

No 40 is not too old. I took it up for the first time last year at 39 just out of curiousity to see how fast I could run and I am still doing it a year later without major problems. A torn hamstring last year, not a major tear but it was the result of not warming up properly.
If I could give you advice, it would be to pay particular attention to your warmups with lots of dynamic stretching after you warmup jogs(Stretching hamstrings and quads, calfs etc.
After that your strides, (I do about 6 X 60m, 3 strides in runners, 3 strides in spikes) should be a gradual wind up in intensity. Most of my intervals/speed work is done at near 100% now during race season so the gradual warmup/windup in intensity is very important beforehand.
Nowadays I am relatively injury free, touch wood but it took time to work out where the fine line is of taking a step back when injury is looming.
My rest, recovery from the track, is usually spent doing strength work in the gym and which gives my legs a chance to heal/recover.
Hope this helps.

Krusty_Clown

RandyMann wrote: »

No 40 is not too old. I took it up for the first time last year at 39 just out of curiousity to see how fast I could run and I am still doing it a year later without major problems. A torn hamstring last year, not a major tear but it was the result of not warming up properly.

No major problems and a torn hamstring in the same paragraph! Yep, I think that warming up suitably will make a big difference, so I'll adopt your warm-up strategy. Any links to recommended dynamic stretches? And thanks. It does indeed help.

RandyMann

This link http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ofOj5cRIH30 shows a lot of the stretches I do. I would pay a lot of attention to A/B skip and running B's etc. The legs swings especially the leg swing for hamstring stretch, I would do near the end just before my strides.
With the above, like high knees etc, be aware that you dont sink your hips with each movement. Keep your hips hips high, let your hips flexors do the work. What I mean is when you are sprinting you dont want this movement of sinking down to go back up again. This is where a strong core and hip flexors are important for running form. If your form is right and you have good runnning economy, it will be half the battle.
The main problem I had was shin splints throughout the winter. The cold weather had a lot to do with it I think as with the track I run on, there would be less give on it as the rubber would be harder. Now it seems they dont give me any real problems now but that could be also me just getting used to it over the year.
The plyometric work would also also put a lot of stress on my lower legs but I don't think you will doing much of that.
Do as much of your warmup/dynamic/strides on grass if you can.
As regards the gym and weights etc, you probably have that covered?