Send in the Clowns - BAC 10K Challenge

RunningKing

those tempo mile times are savage.

For the actual tempo run, whats the rational for doing these on the cinder track as opposed to the open road?

Krusty_Clown

RunningKing wrote: »

those tempo mile times are savage.

For the actual tempo run, whats the rational for doing these on the cinder track as opposed to the open road?

Hi RunningKing, there's a few reasons why I do them on the cinder track:
1) It's a softer surface than running on concrete/tarmac. Not much softer mind you, but slightly more yielding. At tempo pace, the legs would get a bit of a mashing on harder surfaces.
2) It's flat. There aren't that many flat loops closer to where I work (it's quite hilly around Carrickmines), so the track is ideal. It actually isn't entirely flat either (there are small climbs on the track!), but on a loop, you get equal up and down. I've been guilty in the past of opting for slightly downhill routes during tempos!
3) You get the wind in equal measure.
4) Few obstructions, other than a few dog walkers. 5:50/mile is tough without having to deal with other runners, cyclists, traffic lights, kerbs, gates etc.
5) You can compare progress with other tempo runs.
6) No problems with GPS inaccuracy, as your pace is determined by your lap splits, rather than the watch. Nothing worse than running under some heavy tree-line, only to see your average pace jump from 5:50/mile to 6:05/mile while running at a consistent pace!
7) Constant terrain means consistent effort. An undulating terrain or windy day results in hard and easy bits, but tracks on a loop result in a pretty constant (rising) amout of effort.

Ok, more than a few reasons! Last time I followed this plan, I was doing my reps on the cycle tracks around Adamstown. Not a bad alternative, if you can find a long flat section of fresh tarmac.

RunningKing

interesting and insightful.Thanks.

Would you recommend doing this sort of tempo on a hilly course to mimic an upcoming race (as I'm doing with difficulty!)

Krusty_Clown

RunningKing wrote: »

interesting and insightful.Thanks.

Would you recommend doing this sort of tempo on a hilly course to mimic an upcoming race (as I'm doing with difficulty!)

I don't know that it would be really beneficial, unless your tempo pace happens to also be your race pace. Tempo pace is generally the pace at which you can run for an hour, so for me that would be pretty close to 10 mile pace (~5:45-5:50/mile). So if your goal race is a half marathon, then running significantly faster over a hilly course would be extremely challenging. Perhaps T-Runner might disagree, but he's a hardy buck and does lots of fast hill-work! I couldn't see myself lasting too long on very hilly terrain at tempo pace.

Might be easier to just ask you: What distance race, and how big (metres) are the hills that you are doing your tempos on?

RunningKing

10k race for GIR.

Was doing mile repeats at higher than race pace over Military hill / Upper Glen / Furry Glen.
Also doing 30m tempo at slightly lower than 10k pace (6:30 v 6:20) over same route.

appreciate the advice - thanks.

Krusty_Clown

RunningKing wrote: »

10k race for GIR.

Was doing mile repeats at higher than race pace over Military hill / Upper Glen / Furry Glen.
Also doing 30m tempo at slightly lower than 10k pace (6:30 v 6:20) over same route.

appreciate the advice - thanks.

Is that what your program prescribes? Doing a 30 minute tempo over that terrain should be fine, as long as your ups and downs are pretty much in equal measure. Personally, I think I'd be aiming to do the tempo on a flatter circuit, while I'd probably do mile repeats on the course (however, I'd probably move closer to race pace, in a similar structure to the McMillan 10k workouts) and back it up with some faster reps (e.g. 400s @5k pace). but if it's working for you, don't change it! (and bear in mind I'm no expert).

That's a really tough tempo session though, with just 2.5% difference between your 10k goal race pace and your tempo pace, for 75%+ of the amount of time you'll be running for the 10k. That'd be the equivalent of 30 minutes at 5:42/mile for me, over an undulating circuit. Nasty!

T runner

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

I don't know that it would be really beneficial, unless your tempo pace happens to also be your race pace. Tempo pace is generally the pace at which you can run for an hour, so for me that would be pretty close to 10 mile pace (~5:45-5:50/mile). So if your goal race is a half marathon, then running significantly faster over a hilly course would be extremely challenging. Perhaps T-Runner might disagree, but he's a hardy buck and does lots of fast hill-work! I couldn't see myself lasting too long on very hilly terrain at tempo pace.

Might be easier to just ask you: What distance race, and how big (metres) are the hills that you are doing your tempos on?

I guess i might do HM effort on the uphills for some long steady runs. So maybe 3 by 15 mins uphill but with plenty of recovery.

My sessions aren't nearly as hard as yours unfortuanately. Genuinely need recovery day after reading your log.

RunningKing wrote: »

10k race for GIR.

Was doing mile repeats at higher than race pace over Military hill / Upper Glen / Furry Glen.
Also doing 30m tempo at slightly lower than 10k pace (6:30 v 6:20) over same route.

appreciate the advice - thanks.

A longer session you could do is 12k @ 105% race pace (effort) to help give you specific endurance for the event. Thats 6:40 pace if 6:20 average race pace is accurate for the GIR course. Add the 2k before the GIR course. Keep the effort constant so pace should fluctuate on the hills. If youve plenty in the tank you can up it slighly as you go. Its a hard run. Youll get a little more endurance with it being over distance, but your 30 min runs are great too.

Is that what you were thinking of? The 30 minute tempos youve been doing should help greatly. You might be looking for faster than 6:20 come race day though?

Krusty_Clown

T runner wrote: »

The 30 minute tempos youve been doing should help greatly. You might be looking for faster than 6:20 come race day though?

That's what I was thinking myself. If I could manage 102% for 30 minutes of a 38/39 minute race, I'd be wondering if a rethink about goal times might be wise. Then while I was out having my recovery run, I thought about it some more. I was thinking, that there probably isn't a huge amount of difference between:
2 x 20 mins @5:48 (from yesterday)
and
1 x 30 mins @5:42 (equivalent tempo to RunningKing's)
which would put it into the same realm as yesterday's session (or at least similar effort to the first half of a recent 10 mile race), so perhaps more manageable (once you've built up to it).

RunningKing: I presume you've built up to it gradually? Either way, I reckon you're going to have a great race in GIR.

RunningKing

Cheers guys, my A race is the KClub 10k, but the GIR hills have caused me issues in the past.

I'll be hoping for a low 39 or 38xx in KClub, for now I just want to make sure my training at that pace on those hills is not a receipe for disaster.

Thanks for the replies.

pconn062

RunningKing wrote: »

Cheers guys, my A race is the KClub 10k, but the GIR hills have caused me issues in the past.

I'll be hoping for a low 39 or 38xx in KClub, for now I just want to make sure my training at that pace on those hills is not a receipe for disaster.

Thanks for the replies.

Sorry for hijacking your log here Krusty but I just wanted to let you know RK that the K club 10k course is known for being 200m short (at least it has been for the last 2 years) so it's not really a course you can count a PB on unfortunately (as I ran a "PB" on it last year).

average_runner

pconn062 wrote: »

Sorry for hijacking your log here Krusty but I just wanted to let you know RK that the K club 10k course is known for being 200m short (at least it has been for the last 2 years) so it's not really a course you can count a PB on unfortunately (as I ran a "PB" on it last year).

K club 10k is not short. Ran this for last 2 years and has been dead on.
One of the best races in the calendar.

pconn062

average_runner wrote: »

K club 10k is not short. Ran this for last 2 years and has been dead on.
One of the best races in the calendar.

Well by my watch and the four other guys I went up with it was short. I know Garmins can be out but each of us had it out by the same amount (150-200m). I also averaged 6.24 pace last year which should give me a 39.50 10k but I came in @ 39.18 so go figure. I agree though, apart from that it's a great race.

Apologies again for the hijack Krusty!

average_runner

pconn062 wrote: »

Well by my watch and the four other guys I went up with it was short. I know Garmins can be out but each of us had it out by the same amount (150-200m). I also averaged 6.24 pace last year which should give me a 39.50 10k but I came in @ 39.18 so go figure. I agree though, apart from that it's a great race.

Apologies again for the hijack Krusty!

Sorry about this krusty.

I've also ran it the last 2 years and its come in a bit over on the garmin, plus i know the people that measured it and its 10k. Garmin can lose signal if running too close to ditches etc too.

Also my times for 10k are consistent with that 10k. How did your other 10k times compare to it?

belcarra

My race measured 9.92km and there were 5 reasonably sharp (90deg) turns on the course, so if the GPS was cutting those corners when mapping the route then that could easily account for the missing 80m from my Garmin so I'd be happy enough to count this as a PB.
(Edit: When I examine the map on GC it appears at each one of those corners my Av Pace increased when in reality you'd usually expect to slow down around a 90deg bend. This would confirm in my mind that the Garmin was cutting the corner. Depending on your watch set-up it could be a coarser measurement and that might inflate the error margin further, potentially leading to the 150m shortfall?)

pconn062

Lets agree to disagree before we get banned for trolling on someone elses log!

Krusty_Clown

belcarra wrote: »

My race measured 9.92km and there were 5 reasonably sharp (90deg) turns on the course, so if the GPS was cutting those corners when mapping the route then that could easily account for the missing 80m from my Garmin so I'd be happy enough to count this as a PB.

Give us a link!

Yesterday: 5 Mile recovery Today: 5 Mile recovery

After Wednesday's session the focus has been on getting the body back into shape for tomorrow's long run and catching up on this week's core work. Feeling a little arthritic for this morning's early run, but hopefully will be fully-mended for a solid long weekend of training. I'm now on my fifth day off the beer, and must admit, I'm missing it (didn't help that Mrs Clown arrived home with a handful of bottles of Sierra Nevada last night (She only seems to buy Sierra Nevada when I give up the beer; cruel wench!)). Followed up yesterday's run with P&D advanced core work, weights and plank.

belcarra

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

Give us a link!

K Club 10km
Corners at: 3km, 3.84km, 4.93km, 6.22km and 7.1km.
I'm happy with my reckoning anyways...<scampers off to avoid argument being taken apart!:pac:>

NiallG4

belcarra wrote: »

K Club 10km
Corners at: 3km, 3.84km, 4.93km, 6.22km and 7.1km.
I'm happy with my reckoning anyways...<scampers off to avoid argument being taken apart!:pac:>

Maybe this needs a new thread but amongst our club in Dundalk it is commonly accepted that is is a great course and great event but about 150M short. Last 2 years links


http://connect.garmin.com/activity/170739882
http://connect.garmin.com/activity/81670985

NiallG4

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

Give us a link!

Yesterday: 5 Mile recovery Today: 5 Mile recovery

After Wednesday's session the focus has been on getting the body back into shape for tomorrow's long run and catching up on this week's core work. Feeling a little arthritic for this morning's early run, but hopefully will be fully-mended for a solid long weekend of training. I'm now on my fifth day off the beer, and must admit, I'm missing it (didn't help that Mrs Clown arrived home with a handful of bottles of Sierra Nevada last night (She only seems to buy Sierra Nevada when I give up the beer; cruel wench!)). Followed up yesterday's run with P&D advanced core work, weights and plank.

Are you doing the Dune Half Marathon?

Krusty_Clown

NiallG4 wrote: »

Maybe this needs a new thread but amongst our club in Dundalk it is commonly accepted that is is a great course and great event but about 150M short. Last 2 years links


http://connect.garmin.com/activity/170739882
http://connect.garmin.com/activity/81670985

S'funny, if you switch to Google maps, and switch to satellite view, all three of the links posted so far show some element of the tracklog cutting physical corners. This is to be expected on a course with a number of corners (which this course has in abundance given the two loops). 'This' jury is out, on whether it's short or not. Only the official measurers can tell.

NiallG4 wrote:

Are you doing the Dune Half Marathon?

Signed up for it all right. Have a long (22 mile) hard run tomorrow morning, so I'm not sure how recovered I'll be from it for the half marathon on Monday. So it'll most likely be a 13 mile PMP run (though even that may prove to be a stretch). Are you doing it yourself?

NiallG4

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

S'funny, if you switch to Google maps, and switch to satellite view, all three of the links posted so far show some element of the tracklog cutting physical corners. This is to be expected on a course with a number of corners (which this course has in abundance given the two loops). 'This' jury is out, on whether it's short or not. Only the official measurers can tell.


Signed up for it all right. Have a long (22 mile) hard run tomorrow morning, so I'm not sure how recovered I'll be from it for the half marathon on Monday. So it'll most likely be a 13 mile PMP run (though even that may prove to be a stretch). Are you doing it yourself?

No, been under the weather for the past 3 weeks and only getting back. I will probably be at the carrickdale hotel watching you's go by. Best of luck and don't be too disappointed if no pb because I ran part of the route twice this week and the winds have changed and could be head winds. Good luck.

Krusty_Clown

Race weight:
Target weight = 11st 3lbs (71.2kgs)
Current weight = 11st 2lbs (70.7kgs)

So I've dropped below my target race weight, based entirely on the principle that in order to shave weight, you need to burn more calories than you ingest. Or more specifically:
Daily Calorie allowance + exercise >= Daily calorie intake

No changes to diet, just a bit of junk management. I'm sure that as the mileage drops over the coming weeks, the weight will rise a little (which I wont worry about too much), but that's where taking a break from the beer will come in handy.

The Experiment:
Around 5 weeks ago I decided to give an online food diary a try, to track my eating patterns. It has been a bit of an eye-opener.
The way it works is:
1) You establish a profile (weight, height, activity levels etc).
2) You set your goal (in my case a rather loose 0.5lbs loss per week)
3) The site/app/whatever determines a recommended daily calorific goal, in order to meet your weight target (in my case 2,350 calories).
4) For any exercise you do (I just add running) you increase your daily calorie allowance (so for example, if I run 10 miles, then my daily calorie allowance is: 2,350 + (10 x 100 calories) = 3,350 and that is your daily calorie allowance.
In reality, some days you will go over that target. Many other days, you will go well under that target, but generally speaking, you should approach your target weight.

Where it gets really interesting though, is the food tracking functionality. Apart from the usual classifications (Breakfast, lunch and dinner), I added some additional fields:
Junk/Snacks
Run Nutrition
Beverages (aka alcohol).

Now, when you start to separate what you are ingesting into different classifications based on their purpose/value, a couple of things happen:
1) You suddenly realize just how many calories you are taking on with every beer you drink and every snack you eat
2) You start to think strongly about alternatives to calorie rich snacks and junk
3) You start to think more about the types of food you are eating

Eye-opener:
Apart from the shock of just how many calories I consumed in beer and junk (I genuinely thought I had a very healthy diet) the real shock was when I would have the greatest calorie deficit. A typical Saturday or Sunday morning, I might go for a hard 18-22 mile session. So my calorie allowance for that day would be an impressive:
2,350 calories + 2,200 calories = 4,550 calories. A veritable feast you might think!
In fact, these were often the days in which I ended up having the greatest calorie surplus. Understandably, on these hard session days, the body demands more calories, and I'm a little more chilled about my eating habits, so a few beers, a handful of chocolate biscuits, a post-race pack of jellies. They all added up and despite the benefits of the long run or race, I found that I'd have consumed 500-600 more calories than I had burnt that day!

All life in harmony:
I'm not obsessed about my weight (I've always been pretty lean). As long as I'm close to my target race weight, I'll be happy. I don't care about daily allowances, and don't stick to them, as I know one days' surplus is another day's deficit. But this has been a very interesting experiment. Instead of dieting/eating less food, I often find that I have an opportunity to eat more food. Now, I'm just a little more conscious about what I eat. I tend to avoid calorie-rich junk food, in favour of healthier alternatives, but find that is still plenty of room for the occasional Crunchie, Mars bar or Bounty.

Worth a pop?
Definitely worth an experiment, if you have 5-8 weeks to an A-goal race, and want to get there in best possible shape. Food diaries also track thinks like the breakdown of Carbs/Fats/Protein/cholestrol/Vitamins etc. The data is only as good as the data that you input, so should be taken with a pinch of salt. The diary I've been playing with is MyFitnessPal, which is free (ad-supported) and has web-based user interface as well as Android and iPhone apps. I've attached a screenshot from last Wednesday (16 mile session + 5 mile recovery run), so you can get an idea of what I'm talking about.

(I have no connection to this site/app/ad revenue! Have just seen results and been meaning to post on the subject for a while).

Solobally8

Thanks for that link Krusty. Just joined there and logged todays food. I'm over my requirements by 1,432 calories already today :eek:

wrstan

Thanks for the detail Krusty

Out of interest, how did you determine your target weight.

Thanks

Krusty_Clown

wrstan wrote: »

Thanks for the detail Krusty

Out of interest, how did you determine your target weight.

Thanks

Nothing so scientific, I'm afraid. I have been down at that weight a couple of times previously for marathons and ran well. I'm sure my ideal race weight is probably down at around 9~9.5 stone, but I'm not that dedicated (says he after getting up at 5:45 for a run with Pronator). Having said that, I haven't been at this weight since I was 18 years old, so I'll be interested to see where my weight ends up and what kind of impact it will have on my racing. Needless to say when this is over, I'll be hitting the cheese burgers and fries Elvis style!

Emer has also been using the food diary so I must ask her how she finds it, but she has no immediate A races at the moment, so probably isn't quite as focused (also my calorie allowance is almost twice hers, which rocks!).

myflipflops

What height are you?

Badreputation

Thanks again for the info. The link to the calorie count is very useful. Your training is savage and as usual the info you are providing for us mere mortals is worth a lot. Think I bumped into you at Ballycotton when we moved from the seat when changing pre race. Wasnt sure until I saw the Bray singlet on the way out. Best of luck with the remaining training for London. Training as well for London but a bit off where I would like to be at this stage.

Krusty_Clown

myflipflops wrote: »

What height are you?

6 foot, medium build.

BadReputation wrote:

Thanks again for the info. The link to the calorie count is very useful. Your training is savage and as usual the info you are providing for us mere mortals is worth a lot. Think I bumped into you at Ballycotton when we moved from the seat when changing pre race. Wasnt sure until I saw the Bray singlet on the way out. Best of luck with the remaining training for London. Training as well for London but a bit off where I would like to be at this stage.

We're all but mere mortals in this game. We're all just at different points in a progressioin curve. Pretty soon you'll look at my times and think ''Jaysus, he talked a lot for someone running average times'! Thanks a lot for the seat! For a men's changing room, there were an awful lot of women sitting around having a good natter! I wonder if we'd headed to the indoor heated comfort of the women's changing room and sat down for a chat, would we have been welcomed? Must find out next year! Best of luck with the rest of the London training. Hope you'll make it into the Coal hole for a few pints. Give me an opportunity to return the favour and give up my seat for ya*!

*not guaranteed!

Krusty_Clown

Today: 22 Mile Steady run

I was all set to arrive at Pronator's gaff at 7am this morning, with a tired grumpy head on me, but when he told me he had been working through the night and was now ready for our 22 mile steady run, I had to bite my lip and shut-up. Some people are just built of hardier stuff. The outside temperature guauge on the car was reading -1'C, so I was well equipped with jacket, hat and gloves. After an easy mile or two, the gloves came off and then the hat, and we were knocking off miles at a consistent 6:30-6:45 per mile. The sun had come out and it got quite warm, so I should have found a spot to ditch my jacket, but I had to get back home after our run pretty sharpish, so taking a detour to pick up my jacket wasn't really a runner. We headed along the N11, detouring around Kilpedder and headed down through Charlesland into Greystones proper.

Some nice comfortable downhills were inevitably followed by some pretty tough uphill miles and the legs were really feeling the week's 90 miles. Getting back on the flat, the pace was back around 6:3x, but at this stage I was feeling pretty dehydrated, so was willing the watch to tick off the final miles. For the final mile, I was just hanging in there, feeling pretty wretched, so was well happy when we hit the turn off that marked the final couple of minutes. So a very solid steady 22 miles. We were both too tired for backslapping and high-fives afterwards, but it was certainly a job well done. Fair play to Pronator, who is made of sterner stuff than I. Under those same circumstances I'd have found some other way to run the miles some other time.

Had to head home to go cheer on the girls in the MSB 5K in town, so a brief stop off at home for a shower and I was gone again. Arrived in, just as the race started, and got to see TRR, TW2, Meno, Marthastew and the girls heading off. A quick stop off in a cafe for some post-run recovery grub and I was back out near the finish line to catch the fine finishing performances (and some photos, that I'll post up later on Racepix). So who won the battle of the giants? Both TRR and Thirstywork2 ran extremely well and finished with superb times, but that's largely irrelevant, as they were well beaten by a Bray/Sli Cualann Runner, which is the only result that counts. Seriously though, much kudos on the fine times, which I can only dream of. Met the Cru Stew family afterwards, who had all run superb times (especially junior). If there was a family prize, they'd be heading home with it under one arm. Cracking run by BTH too, who ain't a half-bad runner, for someone who dabbles in the dark arts.

Summary: 22 miles in 2:27, @6:41/mile, HR=148

Kurt Godel

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

Today: 22 Mile Steady run

I was all set to arrive at Pronator's gaff at 7am this morning, with a tired grumpy head on me, but when he told me he had been working through the night and was now ready for our 22 mile steady run, I had to bite my lip and shut-up. Some people are just built of hardier stuff.

There's always a bigger nut! Pronator really takes the biscuit though!