Send in the Clowns - BAC 10K Challenge

Krusty_Clown

AuldManKing wrote: »

KC - you reference an 'inability to hit the numbers' - when you set out to do a tempo, do you set out try to hit the suggested pace target or 'do it by feel' using the 'comfortably hard' analogy?
Do you think we as runners are hung up with hitting 'suggested paces' based on vdot etc or (in your opinion) is there a mental aspect to being able to hit the numbers??

Hi Alan, I run the tempos by feel. I check my split at the first 200 and 400 (just to make sure I'm not going out too hard), but run on feel for the remaining x laps. So when I say I didn't 'hit the numbers' I'm referring to looking back after the session is completed, and comparing the results with where I would have hoped to have been. So for example, for yesterday's session, I ran the first 5k at 5:45/mile pace, which is a little slow for the kind of marathon target I'm aiming for. But looking at my average heart rate of 153, I was running a little too comfortably.

When I was doing the 5k training though, there was very much a need for 'doing things by the numbers', as arriving from a marathon background, you need to know whether you are hitting the right pace, particularly for targets that you have never trained for or run previously. 1 Mile pace, 3k pace, 3200m pace, 5k pace, etc. If you plan on training at these paces without having any inclination that you are on target or not, then you may be kidding yourself. Same thing with race pace simulation. A session like 4x800m@5k pace, you need to know that you are hitting the pace that you are planning to hit for your goal race, 10 days later.

I certainly have been guilty in the past (including the recent past) of getting too hung-up on the numbers, particularly over longer distance sessions and not taking things into account like peak mileage etc., and punishing myself mentally when things don't go to plan, but it's all part of the learning process (and one of the risks of being self sufficient from a training/coaching perspective). Right now, I'm not too bothered about hitting tempo pace, as with 2.5 weeks to go, the only thing that is important is marathon pace and arriving at the starting line feeling fresh and uninjured. The fact that I was cruising at 5:45/mile (and enjoying it) bodes well for the marathon.

I guess that just as it is blind to follow vdots and training plans without any interpretation or personalization of the data or structure, it is also blind not to use additional training aids where they are available. The keyword is 'plan'. They are proposals rather than a concrete set of activities, and we need to be mindful of the other variables that influence our performances.

Krusty_Clown

Wednesday: 10 miles easy @7:36
Thursday: 6.5 miles easy
Friday: 6 miles easy with strides

It's getting to that tough time in the schedule, where I have to ration my miles, so I can get a proper run in every day, and still not top out on the planned weekly mileage. When you have adjusted to 15 miles a day, 6 miles feels like a bit of an anti-climax, particularly in the perfect running conditions we have at the moment. After running 13, 16, and 10 miles over the first three days of the week, that leaves me with 6 miles a day for the remaining three days before Sunday's planned 20 mile run. Wednesday headed out with my training buddy for an easy 10 miles. Sadly his marathon dreams are all but over for this year, having been unsuccessful in trying to shake off his injury. Just easy runs on Wednesday and Thursday, but good to see easy pace take a dive under 7 minute/mile, instead of the more typical high mileage 7:15-7:20/mile.

Just outside of race weight now (11 stone 1lb (70kgs)), with a little over two weeks to go. Also passed the marathon readiness test with flying colours:



Nowhere left to go...

ThebitterLemon

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

Wednesday: 10 miles easy @7:36
Thursday: 6.5 miles easy
Friday: 6 miles easy with strides

It's getting to that tough time in the schedule, where I have to ration my miles, so I can get a proper run in every day, and still not top out on the planned weekly mileage. When you have adjusted to 15 miles a day, 6 miles feels like a bit of an anti-climax, particularly in the perfect running conditions we have at the moment. After running 13, 16, and 10 miles over the first three days of the week, that leaves me with 6 miles a day for the remaining three days before Sunday's planned 20 mile run. Wednesday headed out with my training buddy for an easy 10 miles. Sadly his marathon dreams are all but over for this year, having been unsuccessful in trying to shake off his injury. Just easy runs on Wednesday and Thursday, but good to see easy pace take a dive under 7 minute/mile, instead of the more typical high mileage 7:15-7:20/mile.

Just outside of race weight now (11 stone 1lb (70kgs)), with a little over two weeks to go. Also passed the marathon readiness test with flying colours:



Nowhere left to go...

Jesus man, I've seen Connemara pig farmers with belts in better condition than that

TbL

Krusty_Clown

ThebitterLemon wrote: »

Jesus man, I've seen Connemara pig farmers with belts in better condition than that

TbL

I expected to get some flack for posting pictures of my crotch online, but fashion faux pas?! Not enough sequins for you?
It's got rustic charm.

ThebitterLemon

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

I expected to get some flack for posting pictures of my crotch online, but fashion faux pas?! Not enough sequins for you?
It's got rustic charm.

Rustic charm! You either work in a mart an abattoir or have a seriously casual Friday policy where you work!

I've had a container of firewood held together with better looking pieces of material than that yoke

Krusty charm!

TbL

Chivito550

Saw you out running this morning close to Kilbogget Park, sitting on the coat tails of another fella. Was in the car and waved but you didn't see me. You both seemed to be tearing along at a nice tempo anyway.

Krusty_Clown

Chivito550 wrote: »

Saw you out running this morning close to Kilbogget Park, sitting on the coat tails of another fella. Was in the car and waved but you didn't see me. You both seemed to be tearing along at a nice tempo anyway.

Yep, that was myself, Dublin Runner (slightly ahead) and ecoli slightly behind. We took a moment to reminisce about the beer stadium as we ran past!

Saturday: 7 miles including Waterstown Parkrun
Headed off to Waterstown Parkrun, to get a bit of quality and hopefully tick off the last of the Dublin Parkruns. Beautiful but frosty morning greeted us, as I headed off for an easy 2.5 mile warm-up. Course is a little lumpy, with a challenging final uphill climb, but not Ardgillan-hard. 17:08 for the 5k; a decent workout. So that's 'em all wrapped up for another few weeks, until the next one starts up.

Sunday: 20 mile progression run
Met up with ecoli and Dublin Runner for this one and stuck a structured plan on the watch, with the goal of going no faster than a specific target, for each 4 mile segment. Went perfectly to plan and was a very enjoyable run, with the last couple of miles (at around MP) being on the tough side. Could have done with some nutrition, as the energy levels were dipping towards the end, but will have that sorted for the big day.
Segment 1: 28:55 @7:14, HR=132
Segment 2: 27:18 @6:50, HR=131
Segment 3: 26:07 @6:32, HR=136
Segment 4: 25:06 @6:18, HR=149
Segment 5: 24:01 @6:00, HR=155

79.93 miles for the week. Must....resist.... Must...not.....go...out...and...run... 0.07 miles....

Summary: 20 miles (+ ~1.5 mile jog) @6:35, HR=140

Itziger

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

Yep, that was myself, Dublin Runner (slightly ahead) and ecoli slightly behind. We took a moment to reminisce about the beer stadium as we ran past!

Saturday: 7 miles including Waterstown Parkrun
Headed off to Waterstown Parkrun, to get a bit of quality and hopefully tick off the last of the Dublin Parkruns. Beautiful but frosty morning greeted us, as I headed off for an easy 2.5 mile warm-up. Course is a little lumpy, with a challenging final uphill climb, but not Ardgillan-hard. 17:08 for the 5k; a decent workout. So that's 'em all wrapped up for another few weeks, until the next one starts up.

Sunday: 20 mile progression run
Met up with ecoli and Dublin Runner for this one and stuck a structured plan on the watch, with the goal of going no faster than a specific target, for each 4 mile segment. Went perfectly to plan and was a very enjoyable run, with the last couple of miles (at around MP) being on the tough side. Could have done with some nutrition, as the energy levels were dipping towards the end, but will have that sorted for the big day.
Segment 1: 28:55 @7:14, HR=132
Segment 2: 27:18 @6:50, HR=131
Segment 3: 26:07 @6:32, HR=136
Segment 4: 25:06 @6:18, HR=149
Segment 5: 24:01 @6:00, HR=155

79.93 miles for the week. Must....resist.... Must...not.....go...out...and...run... 0.07 miles....

Summary: 20 miles (+ ~1.5 mile jog) @6:35, HR=140

Ah, Jaysus, run up and down the stairs a few times and put out the rubbish bin: .07 done!

Itziger

A fine session there with just two weeks to go. As opposed to me sitting on me arse drinking wine most of the day.

TRR_the_turd

Good stuff Gary, have you decided on a goal time or is that still a bit up in the air?

Krusty_Clown

Itziger wrote: »

A fine session there with just two weeks to go. As opposed to me sitting on me arse drinking wine most of the day.

I know which I'd rather be doing!

TRR_the_turd wrote:

Good stuff Gary, have you decided on a goal time or is that still a bit up in the air?

Cheers Dave. Still hoping for a sub 2:35, so 5:55s all the way. No idea at this point how it'll go, but you gotta have a dream! Tasty little 5k you did yesterday. Any goal races?

TRR_the_turd

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

Cheers Dave. Still hoping for a sub 2:35, so 5:55s all the way. No idea at this point how it'll go, but you gotta have a dream! Tasty little 5k you did yesterday. Any goal races?

good man, well within your grasp.

Not really, Dublin intermediate XC is probably the focus and then the Waterford half the following week but that isn't a major goal. Just want to be active up until Christmas before starting marathon training in January.

Krusty_Clown

Monday: 8 miles easy
Tuesday: 7.3 miles easy
Wednesday: 3 x 2 miles @tempo w/2 mins easy
Thursday: 10 miles easy
Friday: 8 miles easy

Legs and body feeling really good at the moment and weight has dropped to an all-time low (teenage Krusty levels), so though I haven't reduced the amount of food I eat (just eating better quality food), I'm going to start eating more to sustain my current weight if it continues to drop. Next week's low mileage will take care of that though. Mainstay of the week was the penultimate tempo session on Wednesday, which was 3 x 2 miles @ tempo with 2 mins easy (400m jog). Again, I wore the HRM and drowned out the voices in my head with some tunes, but thankfully, this felt really, really easy. Still not running at the tempo pace I had hoped for when this plan kicked off, but glad that it felt so comfortable. Interestingly, I couldn't keep myself from comparing this session to the last time I ran this (the week before running 2:38 in Dublin 2013), and a little alarmingly, my splits are very similar and my heart rate is almost identical. So at least I know I'm in approximately 2:38 shape! If this had been a few weeks ago, I would have been pretty disheartened by the results, but the bottom line is that whatever the stats say, it felt very comfortable and that's a good thing. It's too damn late to change anything now anyway, so I'm committed to this path, whatever happens. I'm sticking with my target and will live with the consequences if it all goes pear-shaped on Sunday week.

Oregano_State

You're right to go for it.

For the weight maintenance, I find lashing full fat milk into me much easier than eating if I'm not hungry. 500ml is 330 kcal.

Krusty_Clown

Marathon plan in review:
With the mileage easing back, I've had a little more time to contemplate this period of marathon training; what's gone well, and what could have gone better. I don't think that following this same plan (JD Plan A) was the right decision on this occasion, as I don't think I have managed to fully leverage the speed gains I made during the first part of the year from the 5k training. I think the over-emphasis on easy running has had a cost in terms of overall performance levels and a custom-tailored plan with greater emphasis on specific speed-endurance sessions would have benefited me to a greater degree. Endurance hasn't been an issue for me, so the volume of easy miles just wasn't that beneficial. Sure, it's great to think that I maxed out at xxx miles, but if I can't associate that with a specific benefit, then the time might have been better utilized in some other way. While I wouldn't describe them as junk miles, I'd find it difficult to justify them in future (benefit neutral).

So why did I choose this plan? I dipped my toe into one of JD's more advanced plans in a newer revision of the book and the world came crashing down around me, when I self-combusted in the first session on day 1 of the plan. That was a sizeable dent to the confidence, and I panicked a little and reached for the comfort blanket of Plan A. To be fair, I'm not sure that any other book-based plan would have provided a more optimal solution and the timing wasn't right for going looking for coaching/mentoring. Perhaps the time would have been ripe to assemble my own plan, but I just wanted to immerse myself in the deep waters of an achievable structure and get into the training as soon as possible.

Positives from this period of training:
1) I'm lighter fitter and faster than I've ever been, with PBs across all distances, from 400m to 1/2 marathon (though in some cases, not as much as I'd like).
2) Despite increasing the mileage, I pretty much did away with the triples and focussed on doubles to accomplish the mileage and I think that has served me well.
3) High mileage/volume was easier to manage and I think I only had 1-2 weeks were I felt pretty much worn out.
4) This training period has coincided with a very busy period in work, and I've managed to juggle work and running without compromising on either (though my family have stopped sending postcards).
5) Injury and niggle free.

Negatives:
1) Feel I was probably in more optimal marathon shape in August, before work-travel, holidays and back injury forced a step-back in quality and emphasis on easy mileage
2) 18 weeks was too long. Hard to keep up the intensity for such a long period. Would have been better off continuing the quality at 5k/10k pace for another month, before switching to a 12 week marathon plan.
3) All of the sessions were just too damn familiar. Needed more variety and lost interest a little when things started to go wrong.
4) Never really any recovery. While I'm a 7 day a week runner, typically I'd end up running 15-18 miles the day after a hard session or race, just to hit the weekly mileage goals (and those specific runs likely featured some junk mileage or may have been counter-productive).

Approach for the future:
1) Identify a suitable coach and start working on a 12-16 month plan
2) Similar structure, with 5-10k for 6-8 months, followed by 12 weeks of marathon-specific training
3) Try and get more training (specifically sessions) in a group environment. Too much plugging away on the cinder track on your toblerone is soul destroying. Ran with a training buddy 2-3 times a week, which was a great way of dealing with the general mileage, but our sessions had very little overlap.
4) Max. out the mileage at 100mpw, and increase the emphasis on quality. Avoid being a slave to the mileage, particularly when accomplishing good quality training.
5) Training focussed on my weaknesses, rather than my strengths. More speed, less endurance.
6) More variety.

So where am I now: I'm actually in a good place and feeling pretty positive about Frankfurt. Were you to ask me for odds, I'd give myself 50/50 to hit my target. That might come across as a little negative, but really, it's not. I'm no less positive that I have been for any other marathon goal and I've managed to hit some of those targets along the way. The margins are always tight, but once more, I'm just glad to be in a position to be having a pop.

ultraman1

Don't over think it ....or to put it in um1 language, dfiu and **** ur pants in public

pconn062

Good synopsis, have you anyone within your club that would be in a position to coach you? I imagine if sub 2.30 is the long term goal then it wouldn't be too difficult to get someone to come on board to help with a project like that.

theboyblunder

Great post gary. Now, do we know of any coaches who suddenly have a lot more time on their hands?


Interesting points about specificity. You have canovas book I think? I thought it was brilliant, he cant write for sh*t, but the idea that when runners have maxed out their aerobic capacity that they will only get faster with dpecific speed endurance work is very appealing. Im not suggesting youve maxed out but at 100 mpw certainly aerobic miles wont help you like they would me.

I think his sessions are brilliant, if hed only modify them for mere mortals I reckon it would be fantastic.

Anyway sounds like a good plan. No doubt you'll squeeze every last yard out of your sugar in frankfurt. Best of luck with the coach search too.

Krusty_Clown

pconn062 wrote: »

Good synopsis, have you anyone within your club that would be in a position to coach you? I imagine if sub 2.30 is the long term goal then it wouldn't be too difficult to get someone to come on board to help with a project like that.

Yep, there's a very accomplished runner (62 minute half marathon), who coaches a number of the folks in the club. I've never had an opportunity to take guidance from him, as I've always been off doing my own thing, so if he can spare the time and has the inclination, I'll try and sound him out about my plans.

theboyblunder wrote:

You have canova's book I think? I thought it was brilliant, he cant write for sh*t, but the idea that when runners have maxed out their aerobic capacity that they will only get faster with specific speed endurance work is very appealing.

Good point. I'd kind of overlooked Canova's work when trying to decide on what plan to follow and must confess that when I did originally read through his book, I found it difficult to interpret, so it didn't really resonate. I'll take another look. I'm not against the idea of putting together a customized plan, but I reckon I'm at a point where I need some wisdom casting an eye over the big picture, to make sure my thinking is joined up.

Shell to Run

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

4) Max. out the mileage at 100mpw, and increase the emphasis on quality. Avoid being a slave to the mileage, particularly when accomplishing good quality training.

Avoid being a slave to the mileage.............100mpw..............enough said.

Krusty_Clown

Shell to Run wrote: »

Avoid being a slave to the mileage.............100mpw..............enough said.

Max out the mileage at 100 mpw. That's applying a limit, not committing to running 100 miles per week.

Shell to Run

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

Max out the mileage at 100 mpw. That's applying a limit, not committing to running 100 miles per week.

Cool not a mileage slave so:pac::pac:

Killerz

Nice to do the synopsis of the training block before the big race as opposed to after it, when so much can be lost in the elation/ disappointment of achieving/ not achieving the goal. Gives a much better picture of how it went.

Best of luck this weekend - no doubt you will ace it and I look forward to following your next steps - be they with or without a coach.

JK

AuldManKing

That's a super post.

You seem to have a set view of your future approach, even before you talk to a coach. Will you be looking for a coach that fits this view or are you open to being challenged on it?

I like you point about training focused on your weaknesses, I think that's something a few of us should reflect on.
Do you think your weaknesses this year are different to previous training blocks?

Best of luck this weekend, you seem in great shape (as always), looking fwd to another epic report.

Krusty_Clown

AuldManKing wrote: »

You seem to have a set view of your future approach, even before you talk to a coach. Will you be looking for a coach that fits this view or are you open to being challenged on it?

I'm not sure what there is to challenge. Focus on 5k for the first part of my season and focus on marathon for the second part. Those are my goals. I don't think anyone would argue with that, or try to re-prioritize my goals. 12 week marathon plan? Again, I don't think a coach would find fault with that, particularly for gentlemen as senior in our years as ourselves, where that kind of structure suits. The rest is from years of learning and experience and it's the kind of supporting data that I think a coach would need to help an individual form a plan. Probably different in the club/coach circuit, where you have to fit in with the general club plan and targeted races, but that environment isn't really for me.

AuldManKing wrote: »

Do you think your weaknesses this year are different to previous training blocks?

Subtly different, as my approach to the year was unique in contrast to other years. I developed the speed early in the year and then developed endurance later in the year, and missed out on the piece that links them both together; specifically speed-endurance. I think there was too much emphasis on tempo pace and easy pace, so I didn't have a range of gears to work through. Basically any faster running (closer to 5k pace) was completely abandoned, so I lost much of the sharpness that I had developed over the first 6 months of the year. Ideally, I think I should have maintained the faster stuff, while gradually incorporating it into the longer stuff, before finally increasing the focus on the specific stuff.

dna_leri

KC - Best of luck in Frankfurt.

Regarding future training plans and coaching, are you prepared to pay for on-line coaching?
If so I know some guys (age 40+ 2:40ish marathon) who have good things to say about their coach, if you are interested.

Krusty_Clown

dna_leri wrote: »

KC - Best of luck in Frankfurt.

Regarding future training plans and coaching, are you prepared to pay for on-line coaching?
If so I know some guys (age 40+ 2:40ish marathon) who have good things to say about their coach, if you are interested.

Absolutely. I'd consider any options. Would that be E.D.? Does he coach the lads online?

Krusty_Clown

Saturday: 7 miles easy
Sunday: 13 miles easy/steady
Monday: 8 miles easy w/strides
Tuesday: JDA: 10 miles including 4 x 1,200m w/2 mins easy
Wednesday: 7 miles easy

Ordinarily I dislike this stage of taper, as I get 'that feeling' of not having done enough and am torn between knocking out a few quick miles and trying to rest up. Each run is normally a random selection of fantasy niggles and worrisome sniffles, but this week, everything has gone really well. It's not been a restful low-stress week as it should have been, but has instead been full of business reviews, product demos, working past midnight, poor sleep and just to add a bit of spice, threatened pilot strikes. But despite all that, the runs have been good. Sunday was a nice 13 mile easy/steady run, and yesterday, hit the cinder for the last time for 4 x 1,200m @tempo.

The cinder has very much lost its appeal, but the wind was blowing a bit of a gale, so track loops seemed like the most logical choice. Once again, it was like tough 200s, followed by 200m recovery, with the back-straight taking the full brunt of the wind. I wasn't too bothered about paces, but given the shorter than usual reps, they were all pretty nippy, while remaining comfortable. Looking back on last year's activity, it's almost entirely identical, right down to the temperature and the wind. It's like life repeating itself. Fingers crossed that marathon pace is a little brisker this time around. Met beepbeep for a few easy chatty miles around my work-place today, and it was great to get away from the stresses of work for a stretch.

A few 30 minute runs (and potentially a pilot strike) are all that now lies between me and the race. Seems like a very, very long time since I last ran a marathon (probably my longest ever break from the distance), so I'm really excited about travelling and hitting the start line. 3 Days, 9 hours, 53 minutes...

PaulieC

Good luck on Sunday. We'll all be well jealous that you're done and dusted by midday while most of us are still looking ahead 24 hours

pointer28

Best of luck at the weekend!

With the savage amount of work you put in, you deserve a good race.