Send in the Clowns - BAC 10K Challenge

Krusty_Clown

Speedy44 wrote: »

Very nice pmp indeed there Krusty, its amazing how exercise is a great cure for a hangover! With 6:22 pace, I see your aiming for a sub 2:50 marathon.

Yep, the plan is to get just ahead of Abhainn's PB with a hangover. There's a story to tell the kids.

Just kidding. Plan is to go sub 2:50, but I'm training for a time of 2:48. If training continues to go well, I might try to go a little faster. I've never blown up in a marathon before (this'll be number 8 or 9), so maybe this time's the charm. If it's a very hot day in Berlin though, bets are off. I also have NYC in November as a fall-back option, if things get screwed up. What's your next marathon target Speedy? You must be eager to get the monkey off your back.

Speedy44

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

Yep, the plan is to get just ahead of Abhainn's PB with a hangover. There's a story to tell the kids.

Just kidding. Plan is to go sub 2:50, but I'm training for a time of 2:48. If training continues to go well, I might try to go a little faster. I've never blown up in a marathon before (this'll be number 8 or 9), so maybe this time's the charm. If it's a very hot day in Berlin though, bets are off. I also have NYC in November as a fall-back option, if things get screwed up. What's your next marathon target Speedy? You must be eager to get the monkey off your back.

Big time. I'm giving DCM a shot and if all goes according to plan want to do Boston (my 'home' marathon) next April. If I can stay injury free I'm confident I can get under the 3hrs. In fact I think I can go sub 2:55 comfortably but think I'll use Sosa's approach and just aim for the sub 3 first.

aero2k

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

Plan is to go sub 2:50, but I'm training for a time of 2:48. If training continues to go well, I might try to go a little faster.

I have a theory that no matter how fast you do your PMP training, on race day you can go a few sec / mile quicker. I was planning to try it in Edinburgh but the impending heat scared me off.

I've deferred entering another marathon until you've proved me right!:D (mods approve change of username from Krusty_Clown to Guinea_Pig)

Krusty_Clown

Longford '08 (1st Marathon), trained for 8min/mile, ran 7:48/mile
Berlin '09: Trained for 7:05/mile, ran 6:50/mile
Barcelona '10: Trained for 6:45, ran 6:35.
Not trying to blow my own trumpet, just saying that if you run comfortably, rather than running to the watch, you'll usually take a few minutes off of what you trained for (even if those minutes end up just making up for your poor race line, your quick pee up against a dumpster, or a couple of minutes of credit.

Krusty_Clown

Tonight: 5 mile recovery run
Nice and chilled run in the local park with some good tunes. Didn't notice the time ticking off, which is a good sign after yesterday's 16 miles.

Summary: 5 miles in 38 mins, @7:41/mile

seanynova

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

Longford '08 (1st Marathon), trained for 8min/mile, ran 7:48/mile
Berlin '09: Trained for 7:05/mile, ran 6:50/mile
Barcelona '10: Trained for 6:45, ran 6:35.
Not trying to blow my own trumpet, just saying that if you run comfortably, rather than running to the watch, you'll usually take a few minutes off of what you trained for (even if those minutes end up just making up for your poor race line, your quick pee up against a dumpster, or a couple of minutes of credit.

you talking PMP pace or where your interval, tempo, PMP, easy and recovery paces based on the "trained for" figures?
as in did you use something like mcmillan for a 2:59, 2:55 etc and work off those paces for your few months training?

Krusty_Clown

seanynova wrote: »

you talking PMP pace or where your interval, tempo, PMP, easy and recovery paces based on the "trained for" figures?
as in did you use something like mcmillan for a 2:59, 2:55 etc and work off those paces for your few months training?

I'm talking PMP, intervals, everything.

Krusty's dirty little secret:
I don't train to actual/present pace values, I train to desired pace. So if my session is to run 9 miles with 4@ half marathon pace, I go to McMillan and look at the equivalent pace for my desired marathon target. So, for example, for a desired marathon target of 2:48, the equivalent HMP is 6:05/mile. So I use that as my target for training.

Note: This is not a sensible way to train. I know that, and I accept it. The injury risk goes up exponentially as does the risk of blowing up on specific sessions. Many will scorn the use of McMillan for calculating equivalent paces, suggesting that racing those specific distances is a lot more sensible, or running based on VO2max / LT values. I am sure that these are far more sensible approaches.

I will say something in my defense though: While it looks like I follow a 12 week marathon program, the truth is that I follow a 18-20 week program, as I start with an 8-10 week 10k program, with gives me the speed stimulus, that makes all of the speed sessions more manageable.

RayCun

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

Note: This is not a sensible way to train. I know that, and I accept it. The injury risk goes up exponentially as does the risk of blowing up on specific sessions.

Eeep! That's how I'm training :eek:
But surely Planned Marathon Pace means the pace you plan to run at, not the pace you could run a marathon at today? And your tempo sessions etc work around that pace?

tisnotover

Just catching up with your log Krusty, I see your getting in the marathon-zone now, very nice PMP run there, your upto 10miles already at PMP !

Interesting to read about your net marathon pace and the pace you trained for.

Krusty_Clown

RayCun wrote: »

Eeep! That's how I'm training :eek:
But surely Planned Marathon Pace means the pace you plan to run at, not the pace you could run a marathon at today? And your tempo sessions etc work around that pace?

Sorry, you are correct. Planned Marathon pace is the pace you plan to run your race at. The other variables are supposed to be at current pace, e.g. 5K, 10k, 1/2 marathon etc. You see if you are heading off to do a Vo2 max session at 5K pace, your Vo2max wont suddenly have changed, just because you are aiming for a more aggressive target. That's why you run them at existing race pace. Of course I have only ever run one 5k race and that was a couple of years ago, and the same goes for the 1/2 marathon. I do think that I get a Vo2 max and LT improvement from running a solid 10k training program before the marathon program kicks off, and my heart rates during the marathon program generally show that. Of course I also use desired pace during my 10k training program, so that's where the hard work is really done!

Krusty_Clown

tisnotover wrote: »

Just catching up with your log Krusty, I see your getting in the marathon-zone now, very nice PMP run there, your upto 10miles already at PMP !

Interesting to read about your net marathon pace and the pace you trained for.

Yeah, it's a tough program, the P&D 12 week 70mpw (i'm running a slightly lower mileage adapted version). Week 1 is 8 miles @PMP. :eek: You really need to be in the right zone before you begin the training!

RayCun

Okay, I see what you mean. It strikes me as a bit odd, but not something I'll have to worry about until next year...

Speedy44

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

Yeah, it's a tough program, the P&D 12 week 70mpw (i'm running a slightly lower mileage adapted version). Week 1 is 8 miles @PMP. :eek: You really need to be in the right zone before you begin the training!

same program that I'm tacking Krusty. Starts next Monday for me. I am ramping up to it at the moment and should get about 55 under my belt this week. I was origionally going to do the 70-85ml program but due to not getting in enough of a base, I'll probably something between both programs.

Krusty_Clown

Speedy44 wrote: »

same program that I'm tacking Krusty. Starts next Monday for me. I am ramping up to it at the moment and should get about 55 under my belt this week. I was origionally going to do the 70-85ml program but due to not getting in enough of a base, I'll probably something between both programs.

Fair play to you. I just don't have that kind of training base or time (even to complete the full 70mpw program), so I have been dropping one easy run each week (8-10 miles). I'm currently on 50-55mpw, which three weeks into the program is a greater load than I am used to.

tisnotover

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

Yeah, it's a tough program, the P&D 12 week 70mpw (i'm running a slightly lower mileage adapted version). Week 1 is 8 miles @PMP. :eek: You really need to be in the right zone before you begin the training!

Definately i'd say ! :eek:

Your moving up levels again here Krusty with your target marathon-time. Great going to be at 55miles wk at this stage, you might have only peaked at that for some of your marathons! Best of luck with the training, I like the marathon logs!

Speedy44

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

Fair play to you. I just don't have that kind of training base or time (even to complete the full 70mpw program), so I have been dropping one easy run each week (8-10 miles). I'm currently on 50-55mpw, which three weeks into the program is a greater load than I am used to.

How come your already 3wks into the program, did I do my math wrong :eek:

Or is this where the 'adapted' part comes in ?

Krusty_Clown

Speedy44 wrote: »

How come your already 3wks into the program, did I do my math wrong :eek:

Or is this where the 'adapted' part comes in ?

You're right, it's actually week 4. I'm not very good at maths (or have a short term memory (I can never remember which one it is)). My target is Berlin in September, but I have also built in a redundant week into the schedule, for injury/illness/holidays.

aero2k

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

Longford '08 (1st Marathon), trained for 8min/mile, ran 7:48/mile
Berlin '09: Trained for 7:05/mile, ran 6:50/mile
Barcelona '10: Trained for 6:45, ran 6:35.
Not trying to blow my own trumpet, just saying that if you run comfortably, rather than running to the watch, you'll usually take a few minutes off of what you trained for (even if those minutes end up just making up for your poor race line, your quick pee up against a dumpster, or a couple of minutes of credit.

I thought the internet was invented for trumpet blowing!:)

I can't claim the same record as you, but for DCM '09 my longest PMP run had 8 miles at 6:52, and I struggled on every one of those. On race day I had to ease back several times when I was sub 6:40 and comfortable.

I think caution got the better of me in Edinburgh - I felt way too good immediately after and the next day. Still a good learning experience. (I had started out training with PMP at 6:40 and only did 2 runs at 6:30. Beat the 6.40 on race day handy enough, and it was warm.)

I'm currently using the Daniels approach to selecting tempo / Vo2 max training paces - I'll let you know in a few weeks how it goes.

I wouldn't worry too much about selecting desired rather than current marathon pace - that's exactly what I did for '09. Anyway, you have enough experience now to know when to back off if necessary.

Krusty_Clown

aero2k wrote: »

I can't claim the same record as you, but for DCM '09 my longest PMP run had 8 miles at 6:52, and I struggled on every one of those. On race day I had to ease back several times when I was sub 6:40 and comfortable.

I was a little disappointed with Barcelona too, as I felt a little too good after finishing the race, and felt that I could easily have pushed harder in the early part of the race. But when you look at the watch and realize that you're already running faster than PMP, throwing absolute caution to the wind in the first half of the race just isn't the right thing to do (for me). That's the exciting thing about the marathon. A significant portion of getting the race right, is down to strategy, particularly for those of us who tread the ability/performance line very closely.

aero2k

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

That's the exciting thing about the marathon. A significant portion of getting the race right, is down to strategy, particularly for those of us who tread the ability/performance line very closely.

+1^.

For DCM '09 I was glad of the early caution when I had a brief struggle around 23-24 miles.

For Edinburgh I regretted it. I just need to get the balance right....

tunguska

aero2k wrote: »

+1^.

For DCM '09 I was glad of the early caution when I had a brief struggle around 23-24 miles.

For Edinburgh I regretted it. I just need to get the balance right....

*hi-jacks krusty's log*

I knew you werent happy with Endinburgh. I wont patronise you but I will remind you of how warm it was that day. You kind of had to be cautious, the heat will destroy you during a marathon if you're not smart.
Spring is a good bit away and I know Endinburgh is annoying you, so maybe a reconsidering of Dublin is in order(some cyper arm twisting)............Tell you what, If you go under 60minutes for frank duffy then you run dublin, deal????

aero2k

tunguska wrote: »

*hi-jacks krusty's log*

I do it all the time - it's so much easier to find than my one!

tunguska wrote: »

Spring is a good bit away and I know Endinburgh is annoying you, so maybe a reconsidering of Dublin is in order(some cyper arm twisting)............Tell you what, If you go under 60minutes for frank duffy then you run dublin, deal????

Believe it or not, despite the fact I keep mentioning it, Edinburgh isn't really annoying me. If you'd pulled me aside at the finishline of DCM '08, or better still when I was hobbling down Foster's Ave, and told me that in 19 months time I'd run every step of a marathon, in 25 deg, and be almost half an hour faster, I'd have sent for the men with the white coats. I'm just looking at it coldly and rationally so I know what not to do next time.

The faster I run the 10 mile, the longer I'm likely to wait until I run my next marathon. The target will be adjusted downwards accordingly, and I'll be planning how to make it a reality.

(aero jogs off to see if Krusty will engage in a downwards rent review.:D)

Krusty_Clown

. What's the 'out-loud' target for the 10 mile, or are you not quite willing to put your cards on the table yet?

aero2k

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

. What's the 'out-loud' target for the 10 mile, or are you not quite willing to put your cards on the table yet?

Krusty, I'm crushed, I thought you sat by the PC all day and night waiting for another post from me!:) (or were you talking to tunguska who's kept his balls well away from the chopping block for some time now?)

As posted on the Frank Duffy thread, against my better judgement (RQ is a very bad influence!) 59:59.

I'd love a few more weeks, and I won't cry whatever the result, but I'll give it a lash. If you believe McMillan I need to lose about 1:40 based on my (adjusted) 5 mile time, however the course is a bit easier - same hills as the 5 plus 5 fast miles at the start.

Krusty_Clown

I tend to stay away from the threads where I'm not participating in the races. I have 100% confidence in your ability to hit sub-60. I think I could do it, and you're slightly faster than me. Don't make me a liar!

village runner

Your flying it. Hoping to do a a few pmp miles myself at the weekend. Wont be doing at that speed. Looks like i will be looming at your little ass for the first km any and prob see you at the finish line after that.

Krusty_Clown

village runner wrote: »

Your flying it. Hoping to do a a few pmp miles myself at the weekend. Wont be doing at that speed. Looks like i will be looming at your little ass for the first km any and prob see you at the finish line after that.

Thanks VR, but I have my doubts. I reckon I'll be chasing your Kilkenny GAA top around the roads of Berlin, 9 weeks from now!

Tonight: 9 Miles with 5@LT (Half marathon pace).
Really wasn't feeling the love today. Felt tired after Tuesday's 16 miles, so thought today's run might be a disaster waiting to happen. After a 2.5 mile warmup and a stretch, I hit the pace, aiming for 6:05/mile. After a mile I felt weak and starving. Not a good sign. After mile 2, I was thinking of calling it quits. 2.5 miles, I hit half way, and started to relax into the session. Still struggled to drop the pace back to 6:05, but was glad to be ticking off the miles, and keeping up the momentum. My PB for 5 miles is 32 minutes from a couple of years ago, so given I've run a couple of sub 30s in training, I'm keen to know what it would be now (29:59:44 tonight. Don't get much closer than that!).

LT: 5 miles @5:59, HR=156 (LT Zone??)

Didn't run to the prescribed 10 miles, cutting it short at 9 miles, as I ran an extra couple of miles this week.
Summary: 9 miles in 60 mins, @6:44/mile, HR=149

aero2k

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

.. and you're slightly faster than me. Don't make me a liar!

Not if your training paces are anything to go by!

Speedy44

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

You're right, it's actually week 4. I'm not very good at maths (or have a short term memory (I can never remember which one it is)). My target is Berlin in September, but I have also built in a redundant week into the schedule, for injury/illness/holidays.

aha, that explains it. Forgot it was Berlin you were doing and not Dublin.

Krusty_Clown

I struggled to think of a a tag-line for this post, but the above sums it up as best I can manage. Despite plenty of sage advice, my will was crumbling by the middle of the week. When jackyback posted on the Bogtrotter's thread offering a race number, the dirty deed was done. I got in touch with the organizers, asked if I could switch his number over, made a charity contribution to Bothair, and decided that if the achilles felt alright on Saturday morning, I'd enter the race as a training run. Sure the schedule called for a 20 and a 6 this weekend. What could possibly go wrong?!

Saturday morning, everything felt fine, so headed off to Strokestown with the OH, who was going to sign up for the half marathon. €50 is a bit steep, but like me, she had a similar type of running schedule this weekend, so it fit well. Lovely location for the start of the race, and it was very well organized. I could see that some of the big guns had turned up for a shot at the prize-money, so at least I knew a podium finish was out of the question, and I could take it nice and handy and minimize the damage.

Really enjoyed the first half of the race which I ran at a very comfortable pace, hitting the half-way mark in around 1:35. There was a bog section, but it was pretty firm under foot so not too bad. Long stretch on a national road, and the marshalls at the next two junctions informed me that I was in 5th or 6th place. Nice, I thought to myself. I'll continue at an nice easy LSR pace, finish in about 3:08, and get my highest finish place ever (even if it was a small field). As I ran on alone, except for a cyclist who I kept meeting repeatedly, it started to dawn on me that I hadn't seen a mile marker or a marshall in a while. I passed some of the walkers, and they assured me that I was heading in the right direction, but I was the first runner they had seen, and I was now in the lead. Uh-oh. Something's gone badly awry here.

I flagged down a passing car, and asked them had they seen any runners. Nope! Sh1t. Middle of no-where, 19 miles done, not a clue where I am, finish line getting further away. I ran on for a mile, before doubting myself and turning back. I found some discarded bottles at a cross-roads and figures some form of competitors had been through this direction, so I followed the trail of bottles until I met some of the walker-marshalls who directed me a couple of miles back onto the course.

Eventually I saw runners again, at which point I had a quick chat with a marshall who told me she has seen me missing the all-important right turn. Damn blast woman, this isn't an orienteering course. Why didn't you let me know?!

I hit the next mile marker. My watch said 22 miles, the signpost read 18 miles. Groan. Utter dejection. I decided to make the most of it and just keep going at a nice comfortable pace. Ran a stretch with Aimman, before pushing on. Chatted with most of the other runners as I passed, trying to make the most out of a bad day. The second bog section was a dreadful surface, and I really felt for the front runners who must have been wondering what the hell they got themselves into. Saw the watch tick off 26.2 miles, in a time of around 3:10, which gave me some comfort, as it's nice to be able to hit that kind of time at a very relaxed pace. A few more hills and a few more runners, and I was on the home stretch. Muscles were a little tired at this stage, but still the effort levels were very comfortable.

The finish line announcer must have seen the look on my face, as he didn't come across to me for a 'chat'. Still, it was nice to hook up with the other boards guys afterwards, and have a bit of a laugh over it. I finished the 30.54 miles (behind Oisin!) in a time of 3:45:01. Bogtrotters, it was kind of fun, but I won't be back! I'm trying to find a positive note, from this whole experience, but I'm struggling. Two things come to mind: I've unintentionally hit my highest ever mileage, at 61 miles for the week, and my ultra-training seems to be going well.

Summary: 30.54 miles, @7:22 pace, HR=146