Why US supports Israel?

Yummydaddy

Hi long term reader first time poster.

Just finished reading 'The Israel Lobby and U.S. Foreign Policy'
by John Mearsheimer and Stephen Walt.

Very interesting and controversial book. Essentially their argument is that the Israeli Lobby in Washington has got so powerful that it has influenced the US government in such a way that the US government has done things that is not even in America's interest. Such as the invasion of Iraq.

The US supports Israel in every international forum no matter what it does. Also it gives the most amount of aid to Israel 3 billion a year...WHY?

Now the book is packed full of data- however I remained unconvinced by their argument. Yes the Israeli Lobby is powerful, but I just can't believe its so powerful that it actually makes the US president do things that are not in America's interests.

So the question remains- why does the US so support Israel?

Can't be about oil, there is none in Israel. Support for Israel wins the US nothing but hatred in the Middle East. The US already has allies out there, why need more?

Now I am not asking about the relative merits of the Palestine-Israel conflict that is different issue- but just about why the US supports Israel unconditionally.


PS. Before the anti-Semites get typing I don't want to hear anything about a world Jewish conspiracy...keep that rubbish to yourself. Anyway some of the biggest supporters of Israel in US are actually Christian Zionists which is mad really

the_syco

They are an ally that won't change. Look at America's other "allies" in the ME, and some are only allies as long as the current leader stays in charge.

Darragh29

Very interesting question OP, I often wondered myself what the attraction was. I suppose Israel is the only democratic country in that region...

kraggy

Darragh29 wrote: »

Very interesting question OP, I often wondered myself what the attraction was. I suppose Israel is the only democratic country in that region...

Lebanon is next door to Israel and it's a democracy.

the_syco

kraggy wrote: »

Lebanon is next door to Israel and it's a democracy.

Aren't there Irish has peacekeepers in there? Hardly all that stable then?

marcsignal

I've always found the question an interesting one too OP, and I've also read that book.
A Documentary based on that book can be viewed Here.

Norman G. Finkelstein has written a few books relating to the subject that make equally interesting reading.

Sadly, it would seem that any potential Presidential candidate who does not clearly express his/her full and unequivical support for Israel will not be elected, simple as that.

Jari

Darragh29 wrote: »

Very interesting question OP, I often wondered myself what the attraction was. I suppose Israel is the only democratic country in that region...

only democratic country in that region is only rubbish i think becoz all presidents are Anglican and they believes if the Israel has state Jesus will return

Serenity Now!

kraggy wrote: »

Lebanon is next door to Israel and it's a democracy.

Its been on the verge of another civil war for the past few years. Not exactly a shining beacon of democracy.

Yummydaddy

The 'only democracy in the M East' argument can't be the principal reason for US support either

Leave aside whether Israel is a great beacon of democracy (not the subject of the thread)...but the US has allies that are very very far away from democracies...and also with democracies and monarchies, and dictatorships etc etc.

I think the US like all other nations makes alliances not principally out of ideology but because of self interest.............................................so what I am trying to understand is what is the self interest for the US in supporting Israel?

the full support will continue whether McCain or Obama wins....its probably the one constant in US policy...I think it's hard to work out and I have just read a 400 page book about it!!:eek:

Serenity Now!

the_syco wrote: »

They are an ally that won't change. Look at America's other "allies" in the ME, and some are only allies as long as the current leader stays in charge.

The US supports it because it has been strategic in every US administration's foreign policy since the advent of the Cold War.
There is a Jewish vote in the States but the moderates outnumber the neo-cons hence the support for the Democratic party rather than the GOP.

I read the book you mention myself. Was a little disappointed and unconvinced too. There's a great review of it in Foreign Affairs bi-monthly and another in The Economist. I cant be arsed digging them out so you'll have to look for yourself if you want to read them.
Edit: here you go for the Foreign Affairs review: http://www.foreignaffairs.org/20071101fareviewessay86611/walter-russell-mead/jerusalem-syndrome.html

Many reasons for the support but I think myself that the country's strategic value and party dependency on electoral demographs are the main factors.

Nodin

Yummydaddy wrote: »

So the question remains- why does the US so support Israel?

Their interests coincide. When Iraq had been invaded, and before the insurgency took off, there was a feeling amongst Israel that their usefulness was coming to an end, hence Sharons move to unilaterally finalise borders, starting with the pull out from Gaza, and the increased activity in Arab East Jerusalem and the West Bank.

Thats not to say that there isn't a strong Israeli lobby, but it can only guide the horse to water...it has to want a drink.

luckyfrank

You dont see the israelis flying planes into skyscrappers do you ?

Israel is on the frontline so the speak in the east vs west clash of cultures

Israelis have more in common with the west than arabs/muslims

Same reason why the US supported the UK in both world wars they have common interests/common ideals

There are a number of reasons the US supports Israel.......:pac::pac:

The US gains much by its close relationship with Israel, the Israeli army acts as a rapid response force to protect US interests in the Middle East; it also serves as a huge market for the US arms industry.

Pressure from the Israel lobby is another major reason for US support. The lobbyists are not just American Jews but also many conservatives, sympathetic liberals and people involved in the arms industry and other businesses (multimedia). Some Americans (both liberals and conservatives) belief Israel can be a springboard for democracy in the middle East.:eek:

Some Christian fundamentalists in America also see supporting Israel as part of a greater crusade against the Muslim world..........

And of course sympathy for the Jews because of the Holocaust.....


NOTE - It is debatable whether Israel is a democracy or not.... Ethnic democracy might be a more accurate description.:pac::pac::pac::pac:

marcsignal

luckyfrank wrote: »

You dont see the israelis flying planes into skyscrappers do you ?

off topic i know, and you're right, you dont see the israelis flying planes into skyscrapers, but it's interesting to note, that 6 of the Arab Muslims that are supposed to have carried out these attacks are still alive.

Abdularir al-Omari whose passport was miraciliously found in the WTC rubble after the attack stood up on 23/09/01 and said

"I couldn't believe it when the FBI put me on their list. They gave my name and date of birth, but I am not a suicide bomber, I am here, I am alive, and I have no idea how to fly a plane"

The FBI have still not revised that list, so IMO the jury is still out on who did it..

back on topic

brianthebard

the_syco wrote: »

Aren't there Irish has peacekeepers in there? Hardly all that stable then?

And Israel is? The relationship between Israel and the US goes back before the creation of the modern state of Israel, its bound up in the history of Zionism and US politics of the nineteenth century. Zionism isn't an exclusively Jewish concept, there were/is many people in the states who believe(d) the Jewish people deserved to live in the holy land. To that end groups in the US encouraged emigration to mandate Palestine in the 1930s.

marcsignal

brianthebard wrote: »

The relationship between Israel and the US goes back before the creation of the modern state of Israel, its bound up in the history of Zionism and US politics of the nineteenth century. Zionism isn't an exclusively Jewish concept, there were/is many people in the states who believe(d) the Jewish people deserved to live in the holy land. To that end groups in the US encouraged emigration to mandate Palestine in the 1930s.

True, here's a link to another book review alluding to that.

http://www.baltimorechronicle.com/2008/101608Lendman.shtml

TOMASJ

Money,
if the US can keep the Israelis and the Muslim world at others throats and have a boogeyman country every few years "take you pick of the country's Israel has been at war with" in that region,
Who supplies the weapons to all concerned the US. That 3 billion wouldn't go far in the purchase of armaments.

Fratton Fred

TOMASJ wrote: »

Money,
if the US can keep the Israelis and the Muslim world at others throats and have a boogeyman country every few years "take you pick of the country's Israel has been at war with" in that region,
Who supplies the weapons to all concerned the US. That 3 billion wouldn't go far in the purchase of armaments.

I've no idea about the finances, but I'd say the US are out of pocket supporting Israel. Don't they give them billions a year in aid?

TOMASJ

Fratton Fred wrote: »

I've no idea about the finances, but I'd say the US are out of pocket supporting Israel. Don't they give them billions a year in aid?

yes apparently 3 billion every year in aid " only a drop in the ocean as to what is spent on weapons purchased from the US,
armaments are one of the US biggest earners.

Gu3rr1lla

luckyfrank wrote: »

You dont see the israelis flying planes into skyscrappers do you ?

Research the USS Liberty ship

Nodin

luckyfrank wrote: »

You dont see the israelis flying planes into skyscrappers do you ?

They've a first world military. Why would they?

luckyfrank wrote: »

Israel is on the frontline so the speak in the east vs west clash of cultures

Israelis have more in common with the west than arabs/muslims

You'll find most of the West is no longer particularily in favour of the whole idea of colonising outside national borders.......

luckyfrank wrote: »

Same reason why the US supported the UK in both world wars they have common interests/common ideals

...more akin to the same way they supported Augusto Pinochet, really.

wes

While Israel doesn't have any oil, a lot of other nations in the ME do. Keeping those nations in perpetual conflict, means that they will never be strong enough to stand up to the US and therefore it makes controlling the regions oil resources that much easier.

Also, the US sells billions in arms to the other states in the ME, which I am sure more than make up for what they give Israel.

The US has also been using the Iranian boogey man to scare the Arab/Sunni majority states into buying even more weapons as well. Remember during the Iran/Iraq war the US supplied both sides with weapons to kill each other with. There support for Israel is a part of a broader strategy to control the regions resources.

There is also, a religous element with some of the far right end time fundamentalist Christian groups, but I think there just more bark than bite and if the Republicans lose the current US election, there power will be diminished a great deal.

wyk

This is an interesting article that helps explain the US public support for Israel in America to some degree:

http://www.boston.com/news/globe/editorial_opinion/oped/articles/2006/03/29/a_nation_like_ours/

Do not underestimate the strength of the Israeli lobby. They have several groups, and all have a lot of influence. Many are very specialized as well. Some concentrate on politics, some on monetary support, some on military support etc.

Military and Oil:

Having a modern military base that acts on behalf of America, yet without the necessity of actual direct management from American shores is beneficial for control in the middle east as well. Until America needs no oil, one of their main goals is to exert as much control over the middle east as possible. How much this cost the tax payers in the US is not as much of a concern as some would think. $3bill is barely on the radar of a nearly $3 TRILLION annual budget. The US department of Defense itself has a nearly $500 billion budget(at least, overtly). The EU combined is roughly 300 billion. Spending less than 1% of that to effectively have a huge advanced military base in the middle east is an absolute bargain.

It's slowly coming together...Georgia, Iraq, Afganistan, Jordan, Israel...look at the map. Some argue the unrest caused by the US flexing it's muscles in the middle east also serve to advance the US interests politically and militarily. Eventually each of these will have a large US military presence if they don't already do.

Stability in the middle east, by American government standards, is not necessarily the lack of war - but how much control the US have in the area. Destabilizing countries that are not pro US, and positioning the US so that it could, if necessary, commandeer the oil it needs via force, and the ability to use military force to defend current interest, is all part of the process.

Israel is a nation with a shoreline. Though not absolutely necessary, Israel's location makes potentially serious military action in the middle east just that much less of a headache. You can pretty much wager that there is at least one US attack and one US missile sub in the region just off Israel's shore at any given time. This is in addition to the 33 or so US Naval vessels currently in the Mediterranean Sea(at least reported by the US Navy).

In fact, the US have a designation for their Mediterranean presence, it's called the "Sixth fleet" AKA European Fleet. When Europe criticizes Russia, and the middle East, and votes to sanction or otherwise censure, they do so well aware that there are up to 40 US Naval vessels between them at any given time in addition to the European navies. The 6th fleet is often reinforced with another Carrier strike group during times of increased military activity(such as the 'war' in Iraq). This can add an additional 20+ ships to the region, one of which being a Nimitz class carrier with an effective range of about 1,600 miles+ between it's aircraft and cruise missiles.


Israel is a competent nation when it comes to their military and their intelligence. Some argue the intelligence the Israelis gather alone is worth the a big chunk of that $3bil a year they get. They are incessantly spying on their neighbors, and they understand their politics and their behavior in a way that the average elected US official can not fathom.

Eventually the resources in the middle east will dry up and the US can go to tapping more of it's own reserves, if it hasn't found something elsewhere already.

A quick note on Iraq, et al:

While participating in wars costs the US tax payers money, it benefits US companies. It is the standard corporate welfare the US practices. Much of the billions of dollars spent so far in and around Iraq have been spread around to US companies. War is business, folks.

Are these all the reasons? Of course not. But it seems to show there's more to Israel than just politics and religion.

WYK

marcsignal

Good Post WYK

brianthebard

Nodin wrote: »

You'll find most of the West is no longer particularily in favour of the whole idea of colonising outside national borders.......

Perhaps, but neo colonialism is still going strong.

wes wrote: »

While Israel doesn't have any oil, a lot of other nations in the ME do. Keeping those nations in perpetual conflict, means that they will never be strong enough to stand up to the US and therefore it makes controlling the regions oil resources that much easier.

Do you know what a cartel is?

There is also, a religous element with some of the far right end time fundamentalist Christian groups, but I think there just more bark than bite and if the Republicans lose the current US election, there power will be diminished a great deal.

Fundamentalist Christian groups exist across the whole "spectrum" of US politics, and can't be ignored by either party. It would be foolish of a such groups to focus their efforts in such a way as to not have any influence of one party was in government rather than the other. That is why lobby groups are so strong in general, they aren't dependent on being in power, only using those who are.

wes

brianthebard wrote: »

Do you know what a cartel is?

I do, but The US has the Saudi's in there pocket.

brianthebard wrote: »

Fundamentalist Christian groups exist across the whole "spectrum" of US politics, and can't be ignored by either party. It would be foolish of a such groups to focus their efforts in such a way as to not have any influence of one party was in government rather than the other. That is why lobby groups are so strong in general, they aren't dependent on being in power, only using those who are.

True.

marcsignal

brianthebard wrote: »

Fundamentalist Christian groups exist across the whole "spectrum" of US politics, and can't be ignored by either party. It would be foolish of a such groups to focus their efforts in such a way as to not have any influence of one party was in government rather than the other. That is why lobby groups are so strong in general, they aren't dependent on being in power, only using those who are.

Being an Athiest I find it particularlly disturbing that any lobby groups based on religion can have such influence over American, and hence World affairs. The idea that policy can be moulded on the basis of 'the will of God'*, or that land, for example, can be claimed by any particular group of people, on the basis that it has been promised to them by God* is frightning to say the very least.

*An invisible man that lives up in the sky and watches everything you do.

Serenity Now!

wes wrote: »

The US has the Saudi's in there pocket

Other way round.

Serenity Now!

Nodin wrote: »

You'll find most of the West is no longer particularily in favour of the whole idea of colonising outside national borders.......

Only today, the Israeli govt cut off support to settlers who keep expanding. A tad late to say the least but its got to start somewhere.

Nodin wrote: »

...more akin to the same way they supported Augusto Pinochet, really.

They havent placed any leaders in charge of Israel via coup or otherwise so I dont think its the same as Chile, Honduras, Haiti, Panama or Nicaragua.

Israel due to lack of non-secular support for the current govt in a coalition will have to go back and run elections next february. An already shaky coalition looks doomed, in my opinion and Likud could be back in power. Not good news. Livni has refused to pledge that her party will exclude Jerusalem in negotiations with Palestinians for one.
Dont be surprised if Lebanon tries their luck at the border north either, after the elections. Nothing will happen before as they would risk unifying Israeli political parties.

I can't see the situation ever being solved. It just keeps going round and round.

Serenity Now!

marcsignal wrote: »

Being an Athiest I find it particularlly disturbing that any lobby groups based on religion can have such influence over American

Not necessarily based on religion. Jews are a semitic race.
The Irish have a huge lobby in the States. There is a large African American lobby in Washington. Hispanic too. The NRA have their own lobby groups. The corporate sector has many lobby avenues in Washington and can be argued to be bigger than any other lobby groups around.

Bottle_of_Smoke

Serenity Now! wrote: »

Not necessarily based on religion. Jews are a semitic race.
The Irish have a huge lobby in the States. There is a large African American lobby in Washington. Hispanic too. The NRA have their own lobby groups. The corporate sector has many lobby avenues in Washington and can be argued to be bigger than any other lobby groups around.

Think he was referring to the Christian fundie lobby