To convert or not to convert??? How do you know?

Schuhart

Agathon wrote: »

I don't know if these people are actually trying to find answers or just attacking for the fun of it?!

To be honest, I haven't a clue why I'm posting here either.

But I'm pretty certain I'm not seeking answers. Its more that I'm expressing concern at what you seem to think constitutes an answer.

Agathon wrote: »

Your assumptions and research lead to your world view.

Jean Paul Sartre couldn't have put it better. Clearly we agree that reality is partly something we create in our heads.

Agathon wrote: »

No matter how much you try to explain things to you idiots it seems like you just keep bringing more questions from your atheist web sites.

Speaking for myself, what actually happens is I post reasonable material providing answers to your question. I then wonder who you think you are fooling when you respond as if that material did not exist.

Agathon wrote: »

I've finished arguing here. good luck!!

Finally, you stop digging.

Agathon wrote: »

Jannah, the best example of Islam is in the people (travel to the Muslim lands) and take your time making up your mind.

In fairness, here you actually do talk sense. What's important is how and with whom a person feels they can live. Jannah's mother doesn't have to lead Jannah's life. Jannah does. If Jannah finds the people currently around her don't gell with her, indeed she should search further. If she find a community who share her outlook, then why not join up with them? You'd be mad to spend your life with people you just don't want to be with.

The only rational advice is exactly what you've just said. Just as with any major decision, do your due diligence. That has more to do with getting to know the people you think you might be more at home with than reading whatever random holy book they happen to be reading.

ChocolateSauce

Agathon, I've spoken strongly against religion and Mohammad, but I have not attacked Muslims or yourself because I believe in showing respect to people with whom I disagree. You lower yourself by hurling insults at us.

merrionsq

Agathon wrote: »

It's amazing how much people hate religion. I've got about 5 atheists ganging up on me here from freedomfighters.com or whatever web site they're on mission from. I don't know if these people are actually trying to find answers or just attacking for the fun of it?!

The Islamic System is actually too complex for simple-minded atheists.

I'm not an atheist. Your presumptuous intolerance speaks volumes about yourself. And gives a bad name to beliefs you promote.

Is it not an interesting comparison between those who join a religion and those who try to leave it? Then also compare it to how this occurs in other religions. This would certainly be of interest to me if I ever was changing my beliefs.

CerebralCortex

Agathon wrote: »

It's amazing how much people hate religion. I've got about 5 atheists ganging up on me here from freedomfighters.com or whatever web site they're on mission from. I don't know if these people are actually trying to find answers or just attacking for the fun of it?!

The Islamic System is actually too complex for simple-minded atheists. You have to study it properly from the basics. If you don't understand the basic concept of a Creator, then why go onto other subjects which are way above your heads. Your assumptions and research lead to your world view. It's good to see that you've found a great world view (without the slightest bit of evidence) but every man for himself. No matter how much you try to explain things to you idiots it seems like you just keep bringing more questions from your atheist web sites. I've finished arguing here. good luck!! Jannah, the best example of Islam is in the people (travel to the Muslim lands) and take your time making up your mind.

I'm not simple minded or an idiot.

oceanclub

Agathon wrote: »

I wonder how many centuries that book will last?!??

Umm, if longevity is a sign of truth, then why aren't you Hindu?

P.

Jannah

aliqueenb wrote: »

oh god why would anyone
stonings
women no rights
my brain hurts too much when i think about it im sorry seems ludicrous

Obviously too much watching the media and too little reading unbiased books

Agathon wrote: »

That's the stupidest thing you could say to somebody. It's like me waffling my views and saying, I'll give you twelve months to think about it and revert to Islam or else I'm right and you're wrong!!

You're right- it was a pretty stupid prediction for that dude to make- not in that he may/may not be right, but for the fact that he was so pompous as to believe that he knows better than me in how I choose to live my life. But really, I wouldn't give his stupidity too much thought- let him delude himself with his own self importance

ironingbored

Jannah wrote: »

Obviously too much watching the media and too little reading unbiased books

Yeah, like the quran and the bible!

Schuhart

Jannah wrote: »

You're right- it was a pretty stupid prediction for that dude to make- not in that he may/may not be right, but for the fact that he was so pompous as to believe that he knows better than me in how I choose to live my life.

In fairness, I think this is a little confused. A valid prediction is a valid prediction. Sorry about that, but what you are saying amounts to 'he's right, but I wish he hadn't had the bad grace to actually say it'.

Jannah wrote: »

But really, I wouldn't give his stupidity too much thought- let him delude himself with his own self importance

Can I just take a little reality check here. As far as I'm concerned, I'm only here because my parents did the needful on a particular night. If they hadn't, this post would not be here.

On the other hand, while I expect its mostly for practical reasons, you are choosing which absolute belief system to adopt. Whatever absolute belief system you subscribe to finally will undoubtedly condemn all kinds of perfectly innocent folk for perfectly harmless stuff, while assuring you your presence here was pre-ordained by some being for infinite wisdom and whatever.

Does any of that matter before chucking about statements about self importance? There are none so blind, I would guess.

I'm not self-important. Just ocassionally riled. Which is why I'll point out that, unlike the so-called miracles in the Quran, my prediction was clear and falsifiable.

Jannah

Schuhart wrote: »

In fairness, I think this is a little confused. A valid prediction is a valid prediction. Sorry about that, but what you are saying amounts to 'he's right, but I wish he hadn't had the bad grace to actually say it'.

Excuse me, am I a Muslim? No. Therefore your prediction was wrong and you are not right, but ignorant and yes, full of your own self importance.

Schuhart wrote: »

Can I just take a little reality check here. As far as I'm concerned, I'm only here because my parents did the needful on a particular night. If they hadn't, this post would not be here.

On the other hand, while I expect its mostly for practical reasons, you are choosing which absolute belief system to adopt. Whatever absolute belief system you subscribe to finally will undoubtedly condemn all kinds of perfectly innocent folk for perfectly harmless stuff, while assuring you your presence here was pre-ordained by some being for infinite wisdom and whatever.

Does any of that matter before chucking about statements about self importance? There are none so blind, I would guess.

I'm not self-important. Just ocassionally riled. Which is why I'll point out that, unlike the so-called miracles in the Quran, my prediction was clear and falsifiable.

Actually, before you begin to revel in your own infinite wisedom once again (snore... :rolleyes:) I would like you to know that I am currently looking into humanism- not for your sake, but for mine. Therefore, I highly doubt that I'll be 'condemning' anyone but you for your obvious stupidity and superiority complex

Schuhart

Jannah wrote: »

Excuse me, am I a Muslim? No. Therefore your prediction was wrong and you are not right, but ignorant and yes, full of your own self importance.

I said I'd give you twelve months from last May. So the clock is still ticking. Whatever way it works out, looking at where we are now, I say my prediction couldn't be dismissed as far fetched speculations on a ridiculiously small amount of information.

Can I also assure you of my complete lack of amour propre in all of this. As I said, if you're agnostic at the end of that period, my reasoning skills will be demonstrated to have made a considerable error. In other words, I'm perfectly open to the contention that I'm full of it.

Jannah wrote: »

Actually, before you begin to revel in your own infinite wisedom once again (snore... :rolleyes:) I would like you to know that I am currently looking into humanism- not for your sake, but for mine. Therefore, I highly doubt that I'll be 'condemning' anyone but you for your obvious stupidity and superiority complex

My work here is done.

getz

the only words god wrote are the 10 commandments and the belshazzers writing on the wall-every thing else has been written by man-if one wants to believe in religion-jesus is supposed to have said --[gods house has many doors]-i will always respect a person from the salvation army far more than any priest /vicar/monk or any islamic teacher at least they go out and help those who need it

Hobbes

Seems to have to read threads more often as some people are not quite clear on what this forum is about.

1. If you have a beef with Islam/Muslims this forum is not for you. Try another one.
2. If you feel that your religion is better then Islam and you feel the need to say it, this forum is not you.
3. The rule is attack the post and not the poster (regardless of what religion you are or lack there of).

If you have genuine questions then it is the forum to use.

I've had to hand out warnings/infractions and a ban. I really do not like doing this. So be a bit more civil to each other and if you don't agree with the answer at least try to live with the fact that not everyone will think the same way you do. If you feel someone is misbehaving use the report post rather then escalating the issue. Thanks.

Yusuf Mirza

Assalam alaikum.

Hay take it from an Irish Muslim who converted. It is the right thing to do to become Muslim. Islam is a wonderfull religion that gives you a personal relationship with Allah.

Yusuf - alway

af_thefragile

Sorry didn't read the whole thread but here's my take on your question.

I think you need to first get yourself completely clear about the concept of islam and understand it properly. The concept that there's only one god and Mohammed is his messenger. And then understand the whole concept of the point of life in Islam. These are the core understandings of Islam.

There's not much to it but if you really want to understand it, you'll find there's a lot to understand. From the whole scientific approach to life and the universe to the more deep theological ideas from our existence to the illusion of matter and materialism to the God himself.

Once you start to get a better understanding of the ideas and concept of Islam you'll start to notice its the most straightforward religion in the whole world. Infact you'll realise its not a religion at all. Its just the way of life that will keep you the most out of trouble for your own good! Its a set of rules, its a guidebook to this universe (as mentioned in the Quran if you can find the right verse!).

This is all you need to know about Islam. Don't get distracted by all the worldly worries of women rights, child custody, jihad, circumcision etc. Cuz you really don't have to worry about all that once you can truly establish your existence. You'll never know when to convert. You'll just know that you've converted.






Now if you feel my words are little more than vague ramblings, here to go a little deeper for you to ponder over:

Islam is the set of rules that if truly followed by everyone on this planet, there would be no wars, no killing, no injustice or evil. Everyone will be equally rich and happy while we could together explore unlimited space both inside and outside forever.
Every rule from not consuming alcohol to giving obligatory zakat (charity) to free interest banking.
If every person in the world gave zakat every year like in the islamic way, there would be no poverty in Africa, there would be no poverty in the whole world. This is the easiest way to make poverty history only if Bono and Geldof would have come across it.
If all banks in the world would abolish the interest banking system and would shift to the "islamic" non interest banking system, we wouldn't be seeing this economic crisis. Countries wouldn't be in major debt and again there would be a lot more money and wealth among people that everyone could live happily.


People blame religion for all the violence and killing in the world. I blame people's lack of religion and faith the cause of all violence and killing in the world. Religion is what keeps people away from causing violence, injustice and evil. Religion is what binds people to their true purpose of this life.

Islam speaks more about these world issues than any other religion you'll come across. Islam is also the religion that makes the most scientific and factual sense. Everything form the Big bang (mentioned in the Quran) to how Iron came from the skies and sank to the bottom of the earth (as mentioned in the Quran and if you find out this is a very accurate description of the formation of earth and how Iron sank into the core of the planet creating the earth's magnetic field) to how embryos develop in the human uterus to things like positive thing, the "law of attraction" thing, psychology of men and women and many many other things. Its all in the Quran if you can find the right verses.

Only if you can open your mind's eye and look around. Not getting blinded by the shimmering bright city lights which block out the reality in front of you. Reality many people overlook and get indulged in believing what they see is all that is real rejecting God, whereas nothing in this world can truly be stated as real. All they can reject is models of God but not God itself. God is something that can neither be fully understood or explained. Neither can God be proved through science as our scientific knowledge is only confined to our universe and God doesn't belong to our universe but the universe belongs to God.

Think of God as being the ultimate power/force outside of the universe that caused the creation of the Big Bang where all the matter in this whole universe was created from nothing (Just like God mentions in the Quran, both about the big band and how he can create something from nothing in an instant). All the laws of physics were created the instant after the big bang which led to the formation of the universe the way it is right now. So if we try to find a proof of God by scientific means, our science can only take us as far back as the instant after the Big Bang when the rules of physics were formed. And if you go a little deeper into the physics itself, Physics is just the name we've given to all the rules and equations the universe functions by. Laplace's Demon explains it quite well actually though i believe he came very close to getting it right but didn't quite go any further with it.
This is what Laplace's Demon suggests:

"We may regard the present state of the universe as the effect of its past and the cause of its future. An intellect which at a certain moment would know all forces that set nature in motion, and all positions of all items of which nature is composed, if this intellect were also vast enough to submit these data to analysis, it would embrace in a single formula the movements of the greatest bodies of the universe and those of the tiniest atom; for such an intellect nothing would be uncertain and the future just like the past would be present before its eyes"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laplace's_demon

Well, if you think about how a single formula could govern every action in the universe and that would leave past and present as just an illusion. The way God mentioned in the Quran how he has complete knowledge of you, your past and your future. He can tell what's in your heart even before you can get aware of it yourself. Also how God tells what would happen in the future. It all wouldn't be possible if the universe was random. But its not. Its tightly bound by a set of rules and equations. Who made all these rules and equations? And if someone made all these rules and equations (surely they came from somewhere as they didn't exist before the big bang), then could he not have complete knowledge about how those rules and equations will come into effect. Surely God is the all knowing (wasn't it mentioned in the quran?).

So you see how everything starts to make sense when you see things (like science) from the way mentioned in the Quran. Everything fits in together perfects and thats cuz everything is perfect (as mentioned in the quran). The universe and everything in it is not random. It can't be random cuz if it were the universe couldn't be able to sustain itself. God sustains the universe and everything in it (as mentioned in the quran).
And this is how you prove God through science and religion.
And i could go on about this all day!


To end. Its very easy to get carried away by all these worldly worries nit picking on issues that wouldn't directly concern you, by majoring on minor things. This will only distract you from your cause. Understand and believe in the cause, the rest will happen itself. All you've got to do is believe. All matter is nothing but an illusion and it blurs out the reality. There's a very good quote in the Quran where God says the non-believers have been made deaf, dumb and blind by God and they'll never be able to seek the truth.
This is very true with most of the world if you see. This is what happens when you indulge yourself in matter. In the materialism of the world. You'll get blinded by it and you'll not be able to see the true reality. God takes away the light from the people who do not believe (a verse in the quran).
People say the quran is not comprehensible or its just a book full of metaphors. God has stated he made the quran easy to read and understand. Its all upto how you go about reading and understanding it. You can see the true light or you can get blinded by the bright city lights!!


Here are a couple of books i'll highly recommend you read:
http://us2.harunyahya.com/Detail/T/EDCRFV/productId/998/THE_QUR’AN_LEADS_THE_WAY_TO_SCIENCE
http://us2.harunyahya.com/Detail/T/EDCRFV/productId/951/TAKING_THE_QUR’AN_AS_A_GUIDE
http://us2.harunyahya.com/Detail/T/EDCRFV/productId/993/THE_OTHER_NAME_FOR_ILLUSION:MATTER

You can download the books as pdf for free from the links and i highly recommend you to read them in your pursuit of truth.
Also recommend you to read his other books to, they're all very enlightening.

Good Luck!

DinoBot

af_thefragile wrote: »

There's not much to it but if you really want to understand it, you'll find there's a lot to understand.

I love your thinking here, "not much....but, there's a lot to understand which is it ?

af_thefragile wrote: »

This is all you need to know about Islam. Don't get distracted by all the worldly worries of women rights, child custody, jihad, circumcision etc. Cuz you really don't have to worry about all that once you can truly establish your existence. You'll never know when to convert. You'll just know that you've converted.

Your right ! Why the hell do people get so distracted with things like womens rights, child custody and jihad. Leave that to god I say :rolleyes::rolleyes:
Are you for real ??

af_thefragile wrote: »

Islam is the set of rules that if truly followed by everyone on this planet, there would be no wars, no killing, no injustice or evil. Everyone will be equally rich and happy while we could together explore unlimited space both inside and outside forever.

But then your logic makes sence:"if truly followed by everyone"
And there was me thinking the world was not only for muslims , stupid me :rolleyes:

Is that not the whole reason of conflict, people do NOT agree with each other on every point. The way to resolve conflict is not to ensure everyone converts to the same religion but to foster an understanding of respect for difference.

And you also speak of Islam as if its one big happy family, which version of Islam would enable us to to live with "no wars, no killing, no injustice or evil"

-sunni ?
-shia?
-Wahhabism ?
-Sufism ?

If all of these forms cant even live in peace with each other and they all clam to follow Islam, what hope does the world have ?
Or are they getting distracted by worldly worries !!!



D

af_thefragile

That post was directed towards the OP. Not you.


For you.
Well, there's only one form of Islam.
I can't tell whether its sunni or shia or wahabi or something else but its the one that is mentioned in the Quran and followed by Mohammed.
I don't know what exactly caused people to create these diversions but its something common with every religion.

And yes the reason of conflict is people not agreeing with one another. My point was if everyone just followed one set of guidelines, there wouldn't be any conflict in this world which is something that maybe you could agree with. Its only a hypothetical situation, i agree.

Part from all the as i stated the post was directed towards the OP. If one can get clear about one's own actions and purpose, then he wouldn't have to worry about the little distractions.
Like Hannah Moore said "Obstacles are those frightful things you see when you get your eyes off your goal".
People constantly keep getting themselves caught up and start majoring on minor things while they keep forgetting about the bigger and more fundamental goal.

Stop worrying about world peace while you fail to find peace within yourself!
Conflict is a property of this world. People have been in conflict ever since they walked these lands and will remain in conflict till the end of time.

Yusuf Mirza

That is correct. There is one Islam. But many different ways of precticing it.
It would ne interested in hearing your view on what defines what a Muslim is.

Jannah

Agathon wrote: »

Jannah, the best example of Islam is in the people (travel to the Muslim lands) and take your time making up your mind.

I would fully agree with that- the more I meet Muslims, particularly in their home countries, the more I feel there really is something special in their outlook on life and their mannerisms in general. I think it's more the fear of what everyone else will say that is the problem, and I know it's always "Bah, don't mind what they think..." but it's a LOT easier said than done!! Particularly since part of my college degree will mean spending a year in NY ... I'd worry for my safety if anything

af_thefragile wrote: »

Infact you'll realise its not a religion at all. Its just the way of life that will keep you the most out of trouble for your own good! Its a set of rules, its a guidebook to this universe (as mentioned in the Quran if you can find the right verse!).

I completely agree- for me, it won't be my previous religion which only occured once a week and was instantly forgotten, it will be a guide to a happier life that is both fulfilling and will allow me to meet people who share my values and can have a positive influence on me

af_thefragile wrote: »

All you've got to do is believe. All matter is nothing but an illusion and it blurs out the reality.

Yeah, but the thing is that I don't want to enter a huge life commitment blindly- it will probably be the most important decision I could ever make and I think it would be best to not have anything niggling away at the back of my mind that could very well one day be a deal breaker

Thanks a million for all your answers- they've been brilliant

af_thefragile

I don't remember who it was but i once herd someone say "Islam is the best religion in the world and muslims are the worst people".
Pretty strong statement but makes a little sense if you look around. Surely i've met many muslims who're amazing people with a great knowledge of things. But i have to say i've met loads of non-muslims who were a lot well mannered than muslims. That say i've seen lots of ill mannered non-muslims too. Guess you'll find all kinds of people everywhere!

But my point is in meeting and hanging around with other muslim people like the person suggested, you'll come across a wide range of muslims and i just wanted to tell you to not base your opinions about muslims based on a very narrow, handful of muslims cuz there are some terrible muslims out there. I think its best to find the one best muslim you can find out there, the nicest, most honest and the most well mannered muslim cuz he'll be the true muslim which you can base you concept of Islam on. Its gonna be a hard find.

And also a lot of things what muslims do are very culturally based. You'll find a great difference between the Arab muslims and a Pakistani muslim or something and that cuz of the difference in cultures so try to keep that in mind and make the distinction between what's culture and what's religion.




And yes indeed its a very big decision you're thinking of making there. Thats why i insisted you to think for yourself. Don't let other people's opinions distract you. A lot of people will make a lot of blatant accusitions and will try to scare you but then again, just think for yourself. God will guide you to the right path, whether thats Islam or something else!
And also remember there's no compulsion in Islam. If you decide of accepting Islam to try it out and then if you decide you don't like it, you can always change your ways. Don't believe in all those "you will be beheaded if you decide to leave" stuff. It doesn't apply to you. You have your will to do what you want and we humans have no right over your decisions as long as they don't harm anyone.
Though i'll have to say it again. You can't become a muslim till you truly believe in the one God and Mohammed to be his messenger. Faith is the 1st fundamental pillar of Islam and without faith you won't be considered a muslim by God according to Islam. You can lie or pretend to humans, you can lie or pretend to yourself but you can't lie or pretend to God.


Well, for now don't worry about that too much. As i just said, think for yourself and you'll be guided. Do your research. Don't just blindly believe what people say to you whether its a muslim or a non muslim. Its your life and only you can decide which way you wanna take it.
If you have your doubts about Islam, don't ever feel forced into converting. Wait till you're absolutely sure that you're a muslim. When will you feel sure about that? Thats when you'll truly start to believe in the one God and Mohammed as his messenger. That is all you need to do to call yourself a muslim. Its that easy. You don't need to change anything, you can keep your name, you can keep your job and your lifestyle (maybe with some alterations) but its not a big change. As i said most of what you see in the muslim world is a cultural thing, not a religious thing.


So to end, i'll say it again, do your research and do as much research as you can. Don't just blindly follow and believe. Its your life and yes its a big decision but to give you something to think about again, if you believe in an afterlife, then you'll begin to notice (probably notice more as you dig deeper into the belief) that this life is worth so little, all the things and associations in this world you make start to become so pointless and meaningless. Think of our place on this world. The 70odd years we're given to live on this planet. Our 70 odd years compared to the 14 or so billion years of existence of the universe (sorry to bring back the universe but i've always had a great interest in physics and astronomy!). Our 36k mile planet nothing more than a spec of dust in a more than 14 billion light years wide universe. How insignificant the loop of time and space of existence we've been given is compared to the wide universe. Can we say we know everything? Can we say what we do in this world of ours really matter? A world that someday is bound to perish but either a meteor or if not by our very sun itself when it burns no. There is no constant in this universe. Everything that is formed is bound to perish someday and so are we.
If you believe there's more to our existence than these 70 odd years we spend on this insignificant plant then you'll realise how insignificant all those pleasure decisions of yours were. How out of all the millions of decisions you made in your 70 odd years only a handful really matter. If you believe there's more to our existence than a pointless 70 years on a pointless planet, then you'll notice the scale of the decision you're gonna make and how everything else starts to become smaller and insignificant.
If you believe we're creatures of dust to be born of and perish as an insignificant aspect of this universe, then no decision you make is gonna make any significance in front of the vast dust cloud which the universe.
Just think what would happen after you perish. What would it be like. Both with an afterlife and without one...

A lot of people will use what i've said to say religion is a figment of human imagination. I say we're all here for a reason. The universe is not random. Every single electron and spec of quark and Lepton is there for a reason. Look it up. In this universe nothing goes to waste or is of no purpose or value. Neither are we.

But then just think for yourself and believe what feels right to you...





woah, another gigiantic post, wasn't meant to be that big... I keep getting carried away a lot!!
Well, it should keep someone busy hopefully!
Oh, and if you or anyone of you wanna tell me, abuse me, accuse me, or just ask me anything, feel free to PM me. I'm not the best person but i'll see how i can help ye!

DinoBot

af_thefragile wrote: »

And also remember there's no compulsion in Islam. If you decide of accepting Islam to try it out and then if you decide you don't like it, you can always change your ways. Don't believe in all those "you will be beheaded if you decide to leave" stuff. It doesn't apply to you.

Why does it not apply to her ? Is there a special pass you can get for this ?

I was always under the impression that the Hadith were vaild. Am I incorrect ?

---

Muslim 623 The Prophet said: "It is not permissible to take the life of a Muslim except in one of the three cases: the married adulterer, a life for a life (if the person is Muslim), and the deserter of Islam."

---

Bukhari 9:89:271 A man embraced Islam and then reverted back to Judaism Mu'adh said: "I will not sit down unless you kill him as it is the verdict of Allah and His Apostle"

---

Bukhari 4:52:260 Ali burnt some people (Zanadiqa, atheists 9:84:57) although the Prophet had said, "Don?t punish anybody with Allah's punishment (Fire)" if a Muslim discards his religion, kill him"

---

getz

DinoBot wrote: »

Why does it not apply to her ? Is there a special pass you can get for this ?

I was always under the impression that the Hadith were vaild. Am I incorrect ?

---

Muslim 623 The Prophet said: "It is not permissible to take the life of a Muslim except in one of the three cases: the married adulterer, a life for a life (if the person is Muslim), and the deserter of Islam."

---

Bukhari 9:89:271 A man embraced Islam and then reverted back to Judaism Mu'adh said: "I will not sit down unless you kill him as it is the verdict of Allah and His Apostle"

---

Bukhari 4:52:260 Ali burnt some people (Zanadiqa, atheists 9:84:57) although the Prophet had said, "Don?t punish anybody with Allah's punishment (Fire)" if a Muslim discards his religion, kill him"

---

some time in the future it will be illegal to practice sexism in some western countrys-some religions will then have a problem ,ie the catholic church and islam -in the koran only one female by name is mentioned and that is the name of mary [mother of jesus] what dose that tell you about these religions

DinoBot

getz wrote: »

some time in the future it will be illegal to practice sexism in some western countrys-some religions will then have a problem ,ie the catholic church and islam -in the koran only one female by name is mentioned and that is the name of mary [mother of jesus] what dose that tell you about these religions

Eh ? whats your point ?

getz

DinoBot wrote: »

Eh ? whats your point ?

stating the fact that a lot of religions are sexist and will soon have to look at the way they practice it has already started in the USA with christian and muslim faith ,female teachers and priests

DinoBot

getz wrote: »

stating the fact that a lot of religions are sexist and will soon have to look at the way they practice it has already started in the USA with christian and muslim faith ,female teachers and priests

Ok, but my question was nothing to do with sexism, did you not read my post ????

EcoBrats

Jannah, I have to admit I haven't read some of the more lengthly posts in this thread but I have read most of them.

I just wanted to wish you luck with your spiritual journey and I'm sure that whatever you decide to do, regarding reverting, it will be the right decision.

I have personally read a lot about Islam and have many Muslim friends, the thought of reverting even crossed my mind at one time because I found many facets of Islam appealed to my sensibilities.

Unfortunately, I personally have to same problem with Islam as I do with so many other religions. Whilst it might be possible to accept that the Quaran is the word of God, the Hadiths are not. And I believe that anything penned by men (in the generic sense of the word) is subject to corruption. This is also incidentally why I cannot accept the Bible.

Not just that the Hadiths (in my own opinion) could have been contrived for selfish reasons but there are so many, which different factions of Islam seem to pick and choose at will (not everyone follows the same Hadiths).

Like I said, best of luck with your journey, I will be continuing mine.

af_thefragile

DinoBot, i don't know much about the Hadiths but there's no where mentioned in the Quran that someone who leaves Islam should be killed.
Also many people have converted from Islam and no one cares about them.
It is your personal decision to leave and no one can kill you for doing that.
I don't know much about the whole killing issue but really the OP (Jannah) doesn't need to worry about that. No one is gonna chase him/her down to kill her if she converts to Islam and then decides to leave.




Getz, If you compare Islam to many other religions you'll notice Islam is a lot less "sexist" than most of the other major religions out there.

hivizman

af_thefragile wrote: »

DinoBot, i don't know much about the Hadiths but there's no where mentioned in the Quran that someone who leaves Islam should be killed.

The punishment (if any) for apostasy from Islam (whatever apostasy may mean - arguably the arabic word ridda, often translated as "apostasy", means somthing stronger than simply leaving Islam, such as breaking solemn oaths and waging war on Muslims) was discussed briefly on an earlier thread a few weeks ago. This post from Schuhart provides a couple of useful links, including a discussion of apostasy that can be accessed on Islamonline.net.

DinoBot

af_thefragile wrote: »

DinoBot, i don't know much about the Hadiths but there's no where mentioned in the Quran that someone who leaves Islam should be killed.

Its also not mentioned how to pray anywhere in the quran, but its very important to know that. Not all of the important issues are covered soly in Quran. Islam is Quran + Hadith.

And although Quran doesnt give a punshment for use by man it clearly states what Allah will do with such people who backslide. Please read Surat Al-Maida for a fuller description (Surat 5)

af_thefragile wrote: »

Also many people have converted from Islam and no one cares about them.
It is your personal decision to leave and no one can kill you for doing that.
I don't know much about the whole killing issue but really the OP (Jannah) doesn't need to worry about that. No one is gonna chase him/her down to kill her if she converts to Islam and then decides to leave.
.

Yes its fine to say it does not concern her because she is living in a secular country. But it is part of the faith that does effect Muslims.

But I take your point, however I think in order to truly take on a faith you need to fully embrace all aspects of the faith ( but you don't have to like all aspects) other wise it will reer its ugly head at a later stage.

hivizman wrote: »

The punishment (if any) for apostasy from Islam (whatever apostasy may mean - arguably the arabic word ridda, often translated as "apostasy", means somthing stronger than simply leaving Islam, such as breaking solemn oaths and waging war on Muslims) was discussed briefly on an earlier thread a few weeks ago. This post from Schuhart provides a couple of useful links, including a discussion of apostasy that can be accessed on Islamonline.net.

well tbh someone who leaves Islam and trys to encourage others to do them same would be considered an act of apostasy .

Ive asked many Imam's on this topic with the same answer. If someone leaves Islam but causes no harm then its ok, but if someone works against Islam then the law should apply. Now what does work against Islam mean ?

Not nice reading you quoted there hivizman.

"Hidden Apostasy

There is another kind of apostasy among people who do not declare their explicit disbelief and openly wage war against everything that is religious. Those apostates are far smarter than that. They wrap their apostasy in various coverings, sneaking in a very cunning manner into the mind, the same way that malignant tumors sneak into the body. These people are not noticed when they invade or begin to disseminate their falsehood, but they are mostly felt when they affect the minds. They do not use guns in their attacks; however, their attacks are fierce and cunning.

Reputable scholars and well-versed jurists are aware of this type of apostates, but they cannot take action in the face of such professional criminals, who have firmly established themselves and have not left a chance for law to be enforced on them. They are the hypocrites whose abode will be in the lowest level of Hellfire.

This is intellectual apostasy, whose traces are noticed everyday in circulated newspapers and books, in radio and TV programs, and in laws legislated to govern people's affairs. This kind of apostasy is — at least in my point of view — more dangerous than openly announced apostasy; for the former works continuously on a wide scale, at the same time, it cannot be easily resisted in the same manner as the latter, which always makes much fuss, attracts attention, and stirs up public opinion.

Hypocrisy is more dangerous than open disbelief."

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

af_thefragile

hivizman wrote: »

The punishment (if any) for apostasy from Islam (whatever apostasy may mean - arguably the arabic word ridda, often translated as "apostasy", means somthing stronger than simply leaving Islam, such as breaking solemn oaths and waging war on Muslims) was discussed briefly on an earlier thread a few weeks ago. This post from Schuhart provides a couple of useful links, including a discussion of apostasy that can be accessed on Islamonline.net.

Yeah, i think thats more what its supposed to mean.
People just like to generalise or cause the misunderstanding that the hadis translates to anyone who leaves Islam and not just the ones who leave islam only to insult it and wage war upon it.

DinoBot wrote: »

Its also not mentioned how to pray anywhere in the quran, but its very important to know that. Not all of the important issues are covered soly in Quran. Islam is Quran + Hadith.

And although Quran doesnt give a punshment for use by man it clearly states what Allah will do with such people who backslide. Please read Surat Al-Maida for a fuller description (Surat 5)



Yes its fine to say it does not concern her because she is living in a secular country. But it is part of the faith that does effect Muslims.

But I take your point, however I think in order to truly take on a faith you need to fully embrace all aspects of the faith ( but you don't have to like all aspects) other wise it will reer its ugly head at a later stage.

Well for the first be, God (Allah) can do whatever he wants and yes Allah has stated that he won't punish just the "apostay" but every non believer. He has stated that many times. I think it makes sense too. He is God, he asked people to worship him and has told people that if they don't worship him, he's gonna horribly punish them, despise that if people don't worship him, we'll they bought it up on themselves...

Now whether you believe in God or not is a different matter. Its your own personal choice and opinion. Though it wouldn't change the fact that there is a God or there isn't one. Cuz although Richard Dawkins is so confirmed on his opinion, you can't prove God doesn't exist. Our science is limited to our universe, God made the universe the way it is and thats the way we study and understand it. God doesn't belong to the universe (while the universe belongs to him), hence as we can't see beyond the bounds of our universe, we can never scientifically prove his existence or absence. Though a lot of physicists do say there's a huge possibility that the universe we live in is just not what there is, there is a huge possibility in the existence of multiple universes. Like soap bubbles on a bath tub, every bubble could contain its own universe.
Anyway, thats slightly off topic.


And i do fully agree with your last statement. You do need to accept all aspects of the faith which you've decided to embrace. Whether you like them or not. But then again, its mentioned in many places in the Quran there is no compulsion in religion. If you don't like an aspect, you don't need to follow it. God is all merciful and also all mighty!
If you don't like the stoning and lashing of people, you don't need to follow it.

Oh and just a point to note. The Quran came down during the time where there weren't many humane forms of punishments and capital punishments. There was no electric chair nor the gas chamber. Beheading was the most efficient and quick way of capital punishment. Also stoning and lashing were far more humane types of punishments than the ones the Romans had. I'm sure a person put on death sentence would prefer to be beheaded than being burned at the stake or gutted alive or crucified. And also the stoning and lashing was less painful and more humane than being put in the iron maiden. The main purpose of stoning and lashing was more to inflict mental humiliation that physical pain. Also the capital punishments were reserved to only severe crimes that could be proven with multiple witnesses. While more than one witness was always necessary to prove a person's crime and for him to be punished in any way. If more than one witness couldn't prove a person's crime, the person could not be convicted.
So although it sounds brutal, it was all still much much humane than compared to what was going on in the christian community and can still be considered pretty humane in today's new "tolerant" world!