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Electronic Arts' DRM Outrage
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Matt Simis wrote: »"Not buying on iTunes" is not a valid analagy as it implies you are buying elsewhere, which is clearly not what is happening when you pirate or boycott.
I can understand different views among all this ,but the reason why I'd buy a hard copy of a game is.
If I want to install the game on another machine ,for reinstalling and for value. I don't like buying totally online ,because it cuts out a lot of jobs etc. and the price doesn't tally with the service thats missing.0 -
I can understand different views among all this ,but the reason why I'd buy a hard copy of a game is.
If I want to install the game on another machine ,for reinstalling and for value. I don't like buying totally online ,because it cuts out a lot of jobs etc. and the price doesn't tally with the service thats missing.Whats the point in buying a game if you can't reinstall it ,as you please ?
Jaysus ,I wouldn't bother buying games like that.
Not buying games because of DRM clearly hurts more jobs. Bit of a contradiction there. On your (valid) point of online (Steam) version costing too much, this is actually to "protect" retailers, who would otherwise be unable to compete, which IMO is just too bad for the bricks and mortor guys.
I worked in a similar industry and Dixons, FNAC etc would have a $hitfit if we priced product in more consumer friendly manner when selling direct. It crippled our online business.0 -
Are you talking about AAC or Protected-AAC? AAC is also commonly known as M4A, which plays on my phone, and is also supported by most Media Players [WinAmp, Foobar2000, Media Player Classic, and VLC all play it. Course iTunes does too, but I'm not sure about WMP]
I didn't think the music played so easily on other devices. I've not downloaded a lot of stuff on itunes ,don't really like the whole setup tbh.
Cheers.0 -
I can understand different views among all this ,but the reason why I'd buy a hard copy of a game is.
If I want to install the game on another machine ,for reinstalling and for value. I don't like buying totally online ,because it cuts out a lot of jobs etc. and the price doesn't tally with the service thats missing.
Yea i see your point. But as an example to my POV?
I wanted to get CoD4, and I was weighing the options between Retail and Steam. About a week before I got the money together, Steam announced a Store-Wide sale [took place the five days between xmas and new years]. It cut about 10% off the Steam price, and when I noticed it, and calculated how much it would be in euro [incl VAT], it turned out to be only a couple more euro than the retail version.
I said, 'hmm I go into galway and get the GoTY/Collectors Edition, and have to worry about whether the game is up-to-date or not, but be able to play it today or I can save money on not getting the bus, and get it on Steam, while watching about 9GB crawl along on a 2mB line. I went with the latter. The reason? I never have to worry about whether its up-to-date EVER, and I didn't have to leave the house. I just left the PC on for a couple of days [as usual], and it was done in time for New Years Day.
Since then, I have talked an Internet Café manager in galway into getting the steam version onto a few of the PC's, and as a result, my profile is never touched because its specific to my Steam Account [of course this is because the Retail version and the Steam version are in different directories, and point to diff profile folders].
This way, I supported a very good digital download service, along with the games publisher/developer, while never leaving my house. And now, I can play it everywhere its installed never having to worry about whether the game is up-to-date or the CD-Key is wrong or notI didn't think the music played so easily on other devices. I've not downloaded a lot of stuff on itunes ,don't really like the whole setup tbh.
Cheers.
no prob. 'Course Protected-AAC needs to played on an authorised device or PC [only iPods are capable of being Authorised Devices as far as I no]0 -
Matt Simis wrote: »I worked in a similar industry and Dixons, FNAC etc would have a $hitfit if we priced product in more consumer friendly manner when selling direct. It crippled our online business.
It's not just bricks and mortars that suffer though ,it's manufacturers of all the boxes ,the shipping etc. It's a part of the economy.
We can't all be games developers :pac::D
DRM might actually force hard copies off the market.0 -
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It's not just bricks and mortars that suffer though ,it's manufacturers of all the boxes ,the shipping etc. It's a part of the economy.
We can't all be games developers :pac::D
DRM might actually force hard copies off the market.
which would be a good thing in my eyes, as all boxes are made of plastic [or have plastic on/in them in some form], so this would cut down on the amount of oil, etc being used. Also, the boxes are probably mass-produced, along with any other print media.
Alongside this, it would mean that it becomes far more economical to buy from online outlets, espec from places such as Steam [the server admins have to put food on the table too!]0 -
It's not just bricks and mortars that suffer though ,it's manufacturers of all the boxes ,the shipping etc. It's a part of the economy.
We can't all be games developers :pac::D
DRM might actually force hard copies off the market.
I just cant feel for those people. Buying direct gives the most amount of money to the people who did the *actual* work on the game in this case. If Steam offers some sort of hard copy or printed material (I love concept art books for instance) all the better, but going fully down this path as a point of contention arent we really just pandering to merely ancillary roles and inventing jobs for the sake of it here?0 -
which would be a good thing in my eyes, as all boxes are made of plastic [or have plastic on/in them in some form], so this would cut down on the amount of oil, etc being used. Also, the boxes are probably mass-produced, along with any other print media.
Alongside this, it would mean that it becomes far more economical to buy from online outlets, espec from places such as Steam [the server admins have to put food on the table too!]
Can't see how we would operate ,without certain industries in the world. But thats way away over in another forum:)0 -
Matt Simis wrote: »I just cant feel for those people. Buying direct gives the most amount of money to the people who did the *actual* work on the game in this case. If Steam offers some sort of hard copy or printed material (I love concept art books for instance) all the better, but going fully down this path as a point of contention arent we really just pandering to merely ancillary roles and inventing jobs for the sake of it here?
It's how the world works in my eyes. Things aren't perfect ,far from it. But advertising agencies etc are all part of the industry and they don't exist without retail outlets.0 -
I didn't think the music played so easily on other devices. I've not downloaded a lot of stuff on itunes ,don't really like the whole setup tbh.
Cheers.
The drm free files on itunes play on nearly all media players. It's just a different codec.
The drm files only play on itunes and allowed ipod devices. I avoid the drm files myself because they are too much hassle.
I use emusic myself because all the songs are in mp3 drm free format.
Didn't EA state that they are implementing a system that allows you to 'deauthorise' any of your installs? This means if you install it on your pc and it dies, on your next install attempt you just clear the previous install from your list and you are back to your full 5 (or 3) allowed installs.
This is actually similar to the itunes setup.0 -
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The only thing that I think could be a legal grey area is that we as consumers don't agree to these DRM's agreements when we purchase the product, While we get to the terms and conditions when installing the game we agree to the DRM but before hand there is no info when purchasing, I believe they would have and obligation to mention it on the box, would love to see the industry Making it mandatory to have info regarding DRM on the box and especially the no. of installs they will allow on the front cover or soemthing.0
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mayordenis wrote: »The only thing that I think could be a legal grey area is that we as consumers don't agree to these DRM's agreements when we purchase the product, While we get to the terms and conditions when installing the game we agree to the DRM but before hand there is no info when purchasing, I believe they would have and obligation to mention it on the box, would love to see the industry Making it mandatory to have info regarding DRM on the box and especially the no. of installs they will allow on the front cover or soemthing.
Taking a recent example, Far Cry 2, the wording on the back is "This video game is protected by the digital rights management software SecuROM which installs additional components required for copy protection on the user's (sic) computer and limits the number of installations of the game. During the installation and/or the first launch, an online connection is required to unlock the game".0 -
Taking a recent example, Far Cry 2, the wording on the back is "This video game is protected by the digital rights management software SecuROM which installs additional components required for copy protection on the user's (sic) computer and limits the number of installations of the game. During the installation and/or the first launch, an online connection is required to unlock the game".
thats fair enough
I scrutinized spore with a friend (it might not of been spore but I think it was) and there was no sign of anything regarding there archaic DRM.
However I still believe there alot of room for transparency on this.
Just laying it out completely honestly in plain english for those of us that aren't the most computer savy would be ethically correct.0 -
Taking a recent example, Far Cry 2, the wording on the back is "This video game is protected by the digital rights management software SecuROM which installs additional components required for copy protection on the user's (sic) computer and limits the number of installations of the game. During the installation and/or the first launch, an online connection is required to unlock the game".
yea, as a result Ubisoft are NOT going to get into court over the use of SecuROM.
On the note of EA implementing the deactivation similar to iTunes, I don't think so. I've spent a fair amount of time researching this, and while a load of rumours and official press releases came up, that was definitely not either one. When I get more time I'll trawl through a few things see what comes up, meanwhile, if you can save the hassle that'd be nice :P0 -
AnCapaillMor wrote: »I know EA are scum(charging for tiger woods courses(a new low for me)). but in this case i can't blame them for trying this. The PC games industry is in sh1t. Piracy has pretty much killed it, more games now are console based or ports from console to PC(2-3 years a port from console was craz talk), prices are too much. Why pump millions into a game only for it ripped off big time. any game that is on PC now can be downloaded and cracked. Spore had over 100,000 copies downloaded alone through torrents, no to mention how many different people those copies were given to.
At the end of the day, DRM does nothing to hinder piracy, and punishes legitimate customers. Which just drives more people to piracy.Matt Simis wrote: »Bear in mind you can buy the game (and therefore contribute) then use a NO CD crack or various other ways around protection methods. Yeah whine "but I shouldnt have to do that", dont bother, this is the reality. They make the software, invest millions of $ and 10s of thousands of manhours, DRM is just an effort to protect their investment.
When MS announced the DRM activation system there was much hoopla about not being able install multiple times etc. Today the reality is when you trip the activation system and requires redoing you call a number and an automated system just hands you a new key. Not such a big deal in practice is it?
So you can buy the game, and then use a pirate-provided crack in order to play it properly? If I'm going to have to seek out a pirated crack in order to get the thing working without installing invasive rubbish on my system, then I'm hardly going to give money to the games publishers, who are in turn funding development of said invasive rubbish.
And I don't really think it's reaosnable to expect people to phone EA, during their working hours, to get additional installs after an unadvertised copy protection system means they're unable to play a game they bought legitimately.
Your options are:
- buy a legitimate copy of a game, supporting the developer, but also support Securom, and never know when or if you're not going to be able play, or exactly what's being installed on your system.
- pirate the game, which means the developer gets nothing for it, but at least you know you're not installing Securom, and you'll still be able to play it in 6 months/ a year/ 10 years.
So either you get more games being developed with ever more intrusive DRM, more publicity about installations problem and people being unable to play the game they paid for, and thus more people deciding it's too much hassle and they'll give it a miss and get the console version instead.
Or you get more people pirating the game, less money going to the developers, to the point where they decide it's not worth developing PC games anymore and move to console development.
Third option: stop treating legitimate customers like thieves. Get rid of Securom, go back to basic disk checks. People who would pirate because they can't afford/can't be bothered paying will still do so, you'll probably still get small group of friends sharing copies among themselves - but that's happening anyway. At least you won't be driving away legitimate customers.0 -
Yes but see the whole thing behind cracking a game is that it is actually legal. So long as you can provide a license for said game, then the law can't do a thing to you.
Course when developers such as EA [for Dead Space], and Bethesda [for Fallout 3 - I'm sure there are more examples] decide to publish games with DRM software such as SecuROM and then add a No-Media Crack, it makes it ILLEGAL to crack games. Which is unfortunate as many of my game are cracked, yet still completely legal, with the ability to play online, etc0 -
And he allowed that piece of trash out the door :eek: Half the crap on there doesnt run properly. And would it have killed them to polish Renegade?Yup, heard all bout it. Shame how the mighty have fallen [talking bout westwood. A Co-Founder of Westwood was actually VP of EA at the time of The First Decade's release]0 -
Since everyone is so outraged by DRM, what exactly would you suggest as a good way of hindering piracy. They have to try something. The one effective thing that was used in the last few years was Starforce. Splinter Cell: Chaos Theory went 422 days without being cracked, which in this day and age was a bloody miracle. Yet people went ape**** over it. Yes, Starforce was a piece of crap overall, and not being able to remove it was a terrible idea, but it did what it was supposed to. Stopped people pirating the games.
We all go on and on about how piracy is killing the pc. Am i willing to put up with a small annoyance (after my 5th install of the game :rolleyes:) if it helps the platform? Yes i am. And anyone who says that copy protection is helping piracy is just wrong. "Omg, securom on this game? Well then i'm definitly going to pirate it! That'll learn them."
So, what would you suggest developers do? They have to do something, because we all know how big a problem piracy is.0 -
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Do what I do, do not buy any game with this feature. I buy a game if I really like it, if I like one of these I will not. Am I missing out, no, but they are on my money.0 -
Since everyone is so outraged by DRM, what exactly would you suggest as a good way of hindering piracy. They have to try something. The one effective thing that was used in the last few years was Starforce. Splinter Cell: Chaos Theory went 422 days without being cracked, which in this day and age was a bloody miracle. Yet people went ape**** over it. Yes, Starforce was a piece of crap overall, and not being able to remove it was a terrible idea, but it did what it was supposed to. Stopped people pirating the games.
We all go on and on about how piracy is killing the pc. Am i willing to put up with a small annoyance (after my 5th install of the game :rolleyes:) if it helps the platform? Yes i am. And anyone who says that copy protection is helping piracy is just wrong. "Omg, securom on this game? Well then i'm definitly going to pirate it! That'll learn them."
So, what would you suggest developers do? They have to do something, because we all know how big a problem piracy is.
Good point.
Maybe its not a case of the physical game being copied [successfully], maybe its more a case of maybe tightening the noose around the pool of serial codes a certain games will dip into. To stop keygens for example. Course this can mean people can guess the key, and write a program to be able to get the whitelist, but I haven't seen such an app, and guessing a 20 alpha-numeric key? good luck.
On the note of guessing, about 8 years ago, a friend copied Starcraft for me. Not realising that it a key to play, he gave me the copied CD, and I went home happy. Got to the install screen, and threw a s#!t attack. I said, well I as well start guessing then. Funnily enough, I actually guessed one that worked! Even funnier is that the PC crashed half-way thru the install and when i started to reinstall, the key was still there! *copy and paste ftw! hehehe*0 -
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I don't think there's ever really going to be a way of stopping people who want to pirate. As has been said many times before, the best way is to not try and stop people using pirated copies, but to make people want to buy the game.Since everyone is so outraged by DRM, what exactly would you suggest as a good way of hindering piracy. They have to try something. The one effective thing that was used in the last few years was Starforce. Splinter Cell: Chaos Theory went 422 days without being cracked, which in this day and age was a bloody miracle. Yet people went ape**** over it. Yes, Starforce was a piece of crap overall, and not being able to remove it was a terrible idea, but it did what it was supposed to. Stopped people pirating the games.
We all go on and on about how piracy is killing the pc. Am i willing to put up with a small annoyance (after my 5th install of the game :rolleyes:) if it helps the platform? Yes i am. And anyone who says that copy protection is helping piracy is just wrong. "Omg, securom on this game? Well then i'm definitly going to pirate it! That'll learn them."
So, what would you suggest developers do? They have to do something, because we all know how big a problem piracy is.
The first step is to make a good game. There's many games that had great potential but, almost always because of pushy publishers, the developers don't get to finish the game and we get a half-assed attempt. If a developer makes a game that feels like value for money, then you're going to be more trusting of other games they make. Something like Quantum Of Solace, which is shockingly short, should of paid attention to other Bond games like Goldeneye or Everything Or Nothing, or even Call Of Duty 4 whose engine it used, to see how to make an action game that draws the player in.
Multiplayer that requires a key is also a good idea, but the developers have to make a great multiplayer game. There's loads of games that have multiplayer aspects, but few that people will go back to, so a game can't rely on this as it's major draw (unless of course, it's a multiplayer game. But will gloss over that point...*cough*)
And one thing that always makes me fork out extra for collectors editions are feelies. For the younger members of our audience, Feelies are the extra bits and bobs you used to get in games such as real versions of in-game items or cloth maps (god, I loved Ultima for these) etc. Not only were they cool to have, but they also acted like copy-protection too. For example, in Ultima, the cloth map had locations on it that you'd be asked about in-game. It helped add an extra level to the game, where you actually had to do something in the real world.
Nowadays, you only get feelies in collectors editions, but they're still worth it in my opinion.
On the same line as feelies, extra in-game content would be an idea. The type of thing that if you connect to the net and give your serial number or something, you'd be able to download special items of quests or levels. It'd give fans of a game more of a reason to buy it in order to get the goodies.
As I said, these won't stop piracy, but they'd give people reasons to want to buy the games, which is what the publishers should be aiming for. Or at least that's what I think. I'll go back to my box now...0 -
We all go on and on about how piracy is killing the pc. Am i willing to put up with a small annoyance (after my 5th install of the game :rolleyes:) if it helps the platform? Yes i am. And anyone who says that copy protection is helping piracy is just wrong. "Omg, securom on this game? Well then i'm definitly going to pirate it! That'll learn them."
You might be, I'm not, and a lot of other people aren't. If I'm buying the game, and the right to play it, I don't think it's right that I have to go back to the publishers after x number of installs, meet whatever standards of proof they decide to set to prove that I bought it, before I can install it again. If you buy a game, you should be able to play it in 5 or 10 years time, without restrictions, even if the developers are long gone bust.
Copy protection *is* helping piracy. It's certainly not hindering it, and the only people it causes problems for are legitimate consumers. Every time there's a big Securom kerfuffle, it nudges more people towards piracy, or at the very least away from buying the game.So, what would you suggest developers do? They have to do something, because we all know how big a problem piracy is.
Humanji has it spot on. Give people an incentive to buy the game. Right now it's all stick, and no carrot. Time was, you bought a game, you got a decent box, decent manual, maybe some other bits and bobs inside - the Infocom games were great for this. Now you get a DVD case, a slip of paper or maybe a 10 page manual if you're lucky, and the disk.
OK, so the publishers do it to cut costs. But we're being told it costs zillions more to develop a game than ever before, so why cut corners with the presentation?
As has been said many times before, at the moment the pirated version of a game is superior to the retail version. Find a way of making the retail version better, stop punishing your customers, and you'll cut piracy.0 -
Personally, I usually play a game once and that's it. Even for my PS3 I only own 2 games, the ones that came with it. I either get a loan of PS3 games from friends or I rent them.
To me the cost of buying a game new is justified if you plan on keeping that game for more than its media and adding it to some collection or something. If there was an option to easily rent PC games, with no late charges and for cheaper than the "buy-new-then-trade" difference then I would.
They need to make the process easier for getting PC games, they need to release a demo with every PC game, they need to remove the need for having the disk in the drive as standard and they need to listen to the community on what they expect from their games.
Also, another problem with PC gaming, especially high-end games, that I've read about (supposedly this is the reason Gears 2 will never be coming to PC) is that if an individual is tech savvy enough to have a high end PC and overclock it they are obviously also aware about usenet, torrents ... etc. To me I'd say a lot of console gamers who never game on PC's know nothing about how and where to get pirated games.
As a pc gamer you will inevitable figure this out through the process of learning about PC's and using the internet frequently.0 -
Humanji has it spot on. Give people an incentive to buy the game. Right now it's all stick, and no carrot. Time was, you bought a game, you got a decent box, decent manual, maybe some other bits and bobs inside - the Infocom games were great for this. Now you get a DVD case, a slip of paper or maybe a 10 page manual if you're lucky, and the disk.
OK, so the publishers do it to cut costs. But we're being told it costs zillions more to develop a game than ever before, so why cut corners with the presentation?
As has been said many times before, at the moment the pirated version of a game is superior to the retail version. Find a way of making the retail version better, stop punishing your customers, and you'll cut piracy.
Yes I agree completely with this, my idea was a load of rubbish, that's [like everything I'm trying to stop] hindering the people who bought the game, not the pirates to an extent [hey, if they've spent the better part of their night d/ling it, their not gonna worry about figuring out a cd-key - most of the time :P]
On the note of Publisher cutting costs, I know that all you got with any Half-Life 2 Retail edition [Collector's Edition, Game of the Year, etc] all they came with was a slip of paper mapping the default controls. This was because you weren't meant to know what the hell was going on at the start. If you didn't know the back story, go play HL1 [Half Life: Source came with the Collector's and GoTY Editions at least], I think that was Valve's reasoning.
On the not of Dev's cutting costs on Presentation [which Valve didn't do by any strech], I feel there aren't many dev's doing this. I mean in Dead Space it came with a 16 Page Manual that explained everything. Whatever wasn't explained about the story was on the back. It just didn't need any more pages.
Another thing, a guy I know bought Warhammer: Online Special Edition or something. It came with a Desktop Game unit, the same manual that comes with the regular game [which was pretty big - I'd say about 30 pages], the soundtrack and an absolutely HUGE Art Book. I mean this had A2-size concept art drawing printed on it, was a Hardback cover, and was immaculately presented. The box that contained all this was very also well presented, and the inner lining was Velvet. Not shabby for €90 [I think], and out of the 3 retailers in Galway City [HMV, GameStop & Game], there were only 2 copies sent out to I think GamePersonally, I usually play a game once and that's it. Even for my PS3 I only own 2 games, the ones that came with it. I either get a loan of PS3 games from friends or I rent them.
So... does this mean you have no interest in multiplayer gaming? Because that is the main reason behind [at least me anyway] buying a game. That or if I know I'll like it [either through playing it from rental, on a friend's PC/console, or reading multiple reviews]0 -
So... does this mean you have no interest in multiplayer gaming?
correct. If there is a lull in new games I will usually go back to my legal copies of UT04 or CS:S. But there hasn't been a lull for the last 2 years. I've always had new games to play. Multiplayer gaming only interests me if there are no new single player games to play.0 -
correct. If there is a lull in new games I will usually go back to my legal copies of UT04 or CS:S. But there hasn't been a lull for the last 2 years. I've always had new games to play. Multiplayer gaming only interests me if there are no new single player games to play.
wow, got to be the first person i've heard that doesn't play at least one recent mp game [when i say recent, i mean cod4, tf2, ut3, any recentish rts, etc].
I mean, I didn't grow up on playing MP games [didn't have even 56k till like '00], so the singleplayer is a big part of the game to me. But there has to be an MP aspect for it to have any replay value for me0 -
MOH posted
"Third option: stop treating legitimate customers like thieves. Get rid of Securom, go back to basic disk checks. People who would pirate because they can't afford/can't be bothered paying will still do so, you'll probably still get small group of friends sharing copies among themselves - but that's happening anyway. At least you won't be driving away legitimate customers. "
100% correct there. All the DRM, Starforce and other types of intrusive copy protection gimmicks do is piss off the buyers of the game and put off others who dont want the hassle of x amount of installs or dodgy software going onto their pc's. It will never and I mean NEVER stop the game from being pirated.
Copy protected games take an extra day or two to be cracked these days and I doubt such a small timeframe will make someone go out and buy the game instead of downloading it for free. Game studios also need to wise the hell up and see the world is now a global market and adjust there marketing plans so software is released at the same time and not a week ahead in one country and a week later in others.
Fallout 3 is a prime example of this as it was released in both shop and steam form a week earlier in the US than europe yet was on the torrent sites hours after the US release date :rolleyes:0 -
Copy protected games take an extra day or two to be cracked these days and I doubt such a small timeframe will make someone go out and buy the game instead of downloading it for free. Game studios also need to wise the hell up and see the world is now a global market and adjust there marketing plans so software is released at the same time and not a week ahead in one country and a week later in others.
Fallout 3 is a prime example of this as it was released in both shop and steam form a week earlier in the US than europe yet was on the torrent sites hours after the US release date :rolleyes:
Well that can depend on the Manufacturing Plant's workload [where the actual game goes into production, iunno who they are :P]. Much like the PS3 with its Blu-Ray Diode problem. They just couldn't support a worldwide simultaneous release. Could be the same here. Curse the devs could always rework it and make it faster, but I'm not fussed if we get a game a day or two before/after the US or any other country0 -
wow, got to be the first person i've heard that doesn't play at least one recent mp game [when i say recent, i mean cod4, tf2, ut3, any recentish rts, etc].
Have you talked to many mid-20's gamers with full time jobs? I know of plenty of gamers who don't bother with MP because it requires too much time investment and tends to be disappointing due to the average age (mentally) on public servers being around 12. There's just too many griefers around these days.
In my teens, and early 20's (college years) I pretty much gamed MP all the time in MoH:AA, CoD, CS 1.5, BF1942... etc but found singleplayer gaming better when I got a job as I could game on my own time.But there has to be an MP aspect for it to have any replay value for me
Exactly my point. So if you don't play MP, then the game usually has no replay value so why would I pay full price for a PC game i'm going to play once then never play again.0 -
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This whole piracy thing has gotten way out of hand, it's simple.
Games are a product, if you don't like that product, don't buy it.
That's the only legitimate course of action.
Everything else is just lying to yourself about why it's ok for you to take what you have no right to.
There, now we can get on with discussing the various merits of new releases. I hear Left For Dead is out soon. That's pretty cool, eh?0
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