I'm pissed off ...big time

Darragh29

Breezer wrote: »

Just to clarify this from a medical perspective, HPV has a large number of serotypes (subgroups), and the vaccine does not cover all of these. Additionally, there are other causes of cervical cancer. Therefore, while it is between 80% and 100% effective against the serotypes it covers (which are the ones most likely to cause cancer), it is only about 70% effective overall.

Add to this the fact that the vaccine can only prevent new infections from occurring, not treat any existing cases (which may not yet be symptomatic but could go on to cause cancer), and the fact that the vaccine was only going to be given to girls aged 11-12, when the average age of onset of cervical cancer is between the ages of 25 and 40, and you can see why Harney is still putting emphasis on the necessity for a screening programme.

That said, this is a terrible decision and a major step backwards for the health service. We're so far behind other developed countries in both our vaccination and screening programmes that it's beyond a joke. The announcement of the HPV vaccine a few months back was the best thing I've heard from the Department of Health since the smoking ban, and to hear that it's been cancelled has left me speechless to be honest.

Breezer, 70% plus is good enough reason for me. The fact still remains, notwithstanding the fact there might be minor medical qualifications attached to this programme, that this programme, if it were implemented, would effectively eliminate cervical cancer in this country. I wonder why cancer specialists are not picketing her office over this???

brendansmith

clown bag wrote: »

announced on the night everyones eyes were on the US election. noice.

Yeah the Australian Treasurer decided to mention that the budget was fu*ked in oz too!
Some chancers!

Breezer

Darragh29 wrote: »

Breezer, 70% plus is good enough reason for me. The fact still remains, notwithstanding the fact there might be minor medical qualifications attached to this programme, that this programme, if it were implemented, would effectively eliminate cervical cancer in this country. I wonder why cancer specialists are not picketing her office over this???

Oh I'm not defending her pulling the programme, far from it. Note my last paragraph. Also my signature: I'm not exactly her biggest fan. I'm simply responding to the posters who have mentioned that the vaccine would eliminate the need for screening: it wouldn't, and the full effect of the vaccination programme would not be seen for another 30 years or so. But it should most certainly be introduced NOW. Both screening and vaccination are needed, and it's a disgrace that in 2008 Ireland has neither.

Darragh29

Breezer wrote: »

Oh I'm not defending her pulling the programme, far from it. Note my last paragraph. Also my signature: I'm not exactly her biggest fan. I'm simply responding to the posters who have mentioned that the vaccine would eliminate the need for screening: it wouldn't, and the full effect of the vaccination programme would not be seen for another 25 years or so. But it should most certainly be introduced NOW. Both screening and vaccination are needed, and it's a disgrace that in 2008 Ireland has neither.

Ok, I accept what you say. So what solution have FG got for this problem???

Breezer

Darragh29 wrote: »

Ok, I accept what you say. So what solution have FG got for this problem???

Enda Kenny wrote:

http://www.finegael.ie/news/index.cfm/type/details/nkey/35785/pkey/653/

The amount of money that will be saved is less than €10m, and that is before one factors in the savings that will derive from the illnesses prevented. At a time when HSE managers pay has gone up by €96m in 3 years and bonus payments of over €1m per annum are standard, the mind boggles at the decision making processes that underpin our health system.

Fine Gael's solution fits in with its wider policies on public service reform, which can be found in more detail here and here, and which will be set down in various policy documents to be published in the next few months in anticipation of an early general election.

Darragh29

Breezer wrote: »

Fine Gael's solution fits in with its wider policies on public service reform, which can be found in more detail here and here, and which will be set down in various policy documents to be published in the next few months in anticipation of an early general election.

More politically centered bullsh*t Breezer. I don't appreciated being fobbed off to two well pre-prepared links and a vague reference to some lossy future b*ll**** forum that is waiting for an early general election.

WHAT IS YOUR SOLUTION?? If you haven't got a well thought out rational and logical reply, that makes sense to me, you have no right to speak here in my opinion. Either raise the game, or else get off the pot. You represent the opposition, yet you have acted exactly like I would expect tthe current government to react, quoting policy documents, aged discussions, and making some hopeless reference to some future discussion about a future meeting about a future committee that might make a future decsion.

Our forefathers must be spinning in their graves in Glasnevin, seeing all that they died for, being sacrificed so lightly by your political ilk, talking about change while giving us a nod and a wink and "ah sure we'll fix it" smile.

This is why you speak for a party that is not in government. Despite a very recent general election, you represent more of the same endless bulls*it that has us worn down to the point where we don't even want to protest anymore, because we are sick of listening to you, we are sick of listening to your selfish self promotion, which has nothing to offer this country but more of the same auld codding, the same old codespeak and the same old waffle and b*ll**** that we now want to shackle firmly to the past...

ednwireland

mary harney (spit) said on rte 1 this morning that the vaccine costs €600 a shot. and therefore would cost around 14 million (hastily adding that money wasnt the reason) then when pressed she said that because the hse needed a new computer system to administer it it was a money issue. i stopped listening after that i actually couldnt listen to her BS anymore. muppets the lot of them. i dint think they had a sensible policy between them in 1997 and nothing has changed.

actually thats an insult to muppets so apologies to real true muppets who would run the country better

14 million cut from vacccination 1.65 billion bailout to builders of crappy estates ( hopefully the eu will stop that one as state aid) hmmmmmmm wonder wher their priorities lie (to parlon springs to mind whats he got on them)

asdasd

I may be voting Fine Gael. First time.

oscarBravo

Darragh29 wrote: »

If you haven't got a well thought out rational and logical reply, that makes sense to me, you have no right to speak here in my opinion.

With all due respect to your opinion, you don't get to decide who has a right to speak here. Disagree with others' opinions if you wish, but tone down the rhetoric.

Darragh29

oscarBravo wrote: »

With all due respect to your opinion, you don't get to decide who has a right to speak here. Disagree with others' opinions if you wish, but tone down the rhetoric.

Point taken, but he is claiming to represent a politcal alternative here and as a voter, I'm merely pointing out the fact that in my opinion as a voter, it isn't open to him to contribute in the manner in which he has done above and not expect to be pulled up on it. That's what has us in this mess, coded speak that answers nothing and b*ll**** waffle. We've had enough of that...

Zombrex

I've said it before and I'll say it again, the problem with FF is the Irish people who voted for them.

It is a bit rich for a lot of FF supporters to now be turning around and getting annoyed at them (and there are plenty of my extended family and friends who are doing this now) while happily voting them into power for the last ten years.

They have completely mismanaged the country, propping up the economy by building it on a property boom that couldn't and wouldn't last. Even if the world wasn't going into a economic crisis Ireland would have been having our own. The problems we are facing now are not helped by world economics, but they aren't caused by them either.

The most annoying thing is that people have been pointing this out for years!!. What exactly did all the FF supporters think when they voted these idiots into power in 2002 and 2007? That they were economic masterminds who had some how managed to make money appear out of thin air?

As for the HSE it is a total mess, and it needs serious long term over haul. And a proper one at that, not the plug a leak here, plug a leak there type that Harney has been doing for the last few years. But short sighted planning is the calling card of this government, always has been. The time to really shake up the HSE was 10 years ago when the government was still flush with cash. But again that was when FF could do no wrong because everyone though they were causing the boom times.

Seriously, it makes you want to emigrate.

Darragh29

Wicknight wrote: »

I've said it before and I'll say it again, the problem with FF is the Irish people who voted for them.

It is a bit rich for a lot of FF supporters to now be turning around and getting annoyed at them (and there are plenty of my extended family and friends who are doing this now) while happily voting them into power for the last ten years.

They have completely mismanaged the country, propping up the economy by building it on a property boom that couldn't and wouldn't last. Even if the world wasn't going into a economic crisis Ireland would have been having our own. The problems we are facing now are not helped by world economics, but they aren't caused by them either.

The most annoying thing is that people have been pointing this out for years!!. What exactly did all the FF supporters think when they voted these idiots into power in 2002 and 2007? That they were economic masterminds who had some how managed to make money appear out of thin air?

As for the HSE it is a total mess, and it needs serious long term over haul. And a proper one at that, not the plug a leak here, plug a leak there type that Harney has been doing for the last few years. But short sighted planning is the calling card of this government, always has been. The time to really shake up the HSE was 10 years ago when the government was still flush with cash. But again that was when FF could do no wrong because everyone though they were causing the boom times.

Seriously, it makes you want to emigrate.

To be honest with ya, although you are correct, this argument has been done to death by now. What we need to do is see where we are going to get our change from.

djpbarry

Darragh29 wrote: »

Our forefathers must be spinning in their graves in Glasnevin...

And you accuse others of spouting bull****?

jmayo

Biggins wrote: »

For the record, I left them DURING the roaring Celtic Tiger. I could see things were being mismanaged to say the least and I could see the writing on the wall to come...

Sadly, I was proven right.

Fair enough at least you had the decency to pull the plug before the last election.
It is the rats like Behan who are now jumping ship I have no repsect for.

I think FG should come out and say they will take a hacket to the HSE, but also the other state bodies that are overmanned in certain ares.
They would get a lot of respect from most people for having the balls to do it, but they will then get hammered by the public sector union lobby, ff, PDs and God bless us the labour party.

nacho libre

Wicknight wrote: »

I've said it before and I'll say it again, the problem with FF is the Irish people who voted for them.

It is a bit rich for a lot of FF supporters to now be turning around and getting annoyed at them (and there are plenty of my extended family and friends who are doing this now) while happily voting them into power for the last ten years.

They have completely mismanaged the country, propping up the economy by building it on a property boom that couldn't and wouldn't last. Even if the world wasn't going into a economic crisis Ireland would have been having our own. The problems we are facing now are not helped by world economics, but they aren't caused by them either.

The most annoying thing is that people have been pointing this out for years!!. What exactly did all the FF supporters think when they voted these idiots into power in 2002 and 2007? That they were economic masterminds who had some how managed to make money appear out of thin air?

As for the HSE it is a total mess, and it needs serious long term over haul. And a proper one at that, not the plug a leak here, plug a leak there type that Harney has been doing for the last few years. But short sighted planning is the calling card of this government, always has been. The time to really shake up the HSE was 10 years ago when the government was still flush with cash. But again that was when FF could do no wrong because everyone though they were causing the boom times.

Seriously, it makes you want to emigrate.

I couldn't disagree with more. That intrepid caped crusader Bertie were he to take the reins again would solve all our ills. The economy was in a fine state when he left. The brains trust of Ireland still seek advice from the all knowing one.

That dig at Cowen suggests that Cowan must have put pressure on Bertie the great to resign.

Breezer

Darragh29 wrote: »

More politically centered bullsh*t Breezer. I don't appreciated being fobbed off to two well pre-prepared links and a vague reference to some lossy future b*ll**** forum that is waiting for an early general election.

WHAT IS YOUR SOLUTION?? If you haven't got a well thought out rational and logical reply, that makes sense to me, you have no right to speak here in my opinion. Either raise the game, or else get off the pot. You represent the opposition, yet you have acted exactly like I would expect tthe current government to react, quoting policy documents, aged discussions, and making some hopeless reference to some future discussion about a future meeting about a future committee that might make a future decsion.

Our forefathers must be spinning in their graves in Glasnevin, seeing all that they died for, being sacrificed so lightly by your political ilk, talking about change while giving us a nod and a wink and "ah sure we'll fix it" smile.

This is why you speak for a party that is not in government. Despite a very recent general election, you represent more of the same endless bulls*it that has us worn down to the point where we don't even want to protest anymore, because we are sick of listening to you, we are sick of listening to your selfish self promotion, which has nothing to offer this country but more of the same auld codding, the same old codespeak and the same old waffle and b*ll**** that we now want to shackle firmly to the past...

I'm not entirely sure what you want me to say. "Coded speak"? You asked for a solution and I presented what Fine Gael has proposed, which includes examples of where money is being wasted, and a cost saving plan targeting the HSE and the public service at large, details of which are available in the documents I linked to. This plan would enable, among other things, €10 million to be expended on a vaccination programme for HPV. That is Fine Gael's solution. Out of interest, did you read those links?

You appear, from the tone of your posts, to have wanted to have a go at me from the moment I first posted. While I have no objection to you questioning what I say, I find it somewhat bemusing that you are looking for a "rational and logical reply" when I would think that is exactly what I provided: a general synopsis of a policy backed up by more detailed reference.

Fizman

This is being dicussed on Joe Duffys radio programme at the minute.

Darragh29

Breezer wrote: »

I'm not entirely sure what you want me to say. "Coded speak"? You asked for a solution and I presented what Fine Gael has proposed, which includes examples of where money is being wasted, and a cost saving plan targeting the HSE and the public service at large, details of which are available in the documents I linked to. This plan would enable, among other things, €10 million to be expended on a vaccination programme for HPV. That is Fine Gael's solution. Out of interest, did you read those links?

You appear, from the tone of your posts, to have wanted to have a go at me from the moment I first posted. While I have no objection to you questioning what I say, I find it somewhat bemusing that you are looking for a "rational and logical reply" when I would think that is exactly what I provided: a general synopsis of a policy backed up by more detailed reference.

I read the links and as I've already said, neither document does set out exactly where the savings will be made. There is a problem on the current expenditure side that can only be effectively resolved by a taking a chainsaw to staff numbers. FG says that it will:

(1) Cut out avoidable waste.

(2) Change the way our finances are managed.

(3) Implement "tough but fair" measures to stabilise borrowing

(4) Start the structural changes needed to root out waste and inefficiency

Where exactly is the "avoidable waste" that is being spoken about above??? How is changing how our finances are managed, going to bring about a saving??? What are the "tough but fair" measures suggested above??? What structural changes will FG be implementing that will apparently root out waste and efficiency???

We are hearing a lot about "change" lately, but what I want to know is what exactly are FG going to change??? And unless it ENFORCES an immediate cessation of payment of ALL bonuses to HSE gravy train passengers and a cull of AT LEAST 10% of HSE staff through an immediate redundancy program, we are wasting our time.

Breezer

Darragh29 wrote: »

Where exactly is the "avoidable waste" that is being spoken about above??? How is changing how our finances are managed, going to bring about a saving??? What are the "tough but fair" measures suggested above??? What structural changes will FG be implementing that will apparently root out waste and efficiency???

We are hearing a lot about "change" lately, but what I want to know is what exactly are FG going to change??? And unless it ENFORCES an immediate cessation of payment of ALL bonuses to HSE gravy train passengers and a cull of AT LEAST 10% of HSE staff through an immediate redundancy program, we are wasting our time.

Did you read the 26 page PDF that accompanied Bruton's article? It outlined several areas where money is being wasted and elaborated on the measures Fine Gael would be taking. Fine Gael has consistently opposed HSE bonuses in the Dáil, arguing that bonuses should be based on performance, and that the state of our health service can hardly be considered a good performance. This is in line with its other policies on the overall public service, such as implementing a pay freeze for all public servants earning over €50,000, cutting civil service numbers by 5,000, and immediately reducing the number of quangos by at least 30.

Gandalf23

Just saw the latest on this on the RTE website ... "The Minister for Health, Mary Harney, has told the Dáil that she hoped the cervical cancer vaccine would be introduced as soon as possible, maybe by 2010."

Full article

bigstar

Breezer wrote: »

Just to clarify this from a medical perspective, HPV has a large number of serotypes (subgroups), and the vaccine does not cover all of these. Additionally, there are other causes of cervical cancer. Therefore, while it is between 80% and 100% effective against the serotypes it covers (which are the ones most likely to cause cancer), it is only about 70% effective overall.

Add to this the fact that the vaccine can only prevent new infections from occurring, not treat any existing cases (which may not yet be symptomatic but could go on to cause cancer), and the fact that the vaccine was only going to be given to girls aged 11-12, when the average age of onset of cervical cancer is between the ages of 25 and 40, and you can see why Harney is still putting emphasis on the necessity for a screening programme.

That said, this is a terrible decision and a major step backwards for the health service. We're so far behind other developed countries in both our vaccination and screening programmes that it's beyond a joke. The announcement of the HPV vaccine a few months back was the best thing I've heard from the Department of Health since the smoking ban, and to hear that it's been cancelled has left me speechless to be honest.

your right the vaccine is not 100% effective, but it is preventative, which saves money long term ie longer than the five year vision most politicians have in this country. also it must be given before a girl is sexually active to work which is why it must be given to 12/13 year olds. the fact is this will save lives, and also allow women who might otherwise contract cervical cancer a greater chance at having children. this isnt the type of thing that should be withheld because of budgetary concerns. everyone should email minister harney or their local td to express their concerns.

Breezer

bigstar wrote: »

your right the vaccine is not 100% effective, but it is preventative, which saves money long term ie longer than the five year vision most politicians have in this country. also it must be given before a girl is sexually active to work which is why it must be given to 12/13 year olds. the fact is this will save lives, and also allow women who might otherwise contract cervical cancer a greater chance at having children. this isnt the type of thing that should be withheld because of budgetary concerns. everyone should email minister harney or their local td to express their concerns.

Agreed. Again, just to clarify, my original post was to point out that there is also a need for screening. I was in no way defending Harney or this disgraceful decision.

galwayrush

I hope this shower in goverment get totally wiped out at the next general election.they spent the last 10 years self congratulating themselves while they drove the country down the toilet, now the **** hits the fan, Harney thinks 14 million is too expensive to save many women's lives in the future, but she has no problem throwing undeserved bonus money at the HSE.:mad:

Fionnanc

The vaccine isn't 100pc effective even against the subtypes of HPV it targets. Vaccines in general rely on herd immunity, ie if greater than 98% are vaccinated against an infectious illness even though the vaccine is ineffective in some the infectious agent will not be able to survive long in the fully vaccinated community to infect the vaccine failures.
Now, witness the scare with the MMR vaccine, an uptake of less than 75% and a measles outbreak in Dublin(thousands of cases) killing 3 kiddies, cripling several more.
If this vaccine doesn't have sufficient uptake it is a waste of money, and its not cheap like MMR.
Still, shouldn't have been cancelled
And there will be a scare story with this vaccine, there is with every medical treatment, usually just based on coincidence and hysteria.
Tough choice, family holiday or vaccine for daughters? The vaccine should be made available with means testing. For example it is free with medical card, with various levels of grants towards the cost for others based on incomes.
Lastly its great to live in a country where the cervical vaccine program is cut but not the MMR, polio, tetanus vacciness, etc.
I agree the builders' bailouts should have been never offered.
As a more general note, most of our European neighbours with "better systems" pay much higher tax for this.
I would gladly pay an extra 1% tax(or more) on my income to fund these services if waste is minimised.

Darragh29

Fionnanc wrote: »

...ie if greater than 98% are vaccinated against an infectious illness even though the vaccine is ineffective in some the infectious agent will not be able to survive long in the fully vaccinated community to infect the vaccine failures.

Since when was cervical cancer an "infectious agent"??? Every word you have posted above refers to infectious diseases as opposed to acquired diseases and is irrelevant to this discussion...

old boy

some one in the final stages of this type of cancer recieves three particular injections each week each jab costs 800 lids, where is the savings,

djpbarry

galwayrush wrote: »

I hope this shower in goverment get totally wiped out at the next general election.they spent the last 10 years self congratulating themselves...

...and getting re-elected.

Darragh29 wrote: »

Since when was cervical cancer an "infectious agent"???

Human papillomavirus (HPV) infection is a cause of nearly all cases of cervical cancer. Approximately 130 HPV types have been identified and about 30-40 types are typically transmitted through sexual contact.

nacho libre

old boy wrote: »

some one in the final stages of this type of cancer recieves three particular injections each week each jab costs 800 lids, where is the savings,

i agree the prime consideration should be cost in such situations. it would be much more cost effective to let the patients die quicker. to hell with trying to find savings by reducing the amount of quangos in existence and getting rid of middle managers in the HSE. the cost of patients' palliative care is the real problem

xOxSinéadxOx

Fizman wrote: »

This is being dicussed on Joe Duffys radio programme at the minute.

joe duffy should be fired

lostexpectation

any chance this drug being new that its ok to hold off, to see how it goes elsewhere