SIMI again

Climate Expert

Imported cars and roadside selling are destroying their industry.

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/financial-crisis/collapse-of-sales-drives-car

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industry-into-crisis-1521704.html

They talk about inaction in tackling these problems. What about the inaction they've showed over cartels and an industry rife with car clocking.

Gary ITR

They can **** right off as far as I'm concerned

ismynametoolong

Onkle wrote: »

They can **** right off as far as I'm concerned

Yeah your right tell the 60,000 or so employed in the motor industry to go get new jobs we dont need garages here anymore when we can import from all four corners of the world someones elses used and understandably cheaper crap due to government policy in not having a vehicle certification agency.

Bandara

ismynametoolong wrote: »

Yeah your right tell the 60,000 or so employed in the motor industry to go get new jobs we dont need garages here anymore when we can import from all four corners of the world someones elses used and understandably cheaper crap due to government policy in not having a vehicle certification agency.

its called competition and an open market.

If you can't cope with it then you shouldnt be in it.

How about SIMI actually did something about their policies and members practices instead of blaming everyone else for their obvious failings

eringobragh

Hammertime wrote: »

its called competition and an open market.

If you can't cope with it then you shouldnt be in it.

How about SIMI actually did something about their policies and members practices instead of blaming everyone else for their obvious failings

Agreed..Nail on the head

tw0nk

eringobragh wrote: »

Agreed..Nail on the head

+1

smash

"It said inaction by the government and agencies responsible for pursuing unregistered vehicles and illegal roadside car-sellers was endangering motoring jobs. SIMI's director general Alan Nolan said in the current economic climate, the "level and visibility of illegal roadside-selling and the equally large-scale and visible illegal imports" could not be tolerated."

There's loads of SIMI dealers selling cars without VRT included in the price! And as for "illegal roadside car-sellers" - everyone has to start somewhere don't they and a little competition is good!

leon8v

steve06 wrote: »

And as for "illegal roadside car-sellers" - everyone has to start somewhere don't they and a little competition is good!

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While I would agree with you to some extent that everyone has to start somewhere and the competition is good. I would disagree that illegall roadside selling is good.
People illegally selling cars from the roadside are not running a legitimate business. Now I know we can all sell our cars privately and that is fine but it is pretty obvious that some people are running a business from their front garden or the side of the road. I think the argument here from legitimate dealers is that they shouldnt be allowed to run a business without setting up as a buiness and playing on a level playing field. And this wouldnt be only main franchised dealers complaining. A lot of used car only dealers would have a problem with someone selling cars a hundred yards down the road undercutting prices becuse they dont have any business overheads to pay and everything is "sold as seen".
BTW I am not standing up for the SIMI here, I just see where this argument is coming from. The same would apply in any business. I am sure legitimate trades people have a problem with rouge plumbers electricians etc and so on.

ismynametoolong

Hammertime wrote: »

its called competition and an open market.

If you can't cope with it then you shouldnt be in it.

How about SIMI actually did something about their policies and members practices instead of blaming everyone else for their obvious failings

Firstly i dont work in the motor industry but do derive my living from it all be it indirectly .Competition is all fine and dandy when the playing field is level and with regard to imports for alarge number of reasons it is simply not level. Yes there were plenty of people who made plenty of money in the last 10 yrs
but did that not happen in every walk of life. Tarring the whole industry and jumping on the band wagon over the complaints of a few is no basis for an argument if your not happy with a dealer go somewhere else there is plenty looking for business but probably not trade ins :rolleyes:

smash

ismynametoolong wrote: »

Competition is all fine and dandy when the playing field is level and with regard to imports for alarge number of reasons it is simply not level.

load of crap... better deal to the consumer, higher spec cars, cheaper for the dealer too.

Now if dealers don't like that then they've got 3 options:

1 - start selling imports themselves
2 - lobby the distributors to get higher spec cars like they sell in the UK
3 - lobby the government about the VRT, tax bands, higher VAT - and do it properly!

but they're not doing anything - they're sitting back and letting SIMI pretend to do some work, SIMI do f**k all except target the public and the small time dealers and kick up a fuss about nothing - these are the same group that backed up a large dealership earlier this year who were caught clocking cars!

If SIMI have an issue with road side dealers they should just promote their members more so that they're portrayed as being a reputable company to deal with but they're not, they're crying about these small dealers selling cheap cars and ignoring the fact that their own dealers are still overcharging a lot.

"SIMI used car sale" - I'm sorry, has anyone seen 1 good deal at all there?

Hellrazer

steve06 wrote: »

1 - start selling imports themselves
2 - lobby the distributors to get higher spec cars like they sell in the UK
3 - lobby the government about the VRT, tax bands, higher VAT - and do it properly!

+1
I suggested this yesterday at a management meeting.Do you know how many sales of new Accords Honda lost this year due to UK imports??
It was something like 113 the last report I got.All because Honda had stock of the old model and wouldnt release the new one till they were gone :rolleyes::rolleyes:

Now they release the new one in November with the old stock still sitting up there.Talk about shutting the gate after the horse has bolted!!!!

At least Im selling a few new Speedos for them in Kph

smash

Hellrazer wrote: »

It was something like 113 the last report I got.All because Honda had stock of the old model and wouldnt release the new one till they were gone :rolleyes::rolleyes:

sure look at Citroen too... New C4 launched and no mention of it because they probably have old stock to get rid of - it's crazy!

KhanTheMan

The problem is nopthing to do with roadside sellers at all.
Its to do with the high price of cars in Ireland due to VRT etc.

for example i really need to buy a new car but i havent yet decided if im going to emigrate to the uk or not. So i have no intention of buying a car here because even if i bring it over with me i have paid an absolutly penal amount of tax on it here. Id rather drive my current car til then.

Also you never know what Jogn Gormley is going to pull out of his ass next. Another tax no doubt.

leon8v

steve06 wrote: »

load of crap... better deal to the consumer, higher spec cars, cheaper for the dealer too.

Now if dealers don't like that then they've got 3 options:

2 - lobby the distributors to get higher spec cars like they sell in the UK

Distributors would have no problem getting in higher spec cars like the UK if they sold new. Irish people are reluctant to spec up new cars as it cost more due to the fact there is VRT on the extras. In the UK there isnt. When these cars are brought in second hand from the UK, in most cases, the extras arent declared and they are VRT'd on the basis on a standard car so automatically appear better value than the Irish car.
If the distributor adds extras "as standard" on the cars they usually have to increase the OMSP anyway so the car anyway although sometimes it makes more sense to do it this way but so many Irish people dont want to pay for the extras when buying new.

leon8v

steve06 wrote: »

sure look at Citroen too... New C4 launched and no mention of it because they probably have old stock to get rid of - it's crazy!

How is it crazy? I personally wouldnt want to be stuck with stock of an older model, would you? I would try sell it first if I could.

Climate Expert

leon8v wrote: »

How is it crazy? I personally wouldnt want to be stuck with stock of an older model, would you? I would try sell it first if I could.

In a free market you would discount the old model heavily, cut your losses and introduce the new one. In Irelands stagnant car market they don't have to do that. End result is that the consumer loses out.

smash

leon8v wrote: »

How is it crazy? I personally wouldnt want to be stuck with stock of an older model, would you? I would try sell it first if I could.

yea, and if you went out tomorrow and bought a new car and then found out that in 1 month's time a new version was launched that you hadn't been told about because it was in a warehouse somewhere till they sold the old one - you'd go nuts!

leon8v

I dont think anyone is keeping it a secret. And there are facelifted C4's on the roads already.

javaboy

steve06 wrote: »

Now if dealers don't like that then they've got 3 options:

1 - start selling imports themselves
2 - lobby the distributors to get higher spec cars like they sell in the UK
3 - lobby the government about the VRT, tax bands, higher VAT - and do it properly!

Number 2 won't be sorted until you first sort out number 3. The manafacturers do lobby about VRT. And they lobby about tax bands. (Sometimes it even works but it's usually only small victories) But during the boom years who in govt. was really going to listen? The government were making a fortune off car sales. They might need to act now to kickstart the car business again.

Leon8v hit the nail on the head. While it might seem like there is a big demand for high spec models in Ireland from reading motoring forums+magazines, you have to bear in mind that you're among fellow car enthusiasts. A lot of buyers opt not to spec up even when they can because of the costs. Most people want a car to get them from A to B and front fogs, alloys and satnav simply aren't on everyone's shopping list.

If there was a big enough demand for high spec, the manafacturers would bring it in. After all there's probably a bigger profit margin on the crazy prices they charge for satnav than there is on the whole car. Until VRT is sorted out, that demand won't be significant enough to matter.

leon8v wrote: »

Distributors would have no problem getting in higher spec cars like the UK if they sold new. Irish people are reluctant to spec up new cars as it cost more due to the fact there is VRT on the extras. In the UK there isnt. When these cars are brought in second hand from the UK, in most cases, the extras arent declared and they are VRT'd on the basis on a standard car so automatically appear better value than the Irish car.
If the distributor adds extras "as standard" on the cars they usually have to increase the OMSP anyway so the car anyway although sometimes it makes more sense to do it this way but so many Irish people dont want to pay for the extras when buying new.

+1. Sums it up perfectly. Dealers simply can't operate outside the law they way private importers do when they don't declare their upgrades to customs. So it's not a level playing ground for comparison.

smash

leon8v wrote: »

I dont think anyone is keeping it a secret. And there are facelifted C4's on the roads already.

really? http://www.citroen.ie/ I don't see it there....

Anan1

leon8v wrote: »

And there are facelifted C4's on the roads already.

steve06 wrote: »

really? http://www.citroen.ie/ I don't see it there....

Perhaps they're UK imports?;)

galwaytt

ismynametoolong wrote: »

Yeah your right tell the 60,000 or so employed in the motor industry to go get new jobs we dont need garages here anymore when we can import from all four corners of the world someones elses used and understandably cheaper crap due to government policy in not having a vehicle certification agency.

pardon my french, but bull****.

We import every single vehicle on the road. We make, manufacture, none. (excluding bodies by commercial and coach builders, btw...). We are not going to give up driving.......no matter what the Greens say. So, irrespective, there are jobs there in the industry to be had. All of them require service, maintenance, repair, parts, accessories, etc. More jobs there.

The comment on 'certification' is nonsense. All cars sold here, homologated under EU law, are legal. We do not have, nor do we need, 'certification'. Even if we did some banana extra 'layer' of bureacracy - who's going to pay for it ? Are you going to add that to the car prices as well ? Besides, there's a name for that mechanism - 'protectionism', and that's illegal.

If you think imports are crap quality, can you imagine what the likes of UK or German trade would think of the 'quality' of our used veh's, if we were to import into their market....?

E92

leon8v wrote: »

Distributors would have no problem getting in higher spec cars like the UK if they sold new. Irish people are reluctant to spec up new cars as it cost more due to the fact there is VRT on the extras.

Nail on head.

Irish people have very little interest in cars, as is exampled when you see all the cars with pint sized engines and shiny wheel trims, and loads of blanked out buttons on the dash.

The UK is very different, they like high spec cars over there with decent sized engines. The best thing about the Brits is the way they love their cars so much, interesting stuff like GTIs, STIs, M3s etc sell in good volumes over there, and are desirable cars in the used market.

Here you'd want to give away a free house or something to try and shift anything other than the boggo poverty spec crap that a lot of people are content with:mad:.

At the end of the day, if the importers thought we wanted more spec on our cars then you can bet your left leg they'd bring it in. All they care about is money and they know what sells and what doesn't, so they're not going to bring in stuff nobody wants, and they've figure we're content with things like aircon, alloy wheels, climate control etc being omitted so that's why they do it, no point in making the cars more expensive to include items people are not prepared to pay for.

And I do think that the reductions in VRT are having a positive effect on spec levels, all new Fiestas are coming with alloy wheels as standard for example, the equivalent model in the UK has steel wheels as standard.

alias no.9

The SIMI set the OMSP that the revenue use to calculate VRT. This has not come down in reaction to the declining market which means that the SIMI are distorting the market. While all of this is going on, they refuse to write down the value of their used stock creating a mexican standoff with potential buyers such that nothing is selling. Their failure to shift current stock means that at best they'll offer derisory trade prices but in most cases just won't entertain a trade in at all. This leaves private individuals with old cars they need to shift after buying a newer motor. A very effective way of selling privately is to park the car at the side of the road with a for sale sign, whatever about the illegalities of the practice under road safety and casual trading legislation as well as local authority bye-laws. The whole sorry mess is interconnected with the SIMI and their members are at the core of it.
Having said all of that, I have a serious problem with anyone selling multiple cars on the side of the road or selling car after car there. These are effectively running businesses and seeking to gain a competitive advantage by avoiding rent, rates and tax. This is also distorting the market and no different to what the SIMI is doing with the OMSP. They should be treated differently to an individual trying to offload a single car that they no longer need or use.

jetfiremuck

Problem is too many cars available for the market to absorb.Look at Tesco prices in the south v the north. Same for cars. People are not idiots. Look at Aldi and Lidl and what they did to Tesco. How did they expand and grab market share? They created a niche that people responded to and the major chains had to follow on or lose out. People will go where they can save money pure and simple.

mcwhirter

Scrap the VRT and there would be no need to import

leon8v

alias no.9 wrote: »

The SIMI set the OMSP that the revenue use to calculate VRT.

I am not sure this is totally correct. The revenue set the OMSP themselves for second hand cars. They have a few guys down in Roslare who pull numbers out of the air, or water or something. They may consult various different sources on them but they have the final say in it and they ultimately set it, not the SIMI.

Hellrazer

mcwhirter wrote: »

Scrap the VRT and there would be no need to import

Snowballs chance in hell of that happening.Government are making too much from it.
Those muppets would prefer to kill new the car market altogether.

And considering the way things are in the new car market it might just happen come January and then no one including the government will make a penny out of it.

ismynametoolong

QUOTE=galwaytt;57801827]pardon my french, but bull****.

The comment on 'certification' is nonsense. All cars sold here, homologated under EU law,
Correct but you failed to mention this is only the case for all NEW cars not imports !

The only reason we are not flooded with really cheap chineese imports
is because they are left hand drive if they had right hand drive cars like
Japan guaranteed we would have been flooded with them for years and I dont think too many of them currently meet EU type approval.

Currently in this market you can register anything and i mean anything provided it was previously registered in a country any where in the world and most importantly you pay the VRT.

So for argument sake and as an example I could bring in a 6 month old single seater TUC TUC or one of those cars that fold up on impact from China that meets no EU emission standard or crash test in left hand drive register it here and not have to NCT it until its four years old and this is the best bit if it fails the NCT but is operating to manufacturers spec it still passes.How can that be right !!
But as we are ( With the exception of the excesion states )to the best of my knowledge the only EU country without a vehicle certification agency then there must be no need for one !! because this is Ireland

mcwhirter

E92 wrote: »

Irish people have very little interest in cars, as is exampled when you see all the cars with pint sized engines and shiny wheel trims, and loads of blanked out buttons on the dash.

That is why you see people driving driving those kia's , hyundais and those horrible ssangyong thing, disgusting cars.

There would be no need to buy these if the proper car brands were sold at a decent price

E92

They now think that there will be fewer than 100,000 new car sales next year.

Last month car sales were down no less than 51% compared to October 07.

That is an absolute disaster.

I know some people are quick to blame the VRT changes, but the fact of the matter is that most cars have come down in price, some by very significant amounts, and in reality the collapse in car sales has very little to do with the VRT changes but a hell of a lot to do with the recession.

We would still be in this situation if we hadn't changed VRT, probably worse as most cars were dearer before, and the big problem at the moment is the amount of people in the private sector who have either lost their jobs, taking pay freezes or even pay cuts because they know if they don't that their jobs will be gone too, so right now people are far more worried about how much money they'll be getting next than what number plate their car bears.

If anything, I think end of the days of reg plate snobbery might be no bad thing, lots of cars go to the scrapyard well before their time, and I think that's wrong, but I genuinely feel sorry for the decent salesmen and women who stand to lose their jobs over something completely out of their control.