M6 - Galway City Ring Road [planning decision pending]

Sam Russell

Aontachtoir wrote: »

I'm not really sure that's the choice on offer. It seems unlikely that buying a fleet of electric buses is going to reduce traffic enough for them to run rapidly, reliably, and efficiently on Galway city streets, unless additional road infrastructure is put in place to allow the traffic that is already clogging the streets to flow elsewhere. Has the research been done to show that buying X buses will lead to a Y% decrease in congestion on city streets? Or are we just hoping that people will be willing to ride these buses in such extraordinary numbers that the Galway traffic will melt away enough to make buses as reliable and convenient as personal cars? If not, then the people of Galway will just be adding a few new electric buses to their car park.

I don't know what the people of Galway would prefer, of course. I know that I would prefer a transport infrastructure that lets me quickly and reliably travel in the comfort, privacy, and security of my own car from my front door to work and back or to anywhere else in the city, rain or shine, in dark dreary December or bright sunny July. An option to cycling safely if the weather is fine would be great, but is less important than being able to drive where I want, when I want. I suspect many people in Galway would feel similarly.

I was stuck on the M7 on Thursday evening because of an accident. There was no way out of it, because if there was, then everyone who could tried it until it too came to a complete stop or at best a slow crawl. It cost me two hours.

Buy the shiny buses, and put in bus-gates and bus lanes, and reduce public parking and enforce what is left. Build P&R just outside the city, and further out. Make the buses cheap or even free with a low cost bus pass.

Who wants to sit in a car in a stationary jam, while watching the buses sail past?

Aontachtoir

Aontachtoir wrote: »

I'm not really sure that's the choice on offer. It seems unlikely that buying a fleet of electric buses is going to reduce traffic enough for them to run rapidly, reliably, and efficiently on Galway city streets, unless additional road infrastructure is put in place to allow the traffic that is already clogging the streets to flow elsewhere. Has the research been done to show that buying X buses will lead to a Y% decrease in congestion on city streets? Or are we just hoping that people will be willing to ride these buses in such extraordinary numbers that the Galway traffic will melt away enough to make buses as reliable and convenient as personal cars? If not, then the people of Galway will just be adding a few new electric buses to their car park.

The bus connects program is a great start. It's not enough but if fully implemented there will be a spine of bus lanes/gates/priority access for the full width of the city with the Western Distributor Rd being the last part which should be added following the current review

Aontachtoir wrote: »

I don't know what the people of Galway would prefer, of course. I know that I would prefer a transport infrastructure that lets me quickly and reliably travel in the comfort, privacy, and security of my own car from my front door to work and back or to anywhere else in the city, rain or shine, in dark dreary December or bright sunny July. An option to cycling safely if the weather is fine would be great, but is less important than being able to drive where I want, when I want. I suspect many people in Galway would feel similarly.

Therein lies the issue. Too many people looking to do the exact same thing even after the capacity of the road network has been met.

Someone posted on another thread yesterday complaining about the traffic as he went on trips all through the day in his car. The fact that he was part of the problem seemed lost on him.

Aontachtoir

Deleted User wrote: »

The bus connects program is a great start. It's not enough but if fully implemented there will be a spine of bus lanes/gates/priority access for the full width of the city with the Western Distributor Rd being the last part which should be added following the current review

I have no objection to Bus Connects of itself, and think better public transport is a great idea. There will always be some people who want to travel on buses, and they should be catered for. However, it seems quite short-sighted to suggest that we can significantly reduce the capacity of several crucial roads in Galway without building relieving infrastructure to allow the remaining traffic to flow alongside the buses. Maybe I've misunderstood the plans for Bus Connects, and the idea is actually to build mostly new and segregated infrastructure for the buses as opposed to taking away infrastructure for cars, vans, and trucks, but if I understand it correctly, then the idea seems to be to try to force more traffic down narrower roads with the goal of making it miserable enough for drivers that taking the bus will no longer be a disadvantage. If that's the only way the bus can compete, then I wonder about the wisdom of that solution.

Deleted User wrote: »

Someone posted on another thread yesterday complaining about the traffic as he went on trips all through the day in his car. The fact that he was part of the problem seemed lost on him.

Saying someone is part of the problem because he is part of the traffic is missing the point, I think. By that logic, anyone on a bus in the traffic (or anyone in a vehicle of any kind) is also part of the problem. We're not in the 19th century any more. People expect (and should expect) to be able to freely travel around Ireland under their own steam. Traffic on the roads occurs when the roads don't have enough capacity to deal with the vehicles on them. Part of the solution will be offering alternatives in the form of public transport, certainly, but there will have to be capacity upgrades to the roads as well. It just seems silly to suggest that Galway has enough road capacity now to last it for decades to come. It clearly doesn't, and if the Bus Connects program goes ahead without the bypass or some other significant road investments, it will have even less.

Sam Russell

Aontachtoir wrote: »

I have no objection to Bus Connects of itself, and think better public transport is a great idea. There will always be some people who want to travel on buses, and they should be catered for. However, it seems quite short-sighted to suggest that we can significantly reduce the capacity of several crucial roads in Galway without building relieving infrastructure to allow the remaining traffic to flow alongside the buses. Maybe I've misunderstood the plans for Bus Connects, and the idea is actually to build mostly new and segregated infrastructure for the buses as opposed to taking away infrastructure for cars, vans, and trucks, but if I understand it correctly, then the idea seems to be to try to force more traffic down narrower roads with the goal of making it miserable enough for drivers that taking the bus will no longer be a disadvantage. If that's the only way the bus can compete, then I wonder about the wisdom of that solution.



Saying someone is part of the problem because he is part of the traffic is missing the point, I think. By that logic, anyone on a bus in the traffic (or anyone in a vehicle of any kind) is also part of the problem. We're not in the 19th century any more. People expect (and should expect) to be able to freely travel around Ireland under their own steam. Traffic on the roads occurs when the roads don't have enough capacity to deal with the vehicles on them. Part of the solution will be offering alternatives in the form of public transport, certainly, but there will have to be capacity upgrades to the roads as well. It just seems silly to suggest that Galway has enough road capacity now to last it for decades to come. It clearly doesn't, and if the Bus Connects program goes ahead without the bypass or some other significant road investments, it will have even less.

That is all well and good, but the reality is different.

The proposed bypass cannot be built and opened for decade. In a decade, the whole current provision of private motor cars will change fundamentally, and it is not necessarily the ICE vehicle changing to EV. The electric scooter could transform commuting for sub 5 km journeys, and allow longer commutes to park up and retrieve the little scooter from the boot.

Busconnects can be implemented within a few years with immediate results.

Solutions that did not work in the past will not work now and will not work in the future.

cgcsb

Aontachtoir wrote: »

I have no objection to Bus Connects of itself, and think better public transport is a great idea. There will always be some people who want to travel on buses, and they should be catered for. However, it seems quite short-sighted to suggest that we can significantly reduce the capacity of several crucial roads in Galway without building relieving infrastructure to allow the remaining traffic to flow alongside the buses. Maybe I've misunderstood the plans for Bus Connects, and the idea is actually to build mostly new and segregated infrastructure for the buses as opposed to taking away infrastructure for cars, vans, and trucks, but if I understand it correctly, then the idea seems to be to try to force more traffic down narrower roads with the goal of making it miserable enough for drivers that taking the bus will no longer be a disadvantage. If that's the only way the bus can compete, then I wonder about the wisdom of that solution.



Saying someone is part of the problem because he is part of the traffic is missing the point, I think. By that logic, anyone on a bus in the traffic (or anyone in a vehicle of any kind) is also part of the problem. We're not in the 19th century any more. People expect (and should expect) to be able to freely travel around Ireland under their own steam. Traffic on the roads occurs when the roads don't have enough capacity to deal with the vehicles on them. Part of the solution will be offering alternatives in the form of public transport, certainly, but there will have to be capacity upgrades to the roads as well. It just seems silly to suggest that Galway has enough road capacity now to last it for decades to come. It clearly doesn't, and if the Bus Connects program goes ahead without the bypass or some other significant road investments, it will have even less.

Don't think you get it, the aim isn't to move the same amount of traffic we have now to a different location but to reduce the amount of traffic we have now and move more people in a sustainable way. And you can only do that by reducing the space available to cars and increase the space available to sustainable modes that means handing over more road space to buses bikes and pedestrians.

Aontachtoir

Sam Russell wrote: »

The proposed bypass cannot be built and opened for decade. In a decade, the whole current provision of private motor cars will change fundamentally, and it is not necessarily the ICE vehicle changing to EV. The electric scooter could transform commuting for sub 5 km journeys, and allow longer commutes to park up and retrieve the little scooter from the boot.

Busconnects can be implemented within a few years with immediate results.

Solutions that did not work in the past will not work now and will not work in the future.

But roads did work in the past, and still work now. They opened up the country, gave people the freedom and mobility to live in desirable areas away from their work, and are completely irreplaceable for commerce and industry alike. Our historic problems in this country with roads have been massive underinvestment in our road network, and failure to deliver new roads along with new housing developments. Delivering BusConnects without compensating for the major drop in road capacity for the people that BusConnects routes do not work for or for the businesses that buses are not suitable for would repeat both of these mistakes, and would only worsen the traffic problem.

Roads with the capacity to handle the residential, commercial, and industrial requirements of a city always were and always will be an absolute necessity in our lifetimes. Electric scooters are simply not going to change that equation. Maybe in 50 years most things will be done by drone, or we'll just have flying cars. Until then, nearly everything important will travel by road.

We have to build the bypass to future-proof Galway. If you're right about the paradigm shift, then it will be the last piece of road infrastructure we ever need to deliver in Galway. If not, Galway's problems will only get worse, and we'll just have to build the bypass in two decades' time at an even higher price.

cgcsb wrote: »

And you can only do that by reducing the space available to cars and increase the space available to sustainable modes that means handing over more road space to buses bikes and pedestrians.

That sounds like an excellent way to strangle Galway even further. A sprawling, car-dependent town cannot be turned into a pedestrian and public transport paradise just by closing roads. People just aren't going to use public transport enough, and I can't see a critical mass of people walking, cycling, or scootering to work in a city where it rains six days out of seven.

donvito99

Aontachtoir wrote: »

Our historic problems in this country with roads have been massive underinvestment in our road network, and failure to deliver new roads along with new housing developments.

We invested billions in roads in the last 30 years and traffic is worse than ever. The Galway "bypass" will be no different.

Delivering BusConnects without compensating for the major drop in road capacity for the people that BusConnects routes do not work for or for the businesses that buses are not suitable for would repeat both of these mistakes, and would only worsen the traffic problem.

It would in fact lessen the traffic problem. There will always be traffic, as as soon as there is new road capacity it is immediately filled. Taking capacity away from private traffic increases overall throughput and reduces average journey times.

A sprawling, car-dependent town cannot be turned into a pedestrian and public transport paradise just by closing roads.

Galway is barely 11km from the wrong end of Knocknacarra to Roscam. Close one road through the city centre for buses only and have a decent run of bus only lanes on either side of the city centre and you have an excellent cross city bus route, for peanuts. The electric bicycle is going to make Galway into an even smaller city for those people blessed with a coat and some waterproof trousers (if they have shower facilities in work they'd probably have time to shower, shave, stick on the kettle and do up a fry by the time their next door neighbour and colleague arrives in their car).

People just aren't going to use public transport enough, and I can't see a critical mass of people walking, cycling, or scootering to work in a city where it rains six days out of seven.

It rains plenty in Dublin and 70% of people aren't driving into the city centre, so it absolutely can be done.

Aontachtoir

donvito99 wrote: »

We invested billions in roads in the last 30 years and traffic is worse than ever. The Galway "bypass" will be no different.

I really don't understand this argument. The significant increase in traffic is because of the massive increase in prosperity that went along with us finally beginning to invest in our roads. Was Ireland better off in the 80s? Investing in roads allowed people and businesses to move around the country, and unlocked massive economic benefits as a result. More money means more people can afford cars and nice houses in desirable locations. We have still not cleared our investment deficit.

We can't clear an investment deficit by not investing.

donvito99 wrote: »

It would in fact lessen the traffic problem. There will always be traffic, as as soon as there is new road capacity it is immediately filled. Taking capacity away from private traffic increases overall throughput and reduces average journey times.

My ignorance is showing - has this been demonstrated for Galway based on reliable real-world models in comparable cities?

donvito99 wrote: »

Galway is barely 11km from the wrong end of Knocknacarra to Roscam. Close one road through the city centre for buses only and have a decent run of bus only lanes on either side of the city centre and you have an excellent cross city bus route, for peanuts. The electric bicycle is going to make Galway into an even smaller city for those people blessed with a coat and some waterproof trousers (if they have shower facilities in work they'd probably have time to shower, shave, stick on the kettle and do up a fry by the time their next door neighbour and colleague arrives in their car).

That sounds great. What effect will this chosen route have on existing traffic levels?

donvito99 wrote: »

It rains plenty in Dublin and 70% of people aren't driving into the city centre, so it absolutely can be done.

That's also great. I support investment in public transport, be it Bus Connects, a Gluas, a GART, or whatever you want to call it, no matter how many billions it costs to bring Galway's PT up to Dublin's level. Dublin also has good road infrastructure outside the city centre and a robust orbital motorway to redistribute traffic travelling around the city. Why is a proper road along those lines not part of the solution for Galway?

Sam Russell

But Galway has never benefited from investment in PT. The QCB has never had a bus service over it. There is no proper bus service in Galway now. How about they try that for starters. It could be up and running before ABP has even finished looking at the bypass.

They have tried a bypass already - Bothar ns Dtreadbh. It did not work because of all the roundabouts. So they removed them, but that did not work either. They built a motorway (M17) to remove the jams at Claregalway. That did not work either.

So jams yesterday, jams today, and jams for ever. Cars are not the solution for cities.

donvito99

Aontachtoir wrote: »

That sounds great. What effect will this chosen route have on existing traffic levels?

Galway traffic is dreadful now and will continue to be dreadful with restrictions through the city centre and via the Salmon Weir bridge to prioritse buses.

The difference is hundreds more people will be using the same roadspace and journey times will drop dramatically for hundreds of people. This can be done for a tiny fraction of the cost of a "bypass".

Aontachtoir

Aontachtoir wrote: »

Why is a proper road along those lines not part of the solution for Galway?

Aontachtoir

Aontachtoir wrote: »

I have no objection to Bus Connects of itself, and think better public transport is a great idea. There will always be some people who want to travel on buses, and they should be catered for. However, it seems quite short-sighted to suggest that we can significantly reduce the capacity of several crucial roads in Galway without building relieving infrastructure to allow the remaining traffic to flow alongside the buses. Maybe I've misunderstood the plans for Bus Connects, and the idea is actually to build mostly new and segregated infrastructure for the buses as opposed to taking away infrastructure for cars, vans, and trucks, but if I understand it correctly, then the idea seems to be to try to force more traffic down narrower roads with the goal of making it miserable enough for drivers that taking the bus will no longer be a disadvantage. If that's the only way the bus can compete, then I wonder about the wisdom of that solution.

Not at all, its a perfect example of carrot and stick transport policy

The only place where road space will be taken away from cars is for the cross city link. This is because to enable bus priority/lanes and keep car lanes would involve wholesale demolition of many buildings from the hospital, by the court house, Eglington street, & college rd. That would never happen, so the lesser of two evils is to remove cars from that section.

For the Dublin rd a second bus lane is being provided and the existing lane is being extended. Both will go to the Clinic junction allowing free movement for buses from the Galway Clinic all the way to the Western Distributor rd.

Part of the other changes will include bus priority at junctions too so that cars will always be behind the buses after a green light where dedicated lanes can't be provided.

In addition, BE have stated that while the 409 showed what could be done (1.1 million passengers in 2014 and has risen steadily since, not bad considering population was 75,000 at the time) with high frequency routes that have priority measures, they would not increase frequency until there were additional measures.

The medium term plan for Galway calls for multiple routes at sub 10 min frequency. Once you have that and bus lanes/priority, the bus becomes a massive appealing option.

But buses are only one part of the solution. You also have permeability, priority and protection measures for active mobility options. Currently cycling in Galway is pretty dangerous and will remain so for the most part even after the additional infrastructure added through the BC program.

However, if the ring road gets cancelled, then the existing BC program will not be sufficient. At that point you need additional bus lanes and priority measures all through the city. In addition you also need an arterial network of fully connected, protected bike lanes of sufficient width to allow for safe over-taking.

All of these things will be happening while traffic jams get worse and worse because there is no more capacity for cars in Galway.

At this point the choice is between moving people or moving cars. With Galways population set to get to 120,000 by 2040 (a 50% increase) something different has to be done otherwise you will be looking at a traffic jam that start around 7am and finishes around 7pm, with a few slightly better hours in the middle

Aontachtoir

Deleted User wrote: »

That cycle can be stopped at the "urban sprawl" stage through proper planning. Unchecked and unplanned development is a feature of an inadequate planning system, not a good road system.

Deleted User wrote: »

The medium term plan for Galway calls for multiple routes at sub 10 min frequency. Once you have that and bus lanes/priority, the bus becomes a massive appealing option.

But buses are only one part of the solution. You also have permeability, priority and protection measures for active mobility options. Currently cycling in Galway is pretty dangerous and will remain so for the most part even after the additional infrastructure added through the BC program.

However, if the ring road gets cancelled, then the existing BC program will not be sufficient. At that point you need additional bus lanes and priority measures all through the city. In addition you also need an arterial network of fully connected, protected bike lanes of sufficient width to allow for safe over-taking.

All of these things will be happening while traffic jams get worse and worse because there is no more capacity for cars in Galway.

At this point the choice is between moving people or moving cars. With Galways population set to get to 120,000 by 2040 (a 50% increase) something different has to be done otherwise you will be looking at a traffic jam that start around 7am and finishes around 7pm, with a few slightly better hours in the middle

It's still not an either-or situation. Public transport investment is necessary, of course, but how on earth can a 50% increase in population be catered for by reducing road capacity in a city where everyone admits that there isn't anywhere near enough road capacity as it stands??

Either way, I guess it doesn't hugely matter. It increasingly sounds like the ring road will be cancelled. We can come back in 10 years and see whether the traffic in Galway has vanished like a bad dream because everyone is riding BusConnects or cycling or scootering etc etc to work, school, and the shops, or whether the traffic just continued to get worse after road space was removed for an ultimately under-utilised public transport system and further capacity increases were cancelled.

xckjoo

Aontachtoir wrote: »

It's still not an either-or situation. Public transport investment is necessary, of course, but how on earth can a 50% increase in population be catered for by reducing road capacity in a city where everyone admits that there isn't anywhere near enough road capacity as it stands??

There's enough road capacity for transport methods that are more efficient than cars. Single occupancy cars take up a lot of road space

spacetweek

Aontachtoir wrote: »

Either way, I guess it doesn't hugely matter. It increasingly sounds like the ring road will be cancelled. We can come back in 10 years and see whether the traffic in Galway has vanished like a bad dream because everyone is riding BusConnects or cycling or scootering etc etc to work, school, and the shops, or whether the traffic just continued to get worse after road space was removed for an ultimately under-utilised public transport system and further capacity increases were cancelled.

Aontachtoir, you are deeply stuck in 20th century thinking.
Transportation is mostly supply-side so whatever is built, people will use.
Building roads and facilitating car use is a choice not an inevitability.
Build roads, get car traffic.
Build public transport, get PT users.

Other cities (even in Ireland - there is way less car traffic in Dublin city centre compared to 10 years ago) have managed to make traffic vanish and Galway isn't special.

Aontachtoir

spacetweek wrote: »

Aontachtoir, you are deeply stuck in 20th century thinking.
Transportation is mostly supply-side so whatever is built, people will use.
Building roads and facilitating car use is a choice not an inevitability.
Build roads, get car traffic.
Build public transport, get PT users.

Other cities (even in Ireland - there is way less car traffic in Dublin city centre compared to 10 years ago) have managed to make traffic vanish and Galway isn't special.

Ever more people in this country need to get to ever more places, and we need a combination of better PT and better roads to handle it. I know it is fashionable at the moment to say roads aren't necessary, and that more PT will solve everything. I really would be delighted if closing roads across Galway for BusConnects without developing extra infrastructure slashes travel times for road users, because if it is repeated down in Cork it will make my drive to work much more pleasant.

From the way things are going, it sounds as though we are going to find out one way or the other. With any luck, this will be different to all the other times we cancelled road projects, and we won't be sitting around in a decade's time berating the government in place in 2021/2022 (whenever the plug is pulled) for not building a road that was very obviously needed. I will be delighted if that turns out to be the case.

Aontachtoir

Aontachtoir wrote: »

It's still not an either-or situation. Public transport investment is necessary, of course, but how on earth can a 50% increase in population be catered for by reducing road capacity in a city where everyone admits that there isn't anywhere near enough road capacity as it stands??

Its simple really, its all to do with the efficient use of existing space.

The example below shows the space taken up by 72 people using different modes of transport.



Now, if you wish to increase the amount of people that need to get through that space within X minutes, how do you do it. Lets say you go from 72 to 90 or to 110 or to 130. At 72, the entire capacity is exhausted using the car.

However, if you have wide enough foot paths, protected bike lanes, bus lanes and car lanes you gain a massive amount of capacity in terms of qty of people moved.



At the end of the day, no matter what way you slice it, there is only so much capacity on the city roads. You either (a) maintain priority for the private car and run at max capacity for most of the working day, or (b) you reduce the priority of the private car and assign priority and space to pedestrians, buses & bikes and have capacity to spare all through the day across multiple modes.

JW92

Aontachtoir wrote: »

My ignorance is showing - has this been demonstrated for Galway based on reliable real-world models in comparable cities?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2z7o3sRxA5g

This video came to mind about how increasing road capacity just creates more congestion through induced demand.

Aontachtoir

[Deleted User] wrote: »

At the end of the day, no matter what way you slice it, there is only so much capacity on the city roads. You either (a) maintain priority for the private car and run at max capacity for most of the working day, or (b) you reduce the priority of the private car and assign priority and space to pedestrians, buses & bikes and have capacity to spare all through the day across multiple modes.

I do understand the concept. My concern is whether this is realistic. It seems utopian to me to imagine that Ireland (and specifically Galway) is full of people who hate being able to drive directly from their home to their destination, and are secretly pining to drive instead to a P&R, wait for a bus, squeeze in next to a stranger as the bus slowly makes its way along the route to their stop, then walking the remaining few hundred metres to their work (before repeating the entire process again in reverse in the evening).

I'm sure some people really want to wait for the bus. It just seems far more likely to me that most people are going to stick with the convenience and comfort of their cars, and traffic will continue to get worse. And if people end up (reasonably) blaming a sudden chaotic explosion of bus lanes and road closures for the worsening traffic, that would see a major increase in political pressure to scrap these changes.

I understand that if everyone used buses and bikes, there would suddenly be enough road capacity in Galway, even after the population increases by 50%. But that will never happen. There isn't a city in the world where it does (or at least none in democratic countries), and Galway won't be the first. A realistic, lasting, workable solution has to work in the real world, and not just on paper.

Aontachtoir

Aontachtoir wrote: »

It just seems far more likely to me that most people are going to stick with the convenience and comfort of their cars, and traffic will continue to get worse.

Absolutely, private car traffic will get worse, until it reaches capacity and then people switch to another mode when its no longer convenient or comfortable to sit in traffic. This is nothing new and has happened in towns and cities all across the world, once capacity is reached people still need to go for A to B and those that can switch modes, do.

Aontachtoir wrote: »

And if people end up (reasonably) blaming a sudden chaotic explosion of bus lanes and road closures for the worsening traffic, that would see a major increase in political pressure to scrap these changes.

Unlikely as all measures were passed and adopted by GCC in addition to many multiples of reports and policies all across govt which no longer prioritize the private car as it is simply the least efficient mode to move large volumes of people across a network of routes.

Aontachtoir wrote: »

I understand that if everyone used buses and bikes, there would suddenly be enough road capacity in Galway, even after the population increases by 50%. But that will never happen. There isn't a city in the world where it does (or at least none in democratic countries), and Galway won't be the first. A realistic, lasting, workable solution has to work in the real world, and not just on paper.

This works in many towns and cities across the world, as mentioned already.

The only way to free up capacity on Galways roads for an extended period of time is

• Permeability for pedestrians and bike users
• Protected bike lanes, a full network
• Priority bus infrastructure (lanes, sequencing at lights etc)

Anything else is a stop gap solution that will be obsolete and result in the status quo within a few years of introduction

Pete_Cavan

Aontachtoir wrote: »

A realistic, lasting, workable solution has to work in the real world, and not just on paper.

Well that's the bypass plan out the window then so.

Aontachtoir

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Absolutely, private car traffic will get worse, until it reaches capacity and then people switch to another mode when its no longer convenient or comfortable to sit in traffic. This is nothing new and has happened in towns and cities all across the world, once capacity is reached people still need to go for A to B and those that can switch modes, do.

If people have stuck with their cars in spite of Galway's horrendous traffic, rather than switching en masse to the PT that is already available in Galway, exactly how miserable do they need to become?

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Unlikely as all measures were passed and adopted by GCC in addition to many multiples of reports and policies all across govt which no longer prioritize the private car as it is simply the least efficient mode to move large volumes of people across a network of routes.

Nearly every party in the Dáil supported water charges until they were actually introduced. How long would GCC hold out if the weight of opinion in Galway swung against haphazard cuts in road capacity that directly worsened traffic?

[Deleted User] wrote: »

This works in many towns and cities across the world, as mentioned already.

Again, I haven't seen any comparable city cited where an overwhelming majority travel by bus or bike rather than by car. Galway will not be the first, and thinking it will be is simply utopian.

[Deleted User] wrote: »

The only way to free up capacity on Galways roads for an extended period of time is

• Permeability for pedestrians and bike users
• Protected bike lanes, a full network
• Priority bus infrastructure (lanes, sequencing at lights etc)

Anything else is a stop gap solution that will be obsolete and result in the status quo within a few years of introduction

A solution which ignores reality - that private cars are and will remain the preferred method of transport for Irish people, that the growing city of Galway needs significant additional road capacity in any realistic scenario and especially if roads are being closed, and that political pressure can ultimately overturn any investment that doesn't have enough community support to make it politically viable - is obsolete before it is ever delivered.

There are other options - such as delivering better PT alongside an improvement in road capacity, to deliver a win-win outcome.

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

Well that's the bypass plan out the window then so.

Shame, because scrapping the bypass would make any serious move to reduce road capacity unfeasible.

Aontachtoir

Aontachtoir wrote: »

If people have stuck with their cars in spite of Galway's horrendous traffic, rather than switching en masse to the PT that is already available in Galway, exactly how miserable do they need to become?

Hit the nail on the head. The issue is PT is getting snarled up in car traffic. Giving PT priority makes it a far more appealing option.

Aontachtoir wrote: »

Nearly every party in the Dáil supported water charges until they were actually introduced. How long would GCC hold out if the weight of opinion in Galway swung against haphazard cuts in road capacity that directly worsened traffic?

The ring road won't be built this side of 2035 if it happens at all. By that point population in Galway will be over 100K. There simply isn't time to wait for the ring road (which likely will never be built) so by 2035 the private car will be at the bottom of the totem pole already.

Aontachtoir wrote: »

A solution which ignores reality - that private cars are and will remain the preferred method of transport for Irish people, that the growing city of Galway needs significant additional road capacity in any realistic scenario and especially if roads are being closed, and that political pressure can ultimately overturn any investment that doesn't have enough community support to make it politically viable - is obsolete before it is ever delivered.

There are other options - such as delivering better PT alongside an improvement in road capacity, to deliver a win-win outcome.

That ship has sailed I'm afraid.

Aontachtoir wrote: »

Shame, because scrapping the bypass would make any serious move to reduce road capacity unfeasible.

Quite the contrary

Have a read of this, see what you think

Aontachtoir

Deleted User wrote: »

Hit the nail on the head. The issue is PT is getting snarled up in car traffic. Giving PT priority makes it a far more appealing option.

What do you do if you end up with worse traffic and a minimal/insufficient increase in PT ridership?

Deleted User wrote: »

The ring road won't be built this side of 2035 if it happens at all. By that point population in Galway will be over 100K. There simply isn't time to wait for the ring road (which likely will never be built) so by 2035 the private car will be at the bottom of the totem pole already.

The private car won't be at the bottom of the totem pole this side of 2050. Although if Galway's traffic remains unmanageable, I guess we might not see the same population increase.

Deleted User wrote: »

That ship has sailed I'm afraid.

I don't know how to respond to that statement, as I have no idea what you're basing it on. The ship has sailed on any future investment in roads in Galway, ever? Because...?

Deleted User wrote: »

Have a read of this, see what you think

It looks great. How much would it cost to replicate Dublin's transport infrastructure in Galway? Presumably there would be an outer motorway of some sort to direct traffic around the city included in that package?

riddlinrussell

Aontachtoir wrote: »

What do you do if you end up with worse traffic and a minimal/insufficient increase in PT ridership?

The data simply doesn't suggest that would be the case, real traffic data world wide indicates that you build more roads, you get more cars, you build good, reliable PT and cycling networks, you get less cars.

The issue here is that you appear to, at a fundamental level, not believe this to be the case.

If we can't make changes to the current roads to improve PT/Cycling facilities because "It will cause traffic chaos" then we cannot demonstrate that effective change works in Galway the same way it does everywhere else.

You also said "How much would it cost to replicate Dublin's transport infrastructure in Galway?"

If it cost less than the currently stated cost of the ring road would you agree it should be done first?

What about the actual inevitable cost of the ring road by 2035, when it will undoubtedly have had to pass some increased rigour environmental studies, gone through numerous objections in court, have to justify its cost with potential factoring in of carbon value etc?

Galway is a smaller city by far than Dublin, and as has been said many times, a ring-road already exists (At capacity or not is immaterial as we are debating whether changing to a PT/Cycling led development strategy vs New Ring Road would relieve the capacity issues of the existing one).

It all boils down to a few things, cost, ease of construction and effectiveness.

Cost = Moderate cycling and PT interventions would be, at most, in the 10s of millions of pounds for Galway, if you wanted a total overhaul of the entire city and hinterlands maybe into the 100s of millions. This looks fairly favourable vs even the currently stated cost of the Bypass.

Ease of Construction = For the vast majority of 'hard' PT and cycling interventions; Protected Cycleways, continuous bus lanes, LTNs, Bus Priority signals etc. The council already has full authority to intervene without a full planning process/part 8/environmental studies etc. as they are authorised to modify road layouts almost entirely at their own discretion. Again favourable over the multi year saga of getting the Bypass through planning (also bypass could still be progressed through planning while all this goes on)

Effectiveness = Here you have two options, either act based entirely on current data from other cities, which are telling designers that 'more road == more cars' and 'better PT and Cycling == less cars' or you run some real world trials in Galway, pick a few of the main routes and put in place a high quality, well connected 6 month/1 year trial of your cycleways and PT, measure bus and bike use on the route before, during and after. Measure congestion before and during the trial and see what happens. If you're following the data then again PT/Cycling is looking favourable to progress first.

KrisW1001

I agree with pretty much all of that, but all-year round park+ride services need to be put in place for outer-suburban commuters before any removal of private-car capacity into the city. This shouldn’t be a difficult ask; like most councils, Galway is probably sitting on multiple suitable sites.

The people who have been left with no option for transport except private car should not be punished for Galway’s historic planning failures.

Aontachtoir

I've taken pains to stress in nearly every comment that I support significant additional investment in PT in Galway. I would be glad to see bus lanes, bike lanes etc progressed alongside expansions and improvements in road capacity.

What I don't like is this new quasi-religious insistence that any expansion of road capacity for private transport must be prevented, and a starry-eyed faith that more buses and bike lanes will see Galway's traffic problems fade away like a bad dream. I can't see how any workable solution ignores the need for better road connectivity around Galway.

I could very well be wrong. Maybe more PT will solve all the problems it hasn't yet solved, and closing roads in a city which is already choked with traffic and not building any additional road infrastructure as the population expands really is the right solution. If data on the ground proves me wrong (as you suggest, Riddlinrussell), then I will simply have to eat humble pie. But I am sceptical.

The cross city link will not be closing roads, only preventing private cars from entering those streets/roads. The roads will still be open to more sustainable modes of transport (buses, bikes, pedestrians etc).

When combined with the additional bus lanes going on the Dublin rd (2 lanes from the Hunstman to Galway Clinic) this will allow for reliable journey times for a high frequency service.

tharlear

What I don't like is this new quasi-religious insistence that any expansion of road capacity for private transport must be prevented, and a starry-eyed faith that more buses and bike lanes will see Galway's traffic problems fade away like a bad dream. I can't see how any workable solution ignores the need for better road connectivity around Galway.

Great point.


I think one thing I disagree with you on is that Galway will still expand, Look at any side road east of the Corrib and it is full of one off housing. The people in these houses will continue to drive their cars. Industrial expansion will take place between Galway airport to briarhill east/west, and Parkmore and Oranmore north/ south. The point where the original Galway bypass was meant to leave the m6 will be a new junction.

As you point out the people will vote, with their "feet" cars, and this type of development will led to more one off housing, more cars and more roads, but all on the east side of the river.

There is a lovely pictogram in an earlier post of cars people and buses. With busses everyone is sitting waiting for the bus that may come and the bus lane is empty, except for those who can afford a taxi.

Having looked at the quality of bike lanes on Seamus Quirk road, which mixes bikes and pedestrians, sets up bus passenger v cyclist crash point at ever bus stop, its a mess. Alot of work need to be done before you will convince even 20% of the population to cycle.

Those you appose the bypass need some massage other than we are going to force everyone to cycle, take a bus, or walk. you catch more fly's with honey than vinegar.

Pete_Cavan

tharlear wrote: »

Those you appose the bypass need some massage other than we are going to force everyone to cycle, take a bus, or walk. you catch more fly's with honey than vinegar.

That has nothing to do with anything tbh. If ABP reject the bypass application or overload it with conditions such that it isn't viable, or the actual cost leads to a government rethink, then all the honey in the world isn't going to make the bypass happen. It is not about opposing the bypass, it's about being realistic about its chances of happening and the effects it would have if it does happen.