M6 - Galway City Ring Road [planning decision pending]

dubhthach

Iwannahurl wrote: »

It's a minor detail in the present context, but all the same I'll check it out. It was said to me by somebody active in local community development around that time.

I always remember it as been City Council who were building it, from what I recall it dragged on for years which kinda matches what you see when you look at the Ordnance Survey aerial photo's from 1995, 2000 and 2005.

Aard

antoobrien wrote: »

There was also something about the possibility of a second parallel bridge beside the QB, which apart from impacting on a few of the university buildings - would also be smack bang in the middle of an SAC (the entire river/lake complex is covered).

There's no route that doesn't cross one.

The red route would not be introducing a new bridge or tunnel element to the SAC.

antoobrien

Aard wrote: »

The red route would not be introducing a new bridge or tunnel element to the SAC.

I was told yesterday by one of the project engineers that there would be a parallel bridge. Now I wish I'd taken a photo of it because it was clearly a second bridge.

dubhthach

Relevant route maps can be seen here, as it's pdf it's fairly trivial to just zoom in them:

http://www.n6galwaycity.ie/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/PC2_Board-6a-Possible-Road-Component-of-the-Ransport-Solution-Sheet-1-of-2.pdf

http://www.n6galwaycity.ie/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/PC2_Board-6b-Possible-Road-Component-of-the-Ransport-Solution-Sheet-1-of-2.pdf

antoobrien

dubhthach wrote: »

Relevant route maps can be seen here, as it's pdf it's fairly trivial to just zoom in them:

http://www.n6galwaycity.ie/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/PC2_Board-6a-Possible-Road-Component-of-the-Ransport-Solution-Sheet-1-of-2.pdf

http://www.n6galwaycity.ie/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/PC2_Board-6b-Possible-Road-Component-of-the-Ransport-Solution-Sheet-1-of-2.pdf

They had different, more detailed maps available at the consultation (should be online next week, after the second set of consultations) that had among other things potential junction types that are not present in the set of maps online.

Aard

Yes it's a little disappointing that no junctions are indicated on those maps. Junctions are a key part and can "make or break" a project like this. As I said in my previous analysis, a well designed/located junction can greatly mitigate against sprawl and suburbanisation, whereas a poorly designed/located one can exacerbate sprawl etc.

antoobrien

Aard wrote: »

Yes it's a little disappointing that no junctions are indicated on those maps. Junctions are a key part and can "make or break" a project like this. As I said in my previous analysis, a well designed/located junction can greatly mitigate against sprawl and suburbanisation, whereas a poorly designed/located one can exacerbate sprawl etc.

In summary apart from the red route (which gets confusing) junctions for the N roads on the east of the river. It was less clear what would happen on the west and it wasn't easy to examine the maps closely with so many people around.

Aard

The western end of the some of the routes also include a "link road" arrangement so that traffic can avoid the Upper Newcastle Road. I think that this is a clever device that could/should be used for all routes, even the red route.

2rkehij30qtza5

Aard wrote: »

Yes it's a little disappointing that no junctions are indicated on those maps. Junctions are a key part and can "make or break" a project like this. As I said in my previous analysis, a well designed/located junction can greatly mitigate against sprawl and suburbanisation, whereas a poorly designed/located one can exacerbate sprawl etc.

Junctions are marked on maps at public consultation.

Iwannahurl

Aard wrote: »

The western end of the some of the routes also include a "link road" arrangement so that traffic can avoid the Upper Newcastle Road. I think that this is a clever device that could/should be used for all routes, even the red route.

Looking at those graphics I find myself wondering, for example, what's to stop commuters driving out the Barna Road from the western suburbs, taking the "bypass" all the way to the eastern end, and then coming back into the "industrial" zone around Parkmore and Ballybrit?

Or what would stop them rat-running up the Tonabrucky direction to link up with the "link road" you describe?

Aard

^I'm not sure I understand what you mean...

veryangryman

Iwannahurl wrote: »

Looking at those graphics I find myself wondering, for example, what's to stop commuters driving out the Barna Road from the western suburbs, taking the "bypass" all the way to the eastern end, and then coming back into the "industrial" zone around Parkmore and Ballybrit?

I take the Athlone bypass from West to East daily and am still within town limits. What is your odd obsession against people who do this? You want them to spend an hour in traffic (or cycling or Public Transport before you say it).

I personally would use the bypass, get off at N84 junction and plod on towards Terryland with glee. In fact i cant wait for this to happen instead of the current situ where it takes as long to get from Doughiska to Terryland as it does to get from there to Monksland. I guess i'll burn in hell.

Iwannahurl

Aard wrote: »

^I'm not sure I understand what you mean...

This poster does:

veryangryman wrote: »

I take the Athlone bypass from West to East daily and am still within town limits. What is your odd obsession against people who do this? You want them to spend an hour in traffic (or cycling or Public Transport before you say it).

I personally would use the bypass, get off at N84 junction and plod on towards Terryland with glee. In fact i cant wait for this to happen instead of the current situ where it takes as long to get from Doughiska to Terryland as it does to get from there to Monksland. I guess i'll burn in hell.

We are told that the "bypass" is needed to take out "cars that don't want or need" to be in the city so that the existing infrastructure can be managed better:

L1011 wrote: »

Any traffic improvements for the city are nearly entirely unconnected to the bypass - and QBCs, cycle facilities etc are definitely part of the mix required for the city.

The bypass is needed as a bypass. Not a relief road for the city, it already has that, except its expected to carry masses of traffic around the city.

Yet already we have one poster who says he "can't wait" for an opportunity to use the "bypass" as a means of cross-town commuting.


Is this a unique perspective? I doubt it. My guess, based on observation of car commuter habits in Galway, is that there are many thousands of habitual car users in and around the city champing at the bit, barely able to wait for a new era of delay-free driving.


Why would anyone own a car and not want to use it?


The original bypass proposal, first mooted over twenty years ago when developers were minor gods and sprawl was political gold-dust, was to be the car commuter's cure-all.


I don't see much change of emphasis in the new plans. In fact, the more anecdotal reports I hear about the supposed "consultation" process, the more I begin to suspect that the "transport solution" aspect is mere window-dressing.


Boxes will be ticked with gay abandon, as this project continues. But in terms of what a "bypass" is really about, the real-world situation is that collective use determines function.


Take the proposed Green Route, for example. This starts at the R336 near Barna and joins the N6 somewhere near Coolagh.


At present car-based commuters "plod" into and across the city from Spiddal, Barna, Knocknacarra and environs. What would deter them from simply switching tack, heading on to the "bypass" and coming back into the east side of the city from the Coolagh direction?


And if in future thousands of motorists could and would do this "with glee" what will the effects be on (a) overall levels of car use and car dependence in the region, (b) car commuting within the city and (c) the potential for significant modal shift as required by national and EU policy as well as global imperatives such as the urgent need to mitigate climate change?

Chris_5339762

It'd have to happen at once. On the DAY the bypass opens, a big reconfiguration of the roads of Galway would have to take place to put in more bus lanes, better cycling infrastructure and less car space. I've often said that the bypass isn't the cure-all to Galways traffic problems but it'll make the city a much, much better place to live in. But it HAS to be done in conjunction with a major re-work of the town center and suburbs transportation... which I wouldn't trust Irish politicians and councillors to do properly.

Either way you need a way to get across Galway without having to interact with the rest of the town... the current system just doesn't have the capacity. Four bridge crossings, one of which is awful (near the Cathedral) and two of which are in the town center just can't hack it for a town of Galways size.

It needs to be multi-disciplinary. It shouldn't be an N road, it should be an M road to stop poor planning around it. And the councillors need to set it as the boundary of Galway, not as a place to sprawl development around. But thats a parochial thing, and sadly, probably won't happen.

dubhthach

Iwannahurl wrote: »

At present car-based commuters "plod" into and across the city from Spiddal, Barna, Knocknacarra and environs. What would deter them from simply switching tack, heading on to the "bypass" and coming back into the east side of the city from the Coolagh direction?

In which case they would bypass the core of the city, sounds like success to me. You end up removing traffic that shouldn't be within close proximity of city center (QCB is close proximity). My own opinion would be that as part of Outer bypass that bus lane be run over QCB in both directions and up over Sean Mulvoy road to the Dublin road. (connected to SQR buslane and extended westerward on WDR)

Of course if you were coming from Spidéal or na Forbacha or anywhere west of Bearna in Cois Fharraige you wouldn't need to backtrack you'd just drive straight onto the start of the green route.

If people want to drive westbound on WDR out of Knocknatallaght sure it's removes them from SQR, thus making dedicated buslanes over QCB more viable.

dubhthach

Chris_5339762 wrote: »

It shouldn't be an N road, it should be an M road to stop poor planning around it. And the councillors need to set it as the boundary of Galway, not as a place to sprawl development around. But thats a parochial thing, and sadly, probably won't happen.

Motoway with greenbelt either side of it, that would do, make the Greenbelt 5km thick on the outside. County council will love that

Iwannahurl

Chris_5339762 wrote: »

(1)It'd have to happen at once. On the DAY the bypass opens, a big reconfiguration of the roads of Galway would have to take place to put in more bus lanes, better cycling infrastructure and less car space.


(2)I've often said that the bypass isn't the cure-all to Galways traffic problems but it'll make the city a much, much better place to live in.


(3)But it HAS to be done in conjunction with a major re-work of the town center and suburbs transportation... which I wouldn't trust Irish politicians and councillors to do properly.


(4)Either way you need a way to get across Galway without having to interact with the rest of the town... the current system just doesn't have the capacity. Four bridge crossings, one of which is awful (near the Cathedral) and two of which are in the town center just can't hack it for a town of Galways size.


(5)It needs to be multi-disciplinary. It shouldn't be an N road, it should be an M road to stop poor planning around it. And the councillors need to set it as the boundary of Galway, not as a place to sprawl development around.


(6)But thats a parochial thing, and sadly, probably won't happen.

1. That is an utterly realistic scenario. On day one you'll have thousands of ecstatic motorists taking to the new road, and there they will stay. It's downright farcical for anyone to suggest that, once the bypass is opened and city streets are relieved of congestion, a substantial proportion of motorists will suddenly experience a Damascene conversion and will immediately switch to public transport, walking and cycling. What could possibly prompt them to do so?


As for bus lanes and the like, it is a physical impossibility to implement anything of that sort "on the day the bypass opens". In a city where it has taken 30-50 years for the Council to notice that children need to cross the road to get to school, what hope is there that they will have any sort of coherent plan ready to implement within any reasonable timeframe? While they're bodging that project, the dominant car culture will continue to colonise all available space. It's been going on for decades, so what would trigger a paradigm shift following a massive increase in available road space? In any case, where is such a major project even hinted at in the current plans? Are there 60 scientists working on that particular option/alternative, as there are on the various road options?


2. Better for whom? It is self-evident that the biggest winners from day one will be car owners and car users. One major reason why the city has not been made a better place to live in for pedestrians, cyclists and users of public transport, over a period of decades, is that the needs and wants of motorists have always been prioritised. This is exemplified in the attitude that non-motorists can only be accommodated properly after a bypass is built.


3. What would motivate them to do so? Most of them have cared little and done less about the fundamental issues for years (some for decades) and have been content to wait for a bypass to materialise. And why would they bother once the biggest sweetie of all (a bypass) has been dished out, and there are no more votes to be garnered by supporting the most populist policy of all?


4. The current system doesn't have the capacity for what? A feature of the current road network is that it is (a) not congested all the time, (b) is congested with cars travelling relatively short distances such as the school run, and (c) grossly under-provides for transport modes which do not cause any traffic congestion.


5. Where in Ireland have politicians prevented road-facilitated car-dependent urban sprawl?


6. You're absolutely right, it won't happen. So can we drop the pretence that the "bypass" is about anything other than facilitating car use? And while we're at it, can we acknowledge that most "bypass" enthusiasts really do not give a damn about sustainable transportation policy or about what will happen in relation to public transit, walking and cycling once a "bypass" is built?

Iwannahurl

dubhthach wrote: »

In which case they would bypass the core of the city, sounds like success to me. You end up removing traffic that shouldn't be within close proximity of city center (QCB is close proximity). My own opinion would be that as part of Outer bypass that bus lane be run over QCB in both directions and up over Sean Mulvoy road to the Dublin road. (connected to SQR buslane and extended westerward on WDR)
Of course if you were coming from Spidéal or na Forbacha or anywhere west of Bearna in Cois Fharraige you wouldn't need to backtrack you'd just drive straight onto the start of the green route.
If people want to drive westbound on WDR out of Knocknatallaght sure it's removes them from SQR, thus making dedicated buslanes over QCB more viable.

Success for whom? It is self-evident that if a large proportion of commuters switch to a bypass, and if road space within the city is significantly increased, then this creates an opportunity for more car use. Private car users can instantly avail of this expanded capacity whereas there will inevitably be a substantial time lag before public transport can fill the gap. Where are the measures in the current proposals to expand public transport at all?


And what makes bus lanes viable? Passengers, of course. Where will those passengers come from? Out of cars? How exactly will that be achieved?

Padkir

Iwannahurl wrote: »

Looking at those graphics I find myself wondering, for example, what's to stop commuters driving out the Barna Road from the western suburbs, taking the "bypass" all the way to the eastern end, and then coming back into the "industrial" zone around Parkmore and Ballybrit?

Or what would stop them rat-running up the Tonabrucky direction to link up with the "link road" you describe?

Is that not one of the main points of the road? So they can avoid the city centre.

Iwannahurl

The alleged purpose of the road is as a bypass, including and perhaps especially for those people in Connemara allegedly "cut off" from the rest of the country.

Of course, various people want a "bypass" for various reasons, most of them to do with the facilitation of car use: http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=85750010&postcount=495

I keep having to ask the same question: if in fact the "bypass" is going to function as a ring road for car commuters, what effect will this have on (a) overall levels of car use and car dependence in the region, (b) car commuting within the city and (c) the potential for significant modal shift as required by national and EU policy as well as global imperatives such as the urgent need to mitigate climate change?

ballinadog

Iwannahurl wrote: »

The alleged purpose of the road is as a bypass, including and perhaps especially for those people in Connemara allegedly "cut off" from the rest of the country.

Of course, various people want a "bypass" for various reasons, most of them to do with the facilitation of car use: http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=85750010&postcount=495

I keep having to ask the same question: if in fact the "bypass" is going to function as a ring road for car commuters, what effect will this have on (a) overall levels of car use and car dependence in the region, (b) car commuting within the city and (c) the potential for significant modal shift as required by national and EU policy as well as global imperatives such as the urgent need to mitigate climate change?

(A) little or no change
(B) little or no change to the amount of people commuting by car, however they won't now all be in the city on roads not fit to carry them but out on new rd
(C) little or no change however there would be greater potential to make adjustments to the current infrastructure which would aid this modal shift, which there is currently zero potential for at the mo

dubhthach

Iwannahurl wrote: »

Success for whom? It is self-evident that if a large proportion of commuters switch to a bypass, and if road space within the city is significantly increased, then this creates an opportunity for more car use. Private car users can instantly avail of this expanded capacity whereas there will inevitably be a substantial time lag before public transport can fill the gap. Where are the measures in the current proposals to expand public transport at all?


And what makes bus lanes viable? Passengers, of course. Where will those passengers come from? Out of cars? How exactly will that be achieved?

Why would people shift to buses when
(a) infrequent (you need a 15-20 minute headway)
(b) time of trip not guaranteed.

After all back in day the Salthill bus was every half-hour, if you missed it ye be better off going home and driving into town. If however it was running every 15minutes you would have higher patronage. Of course Galway has a worse case of An Lár-ism then even Dublin. Why for example are all bus routes routed through Eyre Square?

If you can't provide a solution to getting buses through gridlock why would anyone start using them? People don't want to use public transport for quasi-religious reasons but because when done right it's a efficient and convenient ways of getting to work.

Again there's nothing stopping the introduction of a buslane across the QCB and up the Seán Mulvoy road on the day of bypass opening. (Heck I'd go further and run one out to Oranmore on old N6), all you need is a line painting vehicle and some signs (covered until the day). Result the loss of culminative of 5.2km of road space to car users (2.6km each way).

No road works required or anything, well that and the Gardaí to stop eating donuts.

what_traffic

Chris_5339762 wrote: »

It'd have to happen at once. On the DAY the bypass opens, a big reconfiguration of the roads of Galway would have to take place to put in more bus lanes, better cycling infrastructure and less car space. I've often said that the bypass isn't the cure-all to Galways traffic problems but it'll make the city a much, much better place to live in. But it HAS to be done in conjunction with a major re-work of the town center and suburbs transportation... which I wouldn't trust Irish politicians and councillors to do properly.

Strong merit in what you propose. Why is this and other such possibilities not been included in the "N6 Galway City Transport Project" in addition to the Road Route Corridor's been proposed?
I would imagine it would make the IROPI case stronger if they were to adopt such an approach?

AugustusMinimus

I don't understand any of these arguments against the bypass.

They sound like arguments from those living in small towns who are afraid the town will die if bypassed.

Pottymouth

It strikes me as strange hat there is no provision for a connection from the proposed new harbour development to any of the proposed new routes. One would think that the harbour would need a major connection to the new route otherwise substantial and sometimes heavy traffic will have to meander through the town. Am I missing something?

dubhthach

Pottymouth wrote: »

It strikes me as strange hat there is no provision for a connection from the proposed new harbour development to any of the proposed new routes. One would think that the harbour would need a major connection to the new route otherwise substantial and sometimes heavy traffic will have to meander through the town. Am I missing something?

Harbour development though is a private concern (eg. Harbour company not local authority) so not surprising they've ignored it. It mightn't happen. Though there is a proposal for a road/bus corridor connection:

http://connachttribune.ie/new-road-parallel-to-railway-line-proposed/

Chris_5339762

I suggested that about five years ago. Maybe I should claim copyright....

Iwannahurl

AugustusMinimus wrote: »

I don't understand any of these arguments against the bypass.

They sound like arguments from those living in small towns who are afraid the town will die if bypassed.

In EU and world terms Galway "City" is a small town.

Anyway, what happens to small towns in Ireland that are bypassed?

what_traffic

dubhthach wrote: »

Harbour development though is a private concern (eg. Harbour company not local authority) so not surprising they've ignored it. It mightn't happen. Though there is a proposal for a road/bus corridor connection:

http://connachttribune.ie/new-road-parallel-to-railway-line-proposed/

This proposal was never submitted in the planning application.
http://www.galwayharbourextension.com/
Harbour company(Semi State) is currently not under Galway City Council authority but could end up so as it is a Regional Port (Tier 3)

WallyGUFC

Bypass takes cars out of city centre. City centre traffic becomes less of a problem. Buses, cyclists, pedestrians can then move around the town more freely/quickly/safely. City centre living becomes more desirable. Increase in population. Increase in public transport use

Probably too simplistic. Think the bypass is a positive. If they sorted out the Salmon Weir Bridge that'd be very positive also.