M6 - Galway City Ring Road [planning decision pending]

Aard

I think that it's fairly safe to say that whether or not there's an extensive public transport element there'll still be a road of some sort of road built. As such, while it is important to discuss things like roadspace allocation, it is also important to discuss what the best route for the (inevitable?) road should be. I've already laid out my arguments for the Red route. My biggest fear for Galway would be that an orbital high-capacity road will encourage (or worse -- facilitate) residential and economic decentralisation in the city. In the long term, this will increase average journey times and distances, which does not bode well for sustainable transport modes. As such it is vitally important that the road be built in a way that mitigates the facilititation of residential and economic decentralisation (aka suburban sprawl). In my opinion the Green route would be the worst of the lot for this. But going by previous bypass roads in Ireland, it appears that engineers prefer the routes that are farthest from town, a pattern that has not always yielded the best results in terms of discouraging sprawl.

yer man!

Iwannahurl wrote: »

It is you who say it: "more people use cars now".

Nothing selective about it at all, incredibly or otherwise. Modal share is what it is. As yer man says, "more people use cars now" even though Waterford is "one of the places worst hit by mass job losses".

This city had one bridge up until recently and no ring road, using a car would get you nowhere at certain periods in the day. Ever since the ring road was put in and the second bridge built, the traffic that didn't need to come into the city to cross the Suir was removed. This really makes a big difference and it's blatantly obvious. Public transport doesn't really work too well here, the population just isn't big enough to allow for an extensive, efficient and cheap system. It is very much centered around the car and that isn't going to change, and I don't really see much of a problem with that to be honest. The city is actually quite like Galway (only in reverse), most housing is on the east side and the industry is on the west side. The difference is that it takes the same amount of time to make it from one side to the other regardless of the the time of day.

Iwannahurl

Aard wrote: »

But going by previous bypass roads in Ireland, it appears that engineers prefer the routes that are farthest from town, a pattern that has not always yielded the best results in terms of discouraging sprawl.

I don't believe it's possible, or appropriate, to discuss an issue like that entirely in isolation, but it's a very interesting one to explore all the same.

Aard

^Not sure what you're trying to say there. What's not "appropriate" about what I said?

dubhthach

antoobrien wrote: »

I was told yesterday by one of the project engineers that there would be a parallel bridge. Now I wish I'd taken a photo of it because it was clearly a second bridge.

North or south of the QCB? North and they run into Terryland Castle, south there's still some remains of Terryland House, so they'd have to cut into the Terryland Forest Park.

Either way they would have to demolish part of the university for it to work (gym south of the bridge, or Science and Engineering Technology building/incubator units north of the bridge), unless of course they want to run it cheek-by-jowl with Engineering building/Nursing building (Áras Moyola).

Either way I can imagine the red route would lead to an "Expressway revolt" given that it cuts through urban fabric.

dloob

I like the Orange route because it has a long tunnel and tunnels are cooler than bridges.
Hey it's as good a reason as any for picking it.

Iwannahurl

Aard wrote: »

^Not sure what you're trying to say there. What's not "appropriate" about what I said?

Nothing! Lest there be any misunderstanding, I was not criticising your remarks.

It's just that I suspect the situation you observe (that engineers prefer the routes that are farthest from town) is a ramified one, and potentially in can-of-worms territory. I'd love to explore it in more detail, but perhaps not in this thread or forum...

what_traffic

Aard wrote: »

I think that it's fairly safe to say that whether or not there's an extensive public transport element there'll still be a road of some sort of road built. As such, while it is important to discuss things like roadspace allocation, it is also important to discuss what the best route for the (inevitable?) road should be.

Interesting point but that is bad planning in my opinion and that's one reason why I have a big problem with the plans that have been laid out. Public transport is out on it's own. That is a nonsense. It should be an integrated element into all plans. No exploration of P&R?

antoobrien

dubhthach wrote: »

North or south of the QCB? North and they run into Terryland Castle, south there's still some remains of Terryland House, so they'd have to cut into the Terryland Forest Park.

Either way they would have to demolish part of the university for it to work (gym south of the bridge, or Science and Engineering Technology building/incubator units north of the bridge), unless of course they want to run it cheek-by-jowl with Engineering building/Nursing building (Áras Moyola).

It'd have to be south due to the proximity of Terryland Castle the the existing road and this seems to be confirmed in the Galway independent yesterday in that one of the city councillors stated that the Kingfisher is in line for demolition should the red route be selected.

edit: link to the article: http://galwayindependent.com/20150204/news/rocky-road-ahead-S50450.html

antoobrien

Iwannahurl wrote: »

Considering the totality of what has been posted on this general subject

tinfoil hat territory again.

Zzippy

Getting back to the individual routes, how about we examine the pros and cons of each? The information on the website is so limited that such an exercise might help people better understand the complexities involved with each route and better inform them on how to make a submission.

I've measured route distances on GIS, they're not far off and include link roads as shown on the maps. Until the detailed maps are uploaded I can't measure the distance of tunnelling/viaducts/cuts required for each route. The table below is just my interpretation of the info presented so far, comments welcome and I can update the table with corrections.

Green Route || ~19.8km new road
|| Designed to avoid SAC, minimal impact
|| Least amount of tunnel required
|| High no. of CPOs required
|| Moderate Cost?
||
Blue Route| | 21.6km new road
||Viaduct required to avoid SAC area, some impact?
|| Significant tunneling required
|| Low no. of CPOs required
||Moderate Cost?
||
Pink Route|| 21km new road
|| Viaduct required to avoid SAC area, some impact?
|| Some tunneling required
|| Low no. of CPOs required
|| Moderate Cost?
||
Yellow Route || 17.3km new road
|| No viaduct required, minimal impact
|| Some tunneling required
|| Least no. CPOs required?
|| Moderate Cost?
||
Orange Route ||17.25km new road
|| Zero impact on SAC
|| Most tunneling required
|| High no. CPOs required
|| Highest Cost?
||
Red Route || 15.3km new road
|| Zero impact on SAC
|| Some tunneling required
|| High no. CPOs required
|| High Cost?

?Cee?view

Iwannahurl wrote: »

Considering the totality of what has been posted on this general subject, the vast majority of which assumes by implication that a "bypass" is the first and perhaps the only solution to Galway's human-made traffic congestion, it would take a brass neck of an exceptional lustre to claim that this proposed new road is intended as anything other than a bonanza for car commuters, aka payback time:



Even in the wider context of IROPI, the project sponsors and supporters can't muster the enthusiasm to at least pretend that the "bypass" is more than just a classic supply-side boost for car commuters. The organisers of the "consultation" process didn't even bother to propose anything of substance under the heading of alternative solutions, and senior officials in local government are pretty clear about what they want:



Nothing revelatory about that, of course, because it's precisely what "bypass" enthusiasts have been saying for years:

If you're going to selectively quote in post #1289 from what I wrote 5 years ago, can you at least do so without misconstruing context. It's perfectly clear that I meant that Kingston Road and all those others listed need the bypass so that the traffic that clogs them is moved out and away. This will free up space for other road users including those with bicycles and even bicycles with trailers.

antoobrien

Zzippy wrote: »

Getting back to the individual routes, how about we examine the pros and cons of each?

Add to the Red, Orange & Yellow routes significant rebuild of multiple current N6 junctions to create junctions similar to the new layouts of Nx & Lucan @ the old Newcastle lights. The Pink, Blue routes would only affect 1 junction (Briarhill), the Green shouldn't affect any (bar traffic management issues during construction).

I think the Yellow route would require 3 rebuilds, Orange 4 and Red - would be 4 or more.

IMO you should also indicate which ones use bridges/tunnels to cross the river (i.e. Orange is the only tunnel under the river).

FYI the red route is the one that has been touted as costing up to €750m.

dubhthach

With regards to cuttings proposed, going off the route diagram are these proposed to be "cut and cover" or is that just a misleading icon that's been used?

Zzippy

dubhthach wrote: »

With regards to cuttings proposed, going off the route diagram are these proposed to be "cut and cover" or is that just a misleading icon that's been used?

I think some are cut and cover, such as under the racecourse, but I presume others will just be cut through a hill to level the grade and no cover. The detailed maps may indicate more when they are uploaded?

dubhthach

Zzippy wrote: »

I think some are cut and cover, such as under the racecourse, but I presume others will just be cut through a hill to level the grade and no cover. The detailed maps may indicate more when they are uploaded?

I'd hope so plus location and type of junctions on each route.

antoobrien

dubhthach wrote: »

I'd hope so plus location and type of junctions on each route.

They've added a new highres map to the project page with some extra details (Health warning it's over 10MB).

It's one of the maps that was displayed with some details on junctions (e.g. the pink route has a link to the Coolough RAB) and artists impressions of some of the potential junctions (Terryland is included).

what_traffic

Zzippy wrote: »

Green Route || ~19.8km new road

|| Designed to avoid SAC, minimal impact
|| Least amount of tunnel required
|| High no. of CPOs required
|| Moderate Cost?
||
Blue Route| | 21.6km new road
||Viaduct required to avoid SAC area, some impact?
|| Significant tunneling required
|| Low no. of CPOs required
||Moderate Cost?
||
Pink Route|| 21km new road
|| Viaduct required to avoid SAC area, some impact?
|| Some tunneling required
|| Low no. of CPOs required
|| Moderate Cost?
||
Yellow Route || 17.3km new road
|| No viaduct required, minimal impact
|| Some tunneling required
|| Least no. CPOs required?
|| Moderate Cost?
||
Orange Route ||17.25km new road
|| Zero impact on SAC
|| Most tunneling required
|| High no. CPOs required
|| Highest Cost?
||
Red Route || 15.3km new road
|| Zero impact on SAC
|| Some tunneling required
|| High no. CPOs required
|| High Cost?

Interesting table. What about the Public Transport?

What's moderate cost? €500,000,000 - €600,000,000?

I can't see how one can lump the green and blue route in the same cost category.

dubhthach

I'd imagine with all the tunnelling that the blue route would cost more to be honest. As for public transport, there is what appears to be route for a BRT viewable in small map in this pdf. This would appear to need a new bridge over section of Corrib between old Railway bridge and the QCB.

http://www.n6galwaycity.ie/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/PC2_Board-5-Possible-Public-Transport-Component-of-the-Transport-solution.pdf

what_traffic

dubhthach wrote: »

I'd imagine with all the tunnelling that the blue route would cost more to be honest. As for public transport, there is what appears to be route for a BRT viewable in small map in this pdf. This would appear to need a new bridge over section of Corrib between old Railway bridge and the QCB.

http://www.n6galwaycity.ie/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/PC2_Board-5-Possible-Public-Transport-Component-of-the-Transport-solution.pdf

Don't see any new bridge. I think that's just existing bus network map - which use Salmon Weir Bridge.
What would one get if spent €500,000,000 on public transport infrastructure? Will be buses - don't have density for Trams.

what_traffic

antoobrien wrote: »

tinfoil hat territory again.

C'mon play the ball not the ......

dubhthach

what_traffic wrote: »

Don't see any new bridge. I think that's just existing bus network map - which use Salmon Weir Bridge.
What would one get if spent €500,000,000 on public transport infrastructure? Will be buses - don't have density for Trams.

Zoom in on the BRT map on the right, unless their graphic designer is incompetent that clearly shows a route that would have to cut through NUIG

dubhthach

Beyond vague in layout but the eastern end would appear to line up with proposed "central boulvard" of the "Ardaun new town" which was proposed several years ago, I recall there was talk about having this a public transport dominated spine of the "new town"

Zzippy

what_traffic wrote: »

Interesting table. What about the Public Transport?

What's moderate cost? €500,000,000 - €600,000,000?

I can't see how one can lump the green and blue route in the same cost category.

I agree that there should be much more emphasis on public transport, I intend to raise it in my submission, but let's be realistic, there will be a road as well. My post was to look at the different options for a new road. There are people who would like to discuss the road options without having the public transport agenda forced into every facet of the discussion. By all means have the public transport discussion in parallel but some people are extremely interested in where the road should, and will go, and why.

As for the costs, I don't know what each route would cost - the table contains my impressions and I specifically asked people for their comments so the table could be updated. I'm all ears if you have better estimates so we could categorise the route options better.

Zzippy

Table updated with info from antoobrien

Green Route || ~19.8km new road
|| Designed to avoid SAC, minimal impact
|| Bridge crossing of Corrib
|| Least amount of tunnel required
|| High no. of CPOs required
|| Moderate Cost?
||
Blue Route| | 21.6km new road
||Viaduct required to avoid SAC area, some impact?
|| Bridge crossing of Corrib
|| Significant tunneling required
|| Low no. of CPOs required
||Moderate Cost?
||
Pink Route|| 21km new road
|| Viaduct required to avoid SAC area, some impact?
|| Bridge crossing of Corrib
|| Some tunneling required
|| Low no. of CPOs required
|| Moderate Cost?
||
Yellow Route || 17.3km new road
|| No viaduct required, minimal impact
|| Bridge crossing of Corrib
|| Some tunneling required
|| Least no. CPOs required?
|| Rebuild of multiple junctions (3?)
|| Moderate Cost?
||
Orange Route ||17.25km new road
|| Zero impact on SAC
|| Tunnel crossing of Corrib
|| Most tunneling required
|| High no. CPOs required
|| Rebuild of multiple junctions (4?)
|| Highest Cost?
||
Red Route || 15.3km new road
|| Zero impact on SAC
|| Bridge crossing of Corrib
|| Some tunneling required
|| High no. CPOs required
||Rebuild of multiple junctions (4+?)
|| Highest Cost? ~€750m

antoobrien

dubhthach wrote: »

Beyond vague in layout but the eastern end would appear to line up with proposed "central boulvard" of the "Ardaun new town" which was proposed several years ago, I recall there was talk about having this a public transport dominated spine of the "new town"

Those plans for Ardaun have been scratched, there was a new plan made available last year that moves the development north of the N/M6. From memory, most of these routes cut through it. I'll have to see if I can find a copy.

dubhthach

antoobrien wrote: »

Those plans for Ardaun have been scratched, there was a new plan made available last year that moves the development north of the N/M6. From memory, most of these routes cut through it. I'll have to see if I can find a copy.

County Councillors wouldn't play ball from what I recall. Of course now Alan Kelly is talking about "revising boundaries" in case of both Cork and Galway, though in case of Galway that's probably code for "lets merge Galway with the county ala what happened in Waterford and Limerick"

antoobrien

dubhthach wrote: »

County Councillors wouldn't play ball from what I recall. Of course now Alan Kelly is talking about "revising boundaries" in case of both Cork and Galway, though in case of Galway that's probably code for "lets merge Galway with the county ala what happened in Waterford and Limerick"

I think it has more to do with the dc/motorway going straight through the middle of the proposed Ardaun "town centre" than the county council not playing ball.

what_traffic

Zzippy wrote: »

I agree that there should be much more emphasis on public transport, I intend to raise it in my submission, but let's be realistic, there will be a road as well. My post was to look at the different options for a new road. There are people who would like to discuss the road options without having the public transport agenda forced into every facet of the discussion. By all means have the public transport discussion in parallel but some people are extremely interested in where the road should, and will go, and why.

As for the costs, I don't know what each route would cost - the table contains my impressions and I specifically asked people for their comments so the table could be updated. I'm all ears if you have better estimates so we could categorise the route options better.

Well 1st perhaps categorise what Low, Moderate and High is?
You have costed high at €750,000,000 for the red route.
Is that the Mid Range?
Then Low would be €250,000,000, Moderate €500,000,000?

Public Transport Should be included in the table because it is one of the seven options in the "N6 Transportation Study".

what_traffic

dubhthach wrote: »

Beyond vague in layout but the eastern end would appear to line up with proposed "central boulvard" of the "Ardaun new town" which was proposed several years ago, I recall there was talk about having this a public transport dominated spine of the "new town"

Ah OK - yup that's pretty vague alright. Terrible stuff really. I just thought this was an East -> West; West -> East diagram BRT. You could get a child in a National School to create a better diagram than that.