M6 - Galway City Ring Road [planning decision pending]

dubhthach

antoobrien wrote: »

I think it has more to do with the dc/motorway going straight through the middle of the proposed Ardaun "town centre" than the county council not playing ball.

No because the "town center" was south of the N6, see plan here for bus corridor dated to 2007, the route of N6/M6 is clearly outlined, along with junction where Outer bypass would spin off it.

http://search.galwaycity.ie/AllServices/CommunityCulture/Publications/FileEnglish,4222,en.pdf

antoobrien

dubhthach wrote: »

No because the "town center" was south of the N6, see plan here for bus corridor dated to 2007, the route of N6/M6 is clearly outlined, along with junction where Outer bypass would spin off it.

http://search.galwaycity.ie/AllServices/CommunityCulture/Publications/FileEnglish,4222,en.pdf

From what I can remember of the documents I saw last year, it's all north of the M6 now - in "city council" land.

what_traffic

Ardaun is another can of worm's! The M6/N6 split's the original Arduan planned area. As far I am aware dubhthach is right. It's to be sandwiched between the Oranmore Dual Carriageway and the M6/N6.

antoobrien

what_traffic wrote: »

Ardaun is another can of worm's! The M6/N6 split's the original Arduan planned area. As far I am aware dubhthach is right. It's to be sandwiched between the Oranmore Dual Carriageway and the M6/N6.

No, you're wrong that was changed last year, it's now surrounding Coolough village.

what_traffic

antoobrien wrote: »

No, you're wrong that was changed last year, it's now surrounding Coolough village.

I hope we are.

dubhthach

what_traffic wrote: »

Ardaun is another can of worm's! The M6/N6 split's the original Arduan planned area. As far I am aware dubhthach is right. It's to be sandwiched between the Oranmore Dual Carriageway and the M6/N6.

Well Ardaun the townland itself is all south of N6/M6 tbh (well 99.9% -- road skirts northern boundary of townland)

There's a Local Area Plan for it available online from what I can see:
http://www.galwaycity.ie/news/76/59/Public-Notice-Ardaun-Local-Area-Plan-Stage1-Pre-draft-Public-Consultation/

http://www.galwaycity.ie/uploads//downloads/publications/planning/Proposed%20Ardaun%20LAP%20SEA%20Scoping%20Report%202014.pdf

Looks like they have it with two phases, Phase1 would include areas north of N6/M6 (thus would run into issues with most Outer bypass routes other than Green?)

As Anto mentions it's fully within City boundary, city councillors obviously got sick of their county brethern. From what I recall back in the day several of county councillors (this is pre-crash) were concerned developing Ardaun (East Ardaun within county council area) would affect development in areas such as Tuam, Athenry and Loughrea.

antoobrien

what_traffic wrote: »

I hope we are.

After seeing the extent of the ecological survey done for this project, I'd say there's little or no chance of any major development east of Galway because they found "habitat" practically everywhere.

antoobrien

dubhthach wrote: »

Looks like they have it with two phases, Phase1 would include areas north of N6/M6 (thus would run into issues with most Outer bypass routes other than Green?)

All routes would run through the extended "Ardaun" area.

dubhthach

Indeed by the way that massive pdf you posted earlier, it would seem some bright spark forgot to "flatten the layers" in it, as a result using adobe you can go in and disable various layers. At the moment I'm looking at version of pdf which just the green route on it. I'll post some junction screenshots in next bit.

antoobrien

dubhthach wrote: »

Indeed by the way that massive pdf you posted earlier, it would seem some bright spark forgot to "flatten the layers" in it, as a result using adobe you can go in and disable various layers. At the moment I'm looking at version of pdf which just the green route on it. I'll post some junction screenshots in next bit.

Indeed, just saw that this morning.

The more I look at the green route, the less feasible I think it is "as is". The talk of the Arduan plan sparked a memory from the document about the status of Coolough village, so I looked it up.

Coolagh Village, is a protected traditional village settlement within Ardaun.

So the Green Route would appear to be at odds with the stated development goals of the city.

dubhthach

Well it does seem to skirt north-east of Coolagh, now I don't know if i'm missing layers here. I disabled most and then added in relevant green briarhill junction layers:

dubhthach

If you throw in the blue route you see that the "more southerly routes" are still within same distance of Coolagh ("sráidbhaile" if there was ever a case)

antoobrien

dubhthach wrote: »

Well it does seem to skirt north-east of Coolagh, now I don't know if i'm missing layers here.

Knowing the area I don't need o look at an aerial photo (bing maps have the most up to date for that area) to tell you that between the route itself and access roads it's taking out the top 1/3 of the village and on the other side of the Monivea Road a house that I believe pre-dates the school (moved there in the 1950s).

Blue or pink would be far better for Coolough.

I would suggest that whatever happens the land between the new junction and the current layout of the N6 be bought by the council for amenity (e.g. planting trees link terryland forest park).

Zzippy

dubhthach wrote: »

Indeed by the way that massive pdf you posted earlier, it would seem some bright spark forgot to "flatten the layers" in it, as a result using adobe you can go in and disable various layers. At the moment I'm looking at version of pdf which just the green route on it. I'll post some junction screenshots in next bit.

Yeah that's handy alright for those of us with Adobe. I wonder are they going to upload the detailed habitat map with routes overlaid...

spacetweek

antoobrien wrote: »

The more I look at the green route, the less feasible I think it is "as is". The talk of the Arduan plan sparked a memory from the document about the status of Coolough village, so I looked it up.

It's Coolagh not Coolough - confusingly both are to be found in Galway city, there's a Coolough Rd leading to Menlo.

antoobrien

spacetweek wrote: »

It's Coolagh not Coolough - confusingly both are to be found in Galway city, there's a Coolough Rd leading to Menlo.

That's a bit like using Connaught instead of Connacht.

dubhthach

antoobrien wrote: »

That's a bit like using Connaught instead of Connacht.

Well the two derive from same irish word (Coolagh/Coolough)
Cúil Each = corner/nook of the Horse

However as regards Connacht vs. Connaught, in middle english -gh was prononunced as /x/ (Voiceless velar fricative), in Irish broad -ch has this value.

Thence a direct linguistic mapping would be:
Connacht -> Connaught

Subsequently /x/ disappeared as a sound in english and thus -gh became silent, however in Scotland it's still presence thence the prononuncation of Loch matches how it's pronounced in Irish. A better comparison would be between Laois and Leix

Connacht is thus the correct Irish language form, derived from "The Connachta" eg. Dál Cuinn/Moccu Cuinn (the dynastical groups that claim descent from Conn of the hundred battles)

what_traffic

Table updated with Public Transport Info

Green Route || ~19.8km new road

|| Designed to avoid SAC, minimal impact
|| Bridge crossing of Corrib
|| Least amount of tunnel required
|| High no. of CPOs required
|| Moderate Cost?
||
Blue Route| | 21.6km new road
||Viaduct required to avoid SAC area, some impact?
|| Bridge crossing of Corrib
|| Significant tunneling required
|| Low no. of CPOs required
||Moderate Cost?
||
Pink Route|| 21km new road
|| Viaduct required to avoid SAC area, some impact?
|| Bridge crossing of Corrib
|| Some tunneling required
|| Low no. of CPOs required
|| Moderate Cost?
||
Yellow Route || 17.3km new road
|| No viaduct required, minimal impact
|| Bridge crossing of Corrib
|| Some tunneling required
|| Least no. CPOs required?
|| Rebuild of multiple junctions (3?)
|| Moderate Cost?
||
Orange Route ||17.25km new road
|| Zero impact on SAC
|| Tunnel crossing of Corrib
|| Most tunneling required
|| High no. CPOs required
|| Rebuild of multiple junctions (4?)
|| Highest Cost?
||
Red Route || 15.3km new road
|| Zero impact on SAC
|| Bridge crossing of Corrib
|| Some tunneling required
|| High no. CPOs required
||Rebuild of multiple junctions (4+?)
|| Highest Cost? ~€750

Public Transport BRT || Unknown no of km for new Bus Lanes
|| Zero impact on SAC
|| Bridge crossing of Corrib?
|| Tunnelling required?
|| Low no. CPOs required
||Rebuild - High no of multiple junctions to give Bus Priority
|| Low Cost ~€250,000,000

[/QUOTE]

dubhthach

I'm quite liking the use of a trumpet junction on the pink route, this basically tracks same route as blue with some variations (tunnel under parkmore as oppose to race course?) etc.

Aard

Unless I'm missing something, the roundabout on the pink trumpet is unnecessary.

fcio

@Iwannahurl your (and people like you) continued opposition to the bypass has lead to bigger and bigger gridlock in the city, and whats more leading to sprawl of houses into the county

We are now in a situation where its easier/faster to drive 20 miles from east county galway to get to work in the factories than drive across town

I realize some environmentalists would love nothing better than to wipe out thousands of years of progress and live in caves, but most of us just want to get on with our lives and be able to get to shops, work, schools and friends, no public transport is not the solution to all problems

the solution to galways traffic is a bypass and new bridge over the river AND public transport, not one or the other.

fcio

cgcsb wrote: »

Not necessarily, simply ban cars from all but a few City streets to allow minimum access requirements,

Dear god, not only will it make traffic problems worse but will kill businesses in the city center, they are already suffering from lack of parking and overzealous parking wardens. Coupled with a rise in online shopping I wouldnt be suprised to see more closed shops and rise of tesco/lidl/aldi monoculture

LillySV

the green route does go over part of the sac

what_traffic

Aard wrote: »

Unless I'm missing something, the roundabout on the pink trumpet is unnecessary.

Allows U-turn's from the Motorway is the only thing I can see in terms of usefulness?

Aard

But there's another roundabout like 100m later.

what_traffic

Aard wrote: »

But there's another roundabout like 100m later.

Doh. I just thought of that after I posted.

what_traffic

Any other basic design flaws spotted?

ballinadog

what_traffic wrote: »

Any other basic design flaws spotted?

That roundabout is required though? It essentially performs the same roll that the existing coolagh roundabout does at the mo. the traffic coming from say the Briarhill junction that wishes to go on the bypass/n6 will meet the traffic coming off the bypass/n6 that say wishes to go in the direction of the clinic.

Iwannahurl

?Cee?view wrote: »

If you're going to selectively quote in post #1289 from what I wrote 5 years ago, can you at least do so without misconstruing context. It's perfectly clear that I meant that Kingston Road and all those others listed need the bypass so that the traffic that clogs them is moved out and away. This will free up space for other road users including those with bicycles and even bicycles with trailers.

It wasn't clear at all.

Still, that was the old "bypass", which is now defunct.

Some of the rhetoric in favour of a new "bypass" is rather similar, however, which is perhaps not surprising.

A few days ago I was told by an elected representative that the new road being considered is less of a "bypass" than the old plan, and that it is being regarded as an intrinsic part of a "transport solution" (cf. post #1292 above), which was not on the cards previously. I'm not personally convinced it's on the cards now either, but in answer to my question regarding what will happen in terms of moving car commuters to public transport, the elected member's perspective was that while there is a risk involved in terms of commuters not bothering to switch modes once road capacity has been increased for cars, the new road still has to come first.

Perhaps it's a Catch 22 with two variations. Bypass advocates say road first, because there is no room currently for public transport, cycling and walking. But then that removes the incentive to travel by those modes, which is Catch 22A. So I prefer Catch 22B, which is to provide properly for public transport, cycling and walking first, and then consider what additional road capacity might be needed. 'A' risks undermining the urgency to provide for alternatives to commuting by car, while 'B' runs the risk of aggravating traffic congestion while the "transport solution" is being rolled out.

By the way, are you of the view that school traffic of this sort will somehow disappear if a "bypass" is built?

Iwannahurl

fcio wrote: »

@Iwannahurl your (and people like you) continued opposition to the bypass has lead to bigger and bigger gridlock in the city, and whats more leading to sprawl of houses into the county

We are now in a situation where its easier/faster to drive 20 miles from east county galway to get to work in the factories than drive across town

I realize some environmentalists would love nothing better than to wipe out thousands of years of progress and live in caves, but most of us just want to get on with our lives and be able to get to shops, work, schools and friends, no public transport is not the solution to all problems

the solution to galways traffic is a bypass and new bridge over the river AND public transport, not one or the other.

fcio wrote: »

Dear god, not only will it make traffic problems worse but will kill businesses in the city center, they are already suffering from lack of parking and overzealous parking wardens. Coupled with a rise in online shopping I wouldnt be suprised to see more closed shops and rise of tesco/lidl/aldi monoculture

Incorrect, in ways too numerous to mention.