M6 - Galway City Ring Road [planning decision pending]

Sam Russell

spacetweek wrote: »

That wouldn't work with the current setup as a large modal shift away from cars will take a decade or two (it took that long for the car to establish itself in the first place), and those extra buses would just be sitting in traffic unless bus lanes are part of the deal. And you can't have bus lanes without the bypass.

Grafton Street used to have traffic jams all day every day.

antoobrien

Sam Russell wrote: »

Grafton Street used to have traffic jams all day every day.

So did Shop St, pedestrianizing it didn't help traffic any.

what_traffic wrote: »

Could bring in a Bus Gate on Salmon Weir Bridge from 16h00 to 19h00 similar to the one in College Green. There are many things that can be done with the existing infrastructure

That's almost as bad a suggestion as reducing the QB from 4 lanes to 2 for bus lanes. You do realise that it would not help private traffic levels and would just push traffic to the Wolfe Tone & QB which are already over capacity?

Iwannahurl

antoobrien wrote: »

So did Shop St, pedestrianizing it didn't help traffic any.

What, Shop Street still has a problem with traffic congestion?

antoobrien

Iwannahurl wrote: »

What, Shop Street still has a problem with traffic congestion?

It does yes, too many people on it.

dubhthach

Iwannahurl wrote: »

What, Shop Street still has a problem with traffic congestion?

It's fairly shocking all them trucks at 9am on a monday

dubhthach

antoobrien wrote: »

So did Shop St, pedestrianizing it didn't help traffic any.



That's almost as bad a suggestion as reducing the QB from 4 lanes to 2 for bus lanes. You do realise that it would not help private traffic levels and would just push traffic to the Wolfe Tone & QB which are already over capacity?

In fairness Anto my suggestion on QB is only in event of outer bypass been in situ (eg. on opening day) that such an action would happen. Nothing stopping widening WDR to include buslanes in the meantime though.

antoobrien

dubhthach wrote: »

In fairness Anto my suggestion on QB is only in event of outer bypass been in situ (eg. on opening day) that such an action would happen. Nothing stopping widening WDR to include buslanes in the meantime though.

While it may not be suggested here (although I think it has been), it has been suggested to me personally that a bypass is not needed on the grounds that bus lanes on the QB - as is - would be sufficient.

I took a look back at the inspectors report from the original proposed route as I remembered something about this being raised by the inspector:

A relevant point in this regard is that the development of bus lanes on the Quincentennial Bridge and approaches would, in the absence of the bypass, reduce the capacity of the road system in the city to carry cross-city traffic.

It would appear that given the inspector has specifically mentioned it in the report, it's fair to assume that the suggestion came up as an alternative to a bypass part of a wide PT only solution.

There is also a comment in the report that could be applied to new batch of routes, in particular the the proposed red route:

I would make one general comment on the routes considered, which is that they all skirt the city to the north. No consideration was given to a coastal route, crossing the mouth of the Corrib downstream of the city centre, but I consider that its exclusion from any consideration was reasonable. The same applies to the upgrading of the Quincentennial Bridge and approaches, possibly with grade separation.

what_traffic

antoobrien wrote: »

That's almost as bad a suggestion as reducing the QB from 4 lanes to 2 for bus lanes. You do realise that it would not help private traffic levels and would just push traffic to the Wolfe Tone & QB which are already over capacity?

That's exactly the reason to do it. Convert that Car Traffic into using other modes.Get more people to use buses, walk and cycle.

antoobrien

what_traffic wrote: »

That's exactly the reason to do it. Convert that Car Traffic into using other modes.Get more people to use buses, walk and cycle.

All it'll do is create an even more severe over capacity on existing route.

It won't make people use buses that aren't already using it because they're not going the to city as it is.

what_traffic

antoobrien wrote: »

It won't make people use buses that aren't already using it because they're not going the to city as it is.

Then why are they using the Salmon Weir Bridge in the heart of the City?

antoobrien

what_traffic wrote: »

Then why are they using the Salmon Weir Bridge in the heart of the City?

I'd often use it to avoid using the QB.

fcio

what_traffic wrote: »

Then why are they using the Salmon Weir Bridge in the heart of the City?

Any number of reasons

1. no bypass
2. no bypass
3. no bypass

...

4. no east<>west bus service every 10 minutes to connect where people live to where people work/shop, a bus service runing from 5am to at least 10pm since many people start work early or finish late
5. even if 4 happens this bus would be stuck in traffic same as the cars since there is no bus lane on western distributor road, quincentennial bridge, Bóthar na dTreabh so said buses would be stuck in same traffic as the rest


We need a bypass first to take cars out of the city then get cracking on bus routes and buses and cycling lanes for little ones whose parents don't care if they arrive alive.

dubhthach

fcio wrote: »

4. no east<>west bus service every 10 minutes to connect where people live to where people work/shop
5. even if 4 happens this bus would be stuck in traffic same as the cars since there is no bus lane on western distributor road, quincentennial bridge, Bóthar na dTreabh so said buses would be stuck in same traffic as the rest

Don't forget that CIÉ would insist on any such bus using Salmon Weir Bridge, "can't be running a bus service over a new bridge!, the drivers will want a pay rise!"

fcio

So I got bored and try to map the main city routes into squares, in an alternate universe where roads are build straight and 4way junctions exist (like across the pond) whole of galway would amount to a 5x6 block grid (maybe even a 6x6).
And yes there are cities where ~70K people live in a 5x6 block area.
h**p://i.imgur.com/CxJFOMq.jpg

but its quite obvious from a quick glance at a map that Galway (or i dont know spending like a day here) is severely constrained with only 1 major river crossing and 3 old bridges, and that galway is spread out since building densely is a nono apparently and having a straight road is foreign concept.

If ever get bored enough I will try to recreate Galway in Cim City should make for epic traffic jams

edit: aww cant post images yet. replace h**p with http to see my artwork

Sam Russell

fcio wrote: »

So I got bored and try to map the main city routes into squares, in an alternate universe where roads are build straight and 4way junctions exist (like across the pond) whole of galway would amount to a 5x6 block grid (maybe even a 6x6).
And yes there are cities where ~70K people live in a 5x6 block area.
h**p://i.imgur.com/CxJFOMq.jpg

but its quite obvious from a quick glance at a map that Galway (or i dont know spending like a day here) is severely constrained with only 1 major river crossing and 3 old bridges, and that galway is spread out since building densely is a nono apparently and having a straight road is foreign concept.

If ever get bored enough I will try to recreate Galway in Cim City should make for epic traffic jams

edit: aww cant post images yet. replace h**p with http to see my artwork

Looking at the crayon exercise, it does strike me that a freeflow of Bothar Na Tradth would actually meet the requirements. It would need to have cycle and bus lanes added, with overpasses to deal with the roundabouts, but it would get from the M6 to Barna, via QCB very well. It could incorporate the Tuam Road and the Headford Road as well. The QCB might need to be duplicated to provide east and western versions.

Overall, it would cause a lot less disruption.

dubhthach

Sam Russell wrote: »

Looking at the crayon exercise, it does strike me that a freeflow of Bothar Na Tradth would actually meet the requirements. It would need to have cycle and bus lanes added, with overpasses to deal with the roundabouts, but it would get from the M6 to Barna, via QCB very well. It could incorporate the Tuam Road and the Headford Road as well. The QCB might need to be duplicated to provide east and western versions.

Overall, it would cause a lot less disruption.

Surely the process of turning Bóthar na dTreabh into freeflow would cause massive disruption. One only has to look at similiar projects in Dublin such as Newlands and Newcastle Road Junction (N4).

In comparison a newbuild route would cause hardly any disruption to existing traffic as it's mostly offline. (Disruption would be around stuff like flyovers etc.)

antoobrien

Sam Russell wrote: »

Looking at the crayon exercise, it does strike me that a freeflow of Bothar Na Tradth would actually meet the requirements. It would need to have cycle and bus lanes added, with overpasses to deal with the roundabouts, but it would get from the M6 to Barna, via QCB very well. It could incorporate the Tuam Road and the Headford Road as well. The QCB might need to be duplicated to provide east and western versions.

Overall, it would cause a lot less disruption.

That's essentially the red route, which proposes NX type interchanges at
Briarhill
Ballybane
Tuam Rd
Ballinfoyle
Terryland
Newcaslte Rd
Corrib Park

That's 7 Newlands Cross/Lucan - Newcastle Road type junctions and you're claiming that it would cause less disruption?:eek:

Sam Russell

I'm thinking of the people who live in houses to be CPOd or nearby homes and villages.

Not all of these junctions would be as invasive as the work on Newlands Cross - perhaps the busiest junction in the country.

Even a small amount of re-jigging the roundabouts could relieve the appalling congestion. It is needed even if the bypass is built.

serfboard

Sam Russell wrote: »

Even a small amount of re-jigging the roundabouts could relieve the appalling congestion. It is needed even if the bypass is built.

Absolutely. It is supposed to have been done but do a bit of reading on the disagreements concerning the Menlo roundabout to see how easy this isn't.

Ditto with the hospital roundabout - a five-arm roundabout going into a four-arm junction. Someone's got to lose out - the question is - who?

The hospital entrance will be the one to close

Limerick74

Article by Sean Kyne TD in the Coonemara Journal today regarding N6 project: h**p://connemarajournal.ie/the-impact-of-not-proceeding-with-a-bypass-road-for-galway-is-immense/

Iwannahurl

Sean Kyne TD wrote:

A constraint on transport infrastructure will lead to a constraint in housing development and commercial development.

Translation into Hiberno-English: the roads are full of cars at present because of previous housing and commercial developments, so we need more road capacity to allow future expansion in the same manner.

Aard

It's disappointing that he takes it as a given that Galway cannot grow without a bypass. His fallacious starting point leads him down a road of one-way thinking.

I think the most telling word in his article is "expansion". He wants the footprint of the city to grow. The city's population density is one-third that of Dublin (a city that many consider to be "low density"). It doesn't need to grow outward any more.

serfboard

Iwannahurl wrote: »

the roads are full of cars at present because of previous housing and commercial developments

In particular, zoning a large industrial area on one side of the river, a large residential area on the other side of the river, one non-city-centre bridge, and next to no public transport joining the two.

Iwannahurl

I was told very recently that at least one major employer in the east of the city requires staff on shift work to leave 15 minutes early so that they can vacate the car park in order to avoid traffic chaos as the next shift arrives.

Any truth in this assertion?

Gerobrien25

Iwannahurl wrote: »

I was told very recently that at least one major employer in the east of the city requires staff on shift work to leave 15 minutes early so that they can vacate the car park in order to avoid traffic chaos as the next shift arrives.

Any truth in this assertion?

Yes, several companies in Parkmore start and finish their employees at different times in order to avoid traffic chaos as the next shift arrives

Iwannahurl

How would a "bypass" fix that, I wonder rhetorically...

L1011

Iwannahurl wrote: »

How would a "bypass" fix that, I wonder rhetorically...

Irrelevantly, more like.

Tightly timed shift work causes congestion problems on all forms of transport used, everywhere in the world. You can even end up with queues to get out of offices by foot.

I've no idea what angle you were trying to go for here but its utterly irrelevant to the discussion.

fcio

Iwannahurl wrote: »

How would a "bypass" fix that, I wonder rhetorically...

Workers needing to return to their homes (on west side of the city) would get home faster instead of sitting in the slow moving car park that the bothar na dtreabh/quincentennial bridge route becomes daily.

Same workers wouldn't need to drive thru' city center bridges either knocking down cyclists and making life harder for pedestrians either.

Imagine that now: a safer city for all + a better environment where fuel is not wasted on idling engines + happier & more productive population not wasting its time. Yes please where do I sign...

Iwannahurl

fcio wrote: »

Workers needing to return to their homes (on west side of the city) would get home faster instead of sitting in the slow moving car park that the bothar na dtreabh/quincentennial bridge route becomes daily.

Same workers wouldn't need to drive thru' city center bridges either knocking down cyclists and making life harder for pedestrians either.

Imagine that now: a safer city for all + a better environment where fuel is not wasted on idling engines + happier & more productive population not wasting its time. Yes please where do I sign...

From today's Galway Advertiser:

Athenry based Peter Feeney told the chamber, that as a council, this was one of the most important recommendations it would ever make. He said it was extremely important that the message went back to the Government that Galway County Council was in favour of the project. He made an impassioned case for the need for a new bypass.

“The traffic situation in Galway is in crisis, the roads are full, the car parks are full. There is a social and family element to this, people are spending hours in their cars, leaving children in crèches, early in the morning until late evening.

Emphasis added by me.

The curious quote above is in this report:

Galway delegation to travel to Europe to discuss bypass options

A deputation from Galway is to travel to Europe to discuss proposals for a new city bypass and the option of returning to the original route which failed at planning stage. It was decided at a special meeting of the Galway County Council on Monday evening that city and county councillors, local TDs, and community representatives will meet MEPs and members of the European Commission to discuss various options.

...

There is hope in some quarters that if the old application was made under Article 6.4 of The European Habitats Directive, it could be successfully advanced. According to this part of the legislation, a project may be carried out in spite of a negative assessment of a priority habitat, if it is proved prove there is no alternative, or for reasons of overriding public interest [IROPI], including those of a social or economic nature.