M6 - Galway City Ring Road [planning decision pending]

Zzippy

yer man! wrote: »

Another action group formed this week in Barna this time, great! This road will never get built by this NIMBYism.

Easy to criticise when your home isn't threatened... how about appreciating that people are fearful and worried because of a p1ss poor "public consultation", rather than slagging off genuine concern as NIMBYism. Expecting people to accept losing their home without quibble just so you can save a few minutes on your commute is just arrogant, not to mention ignorant.
I'd be a NIMBY too if I thought I could lose my home, and I've no doubt you would be too.

Zzippy

Zzippy wrote: »

Easy to criticise when your home isn't threatened... how about appreciating that people are fearful and worried because of a p1ss poor "public consultation", rather than slagging off genuine concern as NIMBYism. Expecting people to accept losing their home without quibble just so you can save a few minutes on your commute is just arrogant, not to mention ignorant.
I'd be a NIMBY too if I thought I could lose my home, and I've no doubt you would be too.

Just about every major road project ever has involved rooting someone out of their home. So in that sense, this project will be no different, except for the fact that the route that would have reduced the demolition to a minimum has already been abandoned due to the environmental issues.

Aard

One off houses are huge obstacles for linear infrastructure projects. Given the land take for the travelled way, and buffers either side, cuts/fills, curves in the line, etc there is generally no route that doesn't happen upon a one off house. It is an unfortunate legacy of a housing "strategy" that caters to the demand for non-planned rural living. One off housing still accounts for half of all granted planning permissions for housing (http://www.cso.ie/en/newsandevents/pressreleases/2014pressreleases/planningpermissionsquarter42014infographic/). This problem will rear its head indefinitely by the looks of things.

yer man!

Zzippy wrote: »

Easy to criticise when your home isn't threatened... how about appreciating that people are fearful and worried because of a p1ss poor "public consultation", rather than slagging off genuine concern as NIMBYism. Expecting people to accept losing their home without quibble just so you can save a few minutes on your commute is just arrogant, not to mention ignorant.
I'd be a NIMBY too if I thought I could lose my home, and I've no doubt you would be too.

Article in the Connacht Tribune mentioning the area that people are concerned with has little to no settlement in it at all, its described as a "tranquil" "peaceful" part of Galway that shouldn't be lost to infrastructure. I think it's exactly where a road should go! no where near people at all. Also this road will not save a "few minutes" it'll save considerable time.
My sister lives in Moycullen and I live in Oranmore, I had to do the journey about a month ago and it took over an hour..... it's 20km. This bypass will benefit everyone in Galway not just the likes of me needing to do the likes of that journey. Personally I think these routes are just to show that Galway has no other option but to build what was originally planned in the 90's, a route that the vast majority of people were in favour of, even those on the route.

hmmm

There's only so much "public consultation" you can have before you'd go insane - people with no clue telling you what they think is a better route, objections to a road going through Milo's field and could you not put in a 20k long tunnel instead, objections to the noise disruption to people living 27 miles away from the route.

Iwannahurl

Zzippy wrote: »

Easy to criticise when your home isn't threatened... how about appreciating that people are fearful and worried because of a p1ss poor "public consultation", rather than slagging off genuine concern as NIMBYism. Expecting people to accept losing their home without quibble just so you can save a few minutes on your commute is just arrogant, not to mention ignorant.

I'd be a NIMBY too if I thought I could lose my home, and I've no doubt you would be too.

Next It Might Be You.

antoobrien

http://galwaybayfm.ie/preferred-city-bypass-route-revealed-two-weeks/

Senior engineer Michael Timmins says the preferred route is on track to be revealed by the third week of April.

So we'll see what they've come up with in a couple of weeks.

Iwannahurl

More confirmation from the City Council that they are now, and always have been, seeking not a bypass but a cross-town route for car commuters:

Galway City Council wrote:

Most of the traffic that’s coming to the city is coming to stay in the city, it’s not coming to go past it. There’s a limited amount going to Connemara and out along by the coast road or wherever else, but if you think of anybody that’s living or working around Barna or Knocknacarra, they’re trying to get to the east of the city, and they’re the type of people you’re trying to get to use the road.

http://www.galwayindependent.com/20150408/news/architects-rally-to-support-college-S53088.html

Note that the City Council is trying to get these commuters to use a new road to traverse the city from west to east and back. They are not trying to get them to use public transport, for example.

Because that would be a different project, wouldn't it?

I always thought that the idea of a bypass was to separate out the traffic that wasn't going into the town from those who are, or to provide a way for traffic to get to the other side of the town without going through it.

Aard

Deleted User wrote: »

I always thought that the idea of a bypass was to separate out the traffic that wasn't going into the town from those who are, or to provide a way for traffic to get to the other side of the town without going through it.

(My emphasis)
The question is are we trying to provide a way for traffic, or to provide a way for people? It matters how the question is phrased. If it's the former then it's a given that any solution will be 100% car oriented. If it's about improving access and mobility for people as opposed to for traffic then a number of solutions are possible.

what_traffic

Iwannahurl wrote: »

Note that the City Council is trying to get these commuters to use a new road to traverse the city from west to east and back.

The Commuteway!
No wonder they were happy to have GCOB ref removed from the City Dev Plan 2011 ->2017

Title thread change needed?

antoobrien

Iwannahurl wrote: »

More confirmation from the City Council that they are now, and always have been, seeking not a bypass but a cross-town route for car commuters

That just shows up the bais that you have against cars really, since cars are not mentioned people are.

However the "objections" seem to be getting more (not less) frivolous, judging by the first line of that article:

The proposed N6 Galway City Transport Project will irreparably damage the NUI Galway campus, which only “barely” survived the building of the Quincentenary Bridge, a coalition of architects has said.

:rolleyes:

SeanW

Aard wrote: »

(My emphasis)
The question is are we trying to provide a way for traffic, or to provide a way for people? It matters how the question is phrased. If it's the former then it's a given that any solution will be 100% car oriented.

Cars don't drive themselves for the sake of it. People use cars to go places. Thus, providing for traffic = providing for people, or at least a good subset of this group.

If it's about improving access and mobility for people as opposed to for traffic then a number of solutions are possible.

None of which except a bypass will be of any use to someone travelling from Clifden to Dublin, or from anywhere to Connemara for example.

what_traffic

Aard wrote: »

(My emphasis)
The question is are we trying to provide a way for traffic, or to provide a way for people? It matters how the question is phrased. If it's the former then it's a given that any solution will be 100% car oriented. If it's about improving access and mobility for people as opposed to for traffic then a number of solutions are possible.

100% agree with ya
Would you be able to go into Galway City/County Council and explain this to them!

what_traffic

From the local rag
http://connachttribune.ie/bypass-route-to-be-unveiled-in-a-fortnight-011/

Iwannahurl

antoobrien wrote: »

That just shows up the bais that you have against cars really, since cars are not mentioned people are.

Actually the City Council is merely confirming the bias that I always suspected in them.

In their universe, "people" means cars, and cars can be regarded as entities with their own needs and wants. The same mentality is evidenced in the various "Bypass" threads.

In any case, the Director wants the "people" of Knocknacarra to use the longed-for Commuterway. How would "people" use such a road? It's a bit over-specced for walking and cycling.

antoobrien

Iwannahurl wrote: »

In any case, the Director wants the "people" of Knocknacarra to use the longed-for Commuterway. How would "people" use such a road? It's a bit over-specced for walking and cycling.

Roads are not generally specced for cars or people or or bikes but rather busses and trucks.

antoobrien

Serious question for everyone.

Is the current road network in and around Galway city sufficient for the current population (~75,000)?

If yes to the above, what in population your opinion would be a the (approximate) population level that would necessitate extending the road network:
85,000
100,000
125,000
Higher (give estimate)?

what_traffic

Iwannahurl wrote: »

In any case, the Director wants the "people" of Knocknacarra to use the longed-for Commuterway. How would "people" use such a road? It's a bit over-specced for walking and cycling.

Yet he will do nothing about Public Transport for this area? It is patchy for Knocknacarra at best.
The Western Distributor road could easily be upgraded at low cost to make it a Public Transport + could include good Cycling facilities along this corridor as well.

Middle Man

Iwannahurl wrote: »

Actually the City Council is merely confirming the bias that I always suspected in them.

In their universe, "people" means cars, and cars can be regarded as entities with their own needs and wants. The same mentality is evidenced in the various "Bypass" threads.

In any case, the Director wants the "people" of Knocknacarra to use the longed-for Commuterway. How would "people" use such a road? It's a bit over-specced for walking and cycling.

Why do you keep going on with this anti-car BS. I'm really getting sick and tired of the same old tired and broken record. If your grudge against motorists is because of bad driving then imbecilic anti road planning is not the answer. Yes, many motorists need a good hiding but punitive measures should hit individual motorists - not this old school 'one child has misbehaved so the whole class is being punished' nonsense. We need to be a bit smarter than that in this country and should instead look to something like GPS tracking with a sensible level of enforcement. Cars will always be needed in the foreseeable future. However, other modes also need investment so that we don't put all our eggs in one basket. In any case, Galway needs a bypass followed immediately by major public transport investment as a precondition for the bypass.

monument

Middle Man wrote: »

Why do you keep going on with this anti-car BS. I'm really getting sick and tired of the same old tired and broken record. If your grudge against motorists is because of bad driving then imbecilic anti road planning is not the answer. Yes, many motorists need a good hiding but punitive measures should hit individual motorists - not this old school 'one child has misbehaved so the whole class is being punished' nonsense. We need to be a bit smarter than that in this country and should instead look to something like GPS tracking with a sensible level of enforcement. Cars will always be needed in the foreseeable future. However, other modes also need investment so that we don't put all our eggs in one basket. In any case, Galway needs a bypass followed immediately by major public transport investment as a precondition for the bypass.

I'm really getting sick and tired of the same old tired and broken record from your posts which don't actually focus on what the person says -- his post is about the city council admitting the it's not bypass traffic that is the focus... What part of your post addresses that?

And then your posts go on to unrealistic grandstanding, ie bs about all modes being provided for or "public transport investment as a precondition for the bypass" -- it's very hand to see how such a condition would be enforced when they are not even remotely planning for such.

antoobrien wrote: »

Serious question for everyone.

Is the current road network in and around Galway city sufficient for the current population (~75,000)?

If yes to the above, what in population your opinion would be a the (approximate) population level that would necessitate extending the road network:
85,000
100,000
125,000
Higher (give estimate)?

The term "extending the road network" is so vague it's impossible to answer your question.

To expand on this: We could extend a road network Galway-style, or Houten-style or Dublin-style etc... and all of these are different, some radically so.

Middle Man

monument wrote: »

I'm really getting sick and tired of the same old tired and broken record from your posts which don't actually focus on what the person says -- his post is about the city council admitting the it's not bypass traffic that is the focus... What part of your post addresses that?

And then your posts go on to unrealistic grandstanding, ie bs about all modes being provided for or "public transport investment as a precondition for the bypass" -- it's very hand to see how such a condition would be enforced when they are not even remotely planning for such.



The term "extending the road network" is so vague it's impossible to answer your question.

Oh yeah, it's that other broken record that plays a variant of the same old song...

Yawn........

monument

Middle Man wrote: »

Oh yeah, it's that other broken record that plays a variant of the same old song...

Yawn........

It's clearly easy to sling muck without even trying to engage. Your posts are classic examples.

Middle Man

monument wrote: »

It's clearly easy to sling muck without even trying to engage. Your posts are classic examples.

Look mate - not building bypasses is so old school. Just look at the Netherlands in the Highways and Autobahns section of SkyScraperCity. Look at Britain too...

Move on will you - this is 2015 FFS!!!

antoobrien

monument wrote: »

And then your posts go on to unrealistic grandstanding, ie bs about all modes being provided for or "public transport investment as a precondition for the bypass" -- it's very hand to see how such a condition would be enforced when they are not even remotely planning for such.

They haven't released the plans so how do you know what they're planning for or excluding?

monument wrote: »

The term "extending the road network" is so vague it's impossible to answer your question.

Nothing vague about asking the question in the context of a thread about a proposal to do just that. This is a forum about roads infrastructure after all.

monument

Middle Man wrote: »

Look mate - not building bypasses is so old school. Just look at the Netherlands in the Highways and Autobahns section of SkyScraperCity. Look at Britain too...

Move on will you - this is 2015 FFS!!!

Are the road networks, housing dispersal, housing planning, rail/bus network, cycle networks etc in the Netherlands in any way comparable to Galway?

And if you look at the Netherlands you'll also see examples of successful fights against large urban roads and very modern examples of removal of large roads in city centres. But you can also find a lot of anything over these -- some Dutch cities and regions are very car centric.

Indeed it is 2015 and there's a world-wide trend in stopping thinking growing mass-motoring will solve urban transport problems.

antoobrien wrote: »

They haven't released the plans so how do you know what they're planning for or excluding?


Nothing vague about asking the question in the context of a thread about a proposal to do just that. This is a forum about roads infrastructure after all.

On one hand you're saying they haven't released important parts of the plans and then your saying we just accept vague phrases in that setting?! Great.

serfboard

Iwannahurl wrote: »

More confirmation from the City Council that they are now, and always have been, seeking not a bypass but a cross-town route for car commuters

Note that the City Council is trying to get these commuters to use a new road to traverse the city from west to east and back. They are not trying to get them to use public transport, for example.

Because that would be a different project, wouldn't it?

Let's be even more specific:

Galway City Council’s Director of Services Joe O&#8217 wrote: »

If you think of anybody that’s living or working around Barna or Knocknacarra, they’re trying to get to the east of the city, and they’re the type of people you’re trying to get to use the road.

To which my reply is:

Nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo!!!

Jesus, Joe, what is it about a "bypass" you don't understand? FFS. :mad:

IWH, it seems your cynicism was well merited.

Bypass - Yes. Commuteway - No.

antoobrien

monument wrote: »

On one hand you're saying they haven't released important parts of the plans

No I've said they have not released any of the plans yet, but they are somehow already being prejudged.

monument wrote: »

then your saying we just accept vague phrases in that setting?! Great.

It's a phrase that was intentionally chosen so as to not limit thinking to a bypass and try to prevent arguments about what constitutes or doesn't constitute a bypass or valid use of a road.

For example, in the Galway Public Transport Feasibility Study there are two bridges mentioned that could be suggested as proposed extensions to the road network(3.9):
"An Taisce recommends a proposed access road crossing Lough Atalia from Renmore" (doesn't say for whom, but presumably at least PT)
and
"Construct a bridge at Nimmos Pier to allow coastal traffic out of the city" (no mention of who submitted this suggestion).

So lets try this again - is the current road network sufficient for the population that it's supporting?

monument

serfboard wrote: »

Let's be even more specific:


To which my reply is:

Nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo!!!

Jesus, Joe, what is it about a "bypass" you don't understand? FFS. :mad:

IWH, it seems your cynicism was well merited.

Bypass - Yes. Commuteway - No.

The M50 is a classic example of a planned bypass which was allowed to be turned into a "Commuteway".

In Galway we're looking at the city planning for traffic to be moved largely from one side of the city to the other and call it a bypass, when it looks to be a "Commuteway" from the start.

By the way, I'm not against road upgrades...

antoobrien wrote: »

...So lets try this again - is the current road network sufficient for the population that it's supporting?

No, and not down or not just down to the population size.

There should be more Dutch-style grade segregation on the current routes towards the Quincentenary Bridge -- not at grade traffic lights and maybe even closing some current access points.

antoobrien

monument wrote: »

No, and not down or not just down to the population size.

There should be more Dutch-style grade segregation on the current routes towards the Quincentenary Bridge -- not at grade traffic lights and maybe even closing some current access points.

That's better.

So would it be fair to say that you don't think the roadspace and the use of the road space not sufficient?