M6 - Galway City Ring Road [planning decision pending]

MBSnr

SeanW wrote: »

"Screw motorists" it's his answer to everything.

Yeah I figured. :cool:

monument

SeanW wrote: »

No, what's insane is that there is a need to facilitate long distance travellers, e.g. Clifden-Dublin, Spiddal-Athenry etc and some people seem to think there's a benefit in continuing to force them through a city central area.

That's both ridiculous and bizarre.

What's ridiculous and bizarre is you think that people making such trips need to currently go near a "city central area".

dubhthach

Iwannahurl wrote: »

All the more reason to protect what habitats are left. 95% of raised bogs are gone.

Destruction of Raised Bogs by an agency of the state (Bord na Mona) isn't relevant, last time I checked there were no raised bogs to be found anywhere within within the study area.

Idbatterim

In Ireland, bogs are just bog and laws are for eejits. In the EU bogs (and limestone pavements) are habitats, and the law is a set of rules to be observed.

What about homes and peoples lives or should they be secondary?

What's insane is that some people regard a new expressway for car commuters as being more important than sustainable transport solutions.

it shouldnt be an either or situation. We are hearing about the extra billions the government now have to buy off the electorate in the forthcoming budget, why not spend it on important stuff, other than on the waste they plan on funding with it...

veryangryman

Back seat modding but..

Is there any need to discuss the merits or otherwise of this at this stage? Its going to be built barring catastrophe.

kippy

veryangryman wrote: »

Back seat modding but..

Is there any need to discuss the merits or otherwise of this at this stage? Its going to be built barring catastrophe.

I disagree.
I dont think this will ever get to a stage where it will be built, not under current rules/laws and options open to people who are against it.

Carawaystick

Iwannahurl wrote: »

In the EU bogs (and limestone pavements) are habitats, and the law is a set of rules to be observed.

No they are not, Germany consistently broke the budget deficit rules for years through the 200's and paid no penalties. They are now running bugetry surplusses 2x the EU legal limit, no penalties. France are breaching the deficit limits - No penalties.

Its an EU rule to implement the European Convention of Human Rights, but the EU has not done so.

monument

veryangryman wrote: »

Back seat modding but..

Is there any need to discuss the merits or otherwise of this at this stage? Its going to be built barring catastrophe.

More than a few projects planned in the past were scrapped at or after planning stages, this has not even got to planning but you think it's a sure thing?

Sam Russell

How long could free public transport in Galway (to reduce congestion) be offered using the €600m that this road will cost?

MBSnr

Sam Russell wrote: »

How long could free public transport in Galway (to reduce congestion) be offered using the €600m that this road will cost?

I seriously doubt that even 'free' public transport will make much difference to congestion. People want to use their cars - sometimes it's selfish and they 'could' use public transport. But in reality public transport does not suit the majority of commuters coming in from the outer reaches of the city, let alone the greater county area or beyond.

A free service we can't avail of is going to fix this how?

monument

Sam Russell wrote: »

How long could free public transport in Galway (to reduce congestion) be offered using the €600m that this road will cost?

If you were to redirect any possable funding: Why make public transport free? What's the case for that?

Iwannahurl

Not putting words in anyone's mouth, put perhaps the poster is making the point that €600 million is such a huge amount that you could even provide free public transport with it for quite a long time?

Incidentally, this is exactly what is (or was) available in Stockholm, starting with a trial run in 2009.

Free transport on buses for people with children in prams, and perhaps also on foot. I found out about it by chance, half way through a holiday a few years ago.

Iwannahurl

MBSnr wrote: »

public transport does not suit the majority of commuters coming in from the outer reaches of the city, let alone the greater county area or beyond.

A cross-city expressway is not going to help many of them either. 58% of traffic across the river is entirely within the city, and just 5% of all traffic would travel the entire length of a bypass (ARUP's stats).

dubhthach wrote: »

Destruction of Raised Bogs by an agency of the state (Bord na Mona) isn't relevant, last time I checked there were no raised bogs to be found anywhere within within the study area.

Whatever. Habitats need to be protected, and will be.

dubhthach

Iwannahurl wrote: »

A cross-city expressway is not going to help many of them either. 58% of traffic across the river is entirely within the city, and just 5% of all traffic would travel the entire length of a bypass (ARUP's stats).

Your constant use of Expressway is rather interesting, can you point out where in the Irish statue book such a beast is defined and what is the supposed difference from a motorway/Type 1 DC.

But on other hand 42% of traffic crossing the current bridges originate outside the city, the 5% is typical FUD what about traffic going Dublin to Cliftden by getting off at N59 this traffic automatically falls into your 95% category.

Schadenfreudia

Iwannahurl wrote: »

"You're on Earth. There's no cure for that." ~Samuel Beckett.

All the more reason to protect what habitats are left.

You missed my point; the entire surface of the earth is a "habitat". It is constantly changing, without any human help. Blocking important human infrastructure to "preserve" a man-made bog full of bog-lice is insane.

Insanity is defined as loss of a sense of proportion and loss of contact with reality.

And "car dependency" is not a problem, it's a mark of modern technological society. And if it's global warming you are concerned about blocking the Galway bypass will not help in the slightest.

Technological improvements to reduce the carbon emissions of cars, globally, is the only thing that will help.

The number of cars in the world is going to double in the next 20 years - King Canute had a better chance of turning back the sea with a fork than daft Euro Greens have of changing that.

dubhthach

Schadenfreudia wrote: »

King Canute had a better chance of turning back the sea with a fork than daft Euro Greens have of changing that.

People misunderstand Canute, he was trying to show his "courtiers" that as King he wasn't omnipotent

Schadenfreudia

dubhthach wrote: »

People misunderstand Canute, he was trying to show his "courtiers" that as King he wasn't omnipotent

Or he could have been trying to show anti-car fanatics what they are actually trying to achieve!

Sam Russell

Iwannahurl wrote: »

Not putting words in anyone's mouth, put perhaps the poster is making the point that €600 million is such a huge amount that you could even provide free public transport with it for quite a long time?

Incidentally, this is exactly what is (or was) available in Stockholm, starting with a trial run in 2009.

Exactly. I am making that point.

Free public transport within Galway and out a bit would be used by quite a few current car commuters. Enough might do it to reduce traffic volumes that the congestion would be reduced and a pleasant result for all.

Travelling by public transport means less parking. It takes longer to travel by public transport but if you do not have to find parking, much of that time saved is lost. Also, if the bus is free, no time is wasted while passengers pay for tickets or drivers inspect passes/tickets, so buses travel faster.

It would certainly be worth testing out, even if it were just for school kids.

dubhthach

Schadenfreudia wrote: »

Or he could have been trying to show anti-car fanatics what they are actually trying to achieve!

Of course there's always the rise of non Hydrocarbon car's. For example Guardian posted this rather interesting graph based on predicted numbers of electrical/hydrogen cars on the road in Britain in 2030 (15 years away)

dubhthach

Sam Russell wrote: »

Exactly. I am making that point.

Free public transport within Galway and out a bit would be used by quite a few current car commuters. Enough might do it to reduce traffic volumes that the congestion would be reduced and a pleasant result for all.

Travelling by public transport means less parking. It takes longer to travel by public transport but if you do not have to find parking, much of that time saved is lost. Also, if the bus is free, no time is wasted while passengers pay for tickets or drivers inspect passes/tickets, so buses travel faster.

It would certainly be worth testing out, even if it were just for school kids.

The main issue for Public Transport is the lack of investment in relevant infrastructure. For example in Galway there needs to be in place buslanes on for example:

• WDR
• QCB
• Seán Mulvoy Road
• Tuam Road

I'd go further and convert the old N6 dual carriageway out to Oranmore to 2+2 with bus lanes. That way you have a continuous bus corridor from end of WDR to Oranmore that would bypass City center.

Sam Russell

dubhthach wrote: »

The main issue for Public Transport is the lack of investment in relevant infrastructure. For example in Galway there needs to be in place buslanes on for example:

• WDR
• QCB
• Seán Mulvoy Road
• Tuam Road

I'd go further and convert the old N6 dual carriageway out to Oranmore to 2+2 with bus lanes. That way you have a continuous bus corridor from end of WDR to Oranmore that would bypass City center.

Spilling paint onto the road is not going to cost €600m, and could be quite cost effective - particularly if the buses that use the bus lanes are frequent and actually go where people need them to go.

Schadenfreudia

dubhthach wrote: »

Of course there's always the rise of non Hydrocarbon car's. For example Guardian posted this rather interesting graph based on predicted numbers of electrical/hydrogen cars on the road in Britain in 2030 (15 years away)

Agree fully. that is the future; not trying to curtail the number of cars.

Obviously in dense urban centres good public transport makes complete sense - but not as a substitute for the ring-roads and by-passes that make modern cities (and modern civilization) work.

Sam Russell

Schadenfreudia wrote: »

Agree fully. that is the future; not trying to curtail the number of cars.

Obviously in dense urban centres good public transport makes complete sense - but not as a substitute for the ring-roads and by-passes that make modern cities (and modern civilization) work.

But only if you assume car ownership is necessary for 'modern civilisation'. In the early 1900s, Los Angeles, (and many other American cities), had a very good tram system that was bought up by General Motors and shut down to create a predominately car based city so that they created a market for their cars. In the 1950s, Dublin shut down its very good tram system because it was 'old fashioned' (check out Tod Andrews). Frequent low-cost public transport is the requirement for 'modern civilisation' not car ownership. Not everybody can drive a car - think of the old, the disabled, the visually impaired, and the children.

Anyway, where do we park all these cars? Currently they are parked on Galway's congested roads, blocking the very roads required for public transport.

More roads increase the demand for cars that then those cars require more roads.

Build a park-n-ride system, make the out of town car parks free and subsidise the bus services, would probable solve about half the congestion problems.

Sam Russell

Deleted User wrote: »

Build a park-n-ride system, make the out of town car parks free and subsidise the bus services, would probable solve about half the congestion problems.

And if you solve half the congestion problem, you will probably solve the other half because of the lower numbers on the road.

Sam Russell

Sam Russell wrote: »

And if you solve half the congestion problem, you will probably solve the other half because of the lower numbers on the road.

the other half are those going via Galway, rather than to Galway.
If the city bound commuters are on buses, they should see a major reduction in journey times

Iwannahurl

Schadenfreudia wrote: »

You missed my point; the entire surface of the earth is a "habitat". It is constantly changing, without any human help. Blocking important human infrastructure to "preserve" a man-made bog full of bog-lice is insane.

Insanity is defined as loss of a sense of proportion and loss of contact with reality.

And "car dependency" is not a problem, it's a mark of modern technological society. And if it's global warming you are concerned about blocking the Galway bypass will not help in the slightest.

Technological improvements to reduce the carbon emissions of cars, globally, is the only thing that will help.

The number of cars in the world is going to double in the next 20 years - King Canute had a better chance of turning back the sea with a fork than daft Euro Greens have of changing that.

You missed my point: planet Earth is our only habitat. Therefore all the more reason to strive to preserve it in its entirety, and in particular unique or special habitats (eg those designated SACs). "Bog-lice" are a red herring.

Insanity is defined as doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result. A well-known example is building more roads to reduce traffic congestion while planning for more car use, and so on and on.

Car dependence is most certainly a problem, for numerous reasons to do with health, the environment, social capital, the economy etc. And if car dependence was not giving rise to problems in the area of transportation policy specifically, why the hullaballoo over a supposed "bypass" for the past twenty years or so?

The answer is obvious: land use "planning" and transportation policy for several decades has been almost entirely centred around accommodating, and coping with, rising levels of car use and car dependence. €600 million of scarce public funds, in a country which cannot even afford to run a proper health service and in a city that cannot manage to properly house its most needy citizens, is being demanded for the construction of a new road to alleviate the problems caused by the "planning" failures of previous decades.

If driving children a couple of kilometres to school every day, for example, as they grow collectively fatter by the day and ensure that Ireland is set to become the most obese country in Europe by 2030, is one "mark of modern technological society" then we have lost our perspective entirely.

Interestingly, the Dutch, "daft Euro Greens" as they must inevitably be, have a higher level of car ownership than the Irish, but have found ways to control both car dependence and the rising tide of obesity in the population: http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/dutch-turn-around-obesity-epidemic-trend-329090.html

The number of cars powered by inefficient, polluting, climate-changing heat engines is indeed growing, which is a compelling reason to constrain car use, not facilitate it. Switching to a different method of propulsion will not solve other problems, such as the critical issue of infrastructural capacity.

dubhthach

And if we were in Netherlands a city the size of Galway would have a proper bypass. Posting copious links to external sites isn't gonna do you any favours, if you want to discuss childhood obesity, the chronic underfunding of Health service by the Government or social housing take it to the appropriate forum.

Iwannahurl

Sam Russell wrote: »

But only if you assume car ownership is necessary for 'modern civilisation'. In the early 1900s, Los Angeles, (and many other American cities), had a very good tram system that was bought up by General Motors and shut down to create a predominately car based city so that they created a market for their cars. In the 1950s, Dublin shut down its very good tram system because it was 'old fashioned' (check out Tod Andrews). Frequent low-cost public transport is the requirement for 'modern civilisation' not car ownership. Not everybody can drive a car - think of the old, the disabled, the visually impaired, and the children.

Anyway, where do we park all these cars? Currently they are parked on Galway's congested roads, blocking the very roads required for public transport.

More roads increase the demand for cars that then those cars require more roads.

You're making far too much sense to be right. Surely you realise that taking up finite road space in a mediaeval urban centre is a mark of an advanced technological society?

It's a simple equation: more cars = more progressive. It's why the Chinese are becoming increasingly Westernised, motorised and supersized.

And it's why countries such as Ghana are teeming with cars, trundling down the highways to the malls. All in the name of "progress" dontcha know.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iU16UcdixVc

dubhthach

Irrelevant to the thread at hand. Get back on topic.

Where's Mysterious and his 10,000 tractors when ye need him