M6 - Galway City Ring Road [planning decision pending]

lucernarian

kippy wrote: »

With respect, the figure mentioned in that document for the population of Limerick city is the same one I used above.
The figure of 102 K would result if the electoral area were increased. Again the figures are form 2011

Dublin and indeed other cities were able to develop projects before their ringroads were in place. What does this actually tell you?

The Limerick city boundaries were artificially small and excluded large parts that are actually Limerick city. Wikipedia use the metropolitan district definition and I'm comparing like with like. The Galway metropolitan area population is 75,000. You're hardly going to continue saying that Galway is in fact bigger than Limerick?? The 2016 census will reflect the reclassification and the moving of EDs into the new metropolitan area. All the outer parts of the city being excluded before in census figures was just an anomaly of boundaries.

What does the second point tell me? That it is indeed possible to develop greater public transport infrastructure without there being bypasses in place, contrary to Schadenfreudia's claim. I still think a bypass is required but not a €500 million one - when it is of very limited national benefit. Surely even the people of Galway would prefer a cheaper scheme with the savings spend on other necessary infrastructure - double tracking to Oranmore or Athenry, N59 road improvements, a whole heap of cycling and bus priority measures in the city, hospital improvements in Ballinasloe and UHG, schools, broadband... How much could you do with even €200 million in savings!

kippy

lucernarian wrote: »

The Limerick city boundaries were artificially small and excluded large parts that are actually Limerick city. Wikipedia use the metropolitan district definition and I'm comparing like with like. The Galway metropolitan area population is 75,000. You're hardly going to continue saying that Galway is in fact bigger than Limerick?? The 2016 census will reflect the reclassification and the moving of EDs into the new metropolitan area. All the outer parts of the city being excluded before in census figures was just an anomaly of boundaries.

Fair enough.
A few hundred million spent for the benefit of 25K people.
My point stands. The money isn't the issue here.

lucernarian

kippy wrote: »

Fair enough.
A few hundred million spent for the benefit of 25K people.
My point stands. The money isn't the issue here.

That's mind-blowing - I gave several reasons why the Limerick tunnel is more important to the country. Also some of the money is being paid back via tolls. 25k? 100k plus a clutch of intercity routes vital to goods transport.

Money is everything, and claiming "money isn't the issue here" when it could pay for far more sustainable and CBA-effective improvements.... I'm lost for words.

Iwannahurl

I can't find the documentation online, but iirc the population of the pompously-titled Galway Metropolitan Smarter Travel Area is c. 85,000. I believe 47% of the GMSTA population lives 4 km or less from work or education.

Galway is no metropolis, and a €500 million expressway is a sledgehammer to crack a nut imo.

Schadenfreudia

lucernarian wrote: »

My point is easily verified by the development or lack thereof of DART plans over the last 4 decades. You should have seen that I used the words "rail projects", which hasn't been a feature of mainline rail barring stock renewal, safety improvements and closure of track with few exceptions in recent history.

I read what you said; I clarified that major investment in mainline (inter-city) rail makes little sense.

And if we talk about the €500 (a price ludicrously increased by the bog louse) for the Galway bypass it serves as a bypass and a distribution road.

Compare that with the completely pointless €100 million on the empty toy trains on the Ennis - Galway line! Its major contribution to transport is to cause traffic jams north of Oranmore at the rush hour.

The M50 wasn't completed until many or most of the public transport infrastructure projects of Dublin that exist today were completed also

That's simply not true; most of the M50 was completed, bar the section between Sandyford and Shankill before the first Luas line opened.

The Dart was simply the electrification of an existing line which was built in the 1830s and 1840s - I'll concede that was before the M50!

I presume you are not implying in your comment on Tallaght that a mainline rail connection would in any remote way have contributed to the city infrastructure compared to the current combination of the M50 and the Luas red lines?

What Tallaght/Saggart/Citywest has actually got is vastly better than what they would have if the "reservation" for the mainline spur had actually been built.

This road v. metro/commuter rail systems"debate" is utterly sterile; both are required.

The bypassed towns you refer to in most cases are mere villages by European standards and the idea that they could sustain a public transport infrastructure apart from the through bus routes and rail lines that already exist in many cases is nonsense.

As is the idea that you can develop urban transport in Galway without a bypass and outer ring road being in place.

lucernarian

Schadenfreudia wrote: »

I read what you said; I clarified that major investment in mainline (inter-city) rail makes little sense.

A bogus clarification. The point I made relating to how the Dublin Transport Plan of 1971 gives ample evidence of how far Dublin is behind comparable European cities for rail transport. We still managed to build Phase 1 of the DART scheme at least despite the idiots of the day calling for the money to be spent elsewhere. And didn't the govt. do just that with EU money meant for the DART in the early 80s? CIE had to fork out themselves for the difference.

And if we talk about the €500 (a price ludicrously increased by the bog louse) for the Galway bypass it serves as a bypass and a distribution road.

If that's meant to boost the case that it's also a €500 million distributor road for a medium-sized town in European terms... You'd be sorely mistaken.

Compare that with the completely pointless €100 million on the empty toy trains on the Ennis - Galway line! Its major contribution to transport is to cause traffic jams north of Oranmore at the rush hour.

They're not empty, certainly not when I used it on a Friday but still two wrongs don't make a right. At least the WRC has regional and strategic public transport benefits across 3 counties and cost less than 20% of this proposal...

That's simply not true; most of the M50 was completed, bar the section between Sandyford and Shankill before the first Luas line opened.

You should know what the word "completed" means. What I said is true. The M50 clearly wasn't complete while they were burying Carrickmines in gravel.

The Dart was simply the electrification of an existing line which was built in the 1830s and 1840s - I'll concede that was before the M50!

"Simply"... It cost tens of millions in late 1970s terms: the replacement of some road bridges, the opening of at least 2 new stations, a whole fleet of EMUs and also track replacement and the likes especially south of Dun Laoghaire.

I presume you are not implying in your comment on Tallaght that a mainline rail connection would in any remote way have contributed to the city infrastructure compared to the current combination of the M50 and the Luas red lines?

What Tallaght/Saggart/Citywest has actually got is vastly better than what they would have if the "reservation" for the mainline spur had actually been built.

A red herring. There is no "rail connection" or "M50 and luas comparison" to be made. Both could have been built in the land provided if Dublin County Council and the govt. were more competent. I think rail could compare favourably vs Luas but that depends and is just going off-topic. I'm saying it would be easier to develop light rail and public transport if we don't focus on expensive road solutions for every problem. Another obvious example is that bus lanes and QBCs were developed in Dublin before, and during the construction of the M50. Galway may need a bypass anyway, but does it need a bypass to provide better bus and cycle lanes and higher frequency bus routes? Not at all.

This road v. metro/commuter rail systems"debate" is utterly sterile; both are required.

€500 million bypass, i.e. "this road" is required? Given that I haven't even seen a CBA of the revised route option by Arup, I'd like to see more evidence of this. As a taxpayer, and as one of the vast majority of people in this country who will get little benefit from this project, I deserve better than a €500 million scheme to benefit Galway city and environs.

The bypassed towns you refer to in most cases are mere villages by European standards and the idea that they could sustain a public transport infrastructure apart from the through bus routes and rail lines that already exist in many cases is nonsense.

What's that about? I didn't refer to any bypassed towns in the first place except for Limerick. The substantial projects for interurban highways in this country have almost been completed. I don't know where this "25 to 30 years behind Europe" idea comes from. I can't see the objective basis for this claim.

As is the idea that you can develop urban transport in Galway without a bypass and outer ring road being in place.

Do you somehow mean a bypass as distinct to an outer ring road? If by development you mean any transport-related improvement, then it's your idea that's nonsense I'm afraid. I support the idea of *a bypass of some kind* but if you think that there is nothing that can be done to alleviate the transport problems of Galway in the meantime, you must have missed out on a variety of evidence and posts to the contrary.

kippy

lucernarian wrote: »

That's mind-blowing - I gave several reasons why the Limerick tunnel is more important to the country. Also some of the money is being paid back via tolls. 25k? 100k plus a clutch of intercity routes vital to goods transport.

Money is everything, and claiming "money isn't the issue here" when it could pay for far more sustainable and CBA-effective improvements.... I'm lost for words.

The 25K came from the difference in population between Galway and limerick and the couple of million came from the reported cost of the Limerick Tunnel versus the predicted cost of the bypass.

Money is not everything. If anything over the past number of years you should have seen that the money being talked about to improve the lives of tens of thousands as has improved the lives of tens of thousands, is but a drop in the ocean in the whole scheme of things.

If you want to do a CBA, you need to have some viable alternatives on the table to see where the money is best spent. Not one viable alternate to provide a CBA with in the case of the Galway bypass.

kippy

Iwannahurl wrote: »

I can't find the documentation online, but iirc the population of the pompously-titled Galway Metropolitan Smarter Travel Area is c. 85,000. I believe 47% of the GMSTA population lives 4 km or less from work or education.

Galway is no metropolis, and a €500 million expressway is a sledgehammer to crack a nut imo.

Galway will never be a metropolis if it doesn't have the links to help it grow and expand etc and unless someone puts other alternatives on the table this is the only sledgehammer available at the moment.

Schadenfreudia

lucernarian wrote: »

A bogus clarification.

No, a clarification, you appeared to be confused.

If that's meant to boost the case that it's also a €500 million distributor road for a medium-sized town in European terms... You'd be sorely mistaken.

It is boosting the case for a badly needed bypass plus distributor road.

They're not empty, certainly not when I used it on a Friday but still two wrongs don't make a right.

Indeed, and of course each train carriers a driver. My bad. But the emptiest luas I've ever seen on the Ballyogan Road had twice as many people as the busiest toy train to Ennis I've ever seen.

I think the stats tend to favour my anecdotal observations on this issue

You should know what the word "completed" means.

I do; and I specifically qualified what I meant. You contention was that the luas lines were built before the M50, which is rubbish.

The M50 clearly wasn't complete while they were burying Carrickmines in gravel.

You'll be relieved to hear that, far from being buried in gravel, Carrickmines is a thriving area; it wonderful quality of life made possible by the M50 and the luas line.

Only in Ireland would the electrification of 20 miles of 150 year old track be a big deal and the subject of endless "debate" and parochial whining; a scenario repeated with the luas in the 1990s. That is part of why we are where we are with transport infrastructure.

The Galway bypass v public transport gab-fest is just the latest manifestation of that National disease.

Another obvious example is that bus lanes and QBCs were developed in Dublin before, and during the construction of the M50.

With the exception of portions of a handful of routes the QBCs competing with road traffic at every set of lights and junction are a pathetically inadequate gesture - as the continued drift away from bus travel indicates. The first partly effective QBC (46A route) was located on a six-lane dual carriageway which if you attempted to build it today would be opposed by the usual anti-car lobby.

There is no QBC of any effectiveness that doesn't use those radial dual-carriageways inside the M50 on former national routes.

As a taxpayer, and as one of the vast majority of people in this country who will get little benefit from this project, I deserve better than a €500 million scheme to benefit Galway city and environs.

As a Dubliner I'll get no direct benefit from the project - but it's that type of attitude, ironically, has public transport where it is in Ireland. As a taxpayer and a motorist who seems 80% of car and road related taxation devoted to other areas I find it very difficult to get to concerned that the Galway bypass might spend a few extra % of my taxation on roads. (Though I seriously begrudge the €200 million of that total caused by a ludicrous re-direction of the road in favour of a few acres of unexceptional bog).

I don't know where this "25 to 30 years behind Europe" idea comes from. I can't see the objective basis for this claim.

Our current motorway/bypass system was largely built in the past 15 years; that 25 to 30 years behind the rest of Western Europe.

Do you somehow mean a bypass as distinct to an outer ring road?

The proposed road would serve as both a bypass and an outer ring. You seem to have difficulty grasping that?

Iwannahurl

kippy wrote: »

Galway will never be a metropolis if it doesn't have the links to help it grow and expand etc and unless someone puts other alternatives on the table this is the only sledgehammer available at the moment.

Galway will never be a metropolis, full stop.

It's grandiosity on the part of the local authorities to think that it is, or will be in future, ever. Road schemes such as the proposed €500 million are part of such thinking.

Galway's traffic congestion is not the result of metropolitan expansion but of poor planning (and worse management) in the city and county.

Listen to local radio in Galway these days and you will already hear talk of daily traffic congestion disappearing.

Why? Was a bypass built overnight for the imaginary metropolis?

No, it's just that some schools are closed.

hardy_buck

monument wrote: »

Where does it say that there's funding ring-fenced for the bypass?

Old article but:
http://connachttribune.ie/bypass-plan-back-road/
Brian Walsh TD has given a "cast-iron guarantee" that upon planning it will get funded..

monument

hardy_buck wrote: »

Old article but:
http://connachttribune.ie/bypass-plan-back-road/
Brian Walsh TD has given a "cast-iron guarantee" that upon planning it will get funded..

Anything from a Government source, rather than a backbencher?

hardy_buck

monument wrote: »

Anything from a Government source, rather than a backbencher?

Well, considering his party is in government...
I would bet a substantial amount this is much more likely to receive funding than any luas equivalent.

monument

hardy_buck wrote: »

Well, considering his party is in government...
I would bet a substantial amount this is much more likely to happen than any luas equivalent.

None of that adds up to the project having ring fenced funding, which was the claim I was responding to.

hardy_buck

monument wrote: »

None of that adds up to the project having ring fenced funding, which was the claim I was responding to.

Well then I humbly concede that I may have been mistaken regarding the ring-fencing claim, however to say that there is no indication of financial backing whatsoever wouldn't be true either.

Sam Russell

Of course it will be ring fenced - it is a ring road after all.

kippy

Iwannahurl wrote: »

Galway will never be a metropolis, full stop.

It's grandiosity on the part of the local authorities to think that it is, or will be in future, ever. Road schemes such as the proposed €500 million are part of such thinking.

Galway's traffic congestion is not the result of metropolitan expansion but of poor planning (and worse management) in the city and county.

Listen to local radio in Galway these days and you will already hear talk of daily traffic congestion disappearing.

Why? Was a bypass built overnight for the imaginary metropolis?

No, it's just that some schools are closed.

So there are no traffic problems in this city - that's great to know.

There were no doubt major issues and mistakes made with planning. I don't think anyone denies that. That however is in the past and is not something that can be reversed - or do you suggest that it can be reversed? Perhaps move some of the factories and major buildings in Parkmore/Ballybrit across to the west side, or maybe move families from the westside to the east side?
Or perhaps set up a monorail for tourists wishing to traverse the city into connemara?

We live in the present, we have to adapt for the future, whatever has happened in the past has happened. The reality is there is a requirement for another crossing for the Corrib and if this can be combined with a better link between east and west galway and all that entails, go for it.

It's not an either or option, this road can be built and further options for busses/trains/bikes can also be looked at.
There seem to be a lot of people who don't appreciate this.

monument

kippy wrote: »

It's not an either or option, this road can be built and further options for busses/trains/bikes can also be looked at.
There seem to be a lot of people who don't appreciate this.

It is either or -- there is no way Galway is getting both a commuter bypass / expressway and a Luas line.

Middle Man

kippy wrote: »

So there are no traffic problems in this city - that's great to know.

There were no doubt major issues and mistakes made with planning. I don't think anyone denies that. That however is in the past and is not something that can be reversed - or do you suggest that it can be reversed? Perhaps move some of the factories and major buildings in Parkmore/Ballybrit across to the west side, or maybe move families from the westside to the east side?
Or perhaps set up a monorail for tourists wishing to traverse the city into connemara?

We live in the present, we have to adapt for the future, whatever has happened in the past has happened. The reality is there is a requirement for another crossing for the Corrib and if this can be combined with a better link between east and west galway and all that entails, go for it.

It's not an either or option, this road can be built and further options for busses/trains/bikes can also be looked at.
There seem to be a lot of people who don't appreciate this.

Indeed - many Irish people continue the tradition of being behind Europe in terms of transport ideologies - latest EU thinking seems to accept the need for cars while at the same time, stressing the avoidance of over dependance - in other words, the right tool for the right job - just as I've been screaming on the thread. We're only where the Americans are in terms of transport thinking - anti-car ideologies are becoming hip there ATM (knee jerk reaction), but they'll mature in time I guess.

What's wrong in this country is that the powers that be simply wants to take the easy way out - build more roads and if that doesn't work, get people cycling - well that won't work either. This country is going to have to get used to the idea of rail investment and that's it! Take Dublin, we have the M50 that works pretty well most of the time, but not at rush hour. However, the M50 is not the tool for commuter journeys - where's the Dublin Underground??? Don't blame roads!

Galway: The bypass should be built as a motorway so that it's future proofed. However, it needs to be granted permission on a very strict condition - that a Luas style transit system commences once the motorway opens - this would have to be subject to minimum catchment and within a strict time frame. This is what I'd do...

1) Commence planning on the Galway Luas immediately - Galway's traffic problem could be declared as a state of emergency in order to accelerate the process for a railway order. This Luas line could go from Barna (would need to be developed more) via the Western Distributor, Rahoon, University Hospital, Galway Cathedral, Eyre Square, Mervue, Ballybane and on to Doughiska.

2) Once the rail order documentation is complete, this would be submitted along with the Galway Bypass to ABP for approval.

3) When both schemes are approved, the Bypass would go to tender under a PPP scheme similar to that of the Gort to Tuam motorway. This would take the upfront investment money for the Bypass of the state books. That same funding would then be diverted to the Galway Luas Line.

4) Upon the commencement of motorway construction, the tender process for the Luas line would begin immediately.

5) Once the motorway opens to traffic, motorists will be given about 3 weeks to adjust their travel patters after which 4 existing lanes of traffic across the Corrib would be taken out of circulation - one lane each way on the Quin Centenary Bridge would be reallocated to Buses while the Salmon Weir Bridge would close to traffic immediately (this would be on the route of the Luas line).

6) Preliminary works on the Luas line (utility diversions etc) would commence immediately so that track laying can begin as soon as possible.

7) As the Luas line is underway, the concept of a mainline commuter rail service for Athenry could be explored - further stations could be built at Oranmore East, Roscam and Murrough - track doubling to at least Oranmore should be looked at.

Seriously, I really don't know why I'm having to spell this out!!!!!

The powers that be really need to get off their backsides and invest!

Middle Man

monument wrote: »

It is either or -- there is no way Galway is getting both a commuter bypass / expressway and a Luas line.

Really!

Are we seriously that lazy in this country??? :mad:

hardy_buck

Middle Man wrote: »

Really!

Are we seriously that lazy in this country??? :mad:

It's moreso to do with a lack of funds sadly...

kippy

monument wrote: »

It is either or -- there is no way Galway is getting both a commuter bypass / expressway and a Luas line.

As I said, "It's not an either or option, this road can be built and further options for
busses/trains/bikes can also be looked at."
If there is a case for a metro within the city then it can be put together and the ball started rolling on it.

This road was suggested decades ago and it'll be at least another decade before it is in place. If the same dilly dallying takes place that has taken place on most of the road infrastructure in this country over the last number of decades traffic can only get worse.

Middle Man

hardy_buck wrote: »

It's moreso to do with a lack of funds sadly...

Build the motorway as a PPP and directly fund the Luas.

kippy

hardy_buck wrote: »

It's moreso to do with a lack of funds sadly...

Lack of funds - really?
That's very obviously nonsense.
There has been a pull back in infrastructural projects in the past number of years - no doubt, however that is set to be reversed.

I am not suggesting that there is a need for a metro etc however the funds will be there to at least look into it.

monument

kippy wrote: »

As I said, "It's not an either or option, this road can be built and further options for
busses/trains/bikes can also be looked at."
If there is a case for a metro within the city then it can be put together and the ball started rolling on it.

This road was suggested decades ago and it'll be at least another decade before it is in place. If the same dilly dallying takes place that has taken place on most of the road infrastructure in this country over the last number of decades traffic can only get worse.

Are you really suggesting that a billion or more could in any way be spent on both a commuter bypass and Luas for Galway?

Any what are you talking about when you say "a metro"? A metro line for Galway? Are you kidding?

marno21

Middle Man wrote: »

Build the motorway as a PPP and directly fund the Luas.

A tolled PPP? Watch then as traffic numbers are extremely low and the government has to make up the shortfall therefore directly funding it.

There are a lot of road projects across the country in urgent need of attention (e.g. M20, N22 etc.), it would be ideal if we could invest all this money in a Galway city bypass and a monorail solution but I can't see both getting the funding.

Also, it's a pity this road wasn't built a long time ago. Imagine if the M50 or N40 had to be built from scratch today.

hardy_buck

kippy wrote: »

Lack of funds - really?
That's very obviously nonsense.
There has been a pull back in infrastructural projects in the past number of years - no doubt, however that is set to be reversed.

I am not suggesting that there is a need for a metro etc however the funds will be there to at least look into it.

They can't even complete half decent commuter rail in Dublin and you're convinced that it could happen in Galway?

kippy

monument wrote: »

Are you really suggesting that a billion or more could in any way be spent on both a commuter bypass and Luas for Galway?

Any what are you talking about when you say "a metro"? A metro line for Galway? Are you kidding?

Im not suggesting anything of the sort.
I am suggesting that the feasibilty of it could be looked into and IF there is a case for it, I am sure the money could be found.
You need to realise that these things take decades to get into place. IF there is a case for a light rail network then it may be two decades if even before it is in place.
The reality is this road is a over a decade down the process and while the current design isn't, in my opinion the best option that has been presented, it is needed.

Galway, as a city hasn't had a major infrastructural investment in at least the past decade or more, it needs this.

Middle Man

marno21 wrote: »

A tolled PPP? Watch then as traffic numbers are extremely low and the government has to make up the shortfall therefore directly funding it.

There are a lot of road projects across the country in urgent need of attention (e.g. M20, N22 etc.), it would be ideal if we could invest all this money in a Galway city bypass and a monorail solution but I can't see both getting the funding.

Also, it's a pity this road wasn't built a long time ago. Imagine if the M50 or N40 had to be built from scratch today.

A non tolled PPP like Gort to Tuam - this road is to get as many cars out of Galway as possible. The economic benefit from the Bypass should outweigh the cost of PPP payments over a 30 year concession period.

kippy

hardy_buck wrote: »

They can't even complete half decent commuter rail in Dublin and you're convinced that it could happen in Galway?

Im not convinced at all.
I'm suggesting that to appease the people you want to see a rail network ahead of this project that a proper feasibilty study could be done to determine if it is needed.
At the same time the road work can continue. There are those that genuinely want to hold up this project and prioritise a set of rail links forgetting that there's a least a decade of stagnation ahead if that is to happen.