M6 - Galway City Ring Road [planning decision pending]

hardy_buck

kippy wrote: »

Im not convinced at all.
I'm suggesting that to appease the people you want to see a rail network ahead of this project that a proper feasibilty study could be done to determine if it is needed.
At the same time the road work can continue. There are those that genuinely want to hold up this project and prioritise a set of rail links forgetting that there's a least a decade of stagnation ahead if that is to happen.

I can see where you're coming from. I myself am of the belief that this road is essential to breaking the deadlock that cripples the 2 or 3 arteries into and out of Galway and without it, the city will be setback immeasurably.

Iwannahurl

kippy wrote: »

There were no doubt major issues and mistakes made with planning. I don't think anyone denies that. That however is in the past and is not something that can be reversed - or do you suggest that it can be reversed? Perhaps move some of the factories and major buildings in Parkmore/Ballybrit across to the west side, or maybe move families from the westside to the east side?
Or perhaps set up a monorail for tourists wishing to traverse the city into connemara?

Galway City and County Councils have literally cemented many of their mistakes into place permanently. However, the transport problems are not insurmountable, and they do not necessarily require major new road infrastructure, as the school-holiday-related reduction in traffic makes abundantly clear. When the traffic flows freely during the school holidays, it's not because of relocations of people or workplaces etc, and it's certainly not because a bypass has miraculously materialised overnight.

kippy wrote: »

We live in the present, we have to adapt for the future, whatever has happened in the past has happened. The reality is there is a requirement for another crossing for the Corrib and if this can be combined with a better link between east and west galway and all that entails, go for it.

The future will not be motorised. Claiming the desire for another crossing is a "reality" is to beggar the question. Even ARUP admit that. Though it may just be for the optics, their stated position is that the Integrated Transport Management Programme component could in theory negate the alleged need for an expressway. Of course the sole content of their brief is to build a road, so it remains to be seen whether the ITMP is a serious proposal or just window-dressing and box-ticking.

kippy wrote: »

It's not an either or option, this road can be built and further options for busses/trains/bikes can also be looked at. There seem to be a lot of people who don't appreciate this.

You can be sure it's either/or. There is no way central government is going to stump up €500 million for an expressway and another couple of hundred million for public transport, ITMP, walking, cycling etc. Once an expressway is built, as sure as night follows day all official urgency (assuming there is any) regarding the development of transport alternatives will evaporate. It's analogous to NIMBYism: politicians, groups and individuals shouting from the roof-tops when the rainbow routes were proposed have now gone silent. Their concern was purely about how their house, street or neighbourhood would be affected. Now that the proposd road affects someone else, they have gone silent, because their objections were never based on principle, only on expediency.

Iwannahurl

Middle Man wrote: »

Indeed - many Irish people continue the tradition of being behind Europe in terms of transport ideologies - latest EU thinking seems to accept the need for cars while at the same time, stressing the avoidance of over dependance - in other words, the right tool for the right job - just as I've been screaming on the thread.

Can you point to any source of such thinking at EU policy level?

hardy_buck

Iwannahurl wrote: »

The future will not be motorised.

Then for the West and South of Ireland, with spread out settlements and low population density, what will it be?

lucernarian

Schadenfreudia wrote: »

No, a clarification, you appeared to be confused.

Now that is a little rich, when you say "I do; and I specifically qualified what I meant. You contention was that the luas lines were built before the M50, which is rubbish.".
You are unable to correctly quote what I wrote (I said "completed", not "built") and then you stand by the comments as though the little matter of the southeastern motorway was irrelevant. As wikipedia says, "The completed M50 motorway was formally opened on 30 June 2005." The Luas to Sandyford was open the year before this. And importantly, it would have been open a few years earlier if it wasn't for Mammy O'Rourke's general incompetence at the non-road-building parts of her cabinet brief - and indeed what myopic TDs wanted before an upcoming general election.

There are QBCs around for a while without dual carriageways needed. The James Joyce bridge routing of buses towards Blanchardstown offered significant improvement on that QBC. The Swords QBC north of Drumcondra works fairly well and would be excellent with traffic light prioritisation and the removal of the Cat and Cage bottleneck. Indeed, that's an example of a measure that could not have possibly needed the construction of a western orbital motorway.

As a Dubliner I'll get no direct benefit from the project - but it's that type of attitude, ironically, has public transport where it is in Ireland. As a taxpayer and a motorist who seems 80% of car and road related taxation devoted to other areas I find it very difficult to get to concerned that the Galway bypass might spend a few extra % of my taxation on roads. (Though I seriously begrudge the €200 million of that total caused by a ludicrous re-direction of the road in favour of a few acres of unexceptional bog).

If you begrudge such a squandering of public money, I think it's morally imperative that you and anyone who feels similarly would oppose the new price tag. Frankly, you could make the same statement if you were from 24 other counties of the state, unless you had business or family links west of Galway city. There are lots of road schemes that need to be progressed, the obvious and clear one for sustainable regional development and people's safety: the M20 from Cork to Limerick.

The proposed road would serve as both a bypass and an outer ring. You seem to have difficulty grasping that?

Aside from choosing some obnoxious wording, you're playing at semantics here. The "ring" identified here will serve a couple of national secondaries along with regional roads. Only a small proportion of traffic making east-west journeys is not going somewhere within the confines of the city. It's much more a bypass than a ring road if I keep up the pedantic theme, but it can be both or either for all I care: It doesn't justify a €500 million price tag for the travelling benefit of a tiny minority of this country's population. There are practically no national strategic benefits for this scheme, even fewer than the Western Rail Corridor:eek:

Our current motorway/bypass system was largely built in the past 15 years; that 25 to 30 years behind the rest of Western Europe.

I would have seen significant construction of our interurban highways dating from 20 years ago, but in the past few years we have completed interurban highways and bypasses that link cities of size far smaller than comparable European ones, at a comparable standard of construction. Once upon a time we were 30 years behind Europe but that time has certainly passed.

You'll be relieved to hear that, far from being buried in gravel, Carrickmines is a thriving area; it wonderful quality of life made possible by the M50 and the luas line.

Are you seriously suggesting you're unaware of the Norman fort in Carrickmines and the legal dispute setting construction back by about 2 years? The fort in question was eventually buried in gravel before Carrickmines junction was built on top.

lucernarian

Middle Man wrote: »

A non tolled PPP like Gort to Tuam - this road is to get as many cars out of Galway as possible. The economic benefit from the Bypass should outweigh the cost of PPP payments over a 30 year concession period.

€500 million?! Would be nice to have some concrete numerical evidence of the benefits this road will bring.. Especially compared to other needed road projects. Heck, I wonder if Galwegians were told "Right, we'll all give every man, woman and child living within 10 km of Eyre Square €5000 if you don't complain about the bypass for the next 50 years", would they take the money or take the proposed bypass:(

There should have been a proposal to build a basic S2 road linking the N59 to the N6 with grade-separated junctions at the N59 and N84 and N6, and of course avoiding the bog and limestone pavement areas and whatnot. It's obviously sub-optimal but if it solves congestion for regional traffic not entering Galway and makes the city and areas along the Quincentennial and Seamus Quirke Road safer, then so be it. €500 million? No thanks.

Schadenfreudia

lucernarian wrote: »

(I said "completed", not "built")

Is there a difference? Explain it to me! If they add a floor to Liberty Hall next year will we say it was "completed" in 2016?

On that "reasoning" probably no road in the country is yet "completed"!

And importantly, it would have been open a few years earlier if it wasn't for Mammy O'Rourke's general incompetence at the non-road-building parts of her cabinet brief - and indeed what myopic TDs wanted before an upcoming general election.

That may be "important" but it is irrelevant to your contention that the M50 was built after the Luas.

There are QBCs around for a while without dual carriageways needed. The James Joyce bridge routing of buses towards Blanchardstown offered significant improvement on that QBC. The Swords QBC north of Drumcondra works fairly well and would be excellent with traffic light prioritisation and the removal of the Cat and Cage bottleneck. Indeed, that's an example of a measure that could not have possibly needed the construction of a western orbital motorway.

Would be, could be, might have been :rolleyes:
As I said, the only effective QCBs are on DCs.

There are lots of road schemes that need to be progressed, the obvious and clear one for sustainable regional development and people's safety: the M20 from Cork to Limerick.

I would quibble with the total infrastructure spend rather than obsessing about a single badly needed project.

Aside from choosing some obnoxious wording, you're playing at semantics here.

Pot...kettle....

There are practically no national strategic benefits for this scheme, even fewer than the Western Rail Corridor:eek:

Complete nonsense.

Once upon a time we were 30 years behind Europe but that time has certainly passed.

Semantics anyone?

Are you seriously suggesting you're unaware of the Norman fort in Carrickmines and the legal dispute setting construction back by about 2 years? The fort in question was eventually buried in gravel before Carrickmines junction was built on top.

I'm seriously suggesting that saying "Carrickmines was buried in gravel" is completely wrong on several levels.

I could even describe it as an obnoxious characterisation of the construction of the badly needed and hugely effective M50/"Southern Motorway".

This conversation is now terminated, at least on my side.

I wonder how long this bypass thread lasts until it goes the way of the other one i.e. Locked for an eternity again

lucernarian

Schadenfreudia wrote: »

Is there a difference? Explain it to me! If they add a floor to Liberty Hall next year will we say it was "completed" in 2016?

On that "reasoning" probably no road in the country is yet "completed"!

That's plain-as-day wrong. We're talking about the M50 and if commentary about the Eastern Bypass is left out, it was always clear what was envisaged would be a motorway connecting to the N11. Rail connecting Dublin with Belfast directly was no more complete without the Drogheda Viaduct than the M50 was when it was opened from the M1 to Dundrum.

That may be "important" but it is irrelevant to your contention that the M50 was built after the Luas.

True.

Would be, could be, might have been :rolleyes:
As I said, the only effective QCBs are on DCs.

Unprovable and probably wrong, there are mainly or completely DC-free QBCs that are effective such as most of the route from Swords to the city centre and also the Navan Road QBC.

I would quibble with the total infrastructure spend rather than obsessing about a single badly needed project.

. This isn't pocket change - There is no project that Galway "needs" that should cost such an amount of money. No sticking of heads in the sand will change that this is a colossal amount of money for a single project of such minute national benefit.

Complete nonsense.

Then prove it. Show me what are these other national interests that would benefit by having a DC, tunnelled in places and at the cost of dozens of homes and hundreds of millions of the country's money... Do you have some sort of CBA done for the new scheme at the proposed cost? As for the WRC part, it's just my opinion but that did link two regional cities in an area falling behind in economic development, while the GCOB does nothing of the sort.

I'm seriously suggesting that saying "Carrickmines was buried in gravel" is completely wrong on several levels.

I could even describe it as an obnoxious characterisation of the construction of the badly needed and hugely effective M50/"Southern Motorway".

This conversation is now terminated, at least on my side.

I can say most of Carrickmines fort if that helps, but I stand by the point. The motorway and the junction there was held up for two years in the courts before proceding, during which time the Luas to Sandyford was constructed and opened. Having that project unopened until 2005 rightly in no way interfered with the construction and opening of Luas and if cheaper public transport requirements are needed for Galway, and with an obviously finite budget, they should commence as soon as possible rather than a scheme of this grandiose expense. Whatever about the old scheme's cost, €500 million is a disgraceful sum of money to contemplate spending.

mikom

Forget the concrete.
You could build a bypass with the amount of multiquotes in this thread.....

kippy

lucernarian wrote: »

That's plain-as-day wrong. We're talking about the M50 and if commentary about the Eastern Bypass is left out, it was always clear what was envisaged would be a motorway connecting to the N11. Rail connecting Dublin with Belfast directly was no more complete without the Drogheda Viaduct than the M50 was when it was opened from the M1 to Dundrum.


True.

Unprovable and probably wrong, there are mainly or completely DC-free QBCs that are effective such as most of the route from Swords to the city centre and also the Navan Road QBC.

. This isn't pocket change - There is no project that Galway "needs" that should cost such an amount of money. No sticking of heads in the sand will change that this is a colossal amount of money for a single project of such minute national benefit.

Then prove it. Show me what are these other national interests that would benefit by having a DC, tunnelled in places and at the cost of dozens of homes and hundreds of millions of the country's money... Do you have some sort of CBA done for the new scheme at the proposed cost? As for the WRC part, it's just my opinion but that did link two regional cities in an area falling behind in economic development, while the GCOB does nothing of the sort.




I can say most of Carrickmines fort if that helps, but I stand by the point. The motorway and the junction there was held up for two years in the courts before proceding, during which time the Luas to Sandyford was constructed and opened. Having that project unopened until 2005 rightly in no way interfered with the construction and opening of Luas and if cheaper public transport requirements are needed for Galway, and with an obviously finite budget, they should commence as soon as possible rather than a scheme of this grandiose expense. Whatever about the old scheme's cost, €500 million is a disgraceful sum of money to contemplate spending.

Why is it a disgraceful sum of money to spend? There will be a tangible asset that will provide value over decades to many generations at the end of it.

lucernarian

kippy wrote: »

Why is it a disgraceful sum of money to spend? There will be a tangible asset that will provide value over decades to many generations at the end of it.

Let's see this "value" then. Let's see why the country should give the people of Galway a glorified and overelaborate bypass when, as just one example of infrastructural necessity, the second and largest cities of Ireland and everywhere in between will remain linked by a glorified cattle track of a road, with numerous lives lost in the past ten years. To be fair, the M20's stagnation are not reflective on the merits of a scheme in Galway but this is no ordinary scheme. This amount of money to directly benefit the lives of what, 100,000 people so they can get from A to B in their cars (there sure as hell won't be Bus Eireann services queuing to use the new bridge or any promise of improvements on existing routes) is just bonkers. Up to €5000 for every person this scheme will directly impact upon. That has to give anybody pause for thought?!

kippy

lucernarian wrote: »

Let's see this "value" then. Let's see why the country should give the people of Galway a glorified and overelaborate bypass when, as just one example of infrastructural necessity, the second and largest cities of Ireland and everywhere in between will remain linked by a glorified cattle track of a road, with numerous lives lost in the past ten years. To be fair, the M20's stagnation are not reflective on the merits of a scheme in Galway but this is no ordinary scheme. This amount of money to directly benefit the lives of what, 100,000 people so they can get from A to B in their cars (there sure as hell won't be Bus Eireann services queuing to use the new bridge or any promise of improvements on existing routes) is just bonkers. Up to €5000 for every person this scheme will directly impact upon. That has to give anybody pause for thought?!

I agree. Cork Limerick is far more important in the whole scheme of things but Cork Limerick isnt within an asses roar of getting started in the next decade and this could be.
You use the term 5 grand per person this will directly effect but this will benefit generations of people, ease access for all people that use it, including tourists and business.
As with any project of its type there will be spin off employment in direct construction and a large portion of the figure will end up at the exchequer anyway through taxes etc.
Id also add that there are thousands in this city paying their share of taxes etc that would be more than happy see some of it go into a badly needed infrastructural project in the city.

Aard

Deleted User wrote: »

I wonder how long this bypass thread lasts until it goes the way of the other one i.e. Locked for an eternity again

Constructive posts only please. No backseat modding.

Cheers

-mod.

Dr_Bill

One thing is certain while the Galway city outer bypass is debated to death with the can kicked down the road nothing is getting built.

No improvement is being made and no benefit is realised. I have a feeling people are looking for some kind of utopia when it comes to the city bypass, some compromise has to be met, but when the money is invested it should be done with an eye to the long term future and benefit of Galway and not get lost in the political debate that it has turned into.

Houses might have to be knocked down, tunnels might have to be dug (at large increases in construction costs) but we had better get it right and take the hard decisions.

veryangryman

I guess that Galways problem (well main one anyway) is that unlike...

Limerick
Cork
Waterford
Kilkenny
Dublin

which have got bypasses long ago, it is not on the way to any major city or port and it does not have a major sea or airport nearby that a bypass would assist with access to.

So the "national interest" debate is well, debatable!

kippy

veryangryman wrote: »

I guess that Galways problem (well main one anyway) is that unlike...

Limerick
Cork
Waterford
Kilkenny
Dublin

which have got bypasses long ago, it is not on the way to any major city or port and it does not have a major sea or airport nearby that a bypass would assist with access to.

So the "national interest" debate is well, debatable!

That's probably true if that's how you gauge "the national interest"

veryangryman

kippy wrote: »

That's probably true if that's how you gauge "the national interest"

For me, national interest is about something that assists beyond local interests.

Dublin is the capital (plus has ports, airports and major towns and cities to north and south)
Cork has major port and airport
Limerick has major airport nearby and is in between 2 cities
Waterford - in between big city (Cork) and our nearest port to London. Plus its airport (small reason in this case)
Kilkenny - in between Dub and Waterford.

Then you have Galway. Don't get me wrong, i personally would love the bypass to get to west of it in a hurry, but for majority, Galway City is the start or end point of a journey. You dont need to get beyond it if on a long trip (usually). While i am 100% behind this road, i can see why it has come last in the pecking order of city N road bypasses.

kippy

veryangryman wrote: »

For me, national interest is about something that assists beyond local interests.

Dublin is the capital (plus has ports, airports and major towns and cities to north and south)
Cork has major port and airport
Limerick has major airport nearby and is in between 2 cities
Waterford - in between big city (Cork) and our nearest port to London. Plus its airport (small reason in this case)
Kilkenny - in between Dub and Waterford.

Then you have Galway. Don't get me wrong, i personally would love the bypass to get to west of it in a hurry, but for majority, Galway City is the start or end point of a journey. You dont need to get beyond it if on a long trip (usually). While i am 100% behind this road, i can see why it has come last in the pecking order of city N road bypasses.

Yep - thats probably the broadest measurement of the national interest.
but as you've already stated the other cities mentioned all have their bypass at this stage and if it comes last in the pecking order, surely the last turn has now arisen?
Don't get me wrong, again I believe there are priorities that should be above this - definitely the Cork-Limerick link for one - however this one is a lot further down the tracks from a planning perspective and as someone has said already it needs to start happening to at least give the city some options.

Sam Russell

The Dublin bypass has a toll, in fact three. The Limerick tunnel has a toll. The Waterford bypass has a toll.

Maybe if it was tolled, it might work.

Iwannahurl

Sam Russell wrote: »

The Dublin bypass has a toll, in fact three. The Limerick tunnel has a toll. The Waterford bypass has a toll.

Maybe if it was tolled, it might work.

What does "work" mean, though? Waterford is tolled -- has it made any appreciable difference to the volume of traffic in the city?

Dr_Bill wrote: »

Houses might have to be knocked down, tunnels might have to be dug (at large increases in construction costs) but we had better get it right and take the hard decisions.

In the Irish context building an expressway for car commuters is not a hard decision. It's the easy, populist option. Prioritising public transport and an "Integrated Traffic Management Programme" is a harder sell, because it requires a major shift in thinking at both corporate and community level.

Of course the easiest decision of all is to do nothing at all, which is a distinct possibility in this situation.

veryangryman wrote: »

So the "national interest" debate is well, debatable!

The proposed expressway is of local strategic importance to various vested interests, but I hear there is reason to doubt that it's regarded as nationally important. 'Twas a former politician told me so, based on direct communications with the DoT, but of course that is pure anecdote. There is at least one senior official in City Hall who believes the "bypass" won't be built in his lifetime.

Sam Russell

Work means self funding. Some of the tolls I mentioned are subsidised because the traffic never reached the expected flow.

Travelling from Dublin to Limerick, the road becomes empty after the toll. In fact most of the motorways have very little traffic on them as you get more than 50 miles away from Dublin. A quality dual carriageway would have done for most of them, without motorway restrictions.

Surely sorting out the traffic in Galway could be achieved for a lot less money than the proposed €500m bypass.

kippy

Iwannahurl wrote: »

What does "work" mean, though? Waterford is tolled -- has it made any appreciable difference to the volume of traffic in the city?




In the Irish context building an expressway for car commuters is not a hard decision. It's the easy, populist option. Prioritising public transport and an "Integrated Traffic Management Programme" is a harder sell, because it requires a major shift in thinking at both corporate and community level.

Of course the easiest decision of all is to do nothing at all, which is a distinct possibility in this situation.

Major shifts in thinking don't happen in short periods of time - the city cannot wait for a major shift in thinking to take place.
It would be interesting to see what an "integrated traffic management programme" would come up with and how viable the implemention of it would be.

Iwannahurl

Sam Russell wrote: »

Work means self funding. Some of the tolls I mentioned are subsidised because the traffic never reached the expected flow.

Travelling from Dublin to Limerick, the road becomes empty after the toll. In fact most of the motorways have very little traffic on them as you get more than 50 miles away from Dublin. A quality dual carriageway would have done for most of them, without motorway restrictions.

Surely sorting out the traffic in Galway could be achieved for a lot less money than the proposed €500m bypass.

"Work" ought to mean much more than that, eg it should include contributing to major policy objectives such as sustainable transport, GHG emissions, health outcomes and so on. That, as well as sorting out the traffic, could be achieved for €500 or less, I reckon.

kippy wrote: »

Major shifts in thinking don't happen in short periods of time - the city cannot wait for a major shift in thinking to take place.

It would be interesting to see what an "integrated traffic management programme" would come up with and how viable the implemention of it would be.

That's a self-defeating approach to the issue. If we decide that a major shift in thinking can only happen in the indeterminate future then nothing will change. The time to start is now. Once an expressway is built for car commuters there will be no incentive to change for at least another two decades. The absence of a "bypass" at least has the merit of forcing us to seriously consider alternatives.

kippy

Iwannahurl wrote: »

"Work" ought to mean much more than that, eg it should include contributing to major policy objectives such as sustainable transport, GHG emissions, health outcomes and so on. That, as well as sorting out the traffic, could be achieved for €500 or less, I reckon.

Someone up above, perhaps yourself, said that cars were on the way out as a means of transport and building infrastructure for them was a waste of money (or insinuated that)

I suppose there is no real reason that car like devices running on electricity or some other sustainable fuel may eventually be in the future - these too also require "roads" to travel on. The same for the more sustainable busses and indeed bikes. There is no reason this road wont be sustainable into the longer term.
As for GHG emissions, I suspect there are far more GHG emissions from cars in traffice for long periods of time as opposed to cars moving for short periods of time and again this road can assist with more sustainable transport.

Zzippy

Dr_Bill wrote: »

One thing is certain while the Galway city outer bypass is debated to death with the can kicked down the road nothing is getting built.

No improvement is being made and no benefit is realised. I have a feeling people are looking for some kind of utopia when it comes to the city bypass, some compromise has to be met, but when the money is invested it should be done with an eye to the long term future and benefit of Galway and not get lost in the political debate that it has turned into.

Houses might have to be knocked down, tunnels might have to be dug (at large increases in construction costs) but we had better get it right and take the hard decisions.

It may be getting debated to death on here but it seems to be proceeding at a steady rate in the real world - route selection done, design and planning next, then CPO, and construction presumably on the agenda. Seems to me the hard decisions are being taken (whether right or wrong), you seem to be of the impression that some debate somewhere is holding the whole process up? I really don't think the roads forum on boards has that much influence...

monument

Zzippy wrote: »

It may be getting debated to death on here but it seems to be proceeding at a steady rate in the real world - route selection done, design and planning next, then CPO, and construction presumably on the agenda. Seems to me the hard decisions are being taken (whether right or wrong), you seem to be of the impression that some debate somewhere is holding the whole process up? I really don't think the roads forum on boards has that much influence...

I think you'll find that the project is also been debated in the Real World (TM) -- on the ground, at meetings, in local media etc.

Schadenfreudia

Sam Russell wrote: »

The Dublin bypass has a toll, in fact three.

Three??!

Sam Russell

Schadenfreudia wrote: »

Three??!

The East Link, the West Link, and the Port Tunnel. One, two, three. All would count as part of a bypass. Travel from the N4 junction towards the pigeon house, and you would pass all three at significant cost.

Go the other way and it is free, but not as quick.

Schadenfreudia

Iwannahurl wrote: »

What does "work" mean, though? Waterford is tolled -- has it made any appreciable difference to the volume of traffic in the city?

It has made a huge difference to anyone bypassing Waterford on the N25; which is the primary function of a bypass. So it works.

In the Irish context building an expressway for car commuters is not a hard decision. It's the easy, populist option.

Translation - "its common sense and what most people in this democracy support but I think they are all wrong".

Characterising a multi-purpose Galway bypass as "an expressway for car commuters" tells us the primary motivation for opposing the bypass is not concerns over wasting money or about public transport but simply an anti-car mentality.

Reality check: whether electric, diesel, petrol or wind-powered - cars are here to stay.

The important thing about the Galway bypass is it be "future-proofed" with that reality clearly acknowledged - and that it isn't further downgraded to throw a sop to ideologues.