M6 - Galway City Ring Road [planning decision pending]

monument

Schadenfreudia wrote: »

Translation - "its common sense and what most people in this democracy support but I think they are all wrong".

Most people used to think the earth was flat, smoking was good for you and that the last property crash was not going to happen.

The joy of democracy is that you don't have to follow most people all the time.

Schadenfreudia wrote: »

Characterising a multi-purpose Galway bypass as "an expressway for car commuters" tells us the primary motivation for opposing the bypass is not concerns over wasting money or about public transport but simply an anti-car mentality.

It's a bypass mainly being designed for commuting by car... Is that not a fact at this stage?

Schadenfreudia wrote: »

Reality check: whether electric, diesel, petrol or wind-powered - cars are here to stay. .

Cars are here to stay is one thing. But Galway's over dependence on car use can and should be challenged.

Schadenfreudia wrote: »

The important thing about the Galway bypass is it be "future-proofed" with that reality clearly acknowledged - and that it isn't further downgraded to throw a sop to ideologues.

Or maybe it's time to start learning from the mistakes of the M50 and other roads -- build it and they will come and clog it up.

kippy

monument wrote: »

Most people used to think the earth was flat, smoking was good for you and that the last property crash was not going to happen.

The joy of democracy is that you don't have to follow most people all the time.



It's a bypass mainly being designed for commuting by car... Is that not a fact at this stage?



Cars are here to stay is one thing. But Galway's over dependence on car use can and should be challenged.



Or maybe it's time to start learning from the mistakes of the M50 and other roads -- build it and they will come and clog it up.

I dont think anyone is suggesting that this is the answer to Galways woes. It's part of the solution and again I dont think anyone is saying it is an either OR option. The road can be used by sustainable transport if and when that becomes closer to reality.
The "joy" of democracy is that you generally do have to follow "most" people all of the time, as most people generally have the "vote". You can listen to others and their opinions and change your own if there is evidence to allow for that.

One can only imagine what travelling in and around Dublin today would be like WITHOUT the M50. Or indeed the major motorway schemes of the past two decades.
I can remember what it was like before and I'd suggest most people would be of the opinion that things have improved significantly and if those roads hadn't gone in place when they did things would have been immeasurably worse now.
Indeed the motorways have allowed for fast bus journeys between Dublin and Galway at very reasonable rates - something that never would have happened without the motorway itself. The M50 has allowed for fast access to Dublin airport from most of the country without going through the city etc
There's not many cities in this country that aren't reliant on car use.

Sam Russell

kippy wrote: »

One can only imagine what travelling in and around Dublin today would be like WITHOUT the M50. Or indeed the major motorway schemes of the past two decades.
I can remember what it was like before and I'd suggest most people would be of the opinion that things have improved significantly and if those roads hadn't gone in place when they did things would have been immeasurably worse now.
Indeed the motorways have allowed for fast bus journeys between Dublin and Galway at very reasonable rates - something that never would have happened without the motorway itself. The M50 has allowed for fast access to Dublin airport from most of the country without going through the city etc
There's not many cities in this country that aren't reliant on car use.

I can remember travelling from Dublin to Limerick before any motorways and it was quite reasonable - wide road adequate for the traffic that was on them at the time. The first attempt at a Limerick bypass was a disaster - it was single carriageway and went from roundabout to roundabout, and petered out.

However that could not be said about the road from Dublin to Galway which was systematically improve year on year from the early 80s to the recent times. Each year the road improved as another stretch was dealt with. Finally when it was all done, they started on the M4 and the M6. So all these improved N roads were bypassed. A total waste as the M6 is empty any time I travel on it.

I think the Galway outer bypass is too expensive and will cause further traffic problems within a decade. The previous attempts at traffic management in Galway have been ill thought out and have been a disaster. Now we have more of the same.

Zzippy

monument wrote: »

I think you'll find that the project is also been debated in the Real World (TM) -- on the ground, at meetings, in local media etc.

Yes, but it doesn't seem to be delaying the project, which is what the poster suggested. IMO it will take legal action to interrupt the schedule that has been laid out, as the consultants/NRA/LA's don't seem to be paying much heed to the "debate" that's taking place (case in point: the lip service they have paid to a public transport option, despite the many representations received and media coverage).

monument

kippy wrote: »

I dont think anyone is suggesting that this is the answer to Galways woes. It's part of the solution and again I dont think anyone is saying it is an either OR option. The road can be used by sustainable transport if and when that becomes closer to reality.

I'm saying it's an "either OR option" -- Galway is just not getting a major commuter bypass and a major public transport option. It's just not going to happen.

kippy wrote: »

The "joy" of democracy is that you generally do have to follow "most" people all of the time, as most people generally have the "vote". You can listen to others and their opinions and change your own if there is evidence to allow for that.

I think you're confusing democracy with something else -- you don't have to follow the crowd. There are people who did this in our recent now clear groupthink mass hysteria and buy property at crazy prices.

Now, I'm clearly not saying those people were able to change what others were doing -- but they did not need to follow the crowd.

kippy wrote: »

One can only imagine what travelling in and around Dublin today would be like WITHOUT the M50. Or indeed the major motorway schemes of the past two decades.
I can remember what it was like before and I'd suggest most people would be of the opinion that things have improved significantly and if those roads hadn't gone in place when they did things would have been immeasurably worse now.

The road network overall inside the M50 has been operating close to capacity at peak times for at least the last 15 years or more. Only shorty after the M50 upgrades the road is already suffering from capacity issues again, and the road network around it is also suffering from or close to suffering from capacity issues. New roads like the Galway bypass or the M50 expansion as a solution to congestion is like eating more Mars bars as a solution to obesity.

Traffic management is needed on the M50 to allow it to function as a bypass. At the moment it is suffering from very heavy and, in the mid to long run, unsustainable commuter use. There's no room to expand it.

kippy wrote: »

Indeed the motorways have allowed for fast bus journeys between Dublin and Galway at very reasonable rates - something that never would have happened without the motorway itself. The M50 has allowed for fast access to Dublin airport from most of the country without going through the city etc

I'm not sure what intercity / cross country travel has to do with a bypass designed mainly for commuters.

kippy wrote: »

There's not many cities in this country that aren't reliant on car use.

It being the status quo isn't a good reason to continue something.

lucernarian

Schadenfreudia wrote: »

Characterising a multi-purpose Galway bypass as "an expressway for car commuters" tells us the primary motivation for opposing the bypass is not concerns over wasting money or about public transport but simply an anti-car mentality.

Please don't speak for me there! That's an ill-informed comment and its plain to see that this level of engineering is to cater for capacity reasons more than safety or environmental reasons. A bypass built solely to take hgvs and non-Galway City traffc does not need a dual carriageway if what I've read of the expected road usage is correct. Of course you've already "excused yourself from this conversation" as though you won't deign to be challenged on the comments you've made to me.

The important thing about the Galway bypass...

Is its damnable cost for the benefit it offers to a city and environs which, if we are honest, is a small fish in a big pond in this country. The city council and the NRA are playing fast and loose with the taxpayer's money and without even a cost-benefit analysis for the latest proposals.

kippy

lucernarian wrote: »

Please don't speak for me there! That's an ill-informed comment and its plain to see that this level of engineering is to cater for capacity reasons more than safety or environmental reasons. A bypass built solely to take hgvs and non-Galway City traffc does not need a dual carriageway if what I've read of the expected road usage is correct. Of course you've already "excused yourself from this conversation" as though you won't deign to be challenged on the comments you've made to me.



Is its damnable cost for the benefit it offers to a city and environs which, if we are honest, is a small fish in a big pond in this country. The city council and the NRA are playing fast and loose with the taxpayer's money and without even a cost-benefit analysis for the latest proposals.

so lets just leave things as they are or wait another decade or two until other proposals are on the table and ready for implementation.

Schadenfreudia

monument wrote: »

Or maybe it's time to start learning from the mistakes of the M50 and other roads -- build it and they will come and clog it up.

You think building the M50 was a mistake?! Now that's up there with thinking the Earth is flat.

It is a vital and well functioning bypass/orbital route of the type that every city in the developed world has. Actually most of them have much more extensive motorway networks.

(Though I know the anti-car folk like to pretend that all those nice European cities with excellent metro/tram/light rail systems try to ignore the fact that these are all enabled by the local version of the M50 - usually a much more extensive M-way system)

What we are missing is the public transport infrastructure to compliment it.

As I keep explaining - this is not an either road or public transport issue. We need both.

And to facilitate that Galway desperately needs the bypass/distributor/suburban commuter road - whatever way you wish to describe it.

Schadenfreudia

kippy wrote: »

I dont think anyone is suggesting that this is the answer to Galways woes. It's part of the solution and again I dont think anyone is saying it is an either OR option. The road can be used by sustainable transport if and when that becomes closer to reality.
The "joy" of democracy is that you generally do have to follow "most" people all of the time, as most people generally have the "vote". You can listen to others and their opinions and change your own if there is evidence to allow for that.

Spot on. The people who claim to believe scrapping the bypass will somehow help public transport in Galway seem to have serious problems with the concept that this is not public v private transport or road v rail.

It is this type of limited understanding that has plagued the development of good transport systems in the cities of the Republic.

Mind you, my own belief is that the "arguments" are often a thinly disguised anti-car ideology - phrases such as "burying Carrickmines in gravel" or claiming the M50 was a "mistake" are examples of the mask slipping. IMHO.

Schadenfreudia

lucernarian wrote: »

That's an ill-informed comment and its plain to see that this level of engineering is to cater for capacity reasons more than safety or environmental reasons. A bypass built solely to take hgvs and non-Galway City traffc does not need a dual carriageway

I have repeatedly made clear that in my view this is not a "A bypass built solely to take hgvs and non-Galway City traffic" and I'd appreciate it if you stopped implying I did.

I have now posted, several times, that the the road, as planned, would serve multiple functions - making it all the more important for that reason.

monument

Schadenfreudia wrote: »

You think building the M50 was a mistake?! Now that's up there with thinking the Earth is flat.

It is a vital and well functioning bypass/orbital route of the type that every city in the developed world has. Actually most of them have much more extensive motorway networks.

(Though I know the anti-car folk like to pretend that all those nice European cities with excellent metro/tram/light rail systems try to ignore the fact that these are all enabled by the local version of the M50 - usually a much more extensive M-way system)

What we are missing is the public transport infrastructure to compliment it.

As I keep explaining - this is not an either road or public transport issue. We need both.

And to facilitate that Galway desperately needs the bypass/distributor/suburban commuter road - whatever way you wish to describe it.

Maybe you should read all of my post? M50 not a mistake, but how it has been designed and managed is.

No, every city does not have a orbital bypass, only some do. Most have more extensive motorway networks but only because they have reasons for such network -- west of Galway has no reasoning for such.

And, yes, it is either a major road or a major public transport project, because Galway is not getting the funding for both. You're in dreamland if you think it is.

Schadenfreudia wrote: »

Spot on. The people who claim to believe scrapping the bypass will somehow help public transport in Galway seem to have serious problems with the concept that this is not public v private transport or road v rail.

So, if the commuter bypass was somehow scrapped, do you think that would:

(A) Increase the chance of a Luas solution

(B) Decrease the chance of a Luas solution

Schadenfreudia wrote: »

Mind you, my own belief is that the "arguments" are often a thinly disguised anti-car ideology - phrases such as "burying Carrickmines in gravel" or claiming the M50 was a "mistake" are examples of the mask slipping. IMHO.

Mask slips = you half reading things / lumping different arguments from different people togather / etc

Schadenfreudia wrote: »

I have repeatedly made clear that in my view this is not a "A bypass built solely to take hgvs and non-Galway City traffic" and I'd appreciate it if you stopped implying I did.

I have now posted, several times, that the the road, as planned, would serve multiple functions - making it all the more important for that reason.

The problem is that it's a "bypass" mainly being designed for relatively short distance commuter traffic which could largely be served by a Luas solution and some upgrades of key junctions along the current non-city-centre east-west route.

kippy

monument wrote: »

Maybe you should read all of my post? M50 not a mistake, but how it has been designed and managed is.

No, every city does not have a orbital bypass, only some do. Most have more extensive motorway networks but only because they have reasons for such network -- west of Galway has no reasoning for such.

And, yes, it is either a major road or a major public transport project, because Galway is not getting the funding for both. You're in dreamland if you think it is.



So, if the commuter bypass was somehow scrapped, do you think that would:

(A) Increase the chance of a Luas solution

(B) Decrease the chance of a Luas solution




Mask slips = you half reading things / lumping different arguments from different people togather / etc



The problem is that it's a "bypass" mainly being designed for relatively short distance commuter traffic which could largely be served by a Luas solution and some upgrades of key junctions along the current non-city-centre east-west route.

Do you think there is any chance of a luas type solution getting completed any time in the next decade if this bypass is scrapped?

veryangryman

Sam Russell wrote: »

the M6 is empty any time I travel on it.

Whoa there Nelly. The M6 is pretty far from empty. Possible exception from say Kinnegad to Tyrrelspass, but the rest of it is pretty packed on any given day.

The fact that the traffic keeps moving is a big plus, but that doesn't make it "empty" or anything close to that. Best road in the country IMO

monument

kippy wrote: »

Do you think there is any chance of a luas type solution getting completed any time in the next decade if this bypass is scrapped?

Yes, Luas and junction upgrades.

Sam Russell

veryangryman wrote: »

Whoa there Nelly. The M6 is pretty far from empty. Possible exception from say Kinnegad to Tyrrelspass, but the rest of it is pretty packed on any given day.

The fact that the traffic keeps moving is a big plus, but that doesn't make it "empty" or anything close to that. Best road in the country IMO

If that is true then why is the Ballinasloe toll not meeting its traffic volume?

Iwannahurl

Schadenfreudia wrote: »

1. It has made a huge difference to anyone bypassing Waterford on the N25; which is the primary function of a bypass. So it works.

2. Translation - "its common sense and what most people in this democracy support but I think they are all wrong".

3. Characterising a multi-purpose Galway bypass as "an expressway for car commuters" tells us the primary motivation for opposing the bypass is not concerns over wasting money or about public transport but simply an anti-car mentality.

4. Reality check: whether electric, diesel, petrol or wind-powered - cars are here to stay.

5. The important thing about the Galway bypass is it be "future-proofed" with that reality clearly acknowledged - and that it isn't further downgraded to throw a sop to ideologues.

1. The Waterford bypass hasn't taken traffic out of the city. In fact the modal share for cars increased post-bypass, giving the lie to claims that bypasses lead to modal switch in this country. In any case, the N6 Galway City Transport Project engineers have said that only 5% of traffic would be bypassing the city entirely -- that's not a "huge difference" by anyone's definition.

2. In Galway "common sense" and "most people" means a ridiculous level of car dependence for a small city (>70%), hundreds if not thousands of children being driven less than a couple of km to school every day, motorists driving up on footpaths as children walk to school, large numbers of motorists driving at double the speed limit on 50 km/h urban roads and considering that slow going, etc. They all think they're right, and that nothing abnormal is going on. It's called car dependence or perhaps car addiction, and may even have a neurological basis.

3. The "anti-car mentality" jibe is the same lazy generalisation that repeatedly crops up in many debates on transport policy. It's also a form of denial, a well-known feature of dependence syndromes (see above). If you had read the local press, listened to the local media and attended the local consultation sessions, you would know that the term "expressway" was used originally by Arup's Associate Director, who is managing the N6 Galway City Transport Project. Arup has specifically said that the primary purpose of the proposed road is to move car commuters in the west of the city at high speed towards those areas east of the city where "ten thousand jobs" are located. Likewise, their sole brief is to plan such a road. They were not originally tasked with developing public transport solutions. That was tacked on later, and the ITMP component is now the responsibility of the City Council, the same body that has failed miserably for 30 years to control rising levels of car use and car dependence. Apparently the Council is now engaged in the task of collating all the various transport reports it commissioned, and failed to implement, over the last twenty years or so. Farcical.

4. Reality check: http://www.diplomatie.gouv.fr/en/french-foreign-policy-1/climate-7436/2015-paris-climate-conference/#sommaire_2 Reality Check: http://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/ireland/dublin-traffic-plan-proposes-banning-cars-from-key-city-streets-681440.html Reality check: http://nmotion2015.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/FullBusCars.png

5. "Predict and provide" transport planning is 1960s/1970s thinking, and it's what gifted us our ludicrous car dependence.

Iwannahurl

kippy wrote: »

The road can be used by sustainable transport if and when that becomes closer to reality.

Pie in the sky.

Schadenfreudia wrote: »

The people who claim to believe scrapping the bypass will somehow help public transport in Galway seem to have serious problems with the concept that this is not public v private transport or road v rail.

Mind you, my own belief is that the "arguments" are often a thinly disguised anti-car ideology.

If an expressway is built for car commuters, most of them travelling 12-15 km across the city, where will the bus passengers come from?

I've asked this before on more than one occasion, and I still haven't got an answer.

The "anti-car ideology" jibe is just lazy debating, imo.

veryangryman

Sam Russell wrote: »

If that is true then why is the Ballinasloe toll not meeting its traffic volume?

I must assume that there isn't as many people going the full whack distance to Galway. For a better bang-for-buck measurement, check the Loughrea-Galway or Athlone-Ballinasloe numbers. Added to the fact that anyone on the Kilreekil to Aughrim stretch wont double back so dodges the toll (a la most from Kilcock to Kinnegad on M4).

Even with subsidising the toll route, it is good for the country that access to Galway and the west is improved. I'd happily have my taxes going to that than driving that death trap from Aughrim to Kilreekil. It also has intangible benefits through increased jobs, tourism and all that revenue generating jazz.

hardy_buck

hardy_buck wrote: »

Then for the West and South of Ireland, with spread out settlements and low population density, what will it be?

You never responded to this IWH..

kippy

Iwannahurl wrote: »

Pie in the sky.




If an expressway is built for car commuters, most of them travelling 12-15 km across the city, where will the bus passengers come from?

I've asked this before on more than one occasion, and I still haven't got an answer.

The "anti-car ideology" jibe is just lazy debating, imo.

Pie in the sky? Why?

What exactly do you class as sustainable transport?

Iwannahurl

hardy_buck wrote: »

hardy_buck wrote: »

Then for the West and South of Ireland, with spread out settlements and low population density, what will it be?[/QUOTE

You never responded to this IWH..

Make your bed, then lie in it, perhaps?

hardy_buck

Iwannahurl wrote: »

Make your bed, then lie in it, perhaps?

So 'F*ck em' basically? Wow, this isloated, localist based thinking has never caused any issues in the past has it..

Iwannahurl

kippy wrote: »

Pie in the sky? Why?

What exactly do you class as sustainable transport?

The key phrase was "if and when".

kippy wrote: »

The road can be used by sustainable transport if and when that becomes closer to reality.

Let's not kid ourselves here. Claims being made about a post-bypass public transport nirvana are pie in the sky.

There is no way that sufficient funding will be made available for the provision of a city-wide public transport service once car commuters get their expressway.

There are a number of reasons for this. Firstly, given the fact that the Government is still borrowing hugely to pay for the day-to-day costs of running the State, it seems extremely unlikely that it will have the funds available to stump up €500 million for an expressway and another couple of hundred million(?) for sustainable transport.

Secondly, a €500 million cross-town expressway for car commuters immediately undermines the business case for sustainable transport solutions costing potentially more hundreds of millions, because the people who should be using public transport to cross town will feel even less like leaving their cars at home than they do now. Anyone who believes that car commuters want an expressway so that they can take the bus has a very naive view of human nature (or of Galway commuters anyway ).

Thirdly, the ITMP component is being handled by Galway City Council and the road by Arup. Arup's legacy includes the Sydney Opera House. What has Galway City Council given the world? Tribal roundabouts. They should switch: give Arup a public transport brief and a €500 million potential price tag, then let Galway City Council plan a road with no budget mentioned.

Finally, there is the political imperative. At the moment "sustainable transport" is part of the sales pitch for the expressway. Once the expressway is built, who'll be trying to sell what to whom? The car commuters whizzing across town will no longer be interested, in the same way that the NIMBY factions affected by the original rainbow routes are no longer heard. It's not their problem any more, and their concerns were not based on principle but on their personal interests. Public transport requires sustained interest to make it happen, whereas private transport insulates us from such considerations.

Iwannahurl

hardy_buck wrote: »

So 'F*ck em' basically? Wow, this isloated, localist based thinking has never caused any issues in the past has it..

What was the thinking that lead to development like this all around County Galway and the hinterland of the city?

What was the thinking that led to residential areas west of Galway City being separated from employment areas east of the city?

Carawaystick

monument wrote: »

Or maybe it's time to start learning from the mistakes of the M50 and other roads -- build it and they will come and clog it up.

Where will the traffic come from to clogg up a new dual carriageway? Is the Limerick Bypass CLogged up?

There's a million people in DUblin to clogg up a D3M. Can't see the traffic to clogg up a D2 in Galway.

kippy

Iwannahurl wrote: »

The key phrase was "if and when".



Let's not kid ourselves here. Claims being made about a post-bypass public transport nirvana are pie in the sky.

There is no way that sufficient funding will be made available for the provision of a city-wide public transport service once car commuters get their expressway.

There are a number of reasons for this. Firstly, given the fact that the Government is still borrowing hugely to pay for the day-to-day costs of running the State, it seems extremely unlikely that it will have the funds available to stump up €500 million for an expressway and another couple of hundred million(?) for sustainable transport.

Secondly, a €500 million cross-town expressway for car commuters immediately undermines the business case for sustainable transport solutions costing potentially more hundreds of millions, because the people who should be using public transport to cross town will feel even less like leaving their cars at home than they do now. Anyone who believes that car commuters want an expressway so that they can take the bus has a very naive view of human nature (or of Galway commuters anyway ).

Thirdly, the ITMP component is being handled by Galway City Council and the road by Arup. Arup's legacy includes the Sydney Opera House. What has Galway City Council given the world? Tribal roundabouts. They should switch: give Arup a public transport brief and a €500 million potential price tag, then let Galway City Council plan a road with no budget mentioned.

Finally, there is the political imperative. At the moment "sustainable transport" is part of the sales pitch for the expressway. Once the expressway is built, who'll be trying to sell what to whom? The car commuters whizzing across town will no longer be interested, in the same way that the NIMBY factions affected by the original rainbow routes are no longer heard. It's not their problem any more, and their concerns were not based on principle but on their personal interests. Public transport requires sustained interest to make it happen, whereas private transport insulates us from such considerations.

So basicilly you are saying that this piece of infrastructure wont be used by public transport despite clear evidence to suggest that the building of motorways and bypasses in this country have led to an increased demand for private bus services. The operation of which becomes much more cost efficient and viable for those operating and using it once proper infrastructure is built?
But of course that doesn't fit in with those who are completely against any type of real and tangible progress in this city.
Again, you're not going to fix the mistakes already made (in relation to town planning) so I don't see how you are suddenly going to setup the city so that it fits in with a light rail proposal that works for the population.

kippy

Iwannahurl wrote: »

What was the thinking that lead to development like this all around County Galway and the hinterland of the city?

What was the thinking that led to residential areas west of Galway City being separated from employment areas east of the city?

Look, this has been addressed already, there is no doubt there are major issues with the way the town has developed, issues that don't particularly fit into an efficient map for modes of light rail to work on, that's not going to change.
You have to plan for what is currently there and what you can see happening into the future.
If light rail really is the answer to Galways woes, I'd like to see how it'd work.

hardy_buck

Iwannahurl wrote: »

What was the thinking that lead to development like this all around County Galway and the hinterland of the city?

What was the thinking that led to residential areas west of Galway City being separated from employment areas east of the city?

It was poor development, no one is suggesting otherwise, but to forget about the 180,000 or so people living in these kind of developments (not to mention those relatively nearby in Clare and Mayo) because of decisions made years ago is only going to make the situation many times worse.

In your first example there, how are these people meant to get to work in Ballybrit can I ask? I have a hunch it's through the city

Iwannahurl

kippy wrote: »

So basicilly you are saying that this piece of infrastructure wont be used by public transport despite clear evidence to suggest that the building of motorways and bypasses in this country have led to an increased demand for private bus services. The operation of which becomes much more cost efficient and viable for those operating and using it once proper infrastructure is built?

But of course that doesn't fit in with those who are completely against any type of real and tangible progress in this city.

Again, you're not going to fix the mistakes already made (in relation to town planning) so I don't see how you are suddenly going to setup the city so that it fits in with a light rail proposal that works for the population.

Do you mean inter-city private bus services? If so, hardly a valid comparison I would suggest.

If an expressway for cross-town car commuters is built in Galway, what would prompt them to switch to (private) buses? Furthermore, who will provide bus services in the 'inner' city, and who will use them? I would have thought that the best business case for public transport is a large and reliable supply of commuters. By way of analogy, if you want people to use your ferry why would you build a bridge for them?

The "anti-progress" jibes are on a par with the "anti-motorist" ones.

I'm not advocating light rail specifically, although I am swayed by arguments that light rail is operating successfully in at least forty European cities/towns of a size similar to Galway.

kippy wrote: »

Look, this has been addressed already, there is no doubt there are major issues with the way the town has developed, issues that don't particularly fit into an efficient map for modes of light rail to work on, that's not going to change.
You have to plan for what is currently there and what you can see happening into the future.
If light rail really is the answer to Galways woes, I'd like to see how it'd work.

It has indeed been addressed already. What you are describing is "predict and provide" transport planning, which is a failed model from the 60s and 70s. It's what led us to our current level of car dependence. Why? Because it was decided long ago that private car transport was the future. All major planning decisions were made on that basis. Unfortunately the car-oriented transport planning led to car-oriented land use planning, and a vicious circle developed.

It makes no sense to me to "plan for what is currently there". You decide where you want to be in future and plan accordingly. Galway City Council et al can't seem to think of anything in future other than cars, cars and more private cars. That was their thinking thirty years ago and there is little evidence that it has changed since. Arup are just working to their brief, which did not even hint at the idea of public transport never mind explicitly require it.

hardy_buck wrote: »

It was poor development, no one is suggesting otherwise, but to forget about the 180,000 or so people living in these kind of developments (not to mention those relatively nearby in Clare and Mayo) because of decisions made years ago is only going to make the situation many times worse.

In your first example there, how are these people meant to get to work in Ballybrit can I ask? I have a hunch it's through the city

That kind of development went ahead without the kind of road infrastructure being proposed. In other words, people moved out of the city to their boreen-based haciendas already knowing what the traffic would be like. Is such development going to reduce or stop altogether once the expressway is built? The answer is obvious.

The first example you mention is in Moycullen, off the N59. It's major "one-off" territory. Driving in this road to enter or cross the city is no bother when the schools are off, afaik.

lucernarian

Schadenfreudia wrote: »

I have repeatedly made clear that in my view this is not a "A bypass built solely to take hgvs and non-Galway City traffic" and I'd appreciate it if you stopped implying I did.

I have now posted, several times, that the the road, as planned, would serve multiple functions - making it all the more important for that reason.

I never said or implied it was your view. Your repeated misquoting and taking things out of context is only obfuscating the discussion. I'm saying that if the bypass was merely designed as a way to keep inappropriate traffic out of Galway city, i.e. trucks, tractors, non-citybound traffic and as a targeted way to remove the worst environmental impacts of the Seamus Quirke Road and QCB on local areas.... you could build a much lower-spec road for perhaps substantially less money.

What I am implying is that this road project as currently designed is to cater for car use and commuters in particular. That was what I said in the post that you replied to there but you are choosing a different interpretation, god knows why. You are sticking your head in the sand if you're claiming otherwise. It is NOT just "simply an anti-car mentality" to state a damn fact. It has many "benefits" for the tiny proportion of this country who will actually benefit. Ultimately the benefits accrued are dwarfed by the €500 million figure. Pay for a parallel runway at one of the busier airports in Europe (Dublin), or pay for a bypass/ring road/call-it-what-you-want-it-doesn't-matter around a town by European standards (Galway).