M6 - Galway City Ring Road [planning decision pending]

Iwannahurl

kippy wrote: »

Neither analogy is close to what we are talking about here for numerous reasons.

The primary function of the "whatever you want to call it" is to provide for a route for traffic to bypass the city itself from east to west. Who or what this route is used for is a moot point really as it will take pressure off other routes within the city and perhaps open up areas to improvements for cyclists/buses/peds etc because less traffic is in or around the city.

There are a number of categories of people that will use the road or parts of it.

If you want to come up with something to disencentivise car use, you are first going to have to give a viable alternative to car use or there is no way, from a political standpoint it will ever gain widespread adoption.

Regardless of the analogy, the reality is that people will change their behaviour if they are economically incentivised to do so. If water is not metered people will waste it. If there wasn't a €1 deposit on shopping trolleys fewer people would return them. And so on.

There is nothing moot about the question of who will use the expressway if one is built. In fact that question is the absolute core of the debate. What pressure will it take off? People talk about the expressway removing cars, which is true, but it will also remove their drivers, ie people who should or could be travelling by other means, such as by public transport. Drivers switching to an expressway are commuters who could switch to public transport (and cycling etc).

If you build an expressway then you have immediately undermined any viable alternative. I keep asking this question and it is not being answered, presumably because it's really rhetorical: are we really expected to believe that car commuters want an expressway so that they can switch to public transport once it's built?

There is no way, from either a political or practical standpoint, that car commuters will suddenly find public transport more attractive once they're given the opportunity to drive across the city in seven minutes (reportedly) on a 100 km/h expressway. Therefore any developments in terms of alternative transport options must of necessity come first.

Iwannahurl

Schadenfreudia wrote: »

A bypass is a bypass; not a substitute for city centre public transport. It can, of course, as the Galway bypass will, help matters.

Carry on.

Or should I say - carry on.

According to Arup an outer bypass would not be a solution, and Arup's proposed expressway is not an outer bypass.

Arup have no plans to develop public transport solutions, because their brief didn't mention anything of the sort. That's a right carry on, Irish-style.

Schadenfreudia

Iwannahurl wrote: »

According to Arup an outer bypass would not be a solution, and Arup's proposed expressway is not an outer bypass.

Arup have no plans to develop public transport solutions, because their brief didn't mention anything of the sort. That's a right carry on, Irish-style.

You really have problems with the concept of a bypass

You must get out more if you think the bypass is an Irish invention!

Iwannahurl

kippy wrote: »

And again, at no point do I rule out making those changes that you speak of over time to assist those that want to cycle/walk and feel it suits their lifestyle.

The weather is a red herring, and just one of a litany of excuses.

Facilitating people's "lifestyle" choices in relation to cars is not a valid reason to plan and construct a €500 million expressway.

kippy

Iwannahurl wrote: »

Regardless of the analogy, the reality is that people will change their behaviour if they are economically incentivised to do so. If water is not metered people will waste it. If there wasn't a €1 deposit on shopping trolleys fewer people would return them. And so on.

There is nothing moot about the question of who will use the expressway if one is built. In fact that question is the absolute core of the debate. What pressure will it take off? People talk about the expressway removing cars, which is true, but it will also remove their drivers, ie people who should or could be travelling by other means, such as by public transport. Drivers switching to an expressway are commuters who could switch to public transport (and cycling etc).

If you build an expressway then you have immediately undermined any viable alternative. I keep asking this question and it is not being answered, presumably because it's really rhetorical: are we really expected to believe that car commuters want an expressway so that they can switch to public transport once it's built?

There is no way, from either a political or practical standpoint, that car commuters will suddenly find public transport more attractive once they're given the opportunity to drive across the city in seven minutes (reportedly) on a 100 km/h expressway. Therefore any developments in terms of alternative transport options must of necessity come first.

Again I will ask, what is the viable alternative to the expressway that you are so sure will be better than it from a transport perspective - bearing in mind that the primary aim of the expressway is to assist people in getting from the east of the city to the west of the city and vice versa.

Forget about fanciful notions that you've posted already. There isn't enough viability in any of that to do what this road is proposing to do.

If you clear the roads around the city of other traffic and this road takes X amount of traffic you'll probably find you've more space for bus/bike and pedestrain friendly options for route IN AND OUT of the city as opposed to around it. Routes that are currently very busy/at a standstill at times.

Iwannahurl

Schadenfreudia wrote: »

You really have problems with the concept of a bypass

You must get out more if you think the bypass is an Irish invention!

You referred to an "outer bypass":

Schadenfreudia wrote: »

Yes, but this thread is about "the Galway Outer Bypass" which is also "real on paper"!

Maybe you should open a new thread to talk about imaginary public transport?

That is now defunct in the present context.

kippy

Iwannahurl wrote: »

The weather is a red herring, and just one of a litany of excuses.

Facilitating people's "lifestyle" choices in relation to cars is not a valid reason to plan and construct a €500 million expressway.

The weather is NOT a red herring.
You've presented "research" form a very biased standpoint. Research that does not allow for - what happens when it is raining heavily, very windy, icy? How do you get your kids to school then and any other variety of variables not accounted for.

Schadenfreudia

Iwannahurl wrote: »

You referred to an "outer bypass":



That is now defunct in the present context.

So, the thread is defunct? (I wasn't the one who named it)

But I thought you seemed to have forgotten what the title implies we are discussing. I was merely reminding you :cool:

Iwannahurl

kippy wrote: »

Again I will ask, what is the viable alternative to the expressway that you are so sure will be better than it from a transport perspective - bearing in mind that the primary aim of the expressway is to assist people in getting from the east of the city to the west of the city and vice versa.

Forget about fanciful notions that you've posted already. There isn't enough viability in any of that to do what this road is proposing to do.

If you clear the roads around the city of other traffic and this road takes X amount of traffic you'll probably find you've more space for bus/bike and pedestrain friendly options for route IN AND OUT of the city as opposed to around it. Routes that are currently very busy/at a standstill at times.

The primary aim of the proposed expressway is to facilitate the east-west movement of private cars.

There is nothing fanciful about developing public transport, as at least two studies conducted at public expense have made clear.

What's really fanciful is the notions that thousands of car commuters will suddenly become interested in public transport once the road they have been dreaming of becomes a reality.

Can someone please describe that expected metamorphosis step by step?

Iwannahurl

kippy wrote: »

The weather is NOT a red herring.
You've presented "research" form a very biased standpoint. Research that does not allow for - what happens when it is raining heavily, very windy, icy? How do you get your kids to school then and any other variety of variables not accounted for.

Perhaps you can address the weather specifics in the appropriate thread. The Met Eireann data speak for themselves, unless you're claiming that there are factual inaccuracies in my account (if so, show where they are, in the relevant thread of course).

kippy

Iwannahurl wrote: »

The primary aim of the proposed expressway is to facilitate the east-west movement of private cars.

There is nothing fanciful about developing public transport, as at least two studies conducted at public expense have made clear.

What's really fanciful is the notions that thousands of car commuters will suddenly become interested in public transport once the road they have been dreaming of becomes a reality.

Can someone please describe that expected metamorphosis step by step?

As I said, the primary aim is to assist people in getting from one side of the city to the other. I've yet to see the alternative.

What's fanciful is the thoughts of those that believe that you can fit a square peg into a round hole - I've no issues with developing public transport as I have already stated countless times, but there is a need for this road, the sooner the better.

As I have stated, in a rather easy to read piece of text:
"If you clear the roads around the city of other traffic and this road takes X amount of traffic you'll probably find you've more space for bus/bike and pedestrain friendly options for route IN AND OUT of the city as opposed to around it. Routes that are currently very busy/at a standstill at times."

kippy

Iwannahurl wrote: »

Perhaps you can address the weather specifics in the appropriate thread. The Met Eireann data speak for themselves, unless you're claiming that there are factual inaccuracies in my account (if so, show where they are, in the relevant thread of course).

What happens on the days when it is raining or windy or icy - what do you do?

Iwannahurl

kippy wrote: »

As I said, the primary aim is to assist people in getting from one side of the city to the other. I've yet to see the alternative.

What's fanciful is the thoughts of those that believe that you can fit a square peg into a round hole.

As I have stated, in a rather easy to read piece of text:
"If you clear the roads around the city of other traffic and this road takes X amount of traffic you'll probably find you've more space for bus/bike and pedestrain friendly options for route IN AND OUT of the city as opposed to around it. Routes that are currently very busy/at a standstill at times."

No, the function of the bypass is to facilitate the movement of vehicles.

You haven't seen any proposals regarding the movement of people, eg public transport, because no such proposals have been produced. The consultants' brief didn't even mention it, which is why the City Council is now trying to play catch-up (and without a €500 million price tag of course).

Schadenfreudia

Iwannahurl wrote: »

the function of the bypass is to facilitate the movement of vehicles.

Finally! You make an accurate statement...and, guess what, vehicles don't (yet) move themselves...

kippy

Iwannahurl wrote: »

No, the function of the bypass is to facilitate the movement of vehicles.

You haven't seen any proposals regarding the movement of people, eg public transport, because no such proposals have been produced. The consultants' brief didn't even mention it, which is why the City Council is now trying to play catch-up (and without a €500 million price tag of course).

And again I ask you, what do you suggest be done to improve the movement of people from the east side to the west side of the city for whatever reason?
I am not asking you to do a feasibility study/go out to tenders and build it etc.......
Just throw up your idea.

And for the record, a fair bit of public transport is vehicular.

Iwannahurl

kippy wrote: »

What happens on the days when it is raining or windy or icy - what do you do?

See here: http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=90532385&postcount=399

Rain is rarely a problem, ice even more rare. There's wind from time to time, but nothing extreme (extreme events being, by definition, rare occurrences).

We have done the 3 km morning school run well over 90% of the time since September 2014. There were more morning car trips than last year, but much of that was laziness on my part, ie the trips were elective, not strictly necessary.

kippy wrote: »

And again I ask you, what do you suggest be done to improve the movement of people from the east side to the west side of the city for whatever reason?
I am not asking you to do a feasibility study/go out to tenders and build it etc.......
Just throw up your idea.

And for the record, a fair bit of public transport is vehicular.

I would have thought all public transport was vehicular. The crucial difference, however, is that public transport is much more efficient than private cars.

I've already listed a number of measures that could be implemented. It's not enough for you just to dismiss them as unworkable. If you think they are mistaken, then say why and show how.

Iwannahurl

Schadenfreudia wrote: »

Finally! You make an accurate statement...and, guess what, vehicles don't (yet) move themselves...

Are you claiming I was inaccurate elsewhere? Quote/link please.

Nothing new about my saying that the purpose of the expressway is to facilitate the movement of vehicles rather than people. It's the core problem with the proposal: ie a focus on the mobility of private cars rather than on the transport of passengers.

kippy

Iwannahurl wrote: »

See here: http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=90532385&postcount=399

Rain is rarely a problem, ice even more rare. There's wind from time to time, but nothing extreme (extreme events being, by definition, rare occurrences).

We have done the 3 km morning school run well over 90% of the time since September 2014. There were more morning car trips than last year, but much of that was laziness on my part, ie the trips were elective, not strictly necessary.




I would have thought all public transport was vehicular. The crucial difference, however, is that public transport is vastly more efficient than private cars.

I've already listed a number of measures that could be implemented. It's not enough for you just to dismiss them as unworkable. If you think they are mistaken, then say why and show how.

Sorry, I was trying to be sarcastic with the comment in relation to public transport being vehicular.
None of the measures specificilly assist PEOPLE getting from one end of the City to the other. For example, what do those measures do to get people from Bearna to the M6 for example. Or from Parkmore/Ballybrit to Knocknacarra/Moycullen/Oughterard etc? Or from Oranmore to Salthill?

As far as the rain statistics read, I look at this:
http://www.yr.no/place/Ireland/Connacht/Galway/statistics.html
Over a 30 year period and see the average amount of days for rain in each month of the school year is generally over 15 days.
I think about it and go, OK, lets sell the car and use the bike year round.
What happens if 5/7 school days a month it's raining - too windy - to cold/icy or there is some other reason one cannot use a bike. What happens then?

Schadenfreudia

Iwannahurl wrote: »

Nothing new about my saying that the purpose of the expressway is to facilitate the movement of vehicles rather than people. It's the core problem with the proposal: ie a focus on the mobility of private cars rather than on the transport of passengers.

You seem to imagine that cars go around empty! And that buses and trucks don't exist.

Iwannahurl

kippy wrote: »

1. None of the measures specificilly assist PEOPLE getting from one end of the City to the other. For example, what do those measures do to get people from Bearna to the M6 for example. Or from Parkmore/Ballybrit to Knocknacarra/Moycullen/Oughterard etc? Or from Oranmore to Salthill?

2. As far as the rain statistics read, I look at this:
http://www.yr.no/place/Ireland/Connacht/Galway/statistics.html
Over a 30 year period and see the average amount of days for rain in each month of the school year is generally over 15 days.
I think about it and go, OK, lets sell the car and use the bike year round.
What happens if 5/7 school days a month it's raining - too windy - to cold/icy or there is some other reason one cannot use a bike. What happens then?

1. Properly developed public transport services (along with major improvements in provision for walking and cycling) will serve to transport people, and will also free up road space for essential and unavoidable vehicular traffic. And parking space too, come to think of it.

2. Days are not the appropriate unit of analysis. See this thread for details: http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057085431

kippy

Iwannahurl wrote: »

1. Properly developed public transport services (along with major improvements in provision for walking and cycling) will serve to transport people, and will also free up road space for essential and unavoidable vehicular traffic.

2. Days are not the appropriate unit of analysis. See this thread for details: http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057085431

And again, you're very very light on specifics when challenged directly.

I get your study. What happens if it rains heavily four days per month on average and I've no car? I am cutting down the numbers to perhaps suit your figures, which again are done with rose tinted glasses.
(I am giving you weather based issues here, negating the fact that I'd have 2/3 kids to get to school and all other variables that may make cycling tougher to do anyway)

I'm leaving this thread at this point.

Whatever happens SOMETHING needs to be done in the near future/less than 10 years, that A, reduces drasticilly the number of vehicles on the road or B, makes it easier for the amount of vehicles on the road to get around the city better.
Naval gazing can only go on so long.

Iwannahurl

kippy wrote: »

Whatever happens SOMETHING needs to be done in the near future/less than 10 years, that A, reduces drasticilly the number of vehicles on the road or B, makes it easier for the amount of vehicles on the road to get around the city better.

I'll take A.

kippy

Iwannahurl wrote: »

I'll take A.

Surprise surprise. :)


Will have to break the bike out a bit more myself coming into the autumn!

monument

kippy wrote: »

As far as the rain statistics read, I look at this:
http://www.yr.no/place/Ireland/Connacht/Galway/statistics.html
Over a 30 year period and see the average amount of days for rain in each month of the school year is generally over 15 days.
I think about it and go, OK, lets sell the car and use the bike year round.
What happens if 5/7 school days a month it's raining - too windy - to cold/icy or there is some other reason one cannot use a bike. What happens then?

Who said you had to sell your car?

Rain is used as an excuse in Dublin where it rains about as much as Amsterdam, the Dutch and Danes cycle in freezing cold... What happens when you run out of excuses?

The main reason people don't cycle is the conditions and Galway is more and more going to have the worst conditions for cycling in Irish cities (because other cities are changing quickly and Galway is still struggling to change).

hardy_buck

Iwannahurl wrote: »

I'd like to see the idea of a congestion charge given serious study. There may be other ways of achieving the same effect, eg charging for currently free parking.

A recent study by the NTA showed that walkers, cyclists and users of public transport contributed a lot more to retail turnover in Dublin city centre than car drivers did. Another crucial point is that cars are such a waste of road space that even if walkers, cyclists and public transport users spend less, far more of them can be accommodated, which means prioritising those modes has major advantages in terms of cost-benefit ratio. Plus they don't kill people, make you fat, pollute the air, add as much to GHG emissions etc. What's not to like?

You're missing the point, retailers don't want 60% (or whatever the figure is) of the footfall they currently enjoy, they want 100%. I'm sorry for a city like Galway it's just a silly idea and I say that as a cyclist myself.

SeanW

Iwannahurl wrote: »

A congestion charge would have an immediate effect.

Yes, in discouraging people from going anywhere West of the Corrib. Also Irish law will put the brakes on any such plan, you can't have a restriction (e.g. a toll, a 3-ton limit etc.) unless there is an alternative route.

Under your plan, legitimate long distance travel through the region would be socked with a congestion charge (and other things like reduced speed limits). This is not only bonkers, but illegal.

Iwannahurl

Schadenfreudia wrote: »

You seem to imagine that cars go around empty! And that buses and trucks don't exist.

Most cars are driver only, and as such take up a grossly disproportionate amount of road space, which we are told is in short supply. Cars also get in the way of essential commercial traffic. As for my alleged imagining that buses don't exist, I strongly support public transport and I think there should be many more buses on Galway City streets.

hardy_buck wrote: »

You're missing the point, retailers don't want 60% (or whatever the figure is) of the footfall they currently enjoy, they want 100%. I'm sorry for a city like Galway it's just a silly idea and I say that as a cyclist myself.

No. You, and the car-addicted retailers of Galway, are missing the key point.

Cars are not footfall, in any sustainable sense.

Or to put it another way, trying to generate footfall by accommodating cars is the most inefficient way you can imagine doing it.

The caption for the attached graphic is in Spanish (I can't find an original version in English*) but it still makes the basic principle abundantly clear for anyone who cares to look properly:




* road corridor capacity (persons per hour in a lane 3.5 meters wide, in a city, in the same direction).

Iwannahurl

monument wrote: »

Rain is used as an excuse in Dublin where it rains about as much as Amsterdam, the Dutch and Danes cycle in freezing cold... What happens when you run out of excuses?

The question asked earlier was:

kippy wrote: »

What happens if 5/7 school days a month it's raining - too windy - to cold/icy or there is some other reason one cannot use a bike. What happens then?

Of course this prompts the real question about Galway City travel patterns: what happens on the many occasions when there is very little rain, no rain, or even, mirabile dictu, sunshine?

Why, most people keep driving of course.

And if they habitually drive when there is no rain/ice/tornado, it's easy to see that on the tiny minority of occasions when bad weather is indeed a deterrent, the concept of walking or cycling to school/work wouldn't even stir a lone synapse in whatever part of the brain governs locomotion.

Carawaystick

Iwannahurl wrote: »

As for my alleged imagining that buses don't exist, I strongly support public transport and I think there should be many more buses on Galway City streets.

But the National Transport Authority disagrees and prevented a 15 min bus service in Galway, restricting it to a 30 min service.

If the nta don't want to allow good public transport, then all talk about better busses or trams is just hot air.

Iwannahurl

Carawaystick wrote: »

But the National Transport Authority disagrees and prevented a 15 min bus service in Galway, restricting it to a 30 min service.

If the nta don't want to allow good public transport, then all talk about better busses or trams is just hot air.

I think that situation is worth investigating further.

The NTA is also providing piddling amounts of funding for sustainable transport in the city. For example, they couldn't even find the money to do a proper job on Threadneedle Road, even though it has two secondary schools on it, and is a major route to several other schools.

In contrast, nearly a million Euro was made available for electronic signs guiding motorists to the numerous city centre car parks.

I'll bet they're not discussing a potential €500 million budget for the ITMP component of the N6 Galway City Transport Project.