M6 - Galway City Ring Road [planning decision pending]

Schadenfreudia

Shurimgreat wrote: »

Er no they are not.....They remain as much a pipedream as they were 40, 30 or 20 years ago. We are still talking decades before they are the norm.

I would imagine they are not near as much a pipe-dream as the prospect of re-building entire cites to facilitate "localisation"!

It isn't happening on any scale anywhere that I know of.

monument

Schadenfreudia wrote: »

I would imagine they are not near as much a pipe-dream as the prospect of re-building entire cites to facilitate "localisation"!

It isn't happening on any scale anywhere that I know of.

It isn't happening in any cities to any scale?

Densification in housing isn't happening at any scale in any? Planning and zoning mixed use development isn't happening at scale in any city?

Or you know very few cities?

Schadenfreudia

monument wrote: »

It isn't happening in any cities to any scale?

Densification in housing isn't happening at any scale in any? Planning and zoning mixed use development isn't happening at scale in any city?

Or you know very few cities?

Densification is not the same as localisation. Localisation, like Green Cars, is being planned and worked on and unlike Green Cars, remains a pipe dream

We can't even localise employment in the State; never mind a city district!

As you appear to know a lot of cities - could you supply some stats on some localisation of scale they have achieved?

Now waffling about "plans" or "theories" required - actual results achieved will do fine.

Schadenfreudia

I'll give ye all a helping hand here...google "examples of successful localisation" and they think you are talking about branding.

Google "average commute distances" and this is the first thing crops up...

Average commuting distances: The average distance commuted to work in England and Wales increased from 13.4 km in 2001 to 15.0 km in 2011.

But shure, there aren't many cities in England and Wales compared to here - and we are far more advanced in our densification and planning and public transport infrastructure and pipe-dreams and all that stuff :rolleyes:

Shurimgreat

So are the schools on mid terms today in Galway? Lovely quiet commute this morning, was like a Sunday afternoon around the city. If only it was always like this.

monument

How exactly would you define localisation? Nothing other than people living in the same building?

spacetweek

monument wrote: »

How exactly would you define localisation? Nothing other than people living in the same building?

Localisation isn't living in an apartment block with a shop at ground level and a school down the road. It encompasses living, working and pursuing leisure activities all in your local neighbourhood. Even the food you buy in shops should be sourced locally if possible.

youngrun

Shurimgreat wrote: »

So are the schools on mid terms today in Galway? Lovely quiet commute this morning, was like a Sunday afternoon around the city. If only it was always like this.

School buses are they an answer to traffic
Ditto work buses/shuttles /park and ride
And college bike schemes...

Schadenfreudia

http://www.brookings.edu/~/media/research/files/reports/2015/03/24-job-proximity/srvy_jobsproximity.pdf

Another interesting look at "localisation" in North America here.

nordydan

spacetweek wrote: »

Localisation isn't living in an apartment block with a shop at ground level and a school down the road. It encompasses living, working and pursuing leisure activities all in your local neighbourhood. Even the food you buy in shops should be sourced locally if possible.

Indeed. Cities in the Soviet Union were planned like this. Clearly the country had a few other issues, but their general overlook was correct in this regard

diarmuid05

From what i can tell the traffic problem in the city seems to be cause by people trying to criss-cross there way to and from work.

Every time traffic has to take a right hand turn the whole junction has to stop
Ban right hand turns....
Have more flashing amber left turns - make green lights 90% of the time to suit peak flow

I bet if you think about it almost everybody could plot a route home without having to stop, more than a couple of times....

It might not be the shortest route.... but surely if it was moving 90% of the time - it'd be better than what we have....

granted there is no provision for anyone other than motorists in this solution.....

monument

I was thinking localism was living and working in the same neighborhood -- I'd see the Dublin Docklands as such a neighborhood, even if the Docklands isn't a perfect example. The in the one building comment was me going over the top for effect.

I don't think that type of neighborhood localism is a single solution but part of a mix, including people traveling sustainably around a city and into a city from commuter areas.

Schadenfreudia wrote: »

But shure, there aren't many cities in England and Wales compared to here - and we are far more advanced in our densification and planning and public transport infrastructure and pipe-dreams and all that stuff :rolleyes:

The UK -- besides limited areas -- is overall as or around about as car centric car centric as Ireland.

Margaret Thatcher had her policies around 'the great car economy' and David Cameron is reported to be filling in that legacy.

Schadenfreudia

http://www.theguardian.com/environment/2016/feb/16/masdars-zero-carbon-dream-could-become-worlds-first-green-ghost-town

Great plans here for a car-free city - on a greenfield site. Looks like it won't need a bypass either!

Schadenfreudia

monument wrote: »

The UK -- besides limited areas -- is overall as or around about as car centric car centric as Ireland.

Unlike North America??

Let's flip back to my original point; the "localisation"/re-engineering of cities so that we won't need the likes of the Galway bypass is far more a "pipe-dream" (your term, not mine) than Green Cars.

I fear this conversation is drifting away from discussing the vital need of the Galway Bypass for the prosperous development and expansion of modern Galway.

While it won't guarantee a prosperous Galway, it is a necessary prerequisite. We should be dealing with current and probable mid-term (say, the next 30 years) reality rather that green fantasies rooted in some sort of half-thought-out anti-car "philosophy".

I'm taken by the chap above who praises the Soviet Union for designing its cities along the lines being suggested here - since people got some political freedom and central planning collapsed under the weight of its own failure to improve living standards, Russia's cities are now clogged with cars and the country is trying to play catch-up building roads to accommodate the way people choose to live

Even in Moscow which already had a vast, excellent and growing PT infrastructure - massive new roads are being created to allow for the multi-modal transport options required to sustain a modern city and economy.

nordydan

nordydan wrote: »

Indeed. Cities in the Soviet Union were planned like this. Clearly the country had a few other issues, but their general overlook was correct in this regard

The Soviet planners worked on the premise that few citizens would have personal transport, so would have to be close to all the services that they required.

spacetweek

Indeed - the vast tram and underground networks to be found in all Eastern European cities aren't due to planning and civility - it's mostly because private car ownership was restricted or not allowed at all under communism. That, and living standards weren't high enough to enable people to afford them even if they were allowed.

Shurimgreat

I'm not sure how relevant this is, but Dublin is a much better designed city than Galway. They have made a much better effort at mixed use developments. There are lots of business parks in Dublin but all of them are well served by public transport particularly the Luas and also crucially all of them have substantial residential estates and apartment complexes virtually in the middle of them. I'm thinking Sandyford, Citywest, Swords, Cherrywood as examples.

I don't see anything like that in Galway. The business and industrial parks don't really have significant residential estates or apartments within walking distance, or certainly not middle class estates.

I think everyone can agree Galway is a badly designed city. You have huge residential areas like Knocknacarra with little employment in the area, and then you have huge industrial areas such as Parkmore and Ballybrit with little residential in the area.

monument

Let's talk about multi-modal transport...

Schadenfreudia wrote: »

Unlike North America??

Many US cities are at least trying harder or look like they are trying harder than Galway to have attractive multi-modal transport options.

Schadenfreudia wrote: »

Let's flip back to my original point; the "localisation"/re-engineering of cities so that we won't need the likes of the Galway bypass is far more a "pipe-dream" (your term, not mine) than Green Cars.

I fear this conversation is drifting away from discussing the vital need of the Galway Bypass for the prosperous development and expansion of modern Galway.

While it won't guarantee a prosperous Galway, it is a necessary prerequisite. We should be dealing with current and probable mid-term (say, the next 30 years) reality rather that green fantasies rooted in some sort of half-thought-out anti-car "philosophy".

The problem is that Galway has not in any meaningful way tried to have viable multi-modal transport.

Bus priority is minimal, crossing many roads outside the city centre is a reminder of what it was like 20 or 40 years ago for other cities and the cycling network is a joke.

spacetweek wrote: »

Indeed - the vast tram and underground networks to be found in all Eastern European cities aren't due to planning and civility - it's mostly because private car ownership was restricted or not allowed at all under communism. That, and living standards weren't high enough to enable people to afford them even if they were allowed.

Schadenfreudia wrote: »

I'm taken by the chap above who praises the Soviet Union for designing its cities along the lines being suggested here - since people got some political freedom and central planning collapsed under the weight of its own failure to improve living standards, Russia's cities are now clogged with cars and the country is trying to play catch-up building roads to accommodate the way people choose to live

Even in Moscow which already had a vast, excellent and growing PT infrastructure - massive new roads are being created to allow for the multi-modal transport options required to sustain a modern city and economy.

You would latch onto somebody joking about the Soviet Union, and it's telling that you think car clogged, heavily polluted cities are a good thing.

Some of the richest countries -- which have been wealthy for longer than us -- have a more balanced multi-modal transport system, sometimes with higher car ownership but lower car usage.

Schadenfreudia

monument wrote: »

Some of the richest countries -- which have been wealthy for longer than us -- have a more balanced multi-modal transport system, sometimes with higher car ownership but lower car usage.

We are starting to go around in circles but the places you refer to are tiny very crowded places like Holland; and even then they have a motorway system in and around their cities we can only dream about.

They also have tram, commuter rail/metro systems we can only dream on - but Galway is merely a medium size town in a rural area; the sort of town that gets bypasses built across the world without a second glance.

Your claim to imagine that I think traffic jams in Russia are a good thing (I don't) is pretty irrelevant. The point I'm making is that thanks to the blessings of Stalin they started out (a mere 25 years ago) with what you imagine our near-future will look like and ended looking just like all our "car-depended" developed world!

Sam Russell

Getting back on topic.

Would making Bothar Na Treabh freeflow solve a lot of the problems? Add another bridge over the Corrib and you are done. Could be done peacemeal, but a steady go at it could get it done before all the appeals and protests are over.

L1011

Sam Russell wrote: »

Getting back on topic.

Would making Bothar Na Treabh freeflow solve a lot of the problems? Add another bridge over the Corrib and you are done. Could be done peacemeal, but a steady go at it could get it done before all the appeals and protests are over.

Bridge across the Corrib is the dearest part of the project, the hardest to get permission for and the most likely to cause protests.

Existing joke 'bypass' runs within strolling distance of the city centre (1km walk to Eyre Square, far less to the actual city) and is built far too close to to make freeflow.

Zzippy

L1011 wrote: »

Bridge across the Corrib is the dearest part of the project, the hardest to get permission for and the most likely to cause protests.

I would imagine the tunnelling would be the most expensive part, while the houses being demolished is most likely to cause protests. The whole project will be treated as one planning application, so the bridge itself won't be more or less likely to get permission.

L1011

Zzippy wrote: »

I would imagine the tunnelling would be the most expensive part, while the houses being demolished is most likely to cause protests. The whole project will be treated as one planning application, so the bridge itself won't be more or less likely to get permission.

If done in segments, as suggested, it'd be hardest.

monument

Schadenfreudia wrote: »

We are starting to go around in circles but the places you refer to are tiny very crowded places like Holland; and even then they have a motorway system in and around their cities we can only dream about.

They also have tram, commuter rail/metro systems we can only dream on - but Galway is merely a medium size town in a rural area; the sort of town that gets bypasses built across the world without a second glance.

Your claim to imagine that I think traffic jams in Russia are a good thing (I don't) is pretty irrelevant. The point I'm making is that thanks to the blessings of Stalin they started out (a mere 25 years ago) with what you imagine our near-future will look like and ended looking just like all our "car-depended" developed world!

The current N6 in Galway City would be the bypass in a Dutch city where there isn't another major urban population on the other side (as is the case in Galway). Segregation of modes and sometimes flows is key.

Redesigning roundabouts into junctions as Galway has done in a way which mix everything is bad for all modes -- bad for local and bypass motor traffic, walking, cycling and buses.

And Dutch cities larger than Galway don't have tram or metro lines. The country by the way is the Netherlands, Holand is a region.

As for you keep going on about Galway being a city/town in a rural area -- that's what cities the size of Galway and larger usually are: urban areas with rural areas around them. Not sure why you think Galway is so different on that.

Sam Russell wrote: »

Getting back on topic.

Would making Bothar Na Treabh freeflow solve a lot of the problems? Add another bridge over the Corrib and you are done. Could be done peacemeal, but a steady go at it could get it done before all the appeals and protests are over.

There's lots which could be done in Galway in a peacemeal way which could be more effective for transport in Galway than the hope of a bypass. The current Quincentenary Bridge could be used.

A new pedestrian and cycling bridge could be put in near to the Quincentenary bridge and then the footpaths and cycle paths on the Quincentenary bridge could be converted to traffic or bus lanes.

As above, segregation of modes and flows -- better ways of handling junction points to suit all or more modes and flows.

L1011 wrote: »

Bridge across the Corrib is the dearest part of the project, the hardest to get permission for and the most likely to cause protests.

Existing joke 'bypass' runs within strolling distance of the city centre (1km walk to Eyre Square, far less to the actual city) and is built far too close to to make freeflow.

The design of the closest roundabout and other junctions could be much better at segregating flows and modes for a fraction of the cost of a new bypass. There are some restrictions and pinch points but overall it's not that built up around the current route -- a lot more could be done.

The problem is made worse by trying to have all routes doing all things. For example, walking and cycling traffic could be removed off the Quincentenary Bridge and with a new walking and cycling bridge, the quality of service for walking and cycling would be higher than on the current route.

Schadenfreudia

monument wrote: »

The current N6 in Galway City would be the bypass in a Dutch city where there isn't another major urban population on the other side (as is the case in Galway). Segregation of modes and sometimes flows is key.

And Dutch cities larger than Galway don't have tram or metro lines. The country by the way is the Netherlands, Holand is a region.

As for you keep going on about Galway being a city/town in a rural area -- that's what cities the size of Galway and larger usually are: urban areas with rural areas around them. Not sure why you think Galway is so different on that.

Pointless waffle...but I'm heeding the Mod here and staying on-topic.

Sam Russell

L1011 wrote: »

Bridge across the Corrib is the dearest part of the project, the hardest to get permission for and the most likely to cause protests.

Existing joke 'bypass' runs within strolling distance of the city centre (1km walk to Eyre Square, far less to the actual city) and is built far too close to to make freeflow.

Depends on the bridge.

A doubling of the Quincentenial bridge would help. A public transport only bridge would help, like the Lucy Hacket one in Dublin. A cycle/pedestrian bridge would help. And all for less than €600m - a lot less.

Making the N6 (Bothar Ne Treabh) freeflow by using underpasses, overpasses, bridges, and restricting paths - these would all help - and all for a lot less than €600m.

By restricting paths I mean that left turns allowed, but right turns go to the next junction and turn back.

Shurimgreat

Each of the feeder roads to the new bypass, eg Barna road, Headford Rd?, etc will need significant overhaul and upgrading in the areas where they feed onto the bypass. Overpasses and feeder ramps will need to be built. This in turn will mean significant disruption for a number of years during the construction phase and additional cost. I'm thinking of in particular of an overpass on the Barna Rd, unless they are planning a simple roundabound instead which if so would cause another pinchpoint. An overpass on the Barna Rd would be unsightly to say the least.

Schadenfreudia

Sam Russell wrote: »

A doubling of the Quincentenial bridge would help. A public transport only bridge would help, like the Lucy Hacket one in Dublin.

Hey - that's Rosie, not Lucy....otherwise I agree - unless you are suggesting not building the bypass?

Panthro

Build a massive looping skytrain with bus depots at its stops to take you to your destination.
And monthly unlimited commuter tickets that can be used on both skytrain and bus services.

And a buck load a money for the above!

I'm honestly speechless.

http://connachttribune.ie/major-housing-development-gets-go-ahead-despite-city-bypass-plans/

Galway Bay fm newsroom – The go-ahead has been given for a major housing development on the west side of the city, despite the fact that the site is partially within the preferred route corridor for the proposed city bypass.
Kenny Developments and Company Ltd. was initially refused permission by the City Council for 58 residential units at Clybaun Road and Mincloon Cross.
However, An Bórd Pleanála has now overturned that decision.
The plans include 32 four-bedroom semi-detached houses and 12 four-bedroom detached houses in Mincloon.
It would also include a further 2 five-bed homes, six four-bed terraced homes and six three-bed terraced homes.
City planners turned down the plans because part of the site is located inside the preferred route corridor for the proposed city bypass.
However, An Bórd Pleanala has now granted permission for the development with 15 conditions attached, despite the recommendation of its own inspector to refuse permission.
The inspector agreed with Galway City Council’s refusal of permission due to the location of the site on the preferred city bypass route.
One stipulates that a two metre-high concrete block wall be constructed on lands within the application site, along the full length of the eastern site boundary