Matercard Lola, Simtek, Forti, Pacific etc.

matty55

Do u think we'll ever see REALLY small teams like this in F1 again? The kind of teams that remind us that there was a time when a formula 1 team one could be run on little money, a lot of team work and pay drivers

zeris

Probably not. Certainly not cheaply. And where would the infrastructure come from. You can't afford to buy an existing F1 team. You could try buying what is left of Super Aguri but I think for example, their factory is now bought. Buy a team from a lower formula. The gap between GP2 and F1 would make it hard to get re-tooled and jump up a series (although I think Durango tried to secure what was the last F1 place that ending up going to Prodrive). Look to the States? The current champ cars (or whatever they are calling it this week) don't compare to the old CART days. Again, an expensive re-tool. Start from scratch? Expensive.

The reduction next year of aerodynamic widgets _may_ reduce the dependence on wind tunnels, wind tunnel scale and expensive CFD.

As the use of carbon fibre becomes more prevalent in road cars hopefully large car manufacturers can come up with methods to reduce the cost of fabrication.

You may next year be able to pick up an engine supply for €5m for the season if the FIA get their way.

You don't have to use KERS.

The whole 'customer car' may be resolved.

But you still have salaries (drivers and crew), plant, rent, bills, constantly spending money to snag sponsors and you'll never be competitive if your running on a shoestring budget.

It could be fun though to have a Lord Hesketh floating about the paddock. But to start now you would need the support of a large manufacturer to get any traction. And even then; well; just as Ford or Honda what that guarantees.

Jor

Have to agree. If Ford had to sell up a few years ago, then even if these new cost-saving measures work, it would still be nearly impossible for a small F1 team to cope.

Jordan scored (I think) 14 points in it's first year, nearly winning in Belgium and yet they were close to going broke at the end of the year. That was 1990 when car reliability was poor enough, even among many top teams. Nowadays, there is low attrition rate so the top teams hoover up most of the race points.
Look at Honda this year and last. I cannot imagine how much money has gone into that car and it is still pitiful to see it trundling around. Even the once all-conquering Williams is struggling to be competitative.
I would be surprised if Force India lasted more than another year or two. A new team coming in has almost no chance.

In the mid 80's there were two levels of race car. The top teams all had turbo cars. The smaller teams still competed for championship points but also had a separate title for their normally aspirated cars. I don't think that would be popular to-day.

vincenzolorenzo

No i don't think we'll ever see the likes of Lola, Pacific, Simtek, etc again and to be honest in many ways thats a good thing. While i would wholeheartedly agree that smaller (independent) teams are very important for F1 a lot of the teams around in the 80s and early 90s should never have been there. There's no point going racing without being fully prepared or having some kind of realistic budget. If you don't have that you end up being an obstacle on the track and don't compete at all. Mastercard Lola and Andrea Moda before them were an embarrassment and hopefully we won't see the likes of them return. But do i see a return for independent teams? In the current climate, absolutely not. But we'll see how things pan out over the next few years. These are changing times for F1......

superjosh9

well, as a long-time F1 enthusiast, it's a shame the way F1 has gone. i.e, it makes no bones about the fact that it is now just a business. The amount of money involved is so wasteful, and all to comply with silly little rules? If it was a case that you were allowed to develop the car and introduce new ideas like 6 wheels and ground effect and turbos etc., then fine, the money is somewhat vindicated because we are developing and moving on, but as it is now? Nah, there is just no point. From the first car on the grid to the last, how much difference is there *really* between them? We're talking minute detail differences in shapes of carbon fibre and engine mapping, again, what's the point in that?

Anyway, rant over. Back on topic, there is no room for the small teams because as stated, the only way they could win is by out-smarting the bigger teams with some new development - but these new developments aren't allowed. So, they're playing by these obscure rules which the big teams are throwing money at - in a brute-force manner - where the small teams are picking one way at a time - because that's all they can afford.

I'd love to see another Jordan come along. The closest is Red Bull - which is why I'm really a fan of STR. But it really is impossible.

But, the good thing about these small teams was that every now and then they'd pick up some great driver, or they'd strike a great design and would suddenly be fighting against the big guys. I miss that. Tyrrell, Alesi, Phoenix 1990 - brilliant. Minardi, Pierluigi Martini, countless races. Was always great until the engine went..

matty55

While I respect your opinions and think that they are all valid points to make I still think we need small teams. 20 cars is too few. Why did customer cars go out the window, I was so disappointed when Prodrive withdrew their entry into F1:(. Although I do agree that teams like "Life" were farsical behond belief. They didn't even pre-qualify for any race and had a terrible setup!!

superjosh9

matty55 wrote: »

While I respect your opinions and think that they are all valid points to make I still think we need small teams. 20 cars is too few. Why did customer cars go out the window, I was so disappointed when Prodrive withdrew their entry into F1:(. Although I do agree that teams like "Life" were farsical behond belief. They didn't even pre-qualify for any race and had a terrible setup!!

lets not forget the way Onyx and people like that would end up on the wrong side of the law... now THAT was racing!!!

agree 20 is too few, pre-qf wasn't mad on, and it's prob a bit tough eco wise to exclude cars from race after travelling to venue only to not qualify, but I think 26 cars should be there...

was also disappointed that Prodrive pulled out, especially when there were a few other entries in for it that might not have pulled out.

BrianD3

No we won't ever see those type of teams again and I think it's a shame. The small and tiny teams added colour and variety to the sport.

The point about reliability is a good one, in say 1989-1990, even with points only down to 6th place these teams would pick up points quite often due to unreliability of the cars ahead of them, that wouldn't happen today.

I remember Onyx had at least one podium, Rial, AGS etc. would have the odd points finish and would then fail to prequalify for the next race Dallara and Minardi were pretty good, Minardi had several points finishes, led a race and qualified once or twice on the front row. Then there were the "big" small teams like Tyrrell who had some great performances in 89-90 with Alesi driving. Then there was Jordan in 91, everyone remembers Schmacher's qualifying performance in his debut race in Belgium but what many forget is that in the race his teammate De Cesaris was heading for a 2nd place finish and catching Senna when his engine blew.

Yeah Life and Coloni Subaru were bad but the unusual engine layouts added to the variety with their flat 12 and W12 layouts in additon to the V8, V10 and V12 configurations used by other teams