Looking for advice re veggie lifestyle kids

peaches79

Hello

As per the title, I'm looking for different points of view on Veggie kids. I'm a full veggie 12 years, and no red meat 17years. Whilst I do my best to stay absolutely veggie, I do drink wine, eat cheese and other activities which I'm aware remove me from the hardcore veggie community- I suppose I'm trying to say I do my best

Anyway, I have twin boys who are now 5 months. They had a veggie gestation and obviously no meat yet. Whilst I have no issue cooking meat for hubbie (his decisions are his, mine are mine ) I'm starting to get a bit ancy about the babies.

If I'm honest, I cannot come up with a reason good enough to 'subject' them to meat. I can fulfill all their dietary requirements through a veggie diet and up to now- they are in rude good health (fingers crossed they stay that way!).

I've mentioned this to OH and don't think he was impressed- came out with the usual arguements about giving it to them and letting them make their own decision when old enough. I don't really think that's good enough, sure they can decide TO eat meat when they're old enough. If they say to me at 3 'mammy, sausage' or something along those lines I'll absolutely give it to them but I just can't understand why feeding meat has to be the 'norm'.

I have another few months before I really need to worry, but I'm the only veggie in my family or his and so think there'd be words from more than just OH.
Anyone any words of wisdom for/against?

Macha

I will be in a similar situation with my vegan boyfriend, if/when we decide to have kids together (Hi babe, if you're reading )

My take on it is when I'm cooking, I will give them what I cook. When he's cooking, he can give them what he cooks. And when they're old enough, we can both explain to them our different points of view and they can decide. Having said that, the vast majority of the meals I cook are vegetarian anyway.

I really can't see how it would work any other way without one person's beliefs being stepped on.

rockbeer

Sounds like you're doing the cooking, so if your OH makes an issue of it tell him that if he wants them to have meat he can prepare it and feed it to them himself. Same goes for anyone else who feels entitled to an opinion.

I do the cooking in my house so I get to choose what goes in the pot. Cook's privilege. I'd give short shrift to anyone who told me what I ought to be making for them.

peaches79

Really? That did cross my mind but was quickly edged out by feeling like I'd be doing them wrong IYKWIM?
I suppose you're right though, what am I supposed to do- prepare meat and look happy about giving them it when I feel like this? My sister has already looked at me like an oddball when I tried to explain how I was feeling and offered them a taste of the stew she had for her little girl

Macha

To be honest, I'm amazed that you even cook meat for him. I would never expect my OH to cook meat for me!

rockbeer

peaches79 wrote: »

Really? That did cross my mind but was quickly edged out by feeling like I'd be doing them wrong IYKWIM?(

Hey, you're preparing food for them. They owe you big time

If someone makes dinner for me the only appropriate response is "thank you".

peaches79

rockbeer wrote: »

If someone makes dinner for me the only appropriate response is "thank you".

It's true!

Yeah, I don't prepare meat often for him; he mostly gets to eat veggie (what a priviledge !). But sometimes, I'll throw fish in the oven or whatever using gloves or utensils.
I do it cos I loves him

Vegeta

How about feed one normally (joke ) and raise one vegetarian and then pair them off in challenges (both physical and mental) and see which way is best.

Only messin, raising kids is hard, two the same age must be even rougher. So just try and give them a balanced nutritional profile and keep em healthy until they can make their own decisions.

peaches79

Vegeta wrote: »

How about feed one normally (joke ) and raise one vegetarian and then pair them off in challenges (both physical and mental) and see which way is best.

Evil
We could label one 'evil' and one 'good' too? Hehe
Yeah, I'll do it my way and feck everyone else making me feel guilty

Tar.Aldarion

HIs reasoning is easily turned on the head by you saying, let them decide to eat meat if they want later on. If I was your child, raised on meat, and then decided mammy was right I would be annoyed that I had been given meat as a child. On the other hand if I had not been given meat as a child and decided it was ok to eat meat as I grew up I could just start eating it, nothing to be annoyed about. Plus, just boss your husband around ftw.

Macha

Tar.Aldarion wrote: »

If I was your child, raised on meat, and then decided mammy was right I would be annoyed that I had been given meat as a child. On the other hand if I had not been given meat as a child and decided it was ok to eat meat as I grew up I could just start eating it, nothing to be annoyed about.

You think it's a parent's obligation to predict the future dietary choices of their children and act accordingly? What if your child decides to be vegan and is disgusted at having been fed dairy products? Or decides to become Muslim and is disgusted at having been fed pork?

I don't know how that would work in reality..

Tar.Aldarion

In this case I am saying there is a vegetarian parent and a meat eating parent, this will come up in the childs life, no doubt. Not like a typical family where both are meateating and one parent does not disagree with the other ethically over food. If they are fed a vegetarian diet they will have no reason to complain if they decide to eat meat. If they are fed meat and decide that is ethically wrong then they might get annoyed.

Macha

OK I see your point but I would argue that it is also possible for the child to grow up with many things that the parents make them do that they disagree with.
I was brought up catholic and I hate the church and have huge problems with them, ethically-but I don't hold it against my parents that they raised me as a catholic. Similarly, I am quite a green hippy now, but did an incredible amount of flying when I was younger with my parents - I can't hold it against them.

I suppose my point is, if you adopt that sort of logic, it can lead to questioning other assumptions about how you're raising your child.

Tar.Aldarion

My point is that it should .:P

rockbeer

Tar.Aldarion wrote:

My point is that it should

Sure, it's positive to question your assumptions, but in the end in the real practical world you have to decide what to feed you children and how to clothe them. Whether they should travel in cars and contribute to climate change. Once you start trying to anticipate their future ethics there's no end to it.

Besides, they'll probably hate and resent whatever you did for them at some stage. But it'll pass with age.

I follow a basically vegetarian diet now, but was given meat as a child. I can honestly say it has never once occurred to me to resent my parents for feeding me meat. Lots of other things, but not that

taconnol wrote: »

I hate the church and have huge problems with them, ethically-but I don't hold it against my parents that they raised me as a catholic. Similarly, I am quite a green hippy now

You sound like my kind of person

Macha

rockbeer wrote: »

You sound like my kind of person

Wow. Normally people hate greenies - I suppose for the same reasons people get annoyed by vegetarians - they don't want to face up to reality.

Question: Would any of the vegetarians or vegans here feel that they had in some way failed as a parent if their child grew up to eat meat? I mean, if my (future potential) children grew up to be SUV-driving, frequent flying, non-recycling carbon junkies, I would feel..I suppose "disappointed" is the best word. I guess we all want to pass our values onto our kids.

peaches79

Hi All,

I suppose you can only make what you think are the right decisions for your kids and take it from there really? Someone said it would never have occured to them to resent their parents for being meateaters- same here, they did thier best- I know that.

Whatever they grow up to be- ethically, morally, professionally etc.- I may not like. I guess I'll just have to accept their choices, but as parents we get to always love them

I had to laugh, OH has insisted he'll be 'making' meat for them and giving it at wknds. Mmmm hmmmm, I do the diet choices and feeding mainly. Also, I think having made the decision, that I might be getting a little prissy about the thoughts of anyone giving them meat until they can make that decision, you know? People trying to 'sneak' them a taste etc. ? People seem to think that kind of thing is funny!!!

rockbeer

taconnol wrote: »

Wow. Normally people hate greenies

There are nowhere near enough church-hating green hippies in the world!

taconnol wrote: »

Question: Would any of the vegetarians or vegans here feel that they had in some way failed as a parent if their child grew up to eat meat? I mean, if my (future potential) children grew up to be SUV-driving, frequent flying, non-recycling carbon junkies, I would feel..I suppose "disappointed" is the best word. I guess we all want to pass our values onto our kids.

I don't have kids, but it seems to me there's a strong likelihood that if I did, they would rebel against my values whatever those values were. It's the natural order of things. I'm sure I'd want anarchist revolutionaries and get stockbrokers. Isn't that the risk you take?

It's all predicted in the prophet.

peaches79

Hello again

I was chatting about this over the wknd, and was informed in no uncertain terms that I'll be depriving the boys of essential growth nutrition and elements ONLY available in meat and from no other sources. When I tried to get detailed exact information it got too technical and I couldn't see the wood for the trees.

Now the thoughts of google-ing all this and researching, when I'm not any kind of scientist, is daunting to say the least

Is there anyone on this forum that can expand on this? What are the elements that cannot be sourced from other places and what exactly are the impacts on a child's development of these? Would it deprive them developmentally if they do not get meat at all?

rockbeer

peaches79 wrote: »

Hello again

I was chatting about this over the wknd, and was informed in no uncertain terms that I'll be depriving the boys of essential growth nutrition and elements ONLY available in meat and from no other sources. When I tried to get detailed exact information it got too technical and I couldn't see the wood for the trees.

I've got to say I think that sounds like the kind of rubbish uninformed meat eaters often spout in a pitiful and misguided attempt to scare off potential vegetarians. Without a better idea of exactly what dire warnings they were giving you it's difficult to refute their arguments, but it's pretty well established that all human dietary requirements can be met from non-animal sources so I'd love to know what mysterious missing ingredients they're talking about.

Can you give us a clue?

Tar.Aldarion

peaches79 wrote: »

Hello again

I was chatting about this over the wknd, and was informed in no uncertain terms that I'll be depriving the boys of essential growth nutrition and elements ONLY available in meat and from no other sources. When I tried to get detailed exact information it got too technical and I couldn't see the wood for the trees.

Now the thoughts of google-ing all this and researching, when I'm not any kind of scientist, is daunting to say the least

Is there anyone on this forum that can expand on this? What are the elements that cannot be sourced from other places and what exactly are the impacts on a child's development of these? Would it deprive them developmentally if they do not get meat at all?

It's bollocks, there is nothing in meat that we can not get elsewhere. Just mention that no national health/dietic association in the world agrees with them.

peaches79

That's very encouraging guys, thanks for that.
Are there any particular reading sources you could recommend?


The jist of the arguements were:
a) I ate meat as a child, therefore my body can digest the proteins. If I do not allow them this opportunity they may not be able to digest them properly ever, if they change their minds?
b) There are nutritional elements not available anywhere else- animal proteins, and something to do with the natural form of MSG? Oh and the specific Animo acids in meat? This where I started losing the thread of what was being said.
c) (This doesn't really concern me as I think it's balls anyway) Parents need to stand united on everything, you being veggie and hubby meat-eater will confuse them.

My H2B will be giving them some meat anyway when he wants to, so it's kinda moot, but being told I was really depriving them pretty much upset me,so I'd like to know if any of the points are true? I felt I was being bashed for being a veggie primary care giver.

Thanks again for any info

peaches79

Apologies, I don't think I made it very clear about the wknd chat! It wasn't directly with my hubby. We had already come to the respectful consensus that we will individually stick to our principles.

Over the wknd we were chatting to friends about this, one of whom I would have thought knew what he was talking about (sciency-dude) and he was coming out with the protein/MSG/amino acid thing. The other two arguments were from the others. I felt meat-bashed

I'm going to review all those studies so thank you for the advice, really kind of you

peaches79

Also, it looks like my post from around 6pm has disappeared/merged with another?

Tar.Aldarion

Lol, I dunno how our posts got stuck together as one! I'll try to fix that.

My Post:

That's very encouraging guys, thanks for that.
Are there any particular reading sources you could recommend?

There are many british/american/etc medical/dietic/health associations with many papers on this. They all disagree with your husband.

Vegetarianism is considered a healthy, viable diet. The American Dietetic Association and the Dietitians of Canada have found a properly-planned vegetarian diet to satisfy the nutritional needs for all stages of life, and large-scale studies have shown vegetarianism to significantly lower risks of cancer, ischaemic heart disease, and other fatal diseases.[11][12][36] Necessary nutrients, proteins, and amino acids for the body's sustenance can be found in green leafy vegetables, grains, nuts, and fortified juices or soymilk.[37]

Vegetarian diets can aid in keeping body weight under control[38][39] and substantially reduce risks of heart disease and osteoporosis.[40][41][40][41] Non-lean red meat, in particular, has been found to be directly associated with dramatically increased risk of cancers of the lung, oesophagus, liver, and colon.[14][42] Other studies have shown that there were no significant differences between vegetarians and nonvegetarians in mortality from cerebrovascular disease, stomach cancer, colorectal cancer, breast cancer, or prostate cancer.[43]

The American Dietetic Association and Dietitians of Canada have stated: "Vegetarian diets offer a number of nutritional benefits, including lower levels of saturated fat, cholesterol, and animal protein as well as higher levels of carbohydrates, fiber, magnesium, potassium, folate, and antioxidants such as vitamins C and E and phytochemicals."[36] Vegetarians tend to have lower body mass index, lower levels of cholesterol, lower blood pressure, and less incidence of heart disease, hypertension, type 2 diabetes, renal disease, osteoporosis, dementias such as Alzheimer’s Disease and other disorders.[44]

11 # ^ a b c Key, Timothy J, et al., 1999 "Mortality in vegetarians and nonvegetarians: detailed findings from a collaborative analysis of 5 prospective studies" American Journal of Clinical Nutrition, Vol. 70, No. 3, 516S-524S, September 1999 http://www.ajcn.org/cgi/content/full/70/3/516S
12# ^ a b c Key, Timothy J, et al., "Mortality in British vegetarians: review and preliminary results from EPIC-Oxford" American Journal of Clinical Nutrition, Vol. 78, No. 3, 533S-538S, September 2003 http://www.ajcn.org/cgi/content/full/78/3/533S
36^ a b American Dietetic Association and Dietitians of Canada (2003). "Position of the American Dietetic Association and Dietitians of Canada: Vegetarian diets" (PDF). Journal of the American Dietetic Association 103 (6): 748–65, http://eatright.org/ada/files/veg.pdf.


etc, these are just from wiki, there are hundreds at a quick google.

The jist of the arguements were:
a) I ate meat as a child, therefore my body can digest the proteins. If I do not allow them this opportunity they may not be able to digest them properly ever, if they change their minds?

He mustn't have ever done a biology class in his life? No offense to him of course but that's nonsense. In fact I find the argument rather funny.

b) There are nutritional elements not available anywhere else- animal proteins, and something to do with the natural form of MSG? Oh and the specific Animo acids in meat? This where I started losing the thread of what was being said.

Why is he talking about MSG? What? Anyway that is irrelevent.

As for amino acids, we can get them from many non-meat sources. There are 8 essential ones(some semi-essential ones for children too, not a problem), all of which are in soy. In other cases foods can be mixed and matched to get the necessary protein.
From my charter in a thread above:

Tar.Aldarion wrote:

Protein:Many People believe that vegetarian and particularly vegan diets cannot
possibly provide sufficient protein.This is an old wives' tale.
Eight essential amino acids are needed to make a complete protein.Dairy products,eggs and
soya products(tofu,tempeh,soya drinks and desserts)all provide complete protein in themselves.

Combining whole grains(unrefined wheat,rye,millet,barlet,spelt,rice,quinoa)
with pulses(beans,peas,lentils)and supplementing with small amounts of nuts and seeds also
provides plenty of protein.All the essential amino acids are found in combinations
such as beans on toast,lentil curry with brown rice,musli with milk,hummus made from chickpeas
and sesame tahini,peanut butter sandwiches made from wholemeal bread.It isn't even necessary
to combine different food types at the same meal

c) (This doesn't really concern me as I think it's balls anyway) Parents need to stand united on everything, you being veggie and hubby meat-eater will confuse them.

Not worth arguing against.

My H2B will be giving them some meat anyway when he wants to, so it's kinda moot, but being told I was really depriving them pretty much upset me,so I'd like to know if any of the points are true? I felt I was being bashed for being a veggie primary care giver.

Thanks again for any info

In short, he doesn't know what he is talking about. He doesn't know anything about nutrition yet accused you of depriving them just to get his way? I wouldn't be happy with that.

white apples

This book is quite good at explaining nutrients needed for children and alternative sources for them. However, the main gist of it is promoting a different method of eating than is conventional in order for your body to break down foods more efficiently. It's a very interesting and good read and includes recipes, although it's not excusively vegetarian, it is promoting vegetarianism.

peaches79

Cheers, will have a look now...

peaches79

Hi All,

Sorry to bring this post back again.
I've looked into protein combining now and come up with some ideas- any comments on the below for 7-8mnth babies?

1) Lentil, mushroom and rice bake puréed
2) Mushroom, leek, Kidney & broad bean purée - odd mix?
3) Cheesey Boiled eggs on toast (does that sound a bit manky?)

Also, can babies have soy? And do I remember hearing something bad about too much soy and baby boys?

Thanks again

taram

They all sound nice to me and pretty balanced too. I wouldn't worry too much about flavour combinations at this stage, they're v.young and a broad range of flavours and textures is all you need to go for, have seen my 2 year old cousins ask for peas mushed with pineapple and gravy, apple slices dipped in salad cream... :pac:

Not sure about soy, sorry.

peaches79

Ewww- wow that's some mix the kiddies are looking for
Thanks for the reply, appreciate it.

--amadeus--

I am in an almost identical situation but with kids of 5 & 7.

1st thing is mutual respect between you and your partner. This will involve some give and take and you may have to decide how important this issue is to you. Is it worth an argument? For me I have been a veggie since my mid teens and the idea of feeding meat to my children just was not one I was willing to consider. My line of reasoning is and was that you either are or aren't a veggie - eating veggie meals at home and a Big Mac if out with Mum wasn't an option. When the inevitable making a choice for teh child argument was made I had 2 answers. First - as you said - you are making a choice either way. Second as the parent of teh children it's your job to make decisions for them until they are old enough to do so for themselves (at which point they will die thier hair black and listen to Norwegian death metal, but I digress...)

Now in my case I had to agree to the kids going to a school that had a religious ed program and letting them do teh whole 1st communion thing. I don't like that idea but my OH felt strongly on it so we struck a deal - veggie kids who get a communion.

We also have a policy of open discussion - the kids know where meat comes from and if they ask they get to try it. It's happened a couple of times but not as often as you'd think. My father in law lives with us as well and he grumbles a bit but polite and firm usually deals with any arguments.

On nutrition I am careful to give the kids a good mixed and balanced diet and I give occasional vit supplements as well (Floradix is excellent). Iron and B12 were my big concerns so that's where teh supplement comes in, really just playing safe. And there are plenty of health benifits of a veggie diet anyway that are well proven - and thats before you consider the carcinogens in your bangers!

Both kids are normal size and weight, active (one does ballet and teh other has is doing well at karate). Both are also very bright (not just parental pride , teachers say it too! ), they have gone through all the standard health and development checks and no issues at all.

I don't regret raising them as veggies in any way shape or form - in fact I think it's a key part of who they are and has helped shape thier personalities. My eldest for example always announces at parties that he is a veggie so no sausages for him (he likes the attention!) They know they are different to other kids and revel in that difference rather than conforming, they have a "think for themselves and question" attitude that I am sure has partially been fostered by teh dinner table conversations that started with "Why does mummy have a different dinner?"

So decide if it's really important to you and - if it is - then stick to your guns. They are your children and your responsibility, no one elses.