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Discussion on setting up of Irish Atheist association

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    #32
    Tim Robbins
    Registered Users Posts: 9,000 ✭✭✭Tim Robbins


    jill_valentine wrote: »
    Humanism is not the same as atheism. Stop assuming atheists and humanists are the same. If I wanted to join a humanist organisation, I would join a humanist organisation. But that's a separate conversation.
    Ok. Let's have a look at the differences then.
    The most objective definition for humanism or something that defines it objectively would be the Amsterdam declaration which all humanist organisations including the HAI subscribe to:
    http://www.iheu.org/amsterdamdeclaration

    In summary that states:
    1. Humanism is ethical.
    2. Humanism is rational.
    3. Humanism supports democracy and human rights.
    4. Humanism insists that personal liberty must be combined with social responsibility.
    5. Humanism is a response to the widespread demand for an alternative to dogmatic religion.
    6. Humanism values artistic creativity and imagination.
    7. Humanism is a lifestance aiming at the maximum possible fulfilment through the cultivation of ethical and creative living

    So humanism is atheism / agnostism + an ethical outlook.

    Which begs the question, what's the point of the atheist club?

    Atheists with no interest in ethics but simply want to rant to each other?


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    #33
    lostexpectation
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,082 ✭✭✭lostexpectation


    oh **** off tim robbins you know that's not true, as i said humanist are desperate to impress on people that they have ethics so the form a group to say it, atheist may also have ethics but don't think they need to written down or grouped. thus the atheist association will not have such declarations.

    the humanist met with bertie and the cabinet and refuse to say what went on that's there problem.

    i aksed them about the meeting with bertie, and they didn't say much but i didn't learn that they met the whole cabinet until i saw happened across a picture on their new site, a fatal lack of communication.


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    #34
    Dades
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 25,558 Mod ✭✭✭✭Dades


    lostexpectation is taking a wee break to calm down.


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    #35
    Tim Robbins
    Registered Users Posts: 9,000 ✭✭✭Tim Robbins


    lostexpectation wrote: »
    oh **** off tim robbins you know that's not true,
    What's not true?
    If the Atheist club has an ethical outlook, then surely it has the same objective as the HAI. If not, what's its objective?
    the humanist met with bertie and the cabinet and refuse to say what went on that's there problem.
    They are not refusing. My understanding is that the process is ongoing.
    If the process is still on going why should it be detailed to the level Jonny annoymous from the internet forum wants it to be. What then? Jonny annoymous will start giving out that this that and they other were not mentioned or were mentioned. Why should people who give up their freetime go out of their way for Jonny annoymous when Jonny annoymous is too lazy and too scaby to help out constructively.

    If you really want more detailed information, pop along to their monthly meetings and ask. Or join the HAI. I know for a fact they are short on members and volunteers who'll help publish and promote information for the humanist agenda.

    The government won't meet anyone who can't even organise a submission document. The HAI document is well written and is quite clear.

    Have a read of it.

    http://irishhumanism.org/resources/HAIDialogueGov_070705.pdf

    I am wondering will the atheist's club even make it that far. And if they do, will they not just wonder why didn't they just offer to help the HAI in the first place?

    Less of the ranting and more constructive thinking I say...


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    #36
    jill_valentine
    Registered Users Posts: 7,090 ✭✭✭jill_valentine


    Lads, if you're all for the HAI then, by all means, cheerlead for the HAI. But it's a little irksome that any atheists who aren't in the HAI are apparently in dereliction of their atheist duty.

    Lostexpectation might be a barely coherant rage monkey, but he touched on something there; we might not necessarily disagree with the HAI's agenda, but we don't necessarily groove with the group or it's attitude or any one of a bazillion other considerations either. If you want to make the HAI's case, by all means do so, but there's room for that elsewhere. It just seems churlish to keep bringing them up in threads that aren't... really... about them.


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    #37
    Dades
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 25,558 Mod ✭✭✭✭Dades


    jill_valentine wrote: »
    It just seems churlish to keep bringing them up in threads that aren't... really... about them.
    A problem that could be nipped in the bud if someone could actually explain what the aims of the Irish Atheists are, and how they differ from the HAI.

    And just because lostexpectation is currently unavailable to comment, doesn't give you right to refer to him in any manner you please. So mind what you say or you'll join him.


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    #38
    studiorat
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,408 ✭✭✭studiorat


    My understanding was that the meeting was to set out an agenda for the group. The athiests that is...


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    #39
    Zillah
    Registered Users Posts: 17,371 ✭✭✭✭Zillah


    Yay, a schism! We're a religion now, right? You Orthodox HAI fools have lost your way! Only the IAA truly represents Irish Atheists.


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    #40
    studiorat
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,408 ✭✭✭studiorat


    Oh yeah. The first internet religious council, defining the nature of the 3 nothings and when Easter isn't.


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    #41
    Dave!
    Closed Accounts Posts: 27,857 ✭✭✭✭Dave!


    jill_valentine wrote: »
    a barely coherent rage monkey

    LOL :D


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    #42
    Zillah
    Registered Users Posts: 17,371 ✭✭✭✭Zillah


    The Irish Atheists Association would like to announce that the following days should not be considered religious holidays for its adherents:

    1st January
    2nd January
    3rd January...


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    #43
    Galvasean
    Registered Users Posts: 30,746 ✭✭✭✭Galvasean


    IAA > HAI

    Extremism FTW! :pac:


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    #44
    Tar.Aldarion
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,098 Mod ✭✭✭✭Tar.Aldarion


    So thi swill be tax free? And you are inviting me to head it up? Interesting.


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    #45
    Zillah
    Registered Users Posts: 17,371 ✭✭✭✭Zillah


    Tar.Aldarion wrote: »
    So thi swill be tax free? And you are inviting me to head it up? Interesting.

    Only if the picture you posted in The Nocturnal Forum is actually you, which it isn't, so no. If on the off chance it is then you can have absolutely anything you want.


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    #46
    Tar.Aldarion
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,098 Mod ✭✭✭✭Tar.Aldarion


    ^_^

    That's me in my sig. Cartoon form of course, I'm not cards or a royal flush.


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    #47
    Tim Robbins
    Registered Users Posts: 9,000 ✭✭✭Tim Robbins


    jill_valentine wrote: »
    Lads, if you're all for the HAI then, by all means, cheerlead for the HAI. But it's a little irksome that any atheists who aren't in the HAI are apparently in dereliction of their atheist duty.

    Lostexpectation might be a barely coherant rage monkey, but he touched on something there; we might not necessarily disagree with the HAI's agenda, but we don't necessarily groove with the group or it's attitude or any one of a bazillion other considerations either. If you want to make the HAI's case, by all means do so, but there's room for that elsewhere. It just seems churlish to keep bringing them up in threads that aren't... really... about them.
    How about you differentiate what another non - religious grouping aim to do that they HAI are not doing?


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    #48
    Zamboni
    Registered Users Posts: 4,305 ✭✭✭Zamboni


    Tim Robbins wrote: »
    The government won't meet anyone who can't even organise a submission document. The HAI document is well written and is quite clear.

    Have a read of it.

    http://irishhumanism.org/resources/HAIDialogueGov_070705.pdf

    That is actually a very good document. Is there somewhere I can find out more about the response from Government on this submission? Or should I just have a look at the HAI website?


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    #49
    lostexpectation
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,082 ✭✭✭lostexpectation


    as said the meeting will help decide the basics go to atheist.ie for further details.

    i still think what you said in this and other the thread is highly contradictory and i don't believe you mean it, you just want to argue, or you don't seem to realise your being offensive by parroting the status quo of questioning non-religous morailty, the whole purpose of the hai is to claim to be ethical or claim to be trying to, its goes without saying for atheist, they simply don't think the church is the fountain of morality.

    anyway im not a spokeman for the group just a regular on atheist.ie, its based there but I thought this atheist forum could contribute to it.

    the reason hai doesn't succeed is because it doesn't communicate and it thinks it should play the governments game. that fine for them but i want to be involved in something else and will never be a humanist.

    i don't think atheists assoc would meet the governement because we simple wouldn't believe that they are being treated with respect like the HAI claim they were. I think thats dishonest. It doesn't take any resources to answer simple questions. its the answers that matters not who asking them.

    all the hai are getting is getting fobbed off, the process is going nowhere, even a long time committee member of the hai asked for an atheist group to be formed, a looser more assertive one to do what they can't, what more do you want.

    this is something for people do to do their spare time they can waste if they want.


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    #50
    lostexpectation
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,082 ✭✭✭lostexpectation


    the most imporatnt place is the schools but its hard to get involved in those school unless you have young children or are particularily involved in a community, thus you try to find a more generla way of doing with another community.


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    #51
    Rev Hellfire
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,346 ✭✭✭Rev Hellfire


    lostexpectation wrote: »
    i don't think atheists assoc would meet the governement because we simple wouldn't believe that they are being treated with respect like the HAI claim they were. I think thats dishonest. It doesn't take any resources to answer simple questions. its the answers that matters not who asking them.
    That's an interesting approach to take. We want change but we're not prepared to meet the people who are responsible for implementing that change :rolleyes:
    That said it makes the claims that the HAI sold out sound a bit hollow, this sounds more and more like a middle class knitting circle.


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    #52
    studiorat
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,408 ✭✭✭studiorat


    Rev Hellfire wrote: »
    That's an interesting approach to take. We want change but we're not prepared to meet the people who are responsible for implementing that change :rolleyes:
    That said it makes the claims that the HAI sold out sound a bit hollow, this sounds more and more like a middle class knitting circle.

    The auld christians love the middle class snub don't they? What with them being the vanguard of the workers like. Play another one will ya!

    The approach would seem to be to meet the people who will be voting for the "people responsible for implementing that change". The govnt aren't going to roll out these changes unless the electorate ask for it.


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    #53
    PDN
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,686 ✭✭✭✭PDN


    studiorat wrote: »
    The auld christians love the middle class snub don't they? What with them being the vanguard of the workers like. Play another one will ya!

    Did I miss something while I was in Africa last week? Has Rev Hellfire converted from agnostic to Christianity?


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    #54
    studiorat
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,408 ✭✭✭studiorat


    touché
    Musta been the self-righteousness;)


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    #55
    PDN
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,686 ✭✭✭✭PDN


    Drat! And there I was thinking we had gained another convert. :(


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    #56
    Rev Hellfire
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,346 ✭✭✭Rev Hellfire


    studiorat wrote: »
    Musta been the self-righteousness;)
    Self-righteous? Moi?

    I've just getting into the 'Religion & Spirituality' groove...


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    #57
    Tim Robbins
    Registered Users Posts: 9,000 ✭✭✭Tim Robbins


    lostexpectation wrote: »
    the reason hai doesn't succeed is because it doesn't communicate and it thinks it should play the governments game. that fine for them but i want to be involved in something else and will never be a humanist.
    I think if you did a bit of proper research, you'd see it ain't all that simple.
    Have you ever been actively involved with any organisation / lobby group that actually changed anything?

    Some things are very very straight-forward, but incredibly difficult to enact. Gay marriage, better cycling facilities, an underground in Dublin, better sporting facilities, eradication of homelessness, better and more effective recycling facilities, proper regulation of management companies, ...

    You don't just change things by shouting. It requires public support, subtle political manoeuvring, competent volunteers, a strong organisation, skilled persuasion and communication, understanding of Irish legislation, understanding of European legislation, money, geting influential people sympathic to your cause...

    We're not all Bono. We can't all shout things at rock concerts and get immediate access to leading politicians.

    Best of luck with your club, but I shudder to think if you have major problems with the HAI, what sort of problems you'll have with each other when inevitable differences of opinions crop up amongst yourselves.


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    #58
    Tim Robbins
    Registered Users Posts: 9,000 ✭✭✭Tim Robbins


    Zamboni wrote: »
    That is actually a very good document. Is there somewhere I can find out more about the response from Government on this submission? Or should I just have a look at the HAI website?
    Here


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    #59
    Galvasean
    Registered Users Posts: 30,746 ✭✭✭✭Galvasean


    Rev Hellfire wrote: »
    Self-righteous? Moi?

    You referred to yourself as 'moi'. That is very self righteous.


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    #60
    Zamboni
    Registered Users Posts: 4,305 ✭✭✭Zamboni


    Wrong place..


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    #61
    PDN
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,686 ✭✭✭✭PDN


    Galvasean wrote: »
    You referred to yourself as 'moi'. That is very self righteous.

    More pretentious than self-righteous - unless you happen to be French, of course.


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