Discussion on setting up of Irish Atheist association

Zamboni

I was there.*
Michael Nugent was a good chair.
There were a few oddballs to be fair.
I hope the interim committee come up with a decent constitution.
Then they can have my 25 yoyo's.
I just hope its promoted throughout the country - I don't want to be a member of a group which in reality is just 30 guys from an internet forum


*but don't tell anyone :pac:

robindch

Dades wrote: »

Rather than trying (with no chance of success) to remove a very relevant question from the census, why not try and promote accurate completion?

+1.

I think a subtle, measured, step-wise approach which is sensitive to political realities is far more likely to succeed than one which has the slightest appearance of extremism.

The most successful positive non-party campaign that this country has seen was the campaign run to ban smoking in public places. I believe that AI can learn a lot from how this campaign was run, and how a single, very simple message delivered coherently and consistently can achieve an apparently unthinkable goal in a very short space of time.

Tim Robbins

lostexpectation wrote: »

c+P from the chairperson Michael Nugent

Congrads Lost Expectation. I still don't see what you hope to achieve that the HAI aren't trying to do already. Is it just a case good cop (HAI) and bad cop (AI)? I'd be surprised if you get as far as meeting the government, and if you do, I wonder how your submission would differ from the HAI's submission and what the government will be thinking is the difference.

But I wish you the best of luck.

sink

I can see the point of an organisation promoting secularism, humanism or rationalism each of which have a doctrine to promote and spread but what exactly is the point of an atheist organisation. Atheism has no doctrine to teach no principles to follow, it is a complete void a simple lack of belief. You might as well set up a society that lacks belief in leprechauns, it will have just as much a purpose to fill. It would be the equivalent of an organisation promoting theism without any religious doctrine backing it up 'there is a creator but we don't know what it wants or what you should do as a result you should just know that there is one'. What's the point?

Once a person decides they are an atheist that is the end of it there is nowhere else to go with atheism anything more and one moves towards humanism or some other philosophy. There is also nothing attractive about just being an atheist. An atheist organisation is effectively asking people to leave all the religious aspects of their lives behind and replace it with nothing for atheism on it's own provides one with nothing.

I have a sense of pride in my secular humanism and it gives me a framework to conduct my life in a meaningful way. Other people are objectivists or hedonists but no one beside perhaps nihilists are purely atheists.

Dades

lostexpectation wrote: »

i hardly say a few words written on bulletin board is extremism...

Of course the words here don't. But what is suggested is a concerted action to remove the mere mention of religion from what is essentially a questionnaire about society, and that gives off the wrong signals imo.

lostexpectation

Tim Robbins wrote: »

Congrads Lost Expectation. I still don't see what you hope to achieve that the HAI aren't trying to do already. Is it just a case good cop (HAI) and bad cop (AI)? I'd be surprised if you get as far as meeting the government, and if you do, I wonder how your submission would differ from the HAI's submission and what the government will be thinking is the difference.

But I wish you the best of luck.

again i never said we would meet the government, its an organisation for atheist not for submissions. and if we did meet them we wouldn't dishonestly pretend to have gotten a proper hearing and respect from them like HAI does.

Zamboni

Dades wrote: »

Of course the words here don't. But what is suggested is a concerted action to remove the mere mention of religion from what is essentially a questionnaire about society, and that gives off the wrong signals imo.

Meh, if you cared that much you wouldn't have gone to Top Gear

lostexpectation

sink wrote: »

I can see the point of an organisation promoting secularism, humanism or rationalism each of which have a doctrine to promote and spread but what exactly is the point of an atheist organisation. Atheism has no doctrine to teach no principles to follow, it is a complete void a simple lack of belief. You might as well set up a society that lacks belief in leprechauns, it will have just as much a purpose to fill. It would be the equivalent of an organisation promoting theism without any religious doctrine backing it up 'there is a creator but we don't know what it wants or what you should do as a result you should just know that there is one'. What's the point?

Once a person decides they are an atheist that is the end of it there is nowhere else to go with atheism anything more and one moves towards humanism or some other philosophy. There is also nothing attractive about just being an atheist. An atheist organisation is effectively asking people to leave all the religious aspects of their lives behind and replace it with nothing for atheism on it's own provides one with nothing.

I have a sense of pride in my secular humanism and it gives me a framework to conduct my life in a meaningful way. Other people are objectivists or hedonists but no one beside perhaps nihilists are purely atheists.

wouldn't an irish atheist like to know about non-denominational schools how to get married outside of church, buried etc, wouldn't an atheist like to campaign for secularism, question faith based politics etc.

sink

lostexpectation wrote: »

wouldn't an irish atheist like to know about non-denominational schools how to get married outside of church, buried etc, wouldn't an atheist like to campaign for secularism, question faith based politics etc.

Well then that wouldn't be simply an atheist organisation it would be a secularist one. Secularism is not the same thing as atheism, while most atheists are probably secularists it is not a prerequisite. Similarly many theists are secularists who would have similar interests to secular atheists. Atheism does not imply anything further than not believing in god, anything more and it becomes something else.

sink

An atheist organisation promoting secularism and providing secular services would be actively discriminating against secular theists who would also wish to avail of the same services. And the organisations goals would also suffer as there is strength in numbers and secular theist are quiet a sizeable group. I would even hazzard a guess that they constitute a larger group than atheists although probably less active.

lostexpectation

sink wrote: »

An atheist organisation promoting secularism and providing secular services would be actively discriminating against secular theists who would also wish to avail of the same services.

i don't think so, its hardly discrimination its just not aimed at them specifically. i think that sentence is ridiculous, we're a badminton club, if people want to play tennis they can go elsewhere

secular theists can get support elsewhere. i actually think there was a conscious decision to exclude (secular)theists, although we recognise there are decent secular theists out there which we'd be willing to work with, i don't think you can call a theist wholly rational. thus an atheist organisation.

in fact if we called ourselves simply secular ireland and then tried to exclude or ignore secular theists then that would be wrong, we havn't done that, we have clearly said we're atheist (many of whom are interested in church state secularisation)

And the organisations goals would also suffer as there is strength in numbers and secular theist are quiet a sizeable group. I would even hazard a guess that they constitute a larger group than atheists although probably less active.

well what you say is right but sure thats what we have, i argued for including the word secular in it, i don't think the having the title atheist Ireland exclude.
secularists.

you don't have to agree with everything and everybody in the organisation but if you want to campaign on a specific topic you can.

Tim Robbins

lostexpectation wrote: »

again i never said we would meet the government, its an organisation for atheist not for submissions. and if we did meet them we wouldn't dishonestly pretend to have gotten a proper hearing and respect from them like HAI does.

If you want to change anything you'll have to aim to meet the government. Do you think they just look at message boards and web forums for policy ideas? If you want to meet them, you'll have to have a clear agenda or submission. How much that differs from the HAI, I can't seem to figure out.
I am wondering, is the only motivation for this group because some people were irritated with the HAI?

Because all your aims, including:

lostexpectation wrote:

wouldn't an irish atheist like to know about non-denominational schools how to get married outside of church, buried etc, wouldn't an atheist like to campaign for secularism, question faith based politics etc.

are objectives of the HAI.

lostexpectation

HAI is the Humanist organisation or Ireland

the Humanist organisation is looking for recognitions of humanist officiators, the atheist org won't be doing that.

in relation to the group who set up AI I don't really don't think it has do with irritation with the HAI, its do to with not wanting to be humanist or have a written set of ethics as the HAI does and claims to have.

If you want to change anything you'll have to aim to meet the government

that's just your opinion. which you keep restating again and again ad nauseum.

now i don't exclude the possibility that members of the atheist Ireland will meet the government or submit group proposals.
i just personally don't know how you can meet with somebody who shows so much spite against secularist and expect to get anywhere.

lostexpectation

Tim Robbins wrote: »

I

Because all your aims, including:

are objectives of the HAI.

and the HAI doesn't own them

Zamboni

Tim Robbins wrote: »

I am wondering, is the only motivation for this group because some people were irritated with the HAI?

There were definately a few present.

Tim Robbins

lostexpectation wrote: »

HAI is the Humanist organisation or Ireland

the Humanist organisation is looking for recognitions of humanist officiators, the atheist org won't be doing that.

But you are just after saying:

wouldn't an irish atheist like to know about non-denominational schools how to get married outside of church, buried etc, wouldn't an atheist like to campaign for secularism, question faith based politics etc.

So your group wants to let atheists know how to get married outside a Church? So is your aim is to promote humanists weddings then?

in relation to the group who set up AI I don't really don't think it has do with irritation with the HAI, its do to with not wanting to be humanist or have a written set of ethics as the HAI does and claims to have.

That's fine. But as has been pointed out by other posters, atheism is just a word for disbelieve. After that it's meaningless.

Perhaps, Secular Ireland would be a better name as it sounds that is all you stand for.

now i don't exclude the possibility that members of the atheist Ireland will meet the government or submit group proposals.
i just personally don't know how you can meet with somebody who shows much spite against secularist and expect to get anywhere.

And you think you'll get further avoiding a democratically elected government from which all legislation comes?

I am sorry. I have issues with this group. If you call yourself atheist Ireland you are claiming to speak for atheists in Ireland. Otherwise the name is non - sensical. Don't you think have a little bit of responsibility not to misrepresent those who call themselves atheist?

Zamboni

Tim Robbins wrote: »

I am sorry. I have issues with this group. If you call yourself atheist Ireland you are claiming to speak for atheists in Ireland. Otherwise the name is non - sensical. Don't you think have a little bit of responsibility not to misrepresent those who call themselves atheist?

They very specifically state that they do not represent all atheists in Ireland. Indeed how could they..there was only 30 odd people there.

Asa group of people they can pretty much do what they want in the confines of the law. If people don't like what they hear about this group the only way to effect change is to become a part of it.

Tim Robbins

Zamboni wrote: »

They very specifically state that they do not represent all atheists in Ireland. Indeed how could they..there was only 30 odd people there.

Well then it's just an awful name. I think it's somewhat humourous that people who seem happy to be critical of other's for sloppy logic should use such imprecise language.

Asa group of people they can pretty much do what they want in the confines of the law. If people don't like what they hear about this group the only way to effect change is to become a part of it.

Or join a better version of it :-)

Zamboni

Tim Robbins wrote: »

Well then it's just an awful name. I think it's somewhat humourous that people who seem happy to be critical of other's for sloppy logic should use such imprecise language.


Or join a better version of it :-)

Peoples Front of Judea?

jill_valentine

Yeah, maybe AI should ask the Humanist Association how they manage to represent the entirety of the Humanist Hivemind so comprehensively...

I have no interest whatsoever in joining the HAI. I'd consider the AI.

ChocolateSauce

On the one hand, I would generally support most if not all of the aims of this new group, but I also want results more than rhetoric, and too strong a message may be counter-productive. I don't want the public to rally against atheism the way it has in some countries. A single undiplomatic action or inaction could damage the group and their cause. I have my reservations...but wish them luck.

Dades

jill_valentine wrote: »

I have no interest whatsoever in joining the HAI. I'd consider the AI.

Just noticed the acronym for Atheist Ireland... :pac:

Dave!

I think the HAI acronym is awesome :pac:

lostexpectation

Tim Robbins wrote: »

But you are just after saying:

So your group wants to let atheists know how to get married outside a Church? So is your aim is to promote humanists weddings then?

nope

I was waiting for you to say that, there are other ways to get married outside of church by other then humanists officiators, (and/or we will campaigning for more of such)

you seem to be trapped in a humanist or nothing mindset

That's fine. But as has been pointed out by other posters, atheism is just a word for disbelieve. After that it's meaningless.

its a word of apathy of antipathy of religion, one can live a meaningful atheist life.

Perhaps, Secular Ireland would be a better name as it sounds that is all you stand for.

no, as said, we're not aimed at secular theist organisation.

which Secular Ireland might suggest.

And you think you'll get further avoiding a democratically elected government from which all legislation comes?

democracy pffft i say.
i believe in people(humans?), not government funny that.
I believe that this government is hostile to heathens, even supposedly neutral judges of the various courts are actively hostile to heathens, I see you mentioned you're a PD that explains your comfortableness with the status quo of elites.

I am sorry. I have issues with this group. If you call yourself atheist Ireland you are claiming to speak for atheists in Ireland. Otherwise the name is non - sensical. Don't you think have a little bit of responsibility not to misrepresent those who call themselves atheist?

i don't see how we're are doing that.

lostexpectation

Tim Robbins wrote: »

I have issues with this group.

i don't see why you have a need to have problem with this group, and i don't know why rev hellfire needs to comment on something that's none of his business.

look names are tricky, i have problem with orgs like the IAWM or Irish Anti-War Movement using that name, because then you can't talk about the Irish anti-war movement without confusing it with the SWP dominated group. I don't think Atheist Ireland quite falls into that trap. But I'm open to suggestions although the name was decided upon yesterday by those at the meeting so i don't know if I or you can really comment much on it.

Tim Robbins

lostexpectation wrote: »

nope

I was waiting for you to say that, there are other ways to get married outside of church by other then humanists officiators, (and/or we will campaigning for more of such)

you seem to be trapped in a humanist or nothing mindset

Well perhaps if you specifically said on this one issue (marriage), what your group is looking for, that is different to the HAI, things would make a bit of sense.

You're very quick to say "oh we're not them", but I can seem to gather what differentiates you then. Except that you're angrier.

its a word of apathy of antipathy of religion, one can live a meaningful atheist life.

No. Atheist does not stipulate antipathy. That would be militant atheist.

i believe in people(humans?), not government funny that.
I believe that this government is hostile to heathens, even supposedly neutral judges of the various courts are actively hostile to heathens,

Sorry that makes no sense.

I see you mentioned you're a PD that explains your comfortableness with the status quo of elites.

Perhaps you could give examples of me being comfortable with elites before you try to derive the causal relationship why I am comfortable with it.

i don't see how we're are doing that.

By calling yourself by the name that denotes people who are now saying you don't represent. This is just nonsense.

sink

Frankly I probably support most of your goals but disapprove of the way you intend to achieve them. You set yourself purely in opposition to something without any clear idea of what you want to replace it with. You share many of the same objectives with other groups in society but intend to exclude them simply because you don't approve of their beliefs. You want to achieve all your goals without sitting down and talking with the government. I don't see this organisation providing any impetuous to secularism and is more likely to turn atheist into a dirty word. I'm not convinced that AI is anything more than a social organisation for disgruntled atheists.

lostexpectation

You set yourself purely in opposition to something without any clear idea of what you want to replace it with

atheism is indifference to religion sink. what to replace it with? hmm nothing but I would like more options re schools etc.

You share many of the same objectives with other groups in society but intend to exclude them simply because you don't approve of their beliefs

atheist.ie/atheist ireland, the clue is in the title sink.

i think more details of the positive atheism will be specified in the working groups next week, as i said go over to http://www.atheist.ie to see the discussion on them.

You want to achieve all your goals without sitting down and talking with the government. I don't see this organisation providing any impetuous to secularism and is more likely to turn atheist into a dirty word.

i don't believe the government and most people can see it in any other way.

I'm not convinced that AI is anything more than a social organisation for disgruntled atheists.

and i think you still don't understand what atheism is.

Rev Hellfire

I for one will be fascinated to see how they'll achieve legislative change without actually talking to those responsible for putting forward those changes in the first place.

It sounds like a hoot.

sink

lostexpectation wrote: »

atheism is indifference to religion sink. what to replace it with? hmm nothing but I would like more options re schools etc.

Then that is basically nihilism and is very damaging philosophy and one which I am directly opposed to. I would prefer people to remain religious then to become nihilists.

lostexpectation wrote: »

atheist.ie/atheist ireland, the clue is in the title sink.

I'm an atheist but atheism is only one part of my beliefs I have many others. Religion provide people with a moral structure and gives their lives purpose. Atheism on it's own without any philosophical grounding is meaningless.

lostexpectation wrote: »

i think more details of the positive atheism will be specified in the working groups next week, as i said go over to http://www.atheist.ie to see the discussion on them.

What positive side? Atheism is entirely neutral. If you are talking about the positives of rationalism or secularism than you are talking about rationalism and secularism not purely atheism.

lostexpectation wrote: »

i don't believe the government and most people can see it in any other way.

The only way to change things is to change their perspectives. You are not going to change anything without first changing them.

lostexpectation wrote: »

and i think you still don't understand what atheism is.

Atheism is not believing in dieties, hard atheism is an active belief that deities don't exist, soft atheism is just simply lacking belief in deities. There is nothing else to it. Atheism is not a philosophy for life. There are many atheistic philosophies as there are many theistic theologies.

• Humanism
• Objectivism
• Nihilism
• Freethought
• Rationalism