2,500 dead from drug abuse/OD in Ireland from '98-'05, does anyone care?

dotsman

Dudess wrote: »

As for the risks being publicised - many junkies are uneducated to the point of illiteracy in the first place.

They don't need to read the warnings. For those who are at the point of illiteracy, they are likely growing up in a background of junkies and can very well see for themselves how much people fcuk themselves up on the $hit

Hammered hippie

@Staker
In some parts of society I don't actually see that first fear or danger awareness.
Some smoke joints from 8-12 years old.
Then what follows is the dangerous persuasion techniques and peer critisism by 'friends' that leads to drug use.....just to be part of it.
For those who know the dangers but use anyways it is often never a choice one makes on its own

For those who didnot know enough about dangers ...it is tragic all together that they fall prey to heroin.

I work in an environment where I have to deal with loads of those who will probably never make it back from addiction or worse
I can be harsh to them...but I choose not to.
Also a choice..just as the choice you mention about using it or not.
And so often the choice not to do something is more easy than the choice to do something...even if it is just a smile or some help.

Dudess

dotsman wrote: »

They don't need to read the warnings. For those who are at the point of illiteracy, they are likely growing up in a background of junkies and can very well see for themselves how much people fcuk themselves up on the $hit

Look, I'm not defending heroin use, I'm just angered by the way people are so judgemental and moralising and heartless towards addicts.

amacachi

Dudess wrote: »

Look, I'm not defending heroin use, I'm just angered by the way people are so judgemental and moralising and heartless towards addicts.

+1.

Some addicts are still scumbags however and were scumbags well before they touched anything. Those ones I have no sympathy for in anything.

Hammered hippie

@dotsman
And that is all they see most likely. It must be the inevitable feeling of not being to escape that kind of environment that in the end gets to a person. Usually that is enough to choose the easy way of escape. Since that is what it is..it is the easy escape.

dotsman

Dudess wrote: »

Look, I'm not defending heroin use, I'm just angered by the way people are so judgemental and moralising and heartless towards addicts.

I agree. I'm not happy to see a junkie suffer/die (and am sympathetic to their families etc). But on the scale of things (ie deaths), I'm not overly sympathetic and (although I don't like to see anyone die!) I'd rather see 10 junkies die from an OD than 1 innocent kid die in some accident.

Hammered hippie

@amachi
That might be true....but I have never seen a baby that is a scumbag

So where does the scumbaggyness come from then?

Guy:Incognito

bondgirl wrote: »

Drug users should be given the help they need to come off the drugs, everyone makes mistakes and bad decisions, they should be allowed a second chance to turn their lives around

So why dont we all get government funding and help for all our mistakes? Why help junkies and not help me when I spend my money (by mistake) and cant pay loans?

Intstead of jailing drink drivers, we could give them a court appointed chauffeur.

amacachi

Hammered hippie wrote: »

@amachi
That might be true....but I have never seen a baby that is a scumbag

So where does the scumbaggyness come from then?

Seen many babies take heroin? :P

It's hard to define standards but I have my own based on what I've seen in my own area. People with the best of everythin can still be scum, people with next to nothing can be lovely people, different in each case.

ScumLord

Hammered hippie wrote: »

@Dudess
And to satisfy many a person's curiosity headshops provide safe content and professional information.
Usually the information about the stuff keeps people away from it since it turns out it was not the buzz they were looking for...they go back to drinking a beer and that's that
Often when they try they didn't like it and won't try drugs again.
The ones that like it usually stick to headshop stuff.

I don't know about that. Maybe it's because headshops weren't around when I was starting out but still I think if I had the choice between illegal drugs and legal I'd go for illegal. The stuff in headshops is sub par at best. It's like buying absinthe in this country. It's alcohol but it's still not the real deal. I see headshops as places collages students go to "walk on the wild side" but not offering any proper high.

Do you by any chance work in a headshop?

Having information and all the knowledge in the world won't stop you taking whatever when your drunk.

PeakOutput

nipplenuts wrote: »

I don't care about them. In many ways I'm sorry there's not more of them gone. The only "illness" they suffer from is selfishness. They are a burden on the health services at a time when other services (the cuts today, eg) for people who are victims of actual illness are being curtailed.

you sir are completely clueless

Des wrote: »

EVERYONE knows the dangers of heroin, so anyone who takes it is a retard and deserves everything they get, including death.

as are you

Fair play to anyone on drugs though who decides to get help..they deserve our full support but I have no time or sympathy for drug users of any kind

id hazard a guess that a large enough proportion to be relevant of the figures quoted are people who tried to quite went to rehab and then relapsed and accidently overdosed

I hate the judgemental crap on these threads of "they deserve to die". It's profoundly ignorant and stupid.

+1

Anyone who tries heroin "for the buzz" deserves what's coming.
Nothing judgemental or crap about it,just plain fact.
I'll refrain from labelling you stupid or ignorant because you normally post good sound opinions but sorry Dudess, i don't agree with your 'blanket slander'.

another clueless poster. there are plenty of people who try heroin when they should know better there are also a vast vast population of junkies who try it barely out of primary school(maybe not so much any more but up until 5 years ago definitely)

I assume the people saying they deserve to die also feel the same about alcoholics who die of alcohol related illness / smokers who die of smoking related illness and even gambling addicts who get themselves so in over their that they eitehr kill themselves or get killed by the unsavouries they owed money to due to their addiction

addiction completely runs in my family, grand parents / uncles as alcoholics (most functioning alcoholics but alcoholics nonetheless) gambling addicts n and i have an addictive personality however i know this because i was brought up very well and was well educated and i realised i can channel this personality into other avenues. alot of people do not have the same opportunities as i did and as a result of it fell into a spiraling hole they couldnt get out of this includes junkies

PeakOutput

ScumLord wrote: »

The stuff in headshops is sub par at best. It's like buying absinthe in this country.

you obviously havnt tried salvia

towel401

in some countries they give these filthy bastards free needles so they won't get aids. ya know just to prolong the suffering a bit more

PeakOutput

towel401 wrote: »

in some countries they give these filthy bastards free needles so they won't get aids. ya know just to prolong the suffering a bit more

they even give them somewhere safe to take it and.......i know youll never guess.........they give them clean drugs too so they dont die and then they help them try to quit


they also happen to be the same countries with the lowest drug related crimes and highest functioning addict populations

towel401

PeakOutput wrote: »

they even give them somewhere safe to take it and.......i know youll never guess.........they give them clean drugs too so they dont die and then they help them try to quit


they also happen to be the same countries with the lowest drug related crimes and highest functioning addict populations

the dirty, evil rotten bastards.

amacachi

Back when people could get heroin on prescription plenty of fully functioning, contributing members of society were on Heroin. They should've all been killed :rolleyes:

towel401

amacachi wrote: »

Back when people could get heroin on prescription plenty of fully functioning, contributing members of society were on Heroin. They should've all been killed :rolleyes:

every last one of them.

amacachi

towel401 wrote: »

every last one of them.

Especially the doctors saving lives all over the place.

Guy:Incognito

PeakOutput wrote: »

they also happen to be the same countries with the lowest drug related crimes and highest functioning addict populations

Doesnt take a genius to do the maths there, giv ecriminals free **** so they dotn have to steal. Sure we can just use our infinate bucket of money to do the same. Sure **** it, us law abiding citizens can just carry the can and pay for the lot. I'd rathe rpoliticians stole from me to live in a lap of luxury than junkies getting their gear for free so they dont run the risk of buying bad ****.

Think I'll become a burglar, that way the government will deliver a pallet of tv's, dvd players and laptops to me every month to make sure I dont have to acttually break into peoples houses.

Decent memebrs of society shouldnt be given a free supply of money so I dotn see why junkies and criminals should.

PeakOutput

Stekelly wrote: »

Doesnt take a genius to do the maths there, giv ecriminals free **** so they dotn have to steal.

name one thing its a crime to be addicted to please

edit; maybe you dont understand the term functioning addict either...........they work....therefore pay taxes therefore contribute to society therefore deserve societies help. hell i even i believe the ones that dont contribute deserve help if they want it but i wont try and convince you of that just yet

Guy:Incognito

PeakOutput wrote: »

name one thing its a crime to be addicted to please

You can be addicted to Heroin all you like, you just cant buy it or steal to buy it.


Either way, what has a self inflicted addiction got to do with it?

I have an addiction to spend money, I honestly cant have money in my pocket without spending it. If I get paid in cash too late on a friday to get to a bank my wages dont last till monday, which means my bills dont get paid (happens more often than I'd like). Why are the government not stepping in to pay my bils for me?

PeakOutput

Stekelly wrote: »

You can be addicted to Heroin all you like, you just cant buy it or steal to buy it.

so why create a situation that forces addicts to steal when you can create one that helps prevent their death

prevents them hurting anyone else because of their addiction

enables society to keep tabs on them and the very fact that society appears willing to help them will encourage them to quit so they can become members of this society that cares about them. this leads to more people in rehab which leads to more rehabilitated people which in turn leads to more people contributing to society and less people 'leeching' from it not forgetting what i already said about functioning addicts. its a no lose strategy in the medium term imo

but you keep perpetuating the cycle ignorance is bliss

PeakOutput

Stekelly wrote: »

I have an addiction to spend money, I honestly cant have money in my pocket without spending it. If I get paid in cash too late on a friday to get to a bank my wages dont last till monday, which means my bills dont get paid (happens more often than I'd like). Why are the government not stepping in to pay my bils for me?

fine ill bite even though its a stupid analogy

because you dont get a free ride. they will/should help you get any and all necessary treatment for your addiction(counciling psychological help whatever its part of free health care afaik and if its not it should be). mental addiction can be as powerfull as physical addiction but treating the symptoms(paying your bills so you dont have to) is not the same as curing the disease(finding out why you need to do this and giving you medically sound ways to help you out)

Guy:Incognito

PeakOutput wrote: »

so why create a situation that forces addicts to steal when you can create one that helps prevent their death

Because there are many many many much more deservign people when it comes to the limited amounts of cash available to spend on things. Can you honestly say money is better spent helping junkies than children dieing of cancer?

I'd much sooner give familes with disabled children money to make their lives easier than give it to help junkies.


If I run up debts and decide to defraud the company I work for to pay it thasts MY fault and I will get no help when it blows up in my face. If I decide to start knocking off old dears houses to pay my debts, should someone step in then with free money?

PeakOutput wrote: »

mental addiction can be as powerfull as physical addiction but treating the symptoms(paying your bills so you dont have to) is not the same as curing the disease(finding out why you need to do this and giving you medically sound ways to help you out)

Giving people free clean heroin and needles is a physical thing.

amacachi

Stekelly wrote: »

Because there are many many many much more deservign people when it comes to the limited amounts of cash available to spend on things. Can you honestly say money is better spent helping junkies than children dieing of cancer?

I'd much sooner give familes with disabled children money to make their lives easier than give it to help junkies.



Giving people free clean heroin and needles is a physical thing.

Well what else should the government ever spend money on when kids are dying from cancer?:rolleyes:

Heroin costs sweet FA even when everyone along the illegal production and sales lines have had their cut, so it would cost even less again for the government.

Guy:Incognito

amacachi wrote: »

Well what else should the government ever spend money on when kids are dying from cancer?:rolleyes:.

There are essential things that need money spent on them. Genuine sick people and tax paying , law abiding members of society come WAY further up the ladder of public spending than junkies.

amacachi wrote: »

Heroin costs sweet FA even when everyone along the illegal production and sales lines have had their cut, so it would cost even less again for the government.

What would you like the government to do? Produce their own? Or maybe go deal with the columbians or afgan producers directly to get a good rate? So to help our own junkies your fine with ****ting all over other countries poor and downtrodden by government funding of big drug kings and terrorists?

PeakOutput

Stekelly wrote: »

Giving people free clean heroin and needles is a physical thing.

the physical part of the sentence was refering to your analogy that was a mental addiction not a physical one

but anyway

it dosnt have to be free but even if it was forcing people to go cold turkey is physically dangerous so the best treatment is to ween them off gradually while they receive counciling and any other help they need

if the best treatment for your imaginary addiction is to pay the persons bills then thats what needs to be done. the solution is only as ridicolous as your analogy

who decides who is more deserving? everyone is born equal.

it is (usually) social problems at the stem of drug and other harmful addictions which suggests that at some point society(yes you and i) caused the situation and therefore we have a responsibility to clean it up and not carry on with reckless abandon. and if its not because the person was from a deprived background but because they have somewhat of an addictive personality then, imo i dont know if its been scientifically proven and im not bothered looking, that is no less deserving of treatment as say.........a genetic disposition to depression

PeakOutput

What would you like the government to do? Produce their own? Or maybe go deal with the columbians or afgan producers directly to get a good rate? So to help our own junkies your fine with ****ting all over other countries poor and downtrodden by government funding of big drug kings and terrorists?

i really hope your feigning stupidity because this is after hours

this is not an irish problem and its not just ireland that needs to come up with the solution

i dont know how the dutch government gets their heroin but i guarantee they are not dealing with afghanistan so why dont we deal with them? these are minor details that are easy to argue about and as easy to solve

edit; im going to sleep its been fun

Guy:Incognito

PeakOutput wrote: »

who decides who is more deserving? everyone is born equal.

Yes we are born equal, our choices from then on can make us less equal members of society. People who steal cars, break into houses, become junkies (and then partake in the stealig etc) etc are not equal to me and no amount of pc rubbish and whiging about the poor unfortunate souls is going to change my mind on that.

People need to grow unp and take responsibility for themselves instead of going through life like the country owes them somthing because they **** themselves up.

I know people first hand on both sides of the druig equation (junkies and people in large quantity supply) they are scum and nothing more. I also know little scumbag car thieves. These people are not equal to me in society and I would begrudge them every cent of any help they get that comes from tax I pay.

Four-Too

When will society and people start to care about his fellow man? In everyones chest there beats a heart. Have pity on those whos chances grow slimmer - the drug addicts. Their future is often very bleak.

amacachi

Stekelly wrote: »

There are essential things that need money spent on them. Genuine sick people and tax paying , law abiding members of society come WAY further up the ladder of public spending than junkies.

And how much money is spent on crime prevention due to heroin? And what about the less tangible costs of junkies on the streets dragging an area down?

What would you like the government to do? Produce their own? Or maybe go deal with the columbians or afgan producers directly to get a good rate? So to help our own junkies your fine with ****ting all over other countries poor and downtrodden by government funding of big drug kings and terrorists?

Where does Diamorphine come from?:rolleyes:

Guy:Incognito

Four-Too wrote: »

When will society and people start to care about his fellow man? In everyones chest there beats a heart. Have pity on those whos chances grow slimmer - the drug addicts. Their future is often very bleak.

My future woudl be very bleak too if I chose go on the dole, piss my money up against a wall and steal from my friends and family. But guess what, I dont do that, so I dotn see why we should support people who do.

amacachi

Stekelly wrote: »

My future woudl be very bleak too if I chose go on the dole, piss my money up against a wall and steal from my friends and family. But guess what, I dont do that, so I dotn see why we should support people who do.

Just out of interest, do you see all alcoholics as nothing but scum?

ScumLord

PeakOutput wrote: »

you obviously havnt tried salvia

I have. I don't get what the big draw is on salvia. I lost all interest in the headshops when they stopped selling shrooms the one good hallucinogenic.

PeakOutput

Stekelly wrote: »

I know people first hand on both sides of the druig equation (junkies and people in large quantity supply) they are scum and nothign more.

well then you associate with scum and they would probably be scum with or without the drugs

someone i know on the other hand grew up in an affluent neighbourhood was the son of a very well respected man and the youngest brother to perfectly 'normal' siblings

when he was somewhere between 13 and 15 someone(a scumbag) gave him heroin and he chose to take it(this was his mistake). cue the stealing from family first(as he could didnt want to steal but had to so figured stealling small things from family was preferable to mugging on the street) and then disapearing for 3 years and then being found completely longing for help. then cue many many years of heartache in an inept rehabilitation system trying to kick the habit and a final relapse were he took the amount of heroin he was used to before rehab which his body wasnt used to after that amount of time and died.

leave aside him personally and weather he did or did not deserve to die for a second and what about his family. did they deserve the physical pain of knowing every day someone they loved had to commit a crime just so he wouldnt have to go threw the physical pain withdrawal causes. should they have had to have the fact that they had to kick him out on the streets because there was nowhere else for him to go on their concience(sp)?

i dont think they should have and i think they as upstanding members of society should be given the help they needed (and they pay taxes for)

Four-Too

Stekelly wrote: »

My future woudl be very bleak too if I chose go on the dole, piss my money up against a wall and steal from my friends and family. But guess what, I dont do that, so I dotn see why we should support people who do.

With an attitude like that, your future IS very bleak my friend.

Guy:Incognito

amacachi wrote: »

Just out of interest, do you see all alcoholics as nothing but scum?

If they start stelaing from the innocent member sof society then yes. Use your own money to do as you like, it's when you involve the rest of us or effect money that would otherwise go to people who deserve it that you drop a level.

If a self made millionaire spends his money getting locked all day at home thats his choice. Someone who decides the dole and hassling people in the streets is a career is a different kettle of fish.

PeakOutput wrote: »

well then you associate with scum and they would probably be scum with or without the drugs

Where did I say I associate with them? I said I know them?

You cant choose your family or the familes of people in your family are involved with (thats a lot of family :-) )


BTW what makes the junkies I know scum with or without drugs yet the guy you know is a poor unfortunate victim of circumstance?

PeakOutput

ScumLord wrote: »

I have. I don't get what the big draw is on salvia. I lost all interest in the headshops when they stopped selling shrooms the one good hallucinogenic.

your the only person iv heard say that iv never tried it but i have heard bad stories

as much as they interest me hallucinigens scare me i might try mushrooms at some stage but id imagine that would be it

PeakOutput

Stekelly wrote: »

If a self made millionaire spends his money getting locked all day at home thats his choice. Someone who decides the dole and hassling people in the streets is a career is a different kettle of fish.

kinda says it all ste its not all about money. in fact when you put two people side by side one a millionaire junky and one a homeless one who cant afford it. it strikes home with me that its the homeless man who needs the help more than the millionaire

fine right now we are in a recession but we are in a recession because of having shortsighted tools in control of everything. id be very suprised if eliminating the need for spending money on drug offenders and all the costs associated with keeping them in prison etc helping people they hurt to feed their addiction etcetcetc did not completely offset the cost of proper treatment if not bring the country an actual profit

amacachi

Stekelly wrote: »

If they start stelaing from the innocent member sof society then yes. Use your own money to do as you like, it's when you involve the rest of us or effect money that would otherwise go to people who deserve it that you drop a level.

If a self made millionaire spends his money getting locked all day at home thats his choice. Someone who decides the dole and hassling people in the streets is a career is a different kettle of fish.

Right, so it's about money. So why not spend the money sensibly? Along with makin everything better for people like us who aren't addicts?

And before you say "Then why not give alcos free drink?", there's a fairly big difference in how well someone on heroin who is well used to it can function compared to a heavy drinker. :P

PeakOutput

Stekelly wrote: »

BTW what makes the junkies I know scum with or without drugs yet the guy you know is a poor unfortunate victim of circumstance?

because in my naeivity i trust your not simply judging them on weather they are addicted to drugs or not and because you metioned drug dealers who i do believe are scum accept for one important acception but thats another thread

Mr. Presentable

Sandor wrote: »

A lot of people who do drugs have problems. Real problems. Whether they have had rough lives or gone through some traumatic situations or they're from a broken home or suffer a mental illness, drugs is a release from all of that.
And yes I ****ing care. I knew one of those 2500. And **** everyone in this thread who says 'Good enough for them'.

I've lost two family members through heroin and, while the above may be true for you, it was not true for me or mine. The sneaking around the house stealing stuff, the taking of the grocery money, the lies - all this pure selfishness. And then the playing the victim act. "it's not my fault I was given it from a supplier, free to get me hooked", "the problem is society doesn't care", "I'm sick, I need it". They broke my mothers heart, and probably contributed to her early passing.

They were not from a broken home. Not had rough lives. Not gone through trauma. Not mentally ill. Enough already with the excuses and let's make them take responsibility for their actions. FFS, people are getting away with crimes by saying they have a drugs problem. Society needs to stop coddling these people and treat them as adults.

Yes, of course, there will be the occasional genuine victime, but on the whole they are a bunch of weak-willed self obsessed pariahs.

S.I.R

i couldnt care less,


like i said to my mates

" its twice as sweet as sugar, twice as sour as salt , and if you get hooked, its nobody elses fault! "


a saying for life imo :rolleyes:

Dragan

Pighead wrote: »

Here here.

Well said Des, now go and have a cigarette in celebration of your excellent post.

If you have such an issue with people smoking why don't you lobby to have it made illegal Pighead?

Or is this another one of your "suit your mood" stances on something?

As for heroin, **** anyone who goes near it. Plain and simple.

PeakOutput

i love when people talk about things they know nothing about

after hours at its best

id love to see dragans opinion after he gets cancer from smoking(or if dragan dosnt smoke or drink any other self righteous hypocrite on this thread) and gets told by the health service '**** ye sorry you knew well what would happen'

Degsy

Its hight time the government and the taxpayer stopped funding the lifestyles of these dirtbags.
I like a drink,i dont go to an off license with a note from my doctor demanding free beer.
**** em.

Dragan

PeakOutput wrote: »

i love when people talk about things they know nothing about

after hours at its best

id love to see dragans opinion after he gets cancer from smoking(or if dragan dosnt smoke or drink any other self righteous hypocrite on this thread) and gets told by the health service '**** ye sorry you knew well what would happen'

Well if you want my opinion all you have to do is ask, or is it handier to just lurk around and read things?;)

I used to smoke and accept full responsibility for my own health.

It's as simple as this. You make your choices and you do what you can. I work my 9 to 5. I get a salary every month. With that salary I pay my rent, i pay my health insurance, i pay my life assurance, i pay my gym memberships and i choose what kind of balance i wish to have in my own life.

There is a massive difference between light that first cigarette and spiking that first needle.

And how do you know about my knowledge of heroin, or the people who use it, or the peope i spent a couple of years in Limerick trying to help who, in their mind, were "afflicted" by this horrible drug?

You call me a self rigtheous hyprocrite?

That sir, is ****ing delicious irony right there.

Zangetsu

"There is a massive difference between light that first cigarette and spiking that first needle."

So wrong I actually laughed!

The Master

Around 3,500 people committed suicide in Ireland between 2000 and 2006

much more disturbing statistic imo

I.S.T.

Mordeth wrote: »

that's it?
2500 people in seven/eight years. How many have died from alcohol abuse? car crashes? stabbing themselves in the throat with a fork while trying to eat spaghetti?

It works out at 357 a year. Almost the same as the number killed in car crashes each year (http://www.garda.ie/statistics98/rtastats_longterm.html). Why not the same amount of publicity?