M9? - Is it a waste of money?

Bards

invincibleirish wrote: »

Will you be voting FF Bards?

Off Topic Posting

Bards

invincibleirish wrote: »

:rolleyes: its a simple question thats relevant to the topic at hand, no need to get so tasty. I take it thats a yes you will be voting FF btw.

Please tell me how I voted or am going to vote is relevant to the topic at hand - Are you going to play the ball or the person?

invincibleirish

And to you and the other naysayers, again we know the M9 is being built. That was acknowledged by the OP and reaffirmed several times in the thread despite our S/E cousins seemingly wanting no debate, we're still allowed to discuss the ramifications of the M9 decision and the fog of gombeen man politics that shrouds it.

Bards

invincibleirish wrote: »

I just asked a simple Q thats all, you dont have to answer if you dont want to, im just curious as to whether folks supportive of the M9 are also supportive of the Government generally thats all.

I ignored the first request on the original thread, you asked again many posts back (#37), seeing as you asked a third time and couldn't get the hint, I feel I had to respond and it is Irrelevant to the topic and an oppurtunity for you to throw mud, so don't ask again

wrote:

BTW the entire M9 got the go ahead for construction in 2 years, thats what Mysterious was referring to.

This is not what he said. He got his facts completly wrong, and let Mysterious respond to his own posts.

http://www.n9-n10kilcullen-waterford.ie/project-programme.htm

wrote:

As for the AADTs you posted, you do realise that those are higher numbers then similar sections of the N9, really you're proving my POV rather then you're own?.

Can you count. The figures I got from the NRA website are all less than the one on the N9 at Loughlin Bridge

wrote:

And to you and the other naysayers, again we know the M9 is being built. That was acknowledged by the OP and reaffirmed several times in the thread despite our S/E cousins seemingly wanting no debate, we're still allowed to discuss the ramifications of the M9 decision and the fog of gombeen man politics that shrouds it.

What ramifications would that be? Are you afraid of increased economic prosperity in the S.E? Less road deaths?

invincibleirish

Bards wrote: »

I ignored the first request on the original thread, you asked again many posts back (#37), seeing as you asked a third time and couldn't get the hint, I feel I had to respond and it is Irrelevant to the topic and an oppurtunity for you to throw mud, so don't ask again

As i said you didn't have to answer, because you decide it isn't relevant doesn't make it so, so i'll ask if i i like. this thread is about the M9, which is part of the Governments IU construction programme, i consider this to be an ill thought out policy and symptomatic of this Govs bad policy making in general.I would like to know if those who support the M9 are supportive of the Gov in general or do they see the M9 as a special exception and if so why.

Bards wrote: »

This is not what he said. He got his facts completly wrong, and let Mysterious respond to his own posts.

http://www.n9-n10kilcullen-waterford.ie/project-programme.htm

Fair enough, let him do so.

Bards wrote: »

Can you count. The figures I got from the NRA website are all less than the one on the N9 at Loughlin Bridge

Only with a calculator. Those figures are all also well in excess of the 6k vehicles that of the AADTs at Mullinavat. Look if we're just going to argue over AADTs all day lets do so:

Newlands X
Cork SRR upgrades
Claregalway

These 3 projects alone outnumber current N9 AADTs, if these 3 projects were built now with money spent on the M9 a the multiplier effect on the national economy would be far greater.

Bards wrote: »

What ramifications would that be? Are you afraid of increased economic prosperity in the S.E? Less road deaths?

Cop on be serious, Bards when will you and your ilk stop taking things so personally?

You want ramifications? simple, as gridlock increases in all our cities huge money is spent on pork barrel projects ala WRC & M9. Now money is running out we cannot afford to maintain spending levels .but still there is a huge backlog of public transport and road projects in limbo. Meanwhile we'll have lots of Motorways around the country and especially in the SE. Really what i preach is best value for money, and that the M9 money could have been spent more efficiently.

Bards

invincibleirish wrote: »

Cop on be serious, Bards when will you and your ilk stop taking things so personally?

when you and your ilk stop trying to deny the S.E Infrastrucutre that is necessary

Calina

Bards wrote: »

Off Topic Posting

This is an example of backseat moderation and which will get you an infraction if you try it again. Please report posts that you think are not in keeping with the charter.

invincibleirish wrote: »

:rolleyes: its a simple question thats relevant to the topic at hand, no need to get so tasty. I take it thats a yes you will be voting FF btw.

This is an example of an off topic post. His voting intentions are irrelevant to the discussion in hand. If you need to know them to counter his position in thread, then you've lost already.

Look, I realise that the question of infrastructural investment is key to the future of this country, however, a debate can be had on the subject without griping about people's voting intentions.

It is far too prevalent in this country to say "if you vote this party, that is your fault" without actually understanding that people vote on a whole range of matters which may or may not be relevant to the subject in hand. Unless of course you think the country is best served by single issue voting - oh wait - we'd have an army of independent TDs then, wouldn't we?

You want to talk about the M9, be my guest. But the two of you will either have a constructive discussion on M9 and plans for it or take holidays from the forum. Broadening it to include the entire infrastructural package so to justify asking someone how they will vote is really not kosher.

In other words, Bards, you report posts instead of doing a bit of backseat moderation and you, invincibleirish will learn the difference between harping on about someone's voting intentions and infrastructure.

This is a second in thread warning - I see Victor has one in the thread too. Now usually, at this point I'd be closing a thread particularly if I think it is likely to die anyway. Threads about specific routes are an exception because of their nature. So you can either chill out and talk about the route in question, or you will both be taking a holiday.

I'll repeat this in simple terms:

1) no backseat medding
2) no thread derailing.

In other words, M9 okay, but going on about other people's voting intentions is off topic and backseat modding is not acceptable.

return to normal business.

invincibleirish

Bards wrote: »

when you and your ilk stop trying to deny the S.E Infrastrucutre that is necessary

Hmm, i'm just a poster on a message board, i'm not trying to deny anyone anything as i say i just think money could be better spent.

Zoney

I'll yet again point out that the M9, like the other interurbans, was originally supposed to have been finished by 2006. That date should have been stuck to, as with inflation and the construction boom the way it was, prices were going up rapidly.

If these routes had been finished by 2006, we would not be having this argument because Newlands and the M20 would be well underway.

Who is responsible? Well, who has been in power for a decade of boom times?

ardmacha

I'll yet again point out that the M9, like the other interurbans, was originally supposed to have been finished by 2006.

I don't think the 2006 date was realistic, you have to ramp up these things. Trying to do it all too quickly would certainly have increased construction inflation.

Fighting Irish

Well the road from Carlow to Waterford is fooking piss poor, so ye it probably should be made better

Amtmann

mysterious wrote: »

Fact again is, TWO of the M9 schemes should of not been allowed to go ahead last year under the economic climate and for now give way to stalling all other projects because of this really stupid decision.

None of the Interurbans got TWO schemes started in one year, even in the 2005 -07 boom times.
Limerick for example: has only two schemes Portlaoise -Castletown and Nenagh to Limerick build contracts. It has taken 4 in a half years for the entire route to be completed up until 2010.

Point of information: the M8 had two schemes started in 2006, and two started in 2007.

mysterious

Zoney wrote: »

I'll yet again point out that the M9, like the other interurbans, was originally supposed to have been finished by 2006. That date should have been stuck to, as with inflation and the construction boom the way it was, prices were going up rapidly.

Again I will have to point out..
The M9 was not originally meant to be finished in 2006 when the original NDP was envisaged!

The Cork Limerick and galway was 2002 - 2006
Waterford N9 was for 2007 and it was a maybe...

Back in 2004 -05 the dail, were even debating whether or not to dual the N9!!

Now this will show how far and extreme things have gone.

Cullen as minister for transport drew all over the map.

If these routes had been finished by 2006, we would not be having this argument because Newlands and the M20 would be well underway.

Who is responsible? Well, who has been in power for a decade of boom times?

That paragraph is irrelevant, of course you could go back further and further bringing up these farce points.

Point of the matter. This kinda of careless political spending towards examples like the M9 to be built in two years at the suspension of other projects.

Is not acceptable. The low traffic section SHOULD NOT of got priority over the Newlands cross or N18, N20 schemes. When two of the M9 schemes went ahead.....

mysterious

Furet wrote: »

Point of information: the M8 had two schemes started in 2006, and two started in 2007.

Could you give me the exact examples.
If so I do not agree with it. Considering the N7 limerick route had no project starting for many years! and the Limerick section (the main route):D

If the logic and situation applied to the Limerick N7 been far shorter than the Galway and Cork routes, would have been completed in 2007 if the N7 had two schemes starting in the one year.


But my pont again, projects should be prioritised and listed in order of needs and most necessary at the time. For example (and has happened) a bypass proposed for ballynowhere in Donegal, and the bypass goes ahead etc. Opens, ribbons cut. great.

But Adare on a national route crying for a bypass for the last 20 years, suffers tailbacks of 3 miles on evening at times. Adare ignored again.

Someone explain to me, is this example not simalar to the Newlands cross over the M9 dilemma?

I don't want this political white elephant planning going forward. Where we get into these chaos and quarrels of the running of country, chaos on these threads, and have our finances also running into chaos, for us to complain again about!!!

Mr. Cullen your are indeed an idiot!:mad::mad:

Lennoxschips

Give these people a week commuting between Waterford & Kilkenny on the current "road" and see then what they think about the M9..

That's a straw man argument. Of course the existing N9 needed to be upgraded. The question is whether they should be replaced wholesale with an M9 or upgraded to top-quality single carriageway.

At first, the government opted to upgrade the N9 to top-quality single carriageway, with substantial bits of it having upgraded in during the past decade. (like this) Then, after these bits had already been built, they are already being made obsolete because the government changed their minds and built an M9 instead.

So whatever way you look at it, either pro or anti-motorway, the government's approach has been a waste of tax payer's money.

ipodrocker

is there is real point moaning about the timeline of projects when we all know by this time 2010 all the interurbans will be completed and most likely ahead of schedule as it the NRA's way except for the m50 of course!

Amtmann

mysterious wrote: »

Could you give me the exact examples.
If so I do not agree with it. Considering the N7 limerick route had no project starting for many years! and the Limerick section (the main route):D

Sure.

Cashel to Mitchelstown started May 2006; Cashel to Cullahill started October 2006.

Mitchelstown to Fermoy started December 2007; Cullahill to Portlaoise started June 2007 (although this is a PPP).

mysterious

ipodrocker wrote: »

is there is real point moaning about the timeline of projects when we all know by this time 2010 all the interurbans will be completed and most likely ahead of schedule as it the NRA's way except for the m50 of course!

It's not moaning.

I'm saying I can't agree with this chaos and bad planning.
Don't know what other's are moaning about.

But I see stupidity beyond belief.

We build are MIUs all by 2010................ Great.

But it's all going to cram into a newlands cross which already suffers chronic conjestion every single day. Because of this race. We have neglected infastructural projects throughout the country. For a race, and cram it into a corkscrew by Newlands. Does this not suggest the stupidity of this government. Put 3 motorways into newlands cross (not upgraded) by 2010

Or Newlands cross upgraded with 2 motorways and the other M9 waiting for funds. Which makes logical sense.

I will give you a clue, which will cause more to moan.

Two of the M9 schemes going ahead last year was absurd, while the suspension of the N18 and Newlands x were given. The N20 has not recieved attention for the last 15 years. Yet traffic levels are generally higher than that of the N9.

Where is the logic here?

My point is this, this transport agenda was only to give fianna fail a cheer for completing the MIUs by 2010, (fours years late) and a much needed t boost to their all time low in approval ratings.

Given this agenda, which is farce does not in any way allow for them to spend recklessly on top of that.

It's about timing and planning and proceeding with the plan accordingly. Not picking routes on a spanking map, to which the people will likely see oh they did this, picking and choosing some important and not so important roads, make it look like they are actually doing something etc oh fantastic, etc.....



This is what irratates the bejesus out of me. I would be happy if they just did the tranport agenda by the proper NDP they planned and just stick with it and not theirs!

I'm not at all fooled as to why the M9 went ahead the way it did.

mysterious

Furet wrote: »

Sure.

Cashel to Mitchelstown started May 2006; Cashel to Cullahill started October 2006.

Mitchelstown to Fermoy started December 2007; Cullahill to Portlaoise started June 2007 (although this is a PPP).

But two schemes didn't start at the same time.

Portlaoise Cullahill was meant to start in 2005 originally, so that not relevant to your point, it was delayed for a long time. And as you said it's a PPP and does not come out of our pockets or get involved with the schemes of which are not PPPs, which is what we are discussing. Bear in mind this Portaoise Castletown/Cullohil is also tied to the Limerick route. This section of M7/M8 s among the most vital and not some low 6k a day road. This shouln't be used as an example in which your comparing to the Waterford example I pointed out.


I didn't agree with the 2 N8 schemes going ahead either. But to be fair the N8 is a far longer and busier route than the N9. It connects a far larger city to Dublin. It had to be built sooner, thus there are many bottlenecks on the N8 which were horrendus, Bear in mind.

Carawaystick

ipodrocker wrote: »

is there is real point moaning about the timeline of projects when we all know by this time 2010 all the interurbans will be completed and most likely ahead of schedule as it the NRA's way except for the m50 of course!

The N20 won't be done by 2010, and that's an interurban route. don't believe the untruths/misinformation spouted by the nra

L1011

Carawaystick wrote: »

The N20 won't be done by 2010, and that's an interurban route. don't believe the untruths/misinformation spouted by the nra

Erm, 'untruths/misinformation' is just the definition of the terms they've used. The NRA defined the concept of 'major interurban route' and the N20 wasn't one of them. Theres no untruth there.

BluntGuy

Well IMO an MIU is a road that links two major-urban centres, and by Irish standards, Limerick and Cork are two such centres, therefore the M20 is an MUI.

However, the NRA's definition is any road that links Dublin to another major urban centre, so in that respect, they aren't lying.

merlante

invincibleirish wrote: »

This is incomprehensible, essentially you argue for infrastructure provision on the basis of want over need. You make out Waterford and the S/E is some kind of major urban area, it isnt. The M9 wont make it so either.

Road usage statistics, while you may not like them for obvious reasons, are a reliable indicator of how many people are actually going to use the new road. parts of the N9 have 6k AADT, meaning that with the advent of the M9, whole sections of the M9 will have tiny traffic figures.

Lets be generous and assume that traffic increases by 25% on opening of the M9, sections will still struggle to even break into 5 figure AADTs, madness! there are literally dozens of projects on the NRAs to do list which will replace/upgrade roads which carry well in excess of what a lot of the N/M9 carries.

It's really very easy to understand. You have nearly half a million people living in the south east, at least half of whom will be served by the M9. In other regions, such as the west, the population is lower, and live further away from the road on average. Population forms the basis of current and future need. Measuring the traffic on sections of roads of varying quality nationally, while interesting, is not the most reliable way of gauging future traffic on a brand new road.

Traffic volumes are a function of road quality, size and the existence of alternative routes, as well as other factors such as population and economic activity. It is simply self-serving to suggest that measuring current road traffic volumes on a bad road will give anything other an indicator (one of many potential indicators) of expected traffic volumes on a high quality road.

Some people on here also seem to forget that we live in a democratic country, where individuals have a right to expect a level of service from the state comensurate with the population of the local area and local region. Neither more or less is equitable.

Waterford is, and always has been, one of the state's major cities. Outside of the GDA, there is no town even half as large as Waterford (the smallest city), which underlies exactly how critical the regional cities of Cork, Limerick, Galway and Waterford are to their respective regions (and to Ireland's chances of building a spatially balanced country) regardless of how much smaller they are than Dublin. Why Waterford should be singled out as being underdeserving of a motorway is mystifying, until you consider certain political realities and convenient biases.

It is equally mystifying that Galway and the west would be automatically considering to need a motorway, whereas Waterford and the south east are accused of pork barrel politics for expecting the same. The south east is a more populous, and more densely populated region than the west, and I would imagine that the population within 15-20 miles of Waterford would be about the same as Galway's catchment, considering the proximity of biggish towns, such as Tramore, New Ross and Carrick-On-Suir. With the exception of Galway city, there are no centres of any significance within its catchment, or very few anywhere else in the region for that matter.

The fact of the matter is, due to years of electoral fraud -- the watchword for all the county's ills at the moment -- it is considered acceptable to invest in Galway and convenient to neglect Waterford in recent years, despite Waterford having been the larger urban area within the lifetimes of most people on here. Some posters would be better served by taking a look at the CSO website rather than spluttering indignantly when others make reasonable points that just happen to brush up against a few of their fondly held biases.

invincibleirish

merlante wrote: »

It's really very easy to understand. You have nearly half a million people living in the south east, at least half of whom will be served by the M9. In other regions, such as the west, the population is lower, and live further away from the road on average. Population forms the basis of current and future need. Measuring the traffic on sections of roads of varying quality nationally, while interesting, is not the most reliable way of gauging future traffic on a brand new road.

I'm not sure what you are trying to say here, all i can ascertain is that you are massaging population figures to justify the M9. It would be fair enough if the half a million people you cite were in one or several areas served by the M9, but really as already acknowledged, the M9 serves 3 urban areas- Waterford, Carlow & Kilkenny, population - 100k(ish). Just adding up counties populations that are in the S/E to justify the M9 is simplistic.

merlante wrote: »

Traffic volumes are a function of road quality, size and the existence of alternative routes, as well as other factors such as population and economic activity. It is simply self-serving to suggest that measuring current road traffic volumes on a bad road will give anything other an indicator (one of many potential indicators) of expected traffic volumes on a high quality road.

OK then you tell me then on what criteria a new motorway should be built?where is all the extra traffic going to come from that will make the M9 worthwhile? i have no doubt the M9 will be busy immediately outside Waterford, but the only way extra traffic will occur in the quieter sections will be if urban sprawl occurs and/or if long distance traffic massively increases.

merlante wrote: »

Some people on here also seem to forget that we live in a democratic country, where individuals have a right to expect a level of service from the state comensurate with the population of the local area and local region. Neither more or less is equitable.

You are right we live in a democratic country, but why is it that resources allocated to the roads programme are spent in a way that is more befitting a banana republic?

merlante wrote: »

Waterford is, and always has been, one of the state's major cities. Outside of the GDA, there is no town even half as large as Waterford (the smallest city), which underlies exactly how critical the regional cities of Cork, Limerick, Galway and Waterford are to their respective regions (and to Ireland's chances of building a spatially balanced country) regardless of how much smaller they are than Dublin. Why Waterford should be singled out as being underdeserving of a motorway is mystifying, until you consider certain political realities and convenient biases .

Waterford has 50k. It's not even a city in reality no matter how old or important you deem it to be. A 'spatially balanced country' would entail concentrating spending in 1 or 2 areas to develop critical mass - if this came to pass neither of those areas would be Waterford.

merlante wrote: »

It is equally mystifying that Galway and the west would be automatically considering to need a motorway, whereas Waterford and the south east are accused of pork barrel politics for expecting the same. The south east is a more populous, and more densely populated region than the west, and I would imagine that the population within 15-20 miles of Waterford would be about the same as Galway's catchment, considering the proximity of biggish towns, such as Tramore, New Ross and Carrick-On-Suir. With the exception of Galway city, there are no centres of any significance within its catchment, or very few anywhere else in the region for that matter.

You make a better point then perhaps you might realise, why are we building Motorways to what are essentially mid size towns?.

merlante wrote: »

The fact of the matter is, due to years of electoral fraud -- the watchword for all the county's ills at the moment -- it is considered acceptable to invest in Galway and convenient to neglect Waterford in recent years, despite Waterford having been the larger urban area within the lifetimes of most people on here. Some posters would be better served by taking a look at the CSO website rather than spluttering indignantly when others make reasonable points that just happen to brush up against a few of their fondly held biases.

Interesting take on things- because "having been the larger urban area(then Galway) within the lifetimes of most people on here" - then thats a good argument for building the M9? Care to remind me of my fondly held biases? And oh what electoral fraud? were E-Voting machines invovled?

Carawaystick

MYOB wrote: »

Erm, 'untruths/misinformation' is just the definition of the terms they've used. The NRA defined the concept of 'major interurban route' and the N20 wasn't one of them. Theres no untruth there.

The N20 is a Major interurban route. It links the second and third largest cities in the state. Just because the NRA speak some la la land version of english or refuse to use words as their usual meaning, does not make it right. I could define the phrase "fine forward thinking bunch of chaps" to mean the Govt. Doesn't make it true.
If the NRA decided to call the cycle track on the N1, a motorway (because that is their definition of the concept) would you believe them?

There is no reasonable alternative of a rail route between Limerick and Cork unlike the N1/N6/N7/N8/N9 (and soon the N18) routes.

All that I think as so much of the N9 was poor, north of Carlow and Thomastown, among some examples, and as the entire Moone/Timolin wide section of the road was just not wide enough to make Dual Carriageway..... then any upgrades of these poor sections should have been Dual Carriageway / Motorway

All of the road being upgraded, I'm not so sure of. If the N11 was upgraded to Enniscorthy and then the N30 to ross, and assuming the Atlantic Corridor route of the N25 was upgraded, there would have been less road to build from Clogh to Waterford than from Kilcullen to Waterford.

However these two primary routes are (N30/25/11 vs N9) are far enough apart and separated by mountains most of the route compared to the M1,N2,M3 that I'd easily prefer a M9 than any improvement to the N2 north of Ashbourne, while the <8 km of N33 separates the N2 from the M1

BluntGuy

Well the NRA chose to define MUI in this case as roads linking Dublin to other major towns and cities. They stated that the five MUIs will be complete by 2010, and regardless of whether you disagree or agree with their choice of routes, are aware of the fact they were originally planned for 2006, or have a different (read: correct) concept of what an MUI actually is, they certainly didn't lie in that respect to be fair.

They will have "their" MUIs done by 2010.

BluntGuy

Carawaystick wrote: »

All that I think as so much of the N9 was poor, north of Carlow and Thomastown, among some examples, and as the entire Moone/Timolin wide section of the road was just not wide enough to make Dual Carriageway..... then any upgrades of these poor sections should have been Dual Carriageway / Motorway

Moone/Timolin-bypass could've easily been 2+2 DC.

But I disagree with 2+2 greenfield projects... waste of time. If you're going greenfield, build a proper DC. I don't care if it has the at-grade roundabouts or LILOs, but you may as well put the hard shoulder there.

Carawaystick

BluntGuy wrote: »

Well the NRA chose to define MUI in this case as roads linking Dublin to other major towns and cities. They stated that the five MUIs will be complete by 2010, and regardless of whether you disagree or agree with their choice of routes, are aware of the fact they were originally planned for 2006, or have a different (read: correct) concept of what an MUI actually is, they certainly didn't lie in that respect to be fair.

They will have "their" MUIs done by 2010.

What two major towns or cities does the M50 link?
Or even the N1? Jonesboro or Carrickcarnan? or even Newry (tongue in cheek)

If the nra honestly believe main interurban route only means what they define it to mean, then we can add deluded to all the other nice adjectives about them.

this is waay off topic now. I'll say no more on it.

Anyway I saw some analysis regarding the width of the bridge on the moone/timolin section and it would not have been wide enough for the standard of dual carriageway in vogue at the time. (pre 2by2 )
http://n9-n10kilcullen-waterford.ie/route-selection/2-4moone-timolin.htm

a bit wishy washy excuse.

anyway if a dual carriageway is to be built to Dublin from Waterford, and assuming there is no other way to prevent private accesses opening without it being motorwayed, then motorway it. but really the normal motorway extras should be included - HQDC, sos phones etc.

Cool Mo D

The M50 is not an MIU. It is the Dublin orbital motorway.

And the N1 is the part of the link between Dublin and Belfast that the NRA has responsibility for - it is their part of the road link between the two (by far!) biggest cities in Ireland. Does that clear things up for you?

BluntGuy

Carawaystick wrote: »

Anyway if a dual carriageway is to be built to Dublin from Waterford, and assuming there is no other way to prevent private accesses opening without it being motorwayed, then motorway it. but really the normal motorway extras should be included - HQDC, sos phones etc.

Yes. As the N9 upgrade is being built as DC then it is correct to have motorway restrictions on it.

As for the "extras"... I see no service stations, advanced lighting and emergency telephones on the recently redesignated M6, M8 and M9 schemes. However, since they were originally envisiged as HQDC, I can excuse that.

But there is no excuse for the M8 Cullahill-Cashel, the M9 Carlow-Kilcullen or any other redesignated scheme to open without them...

Carawaystick

Cool Mo D wrote: »

The M50 is not an MIU. It is the Dublin orbital motorway.

And the N1 is the part of the link between Dublin and Belfast that the NRA has responsibility for - it is their part of the road link between the two (by far!) biggest cities in Ireland. Does that clear things up for you?

I was being facetious about the N/M1 (read between the parenthesis)

but seriously
look up http://www.nra.ie:80/mapping/index.jsp
For route number pick 50 , click submit
and see what the legend to the transport 21 logo means?

it's designed not to be directly linkable

road_high

Just down around south Kilkenny today and checking out the M9 (sorry no pics)...
It seems to me progress has been pretty slow for the past year, really just trundling along with no apparent urgency. It started in Feb 2007 and now almost Dec 2008 (duh!)..........compare with the Carlow bypass which started in May/April 2006 and opened end of May 2008.

So at that rate it should open by next Feb or March, but from what I can see, and I'm no expert, that seems fairly unlikely. While large stretches of the road surface are now laid/being laid there appears to be some major areas of work still undone, particularly around the Mullinavat junction. And a major flyover over the existing N9 just north of Waterford at Kearns pub seems to be only starting to be built. I know the contract says Q3 2009.
Anybody else have any other info as to when it might perhaps open???

fricatus

Yeah, they also seem to be putting in a viaduct between the new Newrath roundabout and the new M25 junction (running parallel to that road where the level crossing is). Still though, they have to build it over a railway line and a stream, so it might still take some time. I couldn't see it being finished by March.

Someone (was it Bards?) mentioned August/September, I think.

Bards

fricatus wrote: »

Yeah, they also seem to be putting in a viaduct between the new Newrath roundabout and the new M25 junction (running parallel to that road where the level crossing is). Still though, they have to build it over a railway line and a stream, so it might still take some time. I couldn't see it being finished by March.

Someone (was it Bards?) mentioned August/September, I think.

Yep it sure was, Latest info I have is that the M25 Wateford City Bypass and the M9 Waterford Knocktopher will be opened in and around the same time (August/September 2009)

johnnyc

mike65 wrote: »

Your logic means Dublin/Pale will eat Ireland.

Mike

Mike i agree with your comment, a lot of dublin boards members are on about economics and waste of money they can speak if we talk about waste of money lets talk about the luas, m50 toll bridge etc. There should be a distribution of wealth spread around the country for example most heavy industry should be taken out of dublin as the city will run out of water by 2016 anyway.. The motorway projects in my opinion are the best way to attract development into out small cities cork,waterford,limerick,galway, kilkenny and so on. In the long run a modern country like ours requires proper development

BluntGuy

Bards wrote: »

Yep it sure was, Latest info I have is that the M25 Wateford City Bypass and the M9 Waterford Knocktopher will be opened in and around the same time (August/September 2009)

Yes, that is why I have heard too. But I would not be so sure about that...

I have my doubts as to whether the bridge will be open by September next year. Yes, it certainly is progressing well, and the mainline is going very well also, with many sections ready to be paved, but September does seem a bit unrealistic.

Bards

BluntGuy wrote: »

Yes, that is why I have heard too. But I would not be so sure about that...

I have my doubts as to whether the bridge will be open by September next year. Yes, it certainly is progressing well, and the mainline is going very well also, with many sections ready to be paved, but September does seem a bit unrealistic.

please see http://www.nce.co.uk/international/features/2008/09/cross_country_runner.html

Cable Stay installation is due to get underway this week. Expect the Physical bridge to be complete by Late April/Early May 2009

Edit: 1st Cable Stay installed today

invincibleirish

johnnyc wrote: »

Mike i agree with your comment, a lot of dublin boards members are on about economics and waste of money they can speak if we talk about waste of money lets talk about the luas, m50 toll bridge etc. There should be a distribution of wealth spread around the country for example most heavy industry should be taken out of dublin as the city will run out of water by 2016 anyway.. The motorway projects in my opinion are the best way to attract development into out small cities cork,waterford,limerick,galway, kilkenny and so on. In the long run a modern country like ours requires proper development

His comment is actually out of date by about 15 years:). the GDA is responsible for most of this countries economic and population growth. Spreading the wealth like you suggest in the form of building Motorways like the M9 just means we have a situation where we have an infrastructure deficit where needed (Dublin, Cork) and overkill where it isnt required (the West, the S/E).

Btw most(90%) of Irelands Heavy Industry is in the Cork Harbour area not Dublin.

BluntGuy

Bards wrote: »

please see http://www.nce.co.uk/international/features/2008/09/cross_country_runner.html

Cable Stay installation is due to get underway this week. Expect the Physical bridge to be complete by Late April/Early May 2009

Edit: 1st Cable Stay installed today

Well then, if that's the case, this could well be open by 2009!

The mainline is well progressed and the Granny (Grannagh) junction is coming along quite well.

My prediction was Q4 2009 if you check back through all the old threads.

The official prediction is Q2 2010.

Anyway, I can't wait to see this bridge transform Waterford city. Already, seeing such an iconic structure evolve over the last year and a half has been incredible. I don't think there as many road projects that will have as much positive impact as this one. Forget the M9 for the moment. THIS, in my honest opinion, is money well spent.

Except of course for the nasty toll plaza... :mad:

road_high

Guess they are going to open the M9 and Waterford bypass at the same time, which makes sense I suppose.

BluntGuy

The Waterford Bypass will open in 2009, I'm sure.

However, the big question remains, will it be motorway?

This official documentation seems to state so, but as far as I'm aware, the scheme doesn't have a motorway order attached:

Niall F

I read in another thread the Waterford by-pass will not be motorway.
On the original thread title, I believe the M9 is the right way to go. I don't use the current N9 myself a lot but the road certainly requires upgrading. For probably the very first time, a road is being built now that shouldn't require upgrading for a very long time. I think it will be of great benefit to the area. Planning for the future!! I wonder will it catch on? Doubt it

dowlingm

@johnnyc - How is LUAS as built a "waste of money" exactly? It could have been done better, sure, but it's one of the few public transport modes the public embraces fairly readily and demands expansions to.

johnnyc

ah luas in my mind was a waste of public money it cost way too much, if you think about it for the cost of the luas you would pay for a metro line which would be more high capacity at todays prices.

bk

johnnyc wrote: »

ah luas in my mind was a waste of public money it cost way too much, if you think about it for the cost of the luas you would pay for a metro line which would be more high capacity at todays prices.

The two Luas lines cost €800 million, it is being estimated that Metro North is going to cost €4 to 5 Billion. Big price difference, there was no way you could build a Metro line for just €800 million.

BTW the Green line can be upgraded to Metro line, it was designed for this from the start.

dowlingm

johnnyc - not saying this to be argumentative but the fact is that you get several times more LRT-km for the price than conventional subway. Even when you have to tunnel it, the lack of requirement for high floor platforms means LRT stations can be simpler - one entrance/exit can serve both directions and on the surface the segregation requirements are far less strict. I'm okay with Metro North but Metro West is much more suited to light rail.

LUAS was less expensive, expandable and reminded people that if ILDA and IE Human Resources wasn't allowed screw it up moving people by rail was still a good idea.

sk8board

The existing road from Kilkenny or Carlow to waterford, in particular from Paulstown, into Gowran, Dungarvan, Thomastown, Ballyhale, Mullinavat and Ferrybank is without doubt the worst and most dangerous piece of road linking two cities in the country (probably in western europe for that matter).

There is pretty much no opportunity to overtake for about 20 miles, irrespective of what you are stuck behind, or how slow its going.

For anyone travelling on it for their first time, those 2 sudden turns under the railway bridges (about a mile or two apart around Mullinavat) are enough to scare the bejesus out of the best of us.

Take one trip on this road, and then ask yourself if the M9 is a waste of money.

dowlingm

sk8board, I have driven the existing road and I agree with you that it is not fit for purpose.. However, that is not an argument for motorway, just a new road alignment. The road design capacity should then be a matter for traffic studies and forecasting, not a political/GAA jersey/he got one so I get one basis.

johnnyc

the luas was cheap - original cost from 280 to 860 million what great value. People are on about the GDA population increase can the area handle the increase no it cant. So the m9 motorways,will help to attract development outside of the GDA and will help the southeast to develop to its full potential.

sk8board

dowlingm wrote: »

sk8board, I have driven the existing road and I agree with you that it is not fit for purpose.. However, that is not an argument for motorway, just a new road alignment. The road design capacity should then be a matter for traffic studies and forecasting, not a political/GAA jersey/he got one so I get one basis.

I don't believe there is any way to re-align that particular piece of road. The geography of the road makes it completely impossible. There isn't even any room to just build a new road next to the existing one, nor room to widen the existing one; coupled with the way it winds its way along the steep hill-side between ballyhale and mullinavat.

Hence a new road was the only way.