M9? - Is it a waste of money?

Fighting Irish

Well the road from Carlow to Waterford is fooking piss poor, so ye it probably should be made better

Amtmann

mysterious wrote: »

Fact again is, TWO of the M9 schemes should of not been allowed to go ahead last year under the economic climate and for now give way to stalling all other projects because of this really stupid decision.

None of the Interurbans got TWO schemes started in one year, even in the 2005 -07 boom times.
Limerick for example: has only two schemes Portlaoise -Castletown and Nenagh to Limerick build contracts. It has taken 4 in a half years for the entire route to be completed up until 2010.

Point of information: the M8 had two schemes started in 2006, and two started in 2007.

mysterious

Zoney wrote: »

I'll yet again point out that the M9, like the other interurbans, was originally supposed to have been finished by 2006. That date should have been stuck to, as with inflation and the construction boom the way it was, prices were going up rapidly.

Again I will have to point out..
The M9 was not originally meant to be finished in 2006 when the original NDP was envisaged!

The Cork Limerick and galway was 2002 - 2006
Waterford N9 was for 2007 and it was a maybe...

Back in 2004 -05 the dail, were even debating whether or not to dual the N9!!

Now this will show how far and extreme things have gone.

Cullen as minister for transport drew all over the map.

If these routes had been finished by 2006, we would not be having this argument because Newlands and the M20 would be well underway.

Who is responsible? Well, who has been in power for a decade of boom times?

That paragraph is irrelevant, of course you could go back further and further bringing up these farce points.

Point of the matter. This kinda of careless political spending towards examples like the M9 to be built in two years at the suspension of other projects.

Is not acceptable. The low traffic section SHOULD NOT of got priority over the Newlands cross or N18, N20 schemes. When two of the M9 schemes went ahead.....

mysterious

Furet wrote: »

Point of information: the M8 had two schemes started in 2006, and two started in 2007.

Could you give me the exact examples.
If so I do not agree with it. Considering the N7 limerick route had no project starting for many years! and the Limerick section (the main route):D

If the logic and situation applied to the Limerick N7 been far shorter than the Galway and Cork routes, would have been completed in 2007 if the N7 had two schemes starting in the one year.


But my pont again, projects should be prioritised and listed in order of needs and most necessary at the time. For example (and has happened) a bypass proposed for ballynowhere in Donegal, and the bypass goes ahead etc. Opens, ribbons cut. great.

But Adare on a national route crying for a bypass for the last 20 years, suffers tailbacks of 3 miles on evening at times. Adare ignored again.

Someone explain to me, is this example not simalar to the Newlands cross over the M9 dilemma?

I don't want this political white elephant planning going forward. Where we get into these chaos and quarrels of the running of country, chaos on these threads, and have our finances also running into chaos, for us to complain again about!!!

Mr. Cullen your are indeed an idiot!:mad::mad:

Lennoxschips

Give these people a week commuting between Waterford & Kilkenny on the current "road" and see then what they think about the M9..

That's a straw man argument. Of course the existing N9 needed to be upgraded. The question is whether they should be replaced wholesale with an M9 or upgraded to top-quality single carriageway.

At first, the government opted to upgrade the N9 to top-quality single carriageway, with substantial bits of it having upgraded in during the past decade. (like this) Then, after these bits had already been built, they are already being made obsolete because the government changed their minds and built an M9 instead.

So whatever way you look at it, either pro or anti-motorway, the government's approach has been a waste of tax payer's money.

ipodrocker

is there is real point moaning about the timeline of projects when we all know by this time 2010 all the interurbans will be completed and most likely ahead of schedule as it the NRA's way except for the m50 of course!

Amtmann

mysterious wrote: »

Could you give me the exact examples.
If so I do not agree with it. Considering the N7 limerick route had no project starting for many years! and the Limerick section (the main route):D

Sure.

Cashel to Mitchelstown started May 2006; Cashel to Cullahill started October 2006.

Mitchelstown to Fermoy started December 2007; Cullahill to Portlaoise started June 2007 (although this is a PPP).

mysterious

ipodrocker wrote: »

is there is real point moaning about the timeline of projects when we all know by this time 2010 all the interurbans will be completed and most likely ahead of schedule as it the NRA's way except for the m50 of course!

It's not moaning.

I'm saying I can't agree with this chaos and bad planning.
Don't know what other's are moaning about.

But I see stupidity beyond belief.

We build are MIUs all by 2010................ Great.

But it's all going to cram into a newlands cross which already suffers chronic conjestion every single day. Because of this race. We have neglected infastructural projects throughout the country. For a race, and cram it into a corkscrew by Newlands. Does this not suggest the stupidity of this government. Put 3 motorways into newlands cross (not upgraded) by 2010

Or Newlands cross upgraded with 2 motorways and the other M9 waiting for funds. Which makes logical sense.

I will give you a clue, which will cause more to moan.

Two of the M9 schemes going ahead last year was absurd, while the suspension of the N18 and Newlands x were given. The N20 has not recieved attention for the last 15 years. Yet traffic levels are generally higher than that of the N9.

Where is the logic here?

My point is this, this transport agenda was only to give fianna fail a cheer for completing the MIUs by 2010, (fours years late) and a much needed t boost to their all time low in approval ratings.

Given this agenda, which is farce does not in any way allow for them to spend recklessly on top of that.

It's about timing and planning and proceeding with the plan accordingly. Not picking routes on a spanking map, to which the people will likely see oh they did this, picking and choosing some important and not so important roads, make it look like they are actually doing something etc oh fantastic, etc.....



This is what irratates the bejesus out of me. I would be happy if they just did the tranport agenda by the proper NDP they planned and just stick with it and not theirs!

I'm not at all fooled as to why the M9 went ahead the way it did.

mysterious

Furet wrote: »

Sure.

Cashel to Mitchelstown started May 2006; Cashel to Cullahill started October 2006.

Mitchelstown to Fermoy started December 2007; Cullahill to Portlaoise started June 2007 (although this is a PPP).

But two schemes didn't start at the same time.

Portlaoise Cullahill was meant to start in 2005 originally, so that not relevant to your point, it was delayed for a long time. And as you said it's a PPP and does not come out of our pockets or get involved with the schemes of which are not PPPs, which is what we are discussing. Bear in mind this Portaoise Castletown/Cullohil is also tied to the Limerick route. This section of M7/M8 s among the most vital and not some low 6k a day road. This shouln't be used as an example in which your comparing to the Waterford example I pointed out.


I didn't agree with the 2 N8 schemes going ahead either. But to be fair the N8 is a far longer and busier route than the N9. It connects a far larger city to Dublin. It had to be built sooner, thus there are many bottlenecks on the N8 which were horrendus, Bear in mind.

Carawaystick

ipodrocker wrote: »

is there is real point moaning about the timeline of projects when we all know by this time 2010 all the interurbans will be completed and most likely ahead of schedule as it the NRA's way except for the m50 of course!

The N20 won't be done by 2010, and that's an interurban route. don't believe the untruths/misinformation spouted by the nra

L1011

Carawaystick wrote: »

The N20 won't be done by 2010, and that's an interurban route. don't believe the untruths/misinformation spouted by the nra

Erm, 'untruths/misinformation' is just the definition of the terms they've used. The NRA defined the concept of 'major interurban route' and the N20 wasn't one of them. Theres no untruth there.

BluntGuy

Well IMO an MIU is a road that links two major-urban centres, and by Irish standards, Limerick and Cork are two such centres, therefore the M20 is an MUI.

However, the NRA's definition is any road that links Dublin to another major urban centre, so in that respect, they aren't lying.

merlante

invincibleirish wrote: »

This is incomprehensible, essentially you argue for infrastructure provision on the basis of want over need. You make out Waterford and the S/E is some kind of major urban area, it isnt. The M9 wont make it so either.

Road usage statistics, while you may not like them for obvious reasons, are a reliable indicator of how many people are actually going to use the new road. parts of the N9 have 6k AADT, meaning that with the advent of the M9, whole sections of the M9 will have tiny traffic figures.

Lets be generous and assume that traffic increases by 25% on opening of the M9, sections will still struggle to even break into 5 figure AADTs, madness! there are literally dozens of projects on the NRAs to do list which will replace/upgrade roads which carry well in excess of what a lot of the N/M9 carries.

It's really very easy to understand. You have nearly half a million people living in the south east, at least half of whom will be served by the M9. In other regions, such as the west, the population is lower, and live further away from the road on average. Population forms the basis of current and future need. Measuring the traffic on sections of roads of varying quality nationally, while interesting, is not the most reliable way of gauging future traffic on a brand new road.

Traffic volumes are a function of road quality, size and the existence of alternative routes, as well as other factors such as population and economic activity. It is simply self-serving to suggest that measuring current road traffic volumes on a bad road will give anything other an indicator (one of many potential indicators) of expected traffic volumes on a high quality road.

Some people on here also seem to forget that we live in a democratic country, where individuals have a right to expect a level of service from the state comensurate with the population of the local area and local region. Neither more or less is equitable.

Waterford is, and always has been, one of the state's major cities. Outside of the GDA, there is no town even half as large as Waterford (the smallest city), which underlies exactly how critical the regional cities of Cork, Limerick, Galway and Waterford are to their respective regions (and to Ireland's chances of building a spatially balanced country) regardless of how much smaller they are than Dublin. Why Waterford should be singled out as being underdeserving of a motorway is mystifying, until you consider certain political realities and convenient biases.

It is equally mystifying that Galway and the west would be automatically considering to need a motorway, whereas Waterford and the south east are accused of pork barrel politics for expecting the same. The south east is a more populous, and more densely populated region than the west, and I would imagine that the population within 15-20 miles of Waterford would be about the same as Galway's catchment, considering the proximity of biggish towns, such as Tramore, New Ross and Carrick-On-Suir. With the exception of Galway city, there are no centres of any significance within its catchment, or very few anywhere else in the region for that matter.

The fact of the matter is, due to years of electoral fraud -- the watchword for all the county's ills at the moment -- it is considered acceptable to invest in Galway and convenient to neglect Waterford in recent years, despite Waterford having been the larger urban area within the lifetimes of most people on here. Some posters would be better served by taking a look at the CSO website rather than spluttering indignantly when others make reasonable points that just happen to brush up against a few of their fondly held biases.

invincibleirish

merlante wrote: »

It's really very easy to understand. You have nearly half a million people living in the south east, at least half of whom will be served by the M9. In other regions, such as the west, the population is lower, and live further away from the road on average. Population forms the basis of current and future need. Measuring the traffic on sections of roads of varying quality nationally, while interesting, is not the most reliable way of gauging future traffic on a brand new road.

I'm not sure what you are trying to say here, all i can ascertain is that you are massaging population figures to justify the M9. It would be fair enough if the half a million people you cite were in one or several areas served by the M9, but really as already acknowledged, the M9 serves 3 urban areas- Waterford, Carlow & Kilkenny, population - 100k(ish). Just adding up counties populations that are in the S/E to justify the M9 is simplistic.

merlante wrote: »

Traffic volumes are a function of road quality, size and the existence of alternative routes, as well as other factors such as population and economic activity. It is simply self-serving to suggest that measuring current road traffic volumes on a bad road will give anything other an indicator (one of many potential indicators) of expected traffic volumes on a high quality road.

OK then you tell me then on what criteria a new motorway should be built?where is all the extra traffic going to come from that will make the M9 worthwhile? i have no doubt the M9 will be busy immediately outside Waterford, but the only way extra traffic will occur in the quieter sections will be if urban sprawl occurs and/or if long distance traffic massively increases.

merlante wrote: »

Some people on here also seem to forget that we live in a democratic country, where individuals have a right to expect a level of service from the state comensurate with the population of the local area and local region. Neither more or less is equitable.

You are right we live in a democratic country, but why is it that resources allocated to the roads programme are spent in a way that is more befitting a banana republic?

merlante wrote: »

Waterford is, and always has been, one of the state's major cities. Outside of the GDA, there is no town even half as large as Waterford (the smallest city), which underlies exactly how critical the regional cities of Cork, Limerick, Galway and Waterford are to their respective regions (and to Ireland's chances of building a spatially balanced country) regardless of how much smaller they are than Dublin. Why Waterford should be singled out as being underdeserving of a motorway is mystifying, until you consider certain political realities and convenient biases .

Waterford has 50k. It's not even a city in reality no matter how old or important you deem it to be. A 'spatially balanced country' would entail concentrating spending in 1 or 2 areas to develop critical mass - if this came to pass neither of those areas would be Waterford.

merlante wrote: »

It is equally mystifying that Galway and the west would be automatically considering to need a motorway, whereas Waterford and the south east are accused of pork barrel politics for expecting the same. The south east is a more populous, and more densely populated region than the west, and I would imagine that the population within 15-20 miles of Waterford would be about the same as Galway's catchment, considering the proximity of biggish towns, such as Tramore, New Ross and Carrick-On-Suir. With the exception of Galway city, there are no centres of any significance within its catchment, or very few anywhere else in the region for that matter.

You make a better point then perhaps you might realise, why are we building Motorways to what are essentially mid size towns?.

merlante wrote: »

The fact of the matter is, due to years of electoral fraud -- the watchword for all the county's ills at the moment -- it is considered acceptable to invest in Galway and convenient to neglect Waterford in recent years, despite Waterford having been the larger urban area within the lifetimes of most people on here. Some posters would be better served by taking a look at the CSO website rather than spluttering indignantly when others make reasonable points that just happen to brush up against a few of their fondly held biases.

Interesting take on things- because "having been the larger urban area(then Galway) within the lifetimes of most people on here" - then thats a good argument for building the M9? Care to remind me of my fondly held biases? And oh what electoral fraud? were E-Voting machines invovled?

Carawaystick

MYOB wrote: »

Erm, 'untruths/misinformation' is just the definition of the terms they've used. The NRA defined the concept of 'major interurban route' and the N20 wasn't one of them. Theres no untruth there.

The N20 is a Major interurban route. It links the second and third largest cities in the state. Just because the NRA speak some la la land version of english or refuse to use words as their usual meaning, does not make it right. I could define the phrase "fine forward thinking bunch of chaps" to mean the Govt. Doesn't make it true.
If the NRA decided to call the cycle track on the N1, a motorway (because that is their definition of the concept) would you believe them?

There is no reasonable alternative of a rail route between Limerick and Cork unlike the N1/N6/N7/N8/N9 (and soon the N18) routes.

All that I think as so much of the N9 was poor, north of Carlow and Thomastown, among some examples, and as the entire Moone/Timolin wide section of the road was just not wide enough to make Dual Carriageway..... then any upgrades of these poor sections should have been Dual Carriageway / Motorway

All of the road being upgraded, I'm not so sure of. If the N11 was upgraded to Enniscorthy and then the N30 to ross, and assuming the Atlantic Corridor route of the N25 was upgraded, there would have been less road to build from Clogh to Waterford than from Kilcullen to Waterford.

However these two primary routes are (N30/25/11 vs N9) are far enough apart and separated by mountains most of the route compared to the M1,N2,M3 that I'd easily prefer a M9 than any improvement to the N2 north of Ashbourne, while the <8 km of N33 separates the N2 from the M1

BluntGuy

Well the NRA chose to define MUI in this case as roads linking Dublin to other major towns and cities. They stated that the five MUIs will be complete by 2010, and regardless of whether you disagree or agree with their choice of routes, are aware of the fact they were originally planned for 2006, or have a different (read: correct) concept of what an MUI actually is, they certainly didn't lie in that respect to be fair.

They will have "their" MUIs done by 2010.

BluntGuy

Carawaystick wrote: »

All that I think as so much of the N9 was poor, north of Carlow and Thomastown, among some examples, and as the entire Moone/Timolin wide section of the road was just not wide enough to make Dual Carriageway..... then any upgrades of these poor sections should have been Dual Carriageway / Motorway

Moone/Timolin-bypass could've easily been 2+2 DC.

But I disagree with 2+2 greenfield projects... waste of time. If you're going greenfield, build a proper DC. I don't care if it has the at-grade roundabouts or LILOs, but you may as well put the hard shoulder there.

Carawaystick

BluntGuy wrote: »

Well the NRA chose to define MUI in this case as roads linking Dublin to other major towns and cities. They stated that the five MUIs will be complete by 2010, and regardless of whether you disagree or agree with their choice of routes, are aware of the fact they were originally planned for 2006, or have a different (read: correct) concept of what an MUI actually is, they certainly didn't lie in that respect to be fair.

They will have "their" MUIs done by 2010.

What two major towns or cities does the M50 link?
Or even the N1? Jonesboro or Carrickcarnan? or even Newry (tongue in cheek)

If the nra honestly believe main interurban route only means what they define it to mean, then we can add deluded to all the other nice adjectives about them.

this is waay off topic now. I'll say no more on it.

Anyway I saw some analysis regarding the width of the bridge on the moone/timolin section and it would not have been wide enough for the standard of dual carriageway in vogue at the time. (pre 2by2 )
http://n9-n10kilcullen-waterford.ie/route-selection/2-4moone-timolin.htm

a bit wishy washy excuse.

anyway if a dual carriageway is to be built to Dublin from Waterford, and assuming there is no other way to prevent private accesses opening without it being motorwayed, then motorway it. but really the normal motorway extras should be included - HQDC, sos phones etc.

Cool Mo D

The M50 is not an MIU. It is the Dublin orbital motorway.

And the N1 is the part of the link between Dublin and Belfast that the NRA has responsibility for - it is their part of the road link between the two (by far!) biggest cities in Ireland. Does that clear things up for you?

BluntGuy

Carawaystick wrote: »

Anyway if a dual carriageway is to be built to Dublin from Waterford, and assuming there is no other way to prevent private accesses opening without it being motorwayed, then motorway it. but really the normal motorway extras should be included - HQDC, sos phones etc.

Yes. As the N9 upgrade is being built as DC then it is correct to have motorway restrictions on it.

As for the "extras"... I see no service stations, advanced lighting and emergency telephones on the recently redesignated M6, M8 and M9 schemes. However, since they were originally envisiged as HQDC, I can excuse that.

But there is no excuse for the M8 Cullahill-Cashel, the M9 Carlow-Kilcullen or any other redesignated scheme to open without them...

Carawaystick

Cool Mo D wrote: »

The M50 is not an MIU. It is the Dublin orbital motorway.

And the N1 is the part of the link between Dublin and Belfast that the NRA has responsibility for - it is their part of the road link between the two (by far!) biggest cities in Ireland. Does that clear things up for you?

I was being facetious about the N/M1 (read between the parenthesis)

but seriously
look up http://www.nra.ie:80/mapping/index.jsp
For route number pick 50 , click submit
and see what the legend to the transport 21 logo means?

it's designed not to be directly linkable

road_high

Just down around south Kilkenny today and checking out the M9 (sorry no pics)...
It seems to me progress has been pretty slow for the past year, really just trundling along with no apparent urgency. It started in Feb 2007 and now almost Dec 2008 (duh!)..........compare with the Carlow bypass which started in May/April 2006 and opened end of May 2008.

So at that rate it should open by next Feb or March, but from what I can see, and I'm no expert, that seems fairly unlikely. While large stretches of the road surface are now laid/being laid there appears to be some major areas of work still undone, particularly around the Mullinavat junction. And a major flyover over the existing N9 just north of Waterford at Kearns pub seems to be only starting to be built. I know the contract says Q3 2009.
Anybody else have any other info as to when it might perhaps open???

fricatus

Yeah, they also seem to be putting in a viaduct between the new Newrath roundabout and the new M25 junction (running parallel to that road where the level crossing is). Still though, they have to build it over a railway line and a stream, so it might still take some time. I couldn't see it being finished by March.

Someone (was it Bards?) mentioned August/September, I think.

Bards

fricatus wrote: »

Yeah, they also seem to be putting in a viaduct between the new Newrath roundabout and the new M25 junction (running parallel to that road where the level crossing is). Still though, they have to build it over a railway line and a stream, so it might still take some time. I couldn't see it being finished by March.

Someone (was it Bards?) mentioned August/September, I think.

Yep it sure was, Latest info I have is that the M25 Wateford City Bypass and the M9 Waterford Knocktopher will be opened in and around the same time (August/September 2009)

johnnyc

mike65 wrote: »

Your logic means Dublin/Pale will eat Ireland.

Mike

Mike i agree with your comment, a lot of dublin boards members are on about economics and waste of money they can speak if we talk about waste of money lets talk about the luas, m50 toll bridge etc. There should be a distribution of wealth spread around the country for example most heavy industry should be taken out of dublin as the city will run out of water by 2016 anyway.. The motorway projects in my opinion are the best way to attract development into out small cities cork,waterford,limerick,galway, kilkenny and so on. In the long run a modern country like ours requires proper development

BluntGuy

Bards wrote: »

Yep it sure was, Latest info I have is that the M25 Wateford City Bypass and the M9 Waterford Knocktopher will be opened in and around the same time (August/September 2009)

Yes, that is why I have heard too. But I would not be so sure about that...

I have my doubts as to whether the bridge will be open by September next year. Yes, it certainly is progressing well, and the mainline is going very well also, with many sections ready to be paved, but September does seem a bit unrealistic.

Bards

BluntGuy wrote: »

Yes, that is why I have heard too. But I would not be so sure about that...

I have my doubts as to whether the bridge will be open by September next year. Yes, it certainly is progressing well, and the mainline is going very well also, with many sections ready to be paved, but September does seem a bit unrealistic.

please see http://www.nce.co.uk/international/features/2008/09/cross_country_runner.html

Cable Stay installation is due to get underway this week. Expect the Physical bridge to be complete by Late April/Early May 2009

Edit: 1st Cable Stay installed today

invincibleirish

johnnyc wrote: »

Mike i agree with your comment, a lot of dublin boards members are on about economics and waste of money they can speak if we talk about waste of money lets talk about the luas, m50 toll bridge etc. There should be a distribution of wealth spread around the country for example most heavy industry should be taken out of dublin as the city will run out of water by 2016 anyway.. The motorway projects in my opinion are the best way to attract development into out small cities cork,waterford,limerick,galway, kilkenny and so on. In the long run a modern country like ours requires proper development

His comment is actually out of date by about 15 years:). the GDA is responsible for most of this countries economic and population growth. Spreading the wealth like you suggest in the form of building Motorways like the M9 just means we have a situation where we have an infrastructure deficit where needed (Dublin, Cork) and overkill where it isnt required (the West, the S/E).

Btw most(90%) of Irelands Heavy Industry is in the Cork Harbour area not Dublin.

BluntGuy

Bards wrote: »

please see http://www.nce.co.uk/international/features/2008/09/cross_country_runner.html

Cable Stay installation is due to get underway this week. Expect the Physical bridge to be complete by Late April/Early May 2009

Edit: 1st Cable Stay installed today

Well then, if that's the case, this could well be open by 2009!

The mainline is well progressed and the Granny (Grannagh) junction is coming along quite well.

My prediction was Q4 2009 if you check back through all the old threads.

The official prediction is Q2 2010.

Anyway, I can't wait to see this bridge transform Waterford city. Already, seeing such an iconic structure evolve over the last year and a half has been incredible. I don't think there as many road projects that will have as much positive impact as this one. Forget the M9 for the moment. THIS, in my honest opinion, is money well spent.

Except of course for the nasty toll plaza... :mad:

road_high

Guess they are going to open the M9 and Waterford bypass at the same time, which makes sense I suppose.