M9? - Is it a waste of money?

BluntGuy

Bards wrote: »

All those who are against it are arguing the AADT figures. why isn;t there a thread encompassing all the other MIU's whether or not they should have been built and is it a waste of money???

Or change the title of the Thread. to "M9 - Is it value for Money?" this would be a fairer and more positive title

BTW when is the Poll going to Close?

The thread title is fair. It doesn't say "The M9. A waste of money", it asks the question "is it a waste of money?". The original intend of this thread was to move the discussion from another thread.

It's not an anti-S/E thing. Have you not noticed my other thread: "The M20 - is it really neccessary?". People have not been complaining that that's unfair. I don't this thread is unfair either.

And why should the poll close? I see no valid reason for that.

Bards

Fact is close on 60% of this poll agree that the M9 was NOT a waste of money = case closed

AADT figures are in line with the other MIU's so why pick on the M9?

invincibleirish

Bards wrote: »

AADT figures are in line with the other MIU's so why pick on the M9?

M9 represents wasteful government spending?

An example of parish pump politics in play?

poor national planning?

If you want to use AADT figures to justify your argument then there are a huge number of projects which arent being funded which are more worthy of being developed then the M9.

Bards

invincibleirish wrote: »

M9 represents wasteful government spending?

An example of parish pump politics in play?

poor national planning?

If you want to use AADT figures to justify your argument then there are a huge number of projects which arent being funded which are more worthy of being developed then the M9.

All in YOUR opinion. Fact is Waterford is one of five oficial Cities of this Republic and all Cities are being linked by Motorway to our Capital

As I have said before If you have to resort to politics and cheap political shots then you have LOST the argument.

It is very good planning to have the central road scheme thhrough the heart of the S.E region linking the principal population centres in said region (to each other and Dublin) being of Motoray/HQDC standard.

invincibleirish

Bards wrote: »

All in YOUR opinion. Fact is Waterford is one of five oficial Cities of this Republic and all Cities are being linked by Motorway to our Capital

As I have said before If you have to resort to politics and cheap political shots then you have LOST the argument.

It is very good planning to have the central road scheme thhrough the heart of the S.E region linking the principal population centres in said region (to each other and Dublin) being of Motoray/HQDC standard.

Cheap political shots? hardly, good planning to duplicate motorways?, not really, Waterford should have a complete Interurban ahead of other worthy projects just because other 'oficial' cities get one? tenuous logic to say the least.

sk8board

invincibleirish wrote: »

Cheap political shots? hardly, good planning to duplicate motorways?, not really, Waterford should have a complete Interurban ahead of other worthy projects just because other 'oficial' cities get one? tenuous logic to say the least.

you really do have a hard-on for the M9 don't you?! :rolleyes:

All you arguments seem to center on the usual parish politics 'its all a conspiracy' nonsense that usually results in nothing every getting done.

do us all a favour; when the M9 gets finished, use the old road instead as you own little protest. Although by the sounds of it that won't be an issue, cause I'm not sure you've ever had to travel on it.

capital spending is about creating a platform for econmic progression. For that reason alone, to suggest that the M9 is not required for the southeast is pure and utter fallacy.

dowlingm

Bards

"City" is a meaningless designation. What matters is where people live and where they and their goods are travelling. Look at places like Tallaght which on their own would be bigger than Waterford and left for decades with inadequate services and no dedicated city bureaucrats and TDs to fight their corner for lack of an English king granting a charter.

What's going to happen, in my view, is the M9 will be built and Waterford folks are going to wonder why they are still a relative backwater. The answer is not width of tarmac, but the willingness of Kilkenny, Wexford, Waterford City and Waterford County to work together. The GAA jersey approach to urban development is holding Waterford (and Limerick) back, again because of lines drawn on a map a hundred years and more ago.

As pointed out previously, there was absolutely a need to improve the existing road as it stood because some of the stretches were narrow and some downright dangerous given the traffic on them - but that doesn't justify on its own a jump to motorway status.

Bards

dowlingm wrote: »

Bards

"City" is a meaningless designation. What matters is where people live and where they and their goods are travelling. Look at places like Tallaght which on their own would be bigger than Waterford and left for decades with inadequate services and no dedicated city bureaucrats and TDs to fight their corner for lack of an English king granting a charter.

What's going to happen, in my view, is the M9 will be built and Waterford folks are going to wonder why they are still a relative backwater. The answer is not width of tarmac, but the willingness of Kilkenny, Wexford, Waterford City and Waterford County to work together. The GAA jersey approach to urban development is holding Waterford (and Limerick) back, again because of lines drawn on a map a hundred years and more ago.

As pointed out previously, there was absolutely a need to improve the existing road as it stood because some of the stretches were narrow and some downright dangerous given the traffic on them - but that doesn't justify on its own a jump to motorway status.

AADT on the M9 is the same as the other MIU's, what's good for the goose is good for the gander, if in your humble opinion the M9 is not needed then the same goes for the other MIU's (M6,M7 & M8)

invincibleirish

sk8board wrote: »

you really do have a hard-on for the M9 don't you?! :rolleyes:

All you arguments seem to center on the usual parish politics 'its all a conspiracy' nonsense that usually results in nothing every getting done.

do us all a favour; when the M9 gets finished, use the old road instead as you own little protest. Although by the sounds of it that won't be an issue, cause I'm not sure you've ever had to travel on it.

capital spending is about creating a platform for econmic progression. For that reason alone, to suggest that the M9 is not required for the southeast is pure and utter fallacy.

:rolleyes:

BluntGuy

sk8board wrote: »

Capital spending is about creating a platform for econmic progression. For that reason alone, to suggest that the M9 is not required for the southeast is pure and utter fallacy.

The problem with this rationale though, is it could be used to justify any expenditure regardless of how beneficial it is.

invincibleirish

Bards wrote: »

AADT on the M9 is the same as the other MIU's, what's good for the goose is good for the gander, if in your humble opinion the M9 is not needed then the same goes for the other MIU's (M6,M7 & M8)

Straw man argument, What you really mean is that because Cork/Limerick/Galway get a Motorway then Waterford has to have one too, irrespective of want or need, classic gombeen Ireland in play.

Btw the M8 has 2 tolls, ditto the M4/6, and 1 toll on the M7 & M1, the M9 has none, only in Ireland could such madness occur!.

BluntGuy

The poll result is quite interesting:

Roughly 87% people realise that there is a major problem with the M9 and it needs to be improved.

Then there is a roughly 60% chunk that think the M9 was perfectly justified and was right to go ahead as it did.

There is a 28% of people that think it shouldn't have gone ahead as motorway or priority should've been given to other schemes. I presume Newlands Cross would be the one most people would've gone for.

8% of us think it's a complete waste of money and the other chunk of us (including myself) are impartial.

Just to make my viewpoint clear:

Well, first of all, I'm a road enthusiast, so I guess my viewpoint is kinda slanted.

Second, I think ONE of the M9 schemes should've gone ahead this year, and that the scheme should've been the southern M9 scheme (the worst parts of the road). The other money I think should have gone into Newlands Cross, an SRR upgrade or filling in the missing gap in the N11.

Whether or not the road should've been motorway is an issue I'm not sure of. For the average AADT, I think top-quality single carriageway with provision to be widened, along with DC sections for the Waterford-Knocktopher section and Carlow Bypass would have sufficed. I wouldn't have gone with 2+2. Big waste of money through greenfield sites, you'll nearly as easily get a "proper" DC in there.

On the other hand however, if the section did end up like the Nenagh bypass, I would be the one criticising the government's short-sightedness.

As for capacity, motorway has a capacity of 52,000 AADT. Single Carriageway, the top quality stuff, can have a capacity from 9000 - 15,000. 2+1 is around 19,000 AFAIK. 2+2 comes in around 25,000 methinks (not sure, I'll have to check it out again).

The problem with capacity in Ireland, is that hardly any of our motorways are used to their fullest extent. Motorways are generally built for safety in Ireland and because the old roads are so poor.

Anyway, a question for our S-E posters (this isn't meant to be mean or anything, it's just a question):

Do you think the M9 should have a toll?

L1011

invincibleirish wrote: »

Straw man argument, What you really mean is that because Cork/Limerick/Galway get a Motorway then Waterford has to have one too, irrespective of want or need, classic gombeen Ireland in play.

Btw the M8 has 2 tolls, ditto the M4/6, M1 and 1 toll on the M7, the M9 has none, only in Ireland could such madness occur!.

1 toll on the M1...

Bards

Q. for Cork Boardsies. do you think it is fair that the Jack Lynch Tunnel isn't tolled when other Bypasses are tolled (Limerick, Dublin, Waterford)

BluntGuy

Bards wrote: »

Q. for Cork Boardsies. do you think it is fair that the Jack Lynch Tunnel isn't tolled when other Bypasses are tolled (Limerick, Dublin, Waterford)

Yes I do, although that doesn't mean I agree with the tolls on the other bypasses.

The Jack Lynch tunnel is one of the only viable ways to cross the river. Had it been tolled, people would've just gone back into the city centre defeating the purpose of the project.

The West Link toll is an abomination and should have been abolished long ago...

The Waterford Bypass ideally shouldn't be tolled either, but in the circumstances, it was unavoidable. Limerick Tunnel, ditto.

Anyway, my question to you and the other S-E posters was: "do you think the M9 should be tolled?"

Specific bypass projects are different to long stretches of inter-urban motorway.

invincibleirish

Bards wrote: »

Q. for Cork Boardsies. do you think it is fair that the Jack Lynch Tunnel isn't tolled when other Bypasses are tolled (Limerick, Dublin, Waterford)

JLT tunnel when initially proposed back in the day was due to be tolled to pay for construction.

There were proposals put forward by current Government i think in 2002/3 to toll key infrastructure already in place inc. the JLT. These proposals failed.

Problem was as the EU paid 65%(i think) of construction costs and they objected.

Whats the relation to the topic at hand again?

BTW its only the Limerick tunnel which is tolled. the Limerick SRR is a fine piece of free road.

BluntGuy wrote: »

The Waterford Bypass ideally shouldn't be tolled either, but in the circumstances, it was unavoidable. Limerick Tunnel, ditto.

I made this point at another point in this thread, it makes no sense to build a free M9 when the Citys bypass will be tolled other then to give a license to print money to a construction 'consortium'. both roads truly represent all that is negative about this Govs way of doing things.

I would imagine the M9s AADTs will remain static in the medium term, but the N25 bypass will no doubt be utilized by the local Co.Cos planning departments to make them some money through large scale rezonings for shopping centres and commuterville estates and traffic will increase: more toll money.

BluntGuy

invincibleirish wrote: »

I would imagine the M9s AADTs will remain static in the medium term, but the N25 bypass will no doubt be utilized by the local Co.Cos planning departments to make them some money through large scale rezonings for shopping centres and commuterville estates and traffic will increase: more toll money.

Without wishing to de-rail this thread too much, I am really worried about what is going to happen with the N25 bypass.

The road was originally going to go ahead as motorway AFAIK, the official documentation states it, various concessionaires state it (Dragados have the scheme down as motorway, so did CRG before they changed their website). I e-mailed the NRA twice about this, and although they gave relatively concrete answers for the other questions, this one they deliberately avoid answering.

Their reasons are unconvincing. Tractors, cyclists, pedestrians etc. will most likely be banned from the bridge anyway, so what valid reason... sorry, motivation do the NRA and/or the council have for this?

Well, as far as I can see, it's exactly what you said. The Grannagh roundabouts positively scream "dump shopping centre here", dump crappy "business park here", "lifeless suburbs coming soon" to corrupt councillors. The NRA have informed me that they will not allow this to happen, but after Mahon Point, I really worry about this...

Getting back to the M9. Yes, I think the M9 should have a toll. It's only fair drivers from Waterford pay their share share for "their" (for lack of a better word) road just as Limerick, Cork and Galway drivers have to pay for "theirs". But it is S-E people's opinion I want on that...

E92

I'm all for Waterford having their Motorway - why shouldn't they?

I think any road linking any major population centres such as Dublin and Waterfor should be perfectly entitled to a Motorway. I accept we don't need it now per se, but undoubtedly there will come a time when we will decide we need to build a Motorway, a la the Cahir, Nenagh and Croom bypass and we will either do this by building another bypass(a la the Cahir bypass, so now we have 2 bypasses when we only ever needed one) or converting an existing one a la the Nenagh bypass and then when it is upgraded it will be to a poorer standard than the road it joins up with.

What I am against is the fact that there is going to be no toll on this road.

I don't think it is particularly fair on those people who are going to be using the Motorways linking Limerick, Cork, Galway Belfast even who will have to pay at least one toll, and 2 in the case of Cork and Galway, 2 also for Limerick if you decide to use the tunnel.

Ideally there would be no tolls of course, but the money has to come from somewhere, and I've absolutely no problem paying the €1.80 for the Fermoy toll. It's a price worth paying IMO.

OT but I also think the fact that the Waterford City bypass is not going to be a motorway is just plain wrong. It should of course by a full blown Motorway, especially as it will be built as a HQDC which is a Motorway in all but name.

We're going to have another Mahon Point on it. I just know that that is what is going to happen. The developers are up to their eyes with the present Government, so it's not exactly hard to figure out where this will go really...

Bards

E92 wrote: »

I'm all for Waterford having their Motorway - why shouldn't they?

I think any road linking any major population centres such as Dublin and Waterfor should be perfectly entitled to a Motorway. I accept we don't need it now per se, but undoubtedly there will come a time when we will decide we need to build a Motorway, a la the Cahir, Nenagh and Croom bypass and we will either do this by building another bypass(a la the Cahir bypass, so now we have 2 bypasses when we only ever needed one) or converting an existing one a la the Nenagh bypass and then when it is upgraded it will be to a poorer standard than the road it joins up with.

What I am against is the fact that there is going to be no toll on this road.

I don't think it is particularly fair on those people who are going to be using the Motorways linking Limerick, Cork, Galway Belfast even who will have to pay at least one toll, and 2 in the case of Cork and Galway, 2 also for Limerick if you decide to use the tunnel.

Ideally there would be no tolls of course, but the money has to come from somewhere, and I've absolutely no problem paying the €1.80 for the Fermoy toll. It's a price worth paying IMO.

OT but I also think the fact that the Waterford City bypass is not going to be a motorway is just plain wrong. It should of course by a full blown Motorway, especially as it will be built as a HQDC which is a Motorway in all but name.

We're going to have another Mahon Point on it. I just know that that is what is going to happen. The developers are up to their eyes with the present Government, so it's not exactly hard to figure out where this will go really...

There will be no toll on the M11 either. Should we ask Wexford/Wicklow drivers to pay their fare share too.

L1011

The M11 is, and always will be based on accesses, etc, being unlikely to be removed, a hodgepodge of low grade dualler and barely motorway though. The M9 is going to be full Type 1 motorway all the way, with a wee bit of wide median at the northern end.

invincibleirish

Bards wrote: »

There will be no toll on the M11 either. Should we ask Wexford/Wicklow drivers to pay their fare share too.

Maybe they should ask why the Gov. can give the go ahead to build a brand new 116km M9 but at the same time cant find the cash to build a 14km DC at Rathnew?

You keep talking about AADTs well the Arklow south AADTs look pretty high to me?.

You wouldnt even mind but isnt the grand plan to have the N11 dualled the whole way to Rosslare?

2 S/E Motorways: overkill surely? how much was it is the New Ross bypass? 400m? yikes.

BluntGuy

invincibleirish wrote: »

Maybe they should ask why the Gov. can give the go ahead to build a brand new 116km M9 but at the same time cant find the cash to built a 14km DC at Rathnew?

You keep talking about AADTs well the Arklow south AADTs look pretty high to me?.

You wouldnt even mind but isnt the grand plan to have the N11 dualled the whole way to Rosslare?

2 S/E Motorways: overkill surely? how much was it is the New Ross bypass? 400m? yikes.

The New Ross bypass, in whatever century it gets built, is apparently going to cost 1 billion euro and include a massive 900 m bridge.

invincibleirish

BluntGuy wrote: »

The New Ross bypass, in whatever century it gets built, is apparently going to cost 1 billion euro and include a massive 900 m bridge.

BluntGuy

invincibleirish wrote: »

Calm down Culken!

This project probably won't see the light of day for another 50 years.

mysterious

Bards wrote: »

Q. for Cork Boardsies. do you think it is fair that the Jack Lynch Tunnel isn't tolled when other Bypasses are tolled (Limerick, Dublin, Waterford)

It can't be tolled, it was co-financed by the EU mostly, if not completely.

Cork has two tolls already for the M8.
Limerick has one toll on the M7 but the Shunnel is tolled, so that would negate to two.

But Bard's you are hilarious. when someone states a fact you don't like, you state is as opinion..................... rofl

Your are laughable:rolleyes:

mysterious

invincibleirish wrote: »

Rofl:D
But sure lets abandon, the Dublin metro or even scrap and built the New ross bypass sure why not, like the fact is Waterfords is Irelands fifth city we are needy of it. WE NEEDs this aswell.................:rolleyes:

I'm surprised Bard's hasnt brought up a metro plan for wateferd yet, But we are so left out and we NEEED it now.

LMFAO.

fricatus

BluntGuy wrote: »

Getting back to the M9. Yes, I think the M9 should have a toll. It's only fair drivers from Waterford pay their share share for "their" (for lack of a better word) road just as Limerick, Cork and Galway drivers have to pay for "theirs". But it is S-E people's opinion I want on that...

First off, we shouldn't be paying tolls at all - why disincentivise people from using newer, better and safer roads? It's stupid! Someone said here recently that 1.25c on the litre of petrol or diesel would compensate for the removal of tolls. Why doesn't the government just do that?

But we know they won't listen to sense, so here's my opinion taking the real-world situation into account...

As regards the M9, I would have no problem paying a toll on it since I only travel to Dublin around 4 or 5 times a year. What I do object to is the toll on the new N25 bridge in Waterford. Anyone commuting into Waterford from south KK/WX/TS will have the "choice" of either paying a toll or clogging up the city centre, which is ridiculous.

Ditto for the Limerick tunnel, which I believe will be tolled. (shakes head in exasperation)

I think the fact that Waterford motorists will be charged for using the second bridge (which they will do much more often than travel to Dublin) more than makes up for the lack of a toll on the M9.

Would people in Cork prefer to pay their tolls on the M8 or on the Jack Lynch Tunnel? Something tells me I know the answer to that question...

Bards

BluntGuy wrote: »

The New Ross bypass, in whatever century it gets built, is apparently going to cost 1 billion euro and include a massive 900 m bridge.

And where may I ask did you get these figures from? Did you know that it is going to be built as a PPP?

I have no interest for a Metro for Waterford, but I guaruntee you if Dublin do get their Metro, how long before the Langers in Lee-Side start complaining about their lack of Metro?

The Cork Political Lobby puts the rest of the country to shame


Back on the M9. It is being built with mixture of EU & exchequer money so it can't be tolled aparantly :rolleyes:

Amtmann

Bards wrote: »

I have no interest for a Metro for Waterford, but I guaruntee you if Dublin do get their Metro, how long before the Langers in Lee-Side start complaining about their lack of Metro?

As a naturalised Leeside Langer let me assure you that no one in Cork believes a metro will ever be - or should ever be - constructed for this city.

jank

Bards wrote: »

And where may I ask did you get these figures from? Did you know that it is going to be built as a PPP?

I have no interest for a Metro for Waterford, but I guaruntee you if Dublin do get their Metro, how long before the Langers in Lee-Side start complaining about their lack of Metro?

The Cork Political Lobby puts the rest of the country to shame


Back on the M9. It is being built with mixture of EU & exchequer money so it can't be tolled aparantly :rolleyes:

Get over yourself mister!